106 replies to this topic

[Green Goblin]

In my desire to get Ferguson Missouri stuff outta my head, I stumbled headfirst into this lovely talking piece and ask for an honest discussion on the matter. 

 

I'm gonna try and lay this out with sources as level-headed as possible. 

So, Zoe Quinn is an indie developer who worked on a game called "Depression Quest" on Steam (I haven't played it, but it was released for free when it was found out that Robin Williams' death was a suicide.  And with a name like that, thanks but I'm good).  She got a bit of attention last year when she claimed to have been hacked by a website called Wizardchan for being a woman in game development and a feminist.

 

http://www.escapistm...bmission-Update

 

People said that Wizardchan was bad and gave Zoe and her team the pat on the back for sticking to it or whatever and that was pretty much that.  No one bothered to look any further.

Then this came out
http://thezoepost.wordpress.com/

 

There's a TL:DR version there, but I'll sum it up too. 

The guy is Eron Gjoni, Zoe Quinn's ex-boyfriend.  And in this very long post, he basically airs out his grievances with the relationship, detailing Zoe Quinn as she cheated on him with no less than 3 individuals while they were together (and 2 guys when they were on a break.  She claimed to have not been with anyone during the break and encouraged him to not be with anyone either.  Not technically cheating, but still pretty shitty).  He has Facebook logs that fully document the conversation in which he confronts her (along with video of him showing his facebook for verification) and no party has come out and declared his information false, so it's all but assumed that what he has put out there is 100% accurate. She lies about it, trying to dodge and failing every time.  It's during all of this that 2 of the names of the other men come out. 

One is Nathan Grayson (a writer for kotaku.com, who had previously reported on the game, briefly), whom she spent an entire week with, told Eron that 3 others were there with them and basically dodged him to be with.

 

The other is Joshua Boggs, her boss.  Her married boss, whom she was planning on moving in with before Eron called her on it.

When the information hit the internet, a bunch of people came to the conclusion that this shows (to a small degree) a level of corruption and nepotism in the communication between game developers and game journalists.  The allegations that she slept with people to make her way to the top has been thrown out, and she has been given the new (admittedly, kinda funny) nickname:  Five Guys Burgers and Fries. 
http://www.gamerhead...-press-for-sex/

 

 

 

During this time, she claims that her Twitter has been hacked by 4chan's video game section, /v/.  Several posts leave out a phone number and an announcement of /v/'s hacking. 
http://www.dailydot....ng-sex-scandal/

 

Phil Fish jumps to her defense and rants on his own Twitter, This morning, it comes out that Fish's Twitter has also been hacked, alongside his server. 

http://www.dailydot....e-of-zoe-quinn/

 

 

Now for my take on this subject:

Do I think Zoe Quinn banged her way into free publicity?  Probably not.  But I do think that she's a terrible fucking person.  She appears to be extremely manipulative and loves to play the part of the victim.  And she also definitely created a conflict of interest between herself and her boss, as well as between her development team and a news site.  But the biggest reason I'm intrested in this is:  None of these "hacks" look real.

I'm not an expert in the realm of hacking, but I was part of the whole anti-Scientology hacking and protest back in 2008.  And I had front row seats when /b/ crucified Jesse Slaughter.  There's a certain mindset and a certain level of vindictiveness to these attacks.  When assholes of the internet wanna ruin your world, your world is ruined.  It's not a couple "lol hacked" posts on Twitter.  Your e-mail and bank accounts are compromised.  Your entire contact list is forfeit.  EVERY skeleton you have in the closet is out on display.  Your phone is ringing nonstop.  Pizzas and extremely large shipments of boxes are sent to your house.  If you have a fax, it gets black screened.  If you have servers, they're server-bombed. 

 

During the initial Wizardchan hacking, no pertinent information was leaked and Wizardchan itself was just as surprised that it occured.  Most replies in a thread on the site are honestly just confused as to who the hell Zoe Quinn IS.  The entire theme with Wizardchan is that they're adult male virgins ("if you're a virgin by the time you're 30, you become a wizard").  Most claim that they have panic attacks just talking to women and wouldn't dare think of out-and-out antagonizing one. 

