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Mighty No. 9 Feminism(ish) Scandal


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#1 SL the Pyro

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 05:11 AM

So, I chipped in for that Mighty No. 9 thing that's supposed to be the spiritual successor to Mega Man. From what I've heard though, it's fallen on tough times almost right out of the gate. Here's a video summary:

 

 

Long story short: girl who is a feminist gets on the team for Mighty No, 9, girl says she's designing robots for the game, backers flip the fuck out.

 

Beefier and more relevant summary: this girl, named "Dina", has entered the fold of the Mighty No. 9 development team as both a community manager and as an artist. She is very much a feminist, which I think is fine, though the legions of backers that populate the game forums seemed quite sceptical. Within a day of her hiring, these backers picked apart her twitter account and found a number of reasons why she shouldn't be on the job, the most glaring of which is that she has never played a Mega Man game. Other issues include an apparent lie to the community pertaining to this lack of experience (lying is a big no-no as a community manager), as well as abundant claims that she only got the job via nepotism (some of her friends and her boyfriend also work on the dev team, admitted by Dina herself). One of her tweets stated that she's also be designing "robot masters" for Mighty No. 9, which caused most of the community to foam at the mouth.

 

This recent article says that one of the Mighty No. 9 team's higher-ups addressed the issue; it smells of the basic professional talk that's merely meant to calm the masses down, but what really caught my eye is that the person who made this article - not the forum post in the article, I mean the article itself - seems to believe that these people are using the nepotism and lack of experience as excuses to attack Dina just because she's female.

 

Now, what do I think of all this? Well, first of all I think the backers need to damn well cool their jets: the "Mark" dev team worker who made the professional post thing is likely absolutely right in that Dina won't horribly twist the project into something unrecognizable just because she's a feminist. She's merely a community manager, and the most she can do pertaining to the actual game is design a couple of robot bosses - who gives a hoot if they're female? The things people are afraid she'll change are the characters and things that have already been well-established during the Kickstarter, which quite frankly isn't going to happen - and if Dina does think it will happen, then she clearly has no grasp of game design as a business.

 

It's not all sunshine and roses for Dina though, as the issues of lying to the community, having no experience with the franchise Mighty No. 9 is based off of, and the fully possible nepotism are huge red flags. It's not helping her case that she addressed exactly none of these issues herself, which is what she is supposed to be doing as a community manager. The kicker though is that the poster of the linked article thinks that these are all just "smokescreen" to mask that no one wants a girl on the project. Newsflash: there are already women on the project and there have been women on the project since day one. These things he seems to think are meaningless are actually the entire reason why people think Dina should be kicked out.

 

...At least, that's what I'd like to think. After taking the time to browse through some of the mountains upon mountains of slander at Dina's expense, I was dismayed to see that most of it was, in fact, about the feminism thing. My faith in humanity is already dead and buried, but the sheer stupidity of people at times still manages to grind my gears regardless; it really seems like most of the backers have latched onto the most immature reason to attack Dina.

 

Okay. On the one hand, a little unease is to be expected out of any big undertaking like this, but to have it all blow up in Dina's face because of a couple tweet slip-ups hardly seems fair. On the other hand, Mighty No. 9 is a pretty ambitious project that a lot of people donated for, and someone with no game design experience of familiarity with the previous franchise should have no place whatsoever in the dev team; a community manager, sure, but not the dev team. I personally think Dina has overstepped her boundaries a bit, but to see this all happen more because of some dumb feminism slander instead of the much more pressing issues does make me feel some sympathy for the poor girl, though given that she outright lied to a million people, she didn't garner that much sympathy.

 

Does anyone else have thoughts on this? I've probably just vomited out another rant onto Contro again, but I thought it was worth discussing.


Edited by SL the Pyro, 17 December 2013 - 05:18 AM.


#2 Wolf O'Donnell

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 05:46 AM

Wonder if Jim Sterling will do a video about this? He already made a rant about anti-feminism from the videogame community. This case, however, seems really convoluted.



#3 Sir Deimos

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 07:18 AM

I'm on that forum as well. I've had to stop going. It's disgusting. People trying to pull their pledges because of Dina. The whole situation makes me sick.

#4 Hana-Nezumi

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 10:09 AM



The recent anti-feminist backlash on the internet, largely thanks to Anita Snarkeesian's videos, is something that annoys me to no end. Mostly because the anti-feminists DO NOT UNDERSTAND FEMINISM AT ALL, resulting in strawman arguments left and right.

Why does it matter if she has played a Mega Man game or not? And who's to say that she didn't play one between the time that she said she didn't and the time that she said she did? She's only a community manager, not a designer or anything actually pertaining to the development of the game. And if you have a problem with nepotism, well, that's EVERYWHERE, if it's something you truly want to speak out about, there are much bigger fish to fry than Dina.

