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#1 Selena

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 12:00 AM

In a surprising move, Tesla Motors opened its previously exclusive patents on electric motors (and then some)-- making the technology open and accessible to anyone. They did this in an effort to encourage other automakers to embrace and work on electric vehicles. Supposedly, it's a no-strings-attached show of good faith. In the spirit of Tesla himself, really.

 

Read here: http://www.forbes.co...for-the-planet/

 

 

 

 

Really good of them. The electric vehicle market has a lot of potential, but most automakers (along with the government) haven't invested a whole lot of money into it because of the deep pockets of the oil industry. Which is why it lags behind. By doing this, hopefully they'll encourage more people to experiment and develop new technologies.

 

The Tesla Roadster successfully showed car-nuts that electric vehicles can have a ton of acceleration and performance muscle -- specifically because of how their engines work. Now the trick is getting the costs down. Which will inevitably happen when people invest more time and energy into it.

 

So... good job, Tesla!



#2 JRPomazon

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 12:21 PM

Given how stacked the game is in the automotive industry, I think this might have been the only move they could make as a company. I don't think Tesla Motors would have just given away their pattens if they knew they could make a buck off of it. We'll see how this all plays out in the long run, maybe we'll see some brand new designs and maybe we'll see nothing change at all.

 

Personally, I would like to see something come of this but there is a part of me that claims to "know better."



#3 Egann

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 03:54 PM

Personally, I would like to see something come of this but there is a part of me that claims to "know better."

 

My sentiments exactly.

 

 

This might actually surprise you but I actually want to like electric cars. Even ignoring the "is CO2 a pollutant" stuff, they're hands down cleaner and more efficient. The comparisons of cars like the Nissan Leaf and your ordinary econobox car, however, are astounding. You can fit the MSRP and other cost of owning a Ford Fiesta for 5 years neatly inside the Leaf's MSRP with room to spare. Things only get worse if you include resale value.

 

Electric cars aren't selling because they aren't competitive and opening up a few patents isn't anywhere near enough to help. 



#4 Selena

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 08:00 PM

 

Electric cars aren't selling because they aren't competitive and opening up a few patents isn't anywhere near enough to help. 

 

 

Well, remember. The original Macintosh -- with its laughable 128k RAM, 512x342 screen resolution, and 400k hard drive -- was $2500. That's over 5 grand after inflation adjustment. 

 

There was no point in dropping that much cash on a computer to do business bookkeeping when paper filing systems were cheap and reliable, and actually going outside to play was more fun than a lot of those early games. But it still sold. And personal computers only got better from there.

 

 

Any relatively new technology is more expensive than whatever the "norm" happens to be -- it takes a while for costs to come down. Still. A ton of progress has been made on electric cars in just the last ten years. If momentum keeps up, costs will continue to be reduced, and efficiency will continue to be increased. Opening those patents will allow existing automakers and private developers to play with and refine existing technology. It'd be even better if there were more state grants to encourage R&D, but that ship has mostly sailed.

 

I don't really expect most American automakers -- other than Tesla, obviously -- to jump on board. They're too busy recalling half of the cars they've already made! *pa-dum-tish!*

 

Given the costs of gasoline in Europe, though, I do expect to see some European automakers to make use of it. Especially since they're more open to sustainable energy technology. BMW was already in talks with Tesla before this. So hopefully the others will follow suit. If efficiency goes up and costs come down, then they'll be viable. Which is bound to happen within the next 20 years if momentum keeps up. Public transport first, probably, then private commercial, and then it'll spread everywhere.

 

For now, most electric cars are playthings for people who have money, but that was the case with computers, too. I have good faith that more progress will be made, and I do think the open patents will help with that. Maybe not on the American side of the pond at first, but eventually.

 

 

 

Because at the end of the day, we're eventually gonna run out of a steady supply of gasoline. And once that happens, you're fucked. It's already outrageous that we're paying this much for gas. It's just common sense to switch to electric motors in the long run.

 

It's like big-homework-project mentality. Do you wanna make progress on it early before the deadline, or do you wanna wait until the last five minutes and use a gluestick to slap something up on a poster board in a desperate attempt to pass the class?  One of the regrettable downsides to living in a profit-society is that the market tends to prefer the second option because it allows people to make more money right up until a crisis point. Good for the books, not necessarily the best for the long-term.

 

 

 

 

(I'd personally love to have a 100% electric motorcycle someday -- both because of the cheap energy costs and the fact that there's no fuel to clog the fuel lines if you don't ride it for a while -- and I'm surprised there hasn't been a whole lot of movement made on the motorcycle and scooter front, given how much easier they'd be to charge.)



#5 Doctor Pogo

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 03:00 AM

The funny thing is, this isn't new technology.  There were electric cars that compared evenly or even favorably to gas cars in both cost and performance from the very beginning.  Over time, the gas monopolies were able to shut out the competition by building infrastructure faster and generally just having more money resources available to promote the vehicles that consumed their product.