 

When the Twitter "attack" occured, it was basically a post saying "Things I love: 1.) cum" and another with a phone number (originally believed to have been Zoe's, but now known to lead to a business in Hawaii (Zoe is from the Boston area)). 

Phil Fish's "attack"  straight-up says that it was the head moderator of "/V/" and that Anonymous is on his side or some such nonsense.  First off, there's a reason why "anonymous" is such a great moniker:  Because no one is directly linked to it.  No hacker's gonna straight up say where you can find him like that (unless he's the fucking Riddler or something), ESPECIALLY when they've misspelled the damn place (You NEVER capitalize.  Everyone knows this.  "/v/", not "/V/".  It's how you tell who's a newbie.)  Once again, nothing of value deleted or let out of its cage.  Just what is basically a "lol hacked" page.

 

The entire thing reeks of victim-baiting, and that appears to be the only version of the story that is being reported. 

I mean, I don't think she's the gamer equivalent of Basic Instinct, but from my perspective, she appears her hardest to be hiding whatever she can, scapegoating on others and using the shield of "feminism vs. misogyny" to cover her actions. 

Thoughts?

Edited by Green Goblin, 22 August 2014 - 07:17 PM.

[Hana-Nezumi]

I don't care who she slept with, and I think other people shouldn't either, unless you're someone who knows her personally. There's no reason for so many people to be so obsessed with who some girl banged. Any issues of cheating, adultery, etc. should be dealt with in private between the people involved. All the public slut-shaming going on is despicable.

As for the allegations of having sex in exchange for publicity for her game, if true that's really underhanded but I would put just as much, if not more, of the blame on the journalist for being willing to sacrifice all his professional integrity just for some nookie and giving her the opportunity to make such a poor decision in the first place. But I'm frankly MUCH more concerned with how reviewers get bribed by big companies for favorable reviews than one case of alleged nepotism/exchange of sexual favors in the indie sphere.

And if she actually is pretending to be hacked for attention, then that's even more reason to not give it to her.

[Twinrova]

I don't care who she slept with, and I think other people shouldn't either, unless you're someone who knows her personally. There's no reason for so many people to be so obsessed with who some girl banged. Any issues of cheating, adultery, etc. should be dealt with in private between the people involved. All the public slut-shaming going on is despicable.

 

This, and also, plenty of stupid people do stupid shit to get attention. Why does anyone care about this at all?

[Green Goblin]

Any issues of cheating, adultery, etc. should be dealt with in private between the people involved. All the public slut-shaming going on is despicable.

 

 

See, that, I'm not so sure I agree with.  I feel that either party should have the liberty to let the info be made public.  This is the same, regardless of gender and cheaters are inherently assholes regardless of their genitalia.  It's not the sexual proclivity, but rather the inherent breach of trust that is being called out on.

If you don't want people to know about shitty things you've done, don't do shitty things. 

I'll admit that it doesn't deserve the center spotlight of the story though.  I think the main thing that I'm interested in is how much the news sites seem to be siding with HER on this.  I honestly can't see why.  There is a (admittedly minor) violation of ethics here.  And the parties should be held accountable (as you said, both the journalist AND the developer). 

Edited by Green Goblin, 22 August 2014 - 09:11 PM.

[Egann]

I live in a universe where the cesspool of the internet known as 4Chan doesn't exist.

 

NORMALLY sleeping with somebody is your own business, but sleeping with a journalist to get media attention is a whole 'nother matter, especially in games journalism. Game Reviewers are actually under a fair bit of fire for protecting developer interests and giving consistently favorable reviews. And these days, your sales are only as good as your marketing budget. Journalistic integrity is a fair reason to grill Quinn (and Grayson) for not respecting professional etiquette. 