#5 deep

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 10:56 AM

I just love that this whole thing exploded because nerds were offended by perceived intent.

 

I want to withdraw my funding because I think this girl wants to single-handedly impart an agenda which scares me into a game made by dozens of seasoned veterans.


Edited by deep, 17 December 2013 - 01:24 PM.


#6 deep

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 10:57 AM

That's like arresting someone because you are "pretty sure" they were briefly considering robbing a bank because they put up a post wishing they had some extra money.



#7 Egann

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 12:09 PM

OK, personal opinion: If you're going to make a game based off Mega Man, it's professional to SPEND SOME TIME PLAYING A MEGA MAN GAME. You don't necessarily have to "beat" a game, or even get that far into it, but some experience to tell you what the game represents for it's fans is a must. Especially for someone as integral as the BOSS DESIGNER.

 

For some perspective, Sienna Guillory--Jill Valentine in Resident Evil: Apocalypse--watched Let's Plays of Resident Evil 3 BEFORE she ever received a copy of the script. For a game as hard as RE:3, a Let's Play is fine. She also did Arya in that Eragon movie flop, and again she read the books before performing what turned out to be a minor part. Actors call this "method acting." 

 

This isn't going the extra mile. This is a basic expectation, and it reflects poorly on this Dina lady's character. And reminder: designing bosses is a rather important part of the game.

 

There. I compared a woman to a woman. Call me a sexist, I dare ye.



#8 SteveT

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 12:26 PM

OK, personal opinion: If you're going to make a game based off Mega Man, it's professional to SPEND SOME TIME PLAYING A MEGA MAN GAME. You don't necessarily have to "beat" a game, or even get that far into it, but some experience to tell you what the game represents for it's fans is a must. Especially for someone as integral as the BOSS DESIGNER.

 

For some perspective, Sienna Guillory--Jill Valentine in Resident Evil: Apocalypse--watched Let's Plays of Resident Evil 3 BEFORE she ever received a copy of the script. For a game as hard as RE:3, a Let's Play is fine. She also did Arya in that Eragon movie flop, and again she read the books before performing what turned out to be a minor part. Actors call this "method acting." 

 

This isn't going the extra mile. This is a basic expectation, and it reflects poorly on this Dina lady's character. And reminder: designing bosses is a rather important part of the game.

 

There. I compared a woman to a woman. Call me a sexist, I dare ye.

 

A couple key points.

 

1. Mighty Number 9 is totally not a Mega Man Game.  *ahem*

 

2. Is she designing the bosses behavior and fighting styles, or is this purely art design?  If she's just drawing pictures of bosses for other people to bring into the game, or even just making the sprites and animations as directed, then all she really needs is a supervisor.  I don't have enough information to tell if there's really a problem here.



#9 Egann

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 12:58 PM




A couple key points.

 

1. Mighty Number 9 is totally not a Mega Man Game.  *ahem*

 

2. Is she designing the bosses behavior and fighting styles, or is this purely art design?  If she's just drawing pictures of bosses for other people to bring into the game, or even just making the sprites and animations as directed, then all she really needs is a supervisor.  I don't have enough information to tell if there's really a problem here.

 

 

In any good game, a boss's attacks and art style are integrally linked. Here are some pictures of two of Dark Souls' bosses, Taurus Demon and Chaos Witch Quelaag.

 

Spoilers for: BIG PICTURES.

Spoiler

 

The Taurus Demon is dirt simple. You can tell exactly what he's going to do the instant he leaps in front of you: swing that big cudgel at you.

 

Quelaag's a bit more subtle, but the same principle applies. By making her spider body outright hideous and her torso and face breathtakingly hot, From Software made sure most players would ignore the spider and look gawk at her bare chest. If you're looking at her human chest, you're in luck: she telepaths her major attacks by curling her chest and charging them up.

 

See? Boss design and attack animations are one and the same.



#10 deep

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 01:28 PM

 

2. Is she designing the bosses behavior and fighting styles, or is this purely art design?  If she's just drawing pictures of bosses for other people to bring into the game, or even just making the sprites and animations as directed, then all she really needs is a supervisor.  I don't have enough information to tell if there's really a problem here.

 

 

She is officially the Community Manager, a fan liaison (and hasn't that gone swimmingly).

 

She was also an artist with the Japanese company that's producing the game before she was brought on to do the role. Because she's working a CM capacity, there has been no definite confirmation by anyone working on the game that any art she is producing will directly or indirectly affect the game.

 

The piece of correspondence from one of the bigger dudes in the company that SL linked suggests she will have no other role aside from liaising, regardless of what one of her earlier tweets may have stated.


Edited by deep, 17 December 2013 - 01:34 PM.