 

Electric cars are not more expensive because they are more expensive to make.  I built one.  I was part of a team in high school that built the first student-made electric vehicle in the state of Georgia, an electric go-kart.  We went on to be the second team in Georgia to complete a conversion of a full sized vehicle.  We were not supported with funds by the school district or the state, we raised money by putting on a dinner theater and by doing presentations to our local Lions and Kiwanis and Rotary clubs.  We got a company that manufactures electric motors to donate a motor, and we bought everything else and built it ourselves.  We bought an old Ford Ranger at a junkyard with the money from the dinner theater, and stripped it down to the rails in our workshop, and then did a complete conversion on it.  We built a battery compartment under the truck bed that housed sixteen lead acid boat batteries, and retrofitted the transmission linkage to accept the output from the electric motor.

 

The final product was astoundingly good, for a truck built by kids with no engineering experience.  It was a real vehicle, capable of reaching and maintaining interstate speeds, with a range of 100 or so miles on a charge.  And we did it in less-than-ideal circumstances, with a total cost of about $6,000, including the donated engine and all the tools and supplies we had to buy.

 

Sure, we used cheap lead-acid batteries, and we paid for it in performance.  If we had been able to get our hands on modern nickel-hydride or lithium ion batteries, we could have easily tripled our benchmarks for range and acceleration, and come in weighing far less.  If our budget had been $8,000 instead of six, we would have been able to do that.  And these days, those batteries are not as expensive as they were back in 1999 when this all was going down.

 

So yeah, the technology exists and is not hard to use, and it's not prohibitively expensive.  Car companies are not building electric cars for other reasons than that.  We did a lot of research at the time on the subject, and we actually got to talk to some car company executives and engineers and designers, and from what we heard it seems that mostly it's because it would require a huge investment up front in order to convert existing production plants to build a totally different kind of car, and they're skittish about making that investment because they don't have enough solid evidence that the new cars would sell at a rate that would turn over the investment quickly enough.  And the reason they don't have enough evidence is because the only electric vehicles being made are generally boutique models that don't move a lot of units, because they're created and marketed as a special product, because no one has invested in large-scale production.

 

There's also the problem of infrastructure.  The roads are well-equipped to handle gasoline cars, but charging stations for EVs are still rare in most parts of the country.  And there's the other problem with charging stations: charging takes time.  A person can stop for gas and get right back on their way, but if you stop to charge your EV you've probably got at least an hour or two to kill.  So the idea of charging facilities that are similar in nature to gas stations is not really how it would need to work - the charging station would be better in a parking lot at the mall, or at popular tourist destinations or local entertainment.  Stop and see a movie, come out and your car is ready.

 

And that brings us to the only real technological barrier - range.  A fully electric vehicle is completely capable of most everything a person could need a vehicle for.  Except long-distance travel - gas vehicles are 100% better for that.  Various schemes for resolving this problem have been attempted: regenerative braking, wireless charging on the move, etc.  We experimented with a setup with small electric brush motors on each axle which served as mini-generators and pumped electricity back into the battery array.  We got a small boost in range in our paper calculations, but in reality it was highly inefficient, and the extra weight canceled out the positive effects, so we scrapped the idea.

 

Anyway, all that was to basically agree that it's unlikely that existing large car manufacturers are going to take the Tesla patents and dive into the EV market full steam.  It's way too much of a risk for them still.  But there's the possibility that some outsider will use this stuff to start a new company, and build their own factory, and make cheap mass-produced EVs.  It's totally possible.



#6 Egann

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 11:52 AM

The thing is that batteries and electric motors are literally older technologies than internal combustion by about thirty years, and we're close to pushing what they can do to the limit. Cell phone batteries already occasionally catch fire. That's not to say that there's no room for improvement, particularly with charge time, cost, or memory issues, but energy per gram is probably about as high as it can safely get. 

 

A while ago I thought that a fuel cell would be a far superior option to a battery, because fuel cells can use fuels like methane and ammonia. We already have existing natural gas infrastructure, and we use ammonia for fertilizers and explosives. Too bad methane is explosive, ammonia is highly toxic, and both of them are gasses at STP. Gasoline is a liquid, has practically the same energy quotient, and is nowhere near as toxic or explosive.

 

 

That doesn't mean electric cars won't infiltrate the market at all, however. I expect that when 3D printing hits the automotive marketplace in another 5-8 years low-end electric cars will fall drastically in price. Electric cars will become affordable for what they do, but the need for gasoline cars will not have disappeared, either. Rather than switching from owning one gas car to owning one electric car, people will start owning one of each.

 

As you can gather, I'm not terribly excited about this.


Edited by Egann, 15 June 2014 - 11:53 AM.


#7 Selena

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 07:52 PM

 

The thing is that batteries and electric motors are literally older technologies than internal combustion by about thirty years, and we're close to pushing what they can do to the limit.