 

Of course, nobody cares about journalistic integrity these, the days of copy-past from AP with talking points from people you like.

 

Other than that, she's a shitty girlfriend. It's not the cheating that hurts the relationship; it's the lies. I can't read this and *not* think that Quinn is manipulative and controlling, not to mention a liar and a high functioning sociopath. Methinks you need to visit a therapist.

[Green Goblin]

4chan is both good and bad, IMHO.  It contains the worst the internet has to offer, no question.  It also has some of the most real discussions I've seen.  It's basically the internet concentrated. 





Oh, and dick jokes.  Lots and lots of dick jokes.

[Hana-Nezumi]

Any issues of cheating, adultery, etc. should be dealt with in private between the people involved. All the public slut-shaming going on is despicable.

 
 
See, that, I'm not so sure I agree with.  I feel that either party should have the liberty to let the info be made public.  This is the same, regardless of gender and cheaters are inherently assholes regardless of their genitalia.  It's not the sexual proclivity, but rather the inherent breach of trust that is being called out on.

If you don't want people to know about shitty things you've done, don't do shitty things.

Ok but that's legit The Scarlet Letter.

[Green Goblin]

 

 

Any issues of cheating, adultery, etc. should be dealt with in private between the people involved. All the public slut-shaming going on is despicable.

 
 
See, that, I'm not so sure I agree with.  I feel that either party should have the liberty to let the info be made public.  This is the same, regardless of gender and cheaters are inherently assholes regardless of their genitalia.  It's not the sexual proclivity, but rather the inherent breach of trust that is being called out on.

If you don't want people to know about shitty things you've done, don't do shitty things.

 

Ok but that's legit The Scarlet Letter.

 

A bit hyperbolic, don't ya think?  Wouldn't that require jail time and standing in shame in the public square??
Also, there's the fact that her husband was thought lost at sea.  So it was not a direct breach of trust (as he himself admitted to her) but rather her simply moving on from the man she thought was dead. 

Cheating is a direct breach of trust with a person who's attempting to trust you the absolute most.  It is a deplorable act and I have no problem with it being made public. 

[Hana-Nezumi]

Any issues of cheating, adultery, etc. should be dealt with in private between the people involved. All the public slut-shaming going on is despicable.

 
 
See, that, I'm not so sure I agree with.  I feel that either party should have the liberty to let the info be made public.  This is the same, regardless of gender and cheaters are inherently assholes regardless of their genitalia.  It's not the sexual proclivity, but rather the inherent breach of trust that is being called out on.

If you don't want people to know about shitty things you've done, don't do shitty things.

Ok but that's legit The Scarlet Letter.

A bit hyperbolic, don't ya think?  Wouldn't that require jail time and standing in shame in the public square??
Also, there's the fact that her husband was thought lost at sea.  So it was not a direct breach of trust (as he himself admitted to her) but rather her simply moving on from the man she thought was dead. 

Cheating is a direct breach of trust with a person who's attempting to trust you the absolute most.  It is a deplorable act and I have no problem with it being made public.

Hester may have had it worse in that sense, but in another sense, only the people in the immediate vicinity would have known of her, if she fled somewhere far enough away then she could have started a new life. But in the age of internet, if your reputation goes viral, then there's not really anywhere you can go where someone won't know who you are.

But that's away from my point, which is that it's a rather puritanical opinion that publicly naming and shaming someone is a suitable punishment for a private, personal affront. Especially in the case of cheating on someone, in which case, just fricking GET OVER the person instead of airing your dirty laundry to everyone, and violating their right to privacy for the purpose of presenting "evidence" for some kind of petty immature attempt at internet revenge.

[Green Goblin]

Yeah, no.  I'm sorry.  But I'm just gonna fully claim that getting cheated on gives one to the high ground in this case.  Being told to "get over it" is basically one big fuck you to someone who's already emotionally distraught.  It also allows the cheater to basically get off scott-free for their horribleness.  Where is the justice in that? 