#11 JRPomazon

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 02:21 PM

The overall question: Should Beck be a girl?

 

No, Beck has been established as a male character and people seem to like that. If he was intended to be a girl I'm sure that would be his gender from the get go. But it all reminds me of the Doctor Who regeneration topic from a while back, who Matt Smith was going to be replaced by and all that. Some people were calling for a woman doctor. No matter what your opinion on gender, changing that around is a huge, huge thing. In some cases, it changes the context of the character completely.

 

 

On Dina, The Backers and Feminists:

 

A Feminist, from what I can gather, is someone who thinks women should have the same equal footing as everyone else. That's cool. I like that. I guess I'm a feminist too, who would have thunk it? I also like the idea of independent female characters that don't need to be defined by being "The Girl" or what have you. But it seems we have someone who got her job because she knew the right people and she was placed in a very sensitive role. It wasn't that she was a girl that the backers flipped, it was because she was talking about too many personal ideas on game design while posting art that clearly seemed to give the fearful the idea that there was some sort of intent involved. They over-reacted, much is the standard on the internet, and now we have a firestorm here. But ultimately, she can draw any character she wants in any way she wants, that doesn't mean she'll get her ideas approved right off. She works for people who are higher on the creative ladder, people who can very much say "This will work" and "This isn't very good, do it again but better." And from what I gathered, I don't think she has all that much creative control to begin with, she's just a mod and a design artists.

 

The Backers are acting like irrational children and that's where all the shit is coming from. If people could take a breather and relax for a bit they might realize the world isn't ending.


Edited by JRPomazon, 17 December 2013 - 02:23 PM.


#12 deep

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 02:51 PM

This nepotism thing is annoying. Yeah, she's dating a co-worker, but she was already employed by the company as an artist before she got this job. Fuck her for trying to move vertically or laterally within her own organization while happening to date a human she sort of likes that also works at her company. The vast majority of hires are internal.

 

And can we just back up and examine what this job position is? All these people claiming she's 'unqualified' for the Community Manager role. The job description is "Listen to community. Report to design team."

 

Not fucking rocket science.



#13 SL the Pyro

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 06:05 PM

I think having a more down-to-earth Community Manager like Dina is a good thing, really. Where things really starting going to the dogs though was when she lied/back-pedalled about not playing a Mega Man game, then locked her Twitter and deleted all evidence of this before unlocking it again (of course, as InternetAristocrat explained in the YouTube video, this doesn't work on the Internet). Separating her personal life from her professional life is a valid excuse, but it doesn't change the fact that she lied in the first place, and that's a big no-no as a Community Manager; the backers won't trust Centcom or even Inafune himself if they can't even trust the public liason.

 

Though as has been stated, the backers aren't really in the right either, mainly because of their general overreaction. It's nice to see that some of the sane ones are actually picking on Dina for the right reasons, but they're so heavily overshadowed by the anti-feminism stuff that people think they're just excuses. It's just a massive mess.



#14 Selena

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 06:06 PM

The only issue that is remotely worthy of suspicion is nepotism. But let's face it. There isn't a single career that isn't influenced by nepotism -- most companies more readily hire people who are "recommended" by their existing employees, and happily provide you with the paperwork necessary to file such a request. And most times, people use that to help get their spouses/relatives/buddies a job. Above other qualified candidates.

 

But so long as she can actually do her job, there's no reason to have a reaction any bigger than a 5 second eyebrow raise.

 

found a number of reasons why she shouldn't be on the job, the most glaring of which is that she has never played a Mega Man game. Other issues include an apparent lie to the community pertaining to this lack of experience (lying is a big no-no as a community manager)

 

 

Did she ever claim to have extensive experience with Mega Man? Not having much Mega Man experience is not a hindrance for her job description. Either as a liaison or as an artist. It's not even an automatic disqualification for being on the development team -- which she's not, so that's largely irrelevant.

 

 

 

 

As far as I can tell, the only things this woman has dare suggest is that:

 

1. Maybe the main character could be female for a change.

2. Give the supporting female character a more significant role than just "waiting at home base / staying in the kitchen."

3. And/or make that "stay in the kitchen" character a non-stereotypical female. Like a feisty tomboy. Just to change things up.

 

None of these things should be considered offensive. None of these things should be considered outlandish. None of these things should be causing an uproar, and all of the these are worthy of just as much consideration as any other suggestion. And you would be hard pressed to find a decent argument for outright slamming the door on those ideas. Especially when compared to suggestions that would change actual gameplay -- and none of these arguably do, except for maybe the second one.