 

 

The technology isn't new as in it was imagined up yesterday, but it has also received about 1% of automakers' attention since the dawn of the automobile. It's relatively undeveloped compared with all the breakthroughs made on the combustion engine. As for us "already pushing the limits" of what electric batteries and motors can do, I'm not sure where you're pulling that from. Because it's not true as far as electric automakers are concerned. 

 

Consider the Zero SR -- an electric motorcycle. The bike's power, battery life, and range have increased by double percentage points every single year since 2011. It began as a glorified scooter and now has the acceleration of a supersport and the handling of a 250. It goes well above legal speed limits. And it has a 100+ mile range on a single charge, which is more than enough for daily commutes and plenty of joyriding after work. That is a massive leap forward in just three short years, and efficiency is expected to incease. 

 

Just because a technology is "old" doesn't mean it has been adequately developed.

 

 

 

 

 Electric cars will become affordable for what they do, but the need for gasoline cars will not have disappeared, either. Rather than switching from owning one gas car to owning one electric car, people will start owning one of each.

 

 

The electric market isn't going to outright replace every fueled vehicle out there any time soon, nor should it. Different features for different drivers -- but I don't really think you need one of each.

 

 

If you live out in the sticks and have to drive hours to get to the nearest city, then a gas vehicle will remain essential. Same for anyone who makes regular road trips. There'd be no practical use for an electric vehicle in those situations.

 

If you live in the city or suburbs, though, an electric vehicle is going to fulfill your travel needs. The bike above has a 100+ mile range. The Tesla S has a 200+ mile range. Ranges which are set to increase. That's more than enough for a commute, some errands, and even some joyriding after work. Not having to pay for gas, oil, and maintenance would free money up for other things... like crippling city rent payments. Keeping a gas vehicle around simply for the once-every-few-years road trip wouldn't be practical, since the fuel and oil lines would clog up and become useless by the time you actually needed it. Rail is much better for occasional long distance travel, and the big coastal cities are all on rail lines. It would just be nice if we could throw some more money public transport's way, since we need to do it anyway.

 

 

 

Europe would especially benefit -- given how their public transport system is set up. Most commuters don't travel that far, and long distance trips are more efficient by rail no matter what kind of vehicle you regularly drive. Which is another reason why I see electric vehicles taking off faster there.

 

I personally don't travel more than 50 miles a day, and I only have to ride down to Seattle once every few years. That's a trip that can be done by train, which is something people currently do to avoid the nasty traffic.

 

One vehicle costs come down, which they have been and will continue to, then they will become more appealing.

 

 

 

But yes, I presume most electric manufacturing will be done by newer, smaller companies rather than existing ones. With the possible exception of European companies.



#8 Steel Samurai

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 05:30 PM

If the EV industry can get average range to 300-400 miles, traditional combustion engines for day to day use are obsolete. I think this will be technologically possible in 5-10 years.

 

The recharge time issue is actually quite simple - a battery swap service at traditional gas stations. The car would have to be designed for quick swaps, but the stop-time would be comparable to filling up. Tesla already has a couple stations between SF and LA which do this, I believe. It costs about $50, the same as it costs me to fill up my Celica in CA. Traditional charging mechanisms could be offered for less money.

 

Integration of solar in vehicles can help with this. They won't be enough to provide constant charging with our current solar tech, but they could increase range substantially on a sunny day. If this technology: http://www.solarroad...com/intro.shtml takes off, as I hope it will, vehicles will be able to be charged AS THEY DRIVE, providing an unlimited range and completely changing the way transportation is approached.

 

Initially, gas powered cars will only be needed for rural areas, but with improvements in solar tech even this will become unnecessary.

 

As far as I'm concerned, the only major roadblock in the way of full adoption of EVs is big oil. It'll take 10-15 years to refine manufacturing processes and get the necessary infrastructure built, but as soon as we get a reliable electric vehicle in the $30k range with a 300 mile range, I expect the adoption rate to skyrocket.

 

I live in the most "drivingest" city in the country. My friend Kyle sometimes drives over a hundred miles a day just to get to and from work. Even in his Camry, which has great mileage, that's about a hundred bucks a week in gas. That's not uncommon, here, which is why there are so many goddamn Prius owners in LA. 

 

40% of US oil usage is by cars. (source: http://peakoildebunk...-petroleum.html).

 

Imagine if we could convert 90% of US cars to electric in the next fifty years. We would no longer have an economic reason (also known as the only reason) to interfere in the Middle East - US oil reserves could theoretically be enough to take care of all of the plastics and other oil by-products. If we could come up with a solar powered Zeppelin (not unreasonable if the solar development has been done as detailed above), air transport would be revolutionized and reduce a further 9% of current oil usage.

 

Widespread availability of this technology would also significantly reduce CO2 emissions in other countries, perhaps allowing us to fix the emissions problem without longterm use of carbon trading.

 

The electric car could change the world. And this is an important first step.



#9 Steel Samurai

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 10:06 PM

*bump* so . . . this just happened.

http://thinkprogress...r-speed-record/




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