 

"Just roll over and accept it.  Be quiet about it and don't make a fuss." 

 

"No.  Fuck that.  I'm mad and people are gonna know about it!!". 

It's a way of taking back control. 
 

Her rep deserves to go viral.  This wasn't a drunken mistake.  This was several distinctly planned affairs.  This was something she set up her entire online life around.  She was meticulous in how she fucked her ex over.  I see no reason why he shouldn't be able to be meticulous with his righteous indignation.

Edited by Green Goblin, 22 August 2014 - 11:24 PM.

[Hana-Nezumi]

Be mad and people can know about it, but does the whole internet have to know? No. Just tell people who you actually KNOW and who can help you get through it.

For the record I definitely would NEVER say to someone who is a friend and talking to me directly about being cheated on to "get over it". That would be really shitty.

But someone who is posting the other party's private information, pictures, etc to shame them to strangers on the internet has reached the point of being a complete dick who needs to be kicked down a peg. In that case, I'd not hesitate to say "get over it".

Edited by Hana-Nezumi, 22 August 2014 - 11:28 PM.

[Green Goblin]

Sorry, but still no for me.  We're gonna have to agree to disagree here.

Being a horrible cheater is a bad thing.  Telling the world that said horrible cheater is in fact a horrible cheater is not a bad thing.  It's an accurate description.  And as said before.  If she doesn't wanna be known for doing shitty things, then she should cease to do shitty things.  As it stands, she's not.  So it's not like she's learning, is she?

Edited by Green Goblin, 22 August 2014 - 11:36 PM.

[Sir Turtlelot]

Justice? 4Chan? Please.

 

I was trying to avoid this thread, but that last comment did it.

 

This is NOT about justice, this is about a group of petulant man-children getting off to absolutely destroying someone for arbitrary reasons. There is no justice being done here.

[Selena]

This is high school drama. I mean, really, that's all it is. All parties come across as being extraordinarily immature.

 

If she fabricated a "hack," then that's a shitty thing to do. It's always shitty when someone makes up/deliberately causes a scandal to gain publicity (see: various young celebrities). I can sniff those things out on LA, but I don't have the power to research this one, so I can't say either way if she made it up. Hacks and net harassment come in many forms.

 

Also shitty: Airing someone's personal relationship information all over the internet. Especially in the obsessive way it happened. I've seen scientific wikipedia articles less intricate than that.

 

Seriously. This is the exact kind of thing that happens in high school. "Student may or may not be fabricating an incident for attention. Her ex-boyfriend tries to tarnish her reputation by spilling all their dirty secrets to people, which makes the entire school (in this case, internet) gossip about her and badmouth her." The whole situation is worthy of a Picard double-facepalm. 

 

 

 

 

 

Public shaming -- there's a difference between making a facebook post saying "Left my cheatin' ex, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out" and posting a huge essay that practically has a dedicated citation section. When you're obsessively dragging your ex through the mud and airing out all your personal relationship information into the public eye, then it just gets awkward and embarrassing. It's like any other trainwreck social media drama -- both the one at fault and the one complaining look like childish idiots.

 

People airing out all their dirty laundry online is one of the most embarrassing things about the social media generations.

 

Etiquette. Relationship issues aren't anyone's business if they aren't actually in the relationship.

[Jasi]

Seconding everyone saying "this is high school drama." I think my stance was summed up best on a reddit comment: "How could anyone with with anything remotely resembling a life give a quarter of a shit about this?"

[Elvenlord]

Found this on imgur: 

[Veteran]

If you don't want people to know about shitty things you've done, don't do shitty things. 

 

 

If I could correct this slightly:

 

If you don't want people to know about shitty things you've done, don't leave evidence online.

 

It drives me bananas when I hear about a problem like this, or of cyber bullying, or twitter trolling, when it could easily be prevented by being smart with the internet. Too many newbs.