 

The game is a new IP. It is still in early development. This is not a solidly established character with a genuine history of being "male." This is not like gender swapping Link or Mario. Literally nothing about this game would change if the main character was female other than giving it a nice little change of pace. So if the main character being female somehow bothers somebody, they may want to re-evaluate why. Because it's not at all about gameplay being altered.

 

If a female character somehow "ruins the immersion" for male players -- welcome to what women gamers have been experiencing since the dawn of gaming. Although that shouldn't even be a factor, either, since this isn't a game where the main character will have much personality to begin with.

 

 

 

Media in general is pretty bad about decent representation of female characters. But the videogame industry is especially sexist.  I remember reading through the Bioware forums a while back and seeing the most vitriolic, nonsensical bullshit about the female version of Commander Shepard and various other female characters in the Mass Effect franchise. Can you imagine if the gender-choice option had been removed from Mass Effect in early development, and the main character could have only been Femshep? The game itself would hardly be altered, but so many people would have lost their shit just because they would have to play as a female.

 

Worse yet, the sexism is so profound that they don't stop at bashing the idea of female leads -- they attack the actual person who suggests it. Harshly. In an unrelenting manner. And act like this.

 

 

 

I hope they make the main character female just to spite the assholes who are throwing a tantrum.



#15 Sir Deimos

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 06:16 PM

After she got the job she bought and played at least the numbered Megaman games... so... yanno there's that.

#16 Green Goblin

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 09:38 PM

I already chimed in on the Facebook post, but here:

I'M not against Dina. But I see what others might be thinking about her involvement. Anita Sarkeesian is the big feminist thing in gaming right now. So to put one's name out there in this field is to align with Sarkeesian unless stated otherwise in the minds of the interwebs. Guilty by association. Then there's the fact that she's not a Megaman player and is the girlfriend of one of the developers (which is how people are saying that she got her job). People found this out through her Twitter and when confronted about it, her response was to freeze her twitter and then delete the posts in question, without directly acknowledging any of the questions brought up to her. Not something that instills a lot of confidence.

Now, it's since been said that she's just the liaison between the fans on the forum and the developers, which seems to have quelled most of the issue.

I have no problem with her pushing for a female protagonist. I have no problem with her being the girlfriend of one of the developers, as she's still appears to be quite qualified to do the job. So I'll be interested in the final product no matter what they do.

 

I basically agree with Pomazon and Pyro.  The fanbase overreacted, but the developers shouldn't be surprised that there was a reaction. 

 



#17 Oberon Storm

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 10:39 PM

Why is it required that someone working on a game that is not Mega Man but only based on it and even then only "spiritually" have experience playing Mega Man? Whatever that really means all it reinforces for me is that this is NOT a Mega Man game. Even if it was a Mega Man title I would question that requirement. I'm sure it might help, but why completely necessary? Has there really never been game that had someone involved with its development that did not play whatever predecessor, spiritual or otherwise, that came before? 

 

I am also missing the point where she lied about anything. I saw where she Tweeted she had never played Mega Man. I also saw where she stated which Mega Man game was the best. I'm not making any connection to a lie. Hana mentioned she could have played something between the posts. Maybe she formed an opinion based on what others had told her. Not one of the best things to do, but it's not really a lie in any way.

 

The feminist thing is completely irrelevant to anything and changing the character to a female hurts nothing. Even if this game existed within the Mega Man universe all that would need changed is the name of the game. Oh look...

 

It also would not be the first time a male main character was replaced with a female character. It happens. Even in Doctor Who, in the episode "The Doctor's Wife", The Doctor mentions that another Time Lord had on more than occasion changed into a female. 

 

I'm not going to pretend to understand the exact motivation behind attacking or even just criticizing her. Not only does it all sound irrational to me, it sounds like a whole lot of nonsense about nothing. So she locked her Twitter account. I might have done the same had I woken up to see I am being unfairly attacked about what amounts to nothing.



#18 lord-of-shadow

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 09:16 PM

The whole thing is a non-issue that foaming-mouth internet lunatics are freaking out about because they're insane (and possibly chauvinistic, if the thing they're upset about is her feminist stance).

 

1. An artist does not need to play much of the genre they're in to do their job. They'll be better off if they do, but it's extremely commonplace for devs to work on games in genres or series that they don't know. Or even in genres or series that they actively dislike! On a big enough team that sort of thing is inevitable, and with a competent team, it's not a problem as long as the design team and the leadership are familiar with what they're making and have a healthy cycle of diration->feedback->iteration on any concept art that the character artists create. 

2. Nepotism. Sounds like she started dating a man she met at work, and then they managed to get onto the same project together. Also not unusual, also not a problem. The alternatives are to A) disqualify employee relationships, which is crappy, or B) limit someone's lateral job mobility within the company based on who they're dating. Which is also crap. As long as neither of them is managing the other or making the actual hiring decision, it should be fine.






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