[Mark]

Hana-Nezumi, on 23 Aug 2014 - 2:08 PM, said:

Green Goblin, on 23 Aug 2014 - 1:26 PM, said:

Hana-Nezumi, on 23 Aug 2014 - 1:02 PM, said:

Green Goblin, on 23 Aug 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

Hana-Nezumi, on 23 Aug 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:
Any issues of cheating, adultery, etc. should be dealt with in private between the people involved. All the public slut-shaming going on is despicable.

See, that, I'm not so sure I agree with. I feel that either party should have the liberty to let the info be made public. This is the same, regardless of gender and cheaters are inherently assholes regardless of their genitalia. It's not the sexual proclivity, but rather the inherent breach of trust that is being called out on.

If you don't want people to know about shitty things you've done, don't do shitty things.

Ok but that's legit The Scarlet Letter.

A bit hyperbolic, don't ya think? Wouldn't that require jail time and standing in shame in the public square??
Also, there's the fact that her husband was thought lost at sea. So it was not a direct breach of trust (as he himself admitted to her) but rather her simply moving on from the man she thought was dead.

Cheating is a direct breach of trust with a person who's attempting to trust you the absolute most. It is a deplorable act and I have no problem with it being made public.

Hester may have had it worse in that sense, but in another sense, only the people in the immediate vicinity would have known of her, if she fled somewhere far enough away then she could have started a new life. But in the age of internet, if your reputation goes viral, then there's not really anywhere you can go where someone won't know who you are.

But that's away from my point, which is that it's a rather puritanical opinion that publicly naming and shaming someone is a suitable punishment for a private, personal affront. Especially in the case of cheating on someone, in which case, just fricking GET OVER the person instead of airing your dirty laundry to everyone, and violating their right to privacy for the purpose of presenting "evidence" for some kind of petty immature attempt at internet revenge.

Ok, so I though I might add a little bit (for good discussion) about the ethics of shaming and of cheating.

so... I was cheated on recently - and I was fantastically hurt... though the act was not pre-meditated... I broke the relationship off, and I kept the information to myself principly because I felt that it wouldnt be a good thing to inflict her with any more pain.
so first and foremost: cheaters arent inherantly assholes...

however, In my time gradually recovering over the whole thing, I befriended another guy who had forgiven his gf for cheating 4 times, only to discover that she was financially using him untill such time as it suited her to move out with her new-found gf - and had cheated on him for an additional 5.
however, In getting to know this guy I could tell that he was emotionally reliant and a bit controlling by nature - and I could see how his insecurity was both a contribution in causing and also re-enforced by the girls behavior - which I daresay he was aware of.
I suspect infact that their staying together as long was partly due to some kind of complimentary and opposite insecurities in both of them.
relationships are complicated.

But in anycase... there do exist genuniely malign people. who have had time and opportunity to grow to excellence at taking advantage of the ignorance of ordinary and well-meaning people in one or several areas - private or otherwise.
shaming can be undeserved - and an injustice - however It can also be deserved and serve to discourage the activity and/or can save innocent people from pain.

Edited by Mark, 24 August 2014 - 11:06 AM.

[Green Goblin]

That's actually a very well-made point, Mark.  I'll concede that there are indeed various reasons that might drive a person to cheat.  There are indeed shades of moral ambiguity with a proper lack of details in some cases (though, admittedly, I feel that there are enough details here to form a fairly sensible MO).

 

 

Also, the story of Vivian James has now made my day and perfectly reinforces my previously-made point:  4chan isn't inherently evil.  It's just really intense.  And good can indeed come from it. 

[Egann]

Seconding everyone saying "this is high school drama." I think my stance was summed up best on a reddit comment: "How could anyone with with anything remotely resembling a life give a quarter of a shit about this?"

 

Nobody does. It's just the other stuff we can talk about are 1) Ferguson, MI, which makes me feel powerless and depressed, 2) ISIS in Iraq, which no one wants anybody talking about...and makes me feel powerless and depressed, and 3) The terrible economy which--wait for it--makes EVERYBODY feel powerless and depressed.

 

Hey, I have a fantastic idea. Let's all turn into brainless gossips.

[Mark]

That's actually a very well-made point, Mark.  I'll concede that there are indeed various reasons that might drive a person to cheat.  There are indeed shades of moral ambiguity with a proper lack of details in some cases (though, admittedly, I feel that there are enough details here to form a fairly sensible MO).

 

Thanks :-)

I feel the same way.

[JRPomazon]

 

Seconding everyone saying "this is high school drama." I think my stance was summed up best on a reddit comment: "How could anyone with with anything remotely resembling a life give a quarter of a shit about this?"

 

Nobody does. It's just the other stuff we can talk about are 1) Ferguson, MI, which makes me feel powerless and depressed, 2) ISIS in Iraq, which no one wants anybody talking about...and makes me feel powerless and depressed, and 3) The terrible economy which--wait for it--makes EVERYBODY feel powerless and depressed.

 

Hey, I have a fantastic idea. Let's all turn into brainless gossips.

 

 

People might also say that things like Ferguson are distractions from issues like ISIS in Iraq, Russia's subtle invasion of Ukraine using beligerant mercenaries labeled as rebels, SYRIA, the latest episode in the Gaza conflict, the ever growing problems coming from the change in our climates and how in the next 100 years the seas are going to rise by 10 or more feet (flooding a great deal of coastal cities), etc. There is a lot of really, really, really terrible and huge shit going on in the world today and not a single person has any power over it. We take a step back and see what can be addressed properly rather than attempting to feel powerless. Starting small or perhaps just accepting our own weakness.

 

On the topic of Zoe Quinn, her personal choices shouldn't have necessarily been as hyped up as they have been and made as public. She cheated, yes. Cheating is bad, absolutely. I've been cheated on myself as well and I can't speak highly of it. But it's still in the realm of her personal affairs (pun semi-intended) and not for the public forum. However, this doesn't make it any less right or accepted and sure as hell doesn't show well of her sense of professionalism. The personal choices often reflect how we conduct ourselves in our jobs and our private lives. If Zoe was willing to sleep with something behind her boyfriend's back and then fabricate this hack to make her into the victim what does that say about her professionally? It doesn't make her seem any more employable by other companies and it shows that she would be willing or even desperate enough to do things most frown upon to get what she wants. I personally would not want to work with something like that, let alone hire them for a project of any kind. That kind of desperation has no place in the business world of any industry.

 

Regardless of the Moral Relativism that is popular right now in our society, that doesn't mean bad acts and foul play are any less undesirable. She lied about what she had done, she fabricated a variety of truths to cement these lies into place. She has acted very immaturely and because of this her name is being plastered all over the internet by people just as mature as she is. Play with fire, get burned. I can't make a statement on her outside of this incident because I don't know her, so I won't say she is a terrible person. She's a person who has made mistakes and is now paying for them.

[Jasi]

Yes, you can always make the argument "aren't there more important things to talk about," but let's get real, this is gossip. It doesn't impact anything of importance in anyone's lives except those directly involved. People who care are, as you said, immature. So who cares, seriously.

[Doctor Pogo]

Seeing as how she's a game designer, I figure there's only one question that is relevant here, and that seems to be a question that no one is asking: are her games good?

 

Everything else about her is none of my business.

[Green Goblin]

From what I've been told about Depression Quest, no.  Her game is not good.

[Toan]

games journalism

"journalism"

[MikePetersSucks]

You know, that everyone just writes off Zoe as "having cheated on her Ex" and "made mistakes on the internet bluh bluh" strikes me as a bit disingenuous, for one significant reason.

 

Zoe Quinn is a textbook emotional abuser. It's not just that she cheated, or used sex to advance her career, or that she lied about it. She also put extraordinary amounts of energy into emotionally abusing her boyfriend to make him doubt his own sense of reason, guilt-tripped him to try to make him break contact with his other female friends (including one girl who was on suicide watch), and more or less betrayed every moral principle she professed to have.

 

She paints herself as a compassionate Social Justice activist with all these values about respect and compassion for the mentally ill and whatnot, that she really kind of needs this sort of exposure so that people don't throw money at her for being a 'victim' or 'a social activist' (Which they do; Depression Quest only got Greenlighted on Steam because people felt sympathy for her over imaginary trolling that she fabricated for attention).

 

If someone is emotionally abusing their lovers, people need to be informed so as not to be romantically involved with her. If someone is using dishonest and unethical means of advancing their career, they need to be called out on it so their behavior can be addressed. If someone is lying about other people doing horrendous things to them, they need to be called out to protect the innocence of the people she's demonizing for her own narrative.

 

Also, according to Zoe Quinn's own sense of morality, she is a rapist. She considers cheating on someone and then sleeping with them to be sex without consent due to the lack of full information, and that is rape. She admits that she still considered it to be rape to her ex-boyfriend in the logs.

 

She can (in her mind) rape someone and expose them to STDs and still sleep at night. There is nothing petty or high school drama-y about exposing this sort of person. Eron is not trying to stir up drama or do high school bullshit. He wrote up his opus, posted it in two places, and let the internet do it's thing.

 

Anyone trying to dismiss this as an irrelevant or petty is marginalizing and trivializing sexual and emotional abuse, journalistic corruption (Whatever you think of gaming journalism, it should still conduct itself seriously if it wants to be taken seriously), and basically perjury and libel.

[Jasi]

Are you serious? The whole public needs to be made aware of the existence and name of every abuser out there? We'd have nothing else to talk about if we needed to broadcast every abusive relationship "to be informed so as not to be romantically involved with them". That's like saying "We need to broadcast every car crash on TV; ignoring it or saying it doesn't matter is marginalizing and trivializing to people suffering loss of their family and loved ones." Like, I get where you're coming from, but it's not feasible.

 

Which leads to the question, why is this abuser so important to everyone? Why not one of my college roommates, who abused her boyfriend? Why not any of the 3 million women who get abused each year?

I think the answer has quite a lot to do with her gender and her position. This stuff about her being abusive didn't come out until way later in the conversation so to use that to justify the public outrage and shaming is very retroactive and reads more like a convenient way to excuse oneself from being caught up in this petty drama than a legitimate reason. 

 

It wouldn't be petty if it were someone you are actually connected to. Which, incidentally, is something that all of us who are saying "this is stupid" have already acknowledged (Hana: "...unless you're someone who knows her personally", Lena: "there's a difference between making a facebook post ... and posting a huge essay that practically has a dedicated citation section", me: "It doesn't impact anything of importance in anyone's lives except those directly involved"). If it were your friend or relative getting abused, I'd totally understand where you guys are all coming from and why you are upset.

But what are you gonna do about this famous person you don't know who's abusing some other person that you don't know, all the way over here? Most people aren't doing anything besides talking shit about her. Most people aren't even using this as an opportunity to begin a healthy dialogue about abusive relationships or about how men can be abused too, they are just gossiping. Is that really helping anything? Nope. It makes people feel better about themselves to put down other people though.

Edited by Jasi, 29 August 2014 - 01:29 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Are you seriously comparing personal blogposts to television broadcasts?

 

Are you literally equating every individual car crash that effects a small handful of people to an emotionally manipulative person trying to influence an entire industry under false pretenses?

 

 

 

Which leads to the question, why is this abuser so important to everyone? Why not one of my college roommates, who abused her boyfriend? Why not any of the 3 million women who get abused each year?

 

Well, let's see, are they major figures in the gaming industry who are buying positive recognition with sex? Are they social activists taking money for a Game Jam they're not actually holding, making up false claims so that social justice warriors harass other internet forums who have never interacted with her, and advancing their career through lying to people and exploiting social movements?

 

It's not that she cheated on this guy that she's significant; it's just a demonstration of what sort of person she is and how it informs all this other shit that effects WAY MORE PEOPLE than just Eron. Do you even know who Zoe Quinn is outside of the Zoepost?

 

 

 

I think the answer has quite a lot to do with her gender and her position. This stuff about her being abusive didn't come out until way later in the conversation so to use that to justify the public outrage and shaming is very retroactive and reads more like a convenient way to excuse oneself from being caught up in this petty drama than a legitimate reason.

 

I honestly don't think this a gender issue. Atleast, it's not for me personally. It's a nepotism issue. It's an issue on how easy it is to infiltrate and exploit social activist movements for personal gain and how low the standards are for lavishing someone in love and praise just because they appear compassionate on the internet. It's an issue on how internet journalism has completely failed to meet even the most minimum standards of old-media on ethical integrity. It's an issue on how Journalist sites like fucking Kotaku will ruin a guy's career and reputation based on the rumor that he raped a girl, but if a woman admits to the same thing they'll censor all discussion on the issue and ban people from their forums for bringing it up.

 

If it was just one random abuser, you'd have a point, but she's effecting way more people than just her ex-boyfriend.

 

 

 

It wouldn't be petty if it were someone you are actually connected to. Which, incidentally, is something that all of us who are saying "this is stupid" have already acknowledged (Hana: "...unless you're someone who knows her personally", Lena: "there's a difference between making a facebook post ... and posting a huge essay that practically has a dedicated citation section", me: "It doesn't impact anything of importance in anyone's lives except those directly involved"). If it were your friend or relative getting abused, I'd totally understand where you guys are all coming from and why you are upset.

 

Except it's effecting people who aren't directly involved. See above. It's not an isolated incident.

 

Furthermore, what point does your post have besides "Don't talk about this"? Is it really healthy to shut down a conversation just because you don't feel it's personally relevant? That's kind of a dangerous way to approach matters, in my opinion.

 

 

 

But what are you gonna do about this famous person you don't know who's abusing some other person that you don't know, all the way over here? Most people aren't doing anything besides talking shit about her. Most people aren't even using this as an opportunity to begin a healthy dialogue about abusive relationships or about how men can be abused too, they are just gossiping. Is that really helping anything? Nope. It makes people feel better about themselves to put down other people though.

 

I agree a lot of people are handling this poorly and making this into some dumb Zoe Quinn Slut Shaming 4chan bullshit. Doesnt' invalidate the original discussion Eron wanted to bring up though, and it's pretty disingenuous of you to imply that.

 

If people are aware of Zoe Quinn, she can't emotionally exploit or control them. That alone makes it worth talking about in my opinion, because she has thousands of blind followers. If being aware of this corruption makes Kotaku and related sites be more strict about their writers FUCKING AND FINANCIALLY SUPPORTING THE PEOPLE THEY'RE REVIEWING, it'd be worth it. If people are more critical of people they idolize on the internet and are willing to give them more scrutiny instead of taking their word on things just because they play the victim card, the discussion is worth having.

 

If you're trying to reduce the entire subject into being about just Eron's emotional abuse and personal laundry, you're just as bad as everyone else you're calling a gossiper because you're either ignorant of, or deliberately dismissive of, the other factors and issues being talked about.

 

And for the record, I'm personally acquainted with Eron. I won't say I'm a close friend or anything else that might imply that I have special insight or significance to this issue, but I shouldn't have to have a connection with someone involved in a scandal for it to be important to me. I can have empathy for people who suffer at the hands of a bad person without personal ties to them, can't I?

Edited by MikePetersSucks, 29 August 2014 - 03:27 PM.

[Jasi]

...Why are you now yelling at me for focusing on the only thing that your post talked about at all? You realize that you're the one who said "Anyone trying to dismiss this as an irrelevant or petty is marginalizing and trivializing sexual and emotional abuse." That's why I focused on that too. 

 

My point isn't "don't talk about this," it's "who cares; take a step back and reevaluate whether this is actually such a big deal." I thought that was abundantly clear.