22 replies to this topic

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Perhaps it's just me being late to the game, but in my attempt to create a piece of fan fiction (the same one I asked for help a few months back) I've hit a strange stumbling block. Perhaps it was just me being ambitious with the background, but the damned thing that ruins the entire thing is The Wind Waker. I'm explicitly setting the story in between OOT and TWW, because the plot fits there. Except TWW screws it up with the two Temples.

Getting aside the weirdness of having a Zora as Sage of the Earth, I've come across a few plot points that kind of made my head spin.

1. Why would the Master Sword be underneath Hyrule Castle? Surely, the Master Sword shouldn't exist in this timeline, because Link took it back into the past with him.
2. Why exactly would a hero not have appeared? Skyward Sword, from what little I've read explicitly states that Ganondorf/Vaati/what have you is a curse against Link and Zelda. If Link doesn't exist in the Adult Timeline, because he went back in time and and into a different timeline, then surely, that would mean the curse is broken because there's no Link? And if one wasn't reincarnated, then how come there's a reincarnation of Link in The Wind Waker?
3. Why exactly is the Link in TWW not a reincarnation of previous Links?

[MikePetersSucks]

1. Why would the Master Sword be underneath Hyrule Castle? Surely, the Master Sword shouldn't exist in this timeline, because Link took it back into the past with him.

 

Not quite. OOT's timetravel was pretty much entirely through sending Link's mind back in time or knocking him out for 7 years. No physical materials were transferring.

 

2. Why exactly would a hero not have appeared? Skyward Sword, from what little I've read explicitly states that Ganondorf/Vaati/what have you is a curse against Link and Zelda. If Link doesn't exist in the Adult Timeline, because he went back in time and and into a different timeline, then surely, that would mean the curse is broken because there's no Link? And if one wasn't reincarnated, then how come there's a reincarnation of Link in The Wind Waker?

 

My personal interpretation is that since Link's spirit traveled from one timeline to the other when the split happened, that the Adult Timeline had no Link to reincarnate. The Wind Waker's Link is a new one that just sort of popped out of the aether to fill the gap, which is why he needs to jump through all these hoops to be PERSONALLY ACKNOWLEDGED by the Goddesses.

 

Either that, or a Link did appear, but failed, and thus didn't go down in history. Take your pick.

 

3. Why exactly is the Link in TWW not a reincarnation of previous Links?

 

See above. He seems to be a new soul made to fill an old role. And this may be exactly why the conclusion of his quest ended in the abolition o the old times and traditions.

[Hana-Nezumi]

1. We know that when Link traveled back in time, the Triforce of Courage split from him, so it's not much of a stretch to assume that the Master Sword did too and remained in the adult timeline. The Master Sword he has in the past is the one from the past. Alternately, it's possible that a new Master Sword was forged.

2. Demise's curse is on "those who share the blood of the goddess and the spirit of the hero" and it is not explicitly stated that every evil that befalls Hyrule is a result of the curse. Even if it was Demise that allowed Ganon to escape the Sacred Realm, Zelda is still in the timeline, so it doesn't matter if there's a Link or not.

3. The Links are not reincarnations. It's the destiny to take on the role of hero that is taken on by different people throughout Hyrule's history. Some of them are descendants of previous Links, and some are not.

[Masamune]

It's worth noting that even though the King, Jabun and the others don't acknowledge Link as the "Hero of Time", Ganondorf does. And so it leads to questioning whether or not he is truly another incarnation of the original hero. I mean, who would know better than Ganon?

 

Which is probably a discussion on its own over whether who is more right. But if you're writing a story, then that's something to consider.

[Fin]

^ But Ganondorf's entire arc in that game was about him being blinded by nostalgia, so...

[Masamune]

And Daphnes admitted he was suffering from the same thing, so...

 

(I realize there's not a point there.)

 

Still, when it comes down to it, Ganon's my main man. My go to guy. My boss. If I'm gonna believe anyone, it's gonna be the Dorf. The Dorf knows what he's talking about.

Edited by Masamune, 15 September 2013 - 04:08 PM.

[Fin]

I suppose anybody called The Dorf must know what he's talking about.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Not quite. OOT's timetravel was pretty much entirely through sending Link's mind back in time or knocking him out for 7 years. No physical materials were transferring.

Really? Could have sworn there was at least something like the Mirror Shield.
 

Which is probably a discussion on its own over whether who is more right. But if you're writing a story, then that's something to consider.

Not really. All that doesn't really impact on my story at all. It was just something I was wondering about when I passed it.

[MikePetersSucks]

Really? Could have sworn there was at least something like the Mirror Shield.

 

I THINK the Mirror Shield was gained in the past? My OOT memory is crud, but Gameplay/Story Segregation isn't new.

 

Still, when it comes down to it, Ganon's my main man. My go to guy. My boss. If I'm gonna believe anyone, it's gonna be the Dorf. The Dorf knows what he's talking about.

 

The same guy that claims the Gods maliciously abandoned the gods and said the seas had no fish to catch when they totally do? The same guy who says he won't kill a couple kids after getting the Triforce out of them and then throws a tantrum to murder them immediately after not getting his way? The same guy who specifically targeted any girl with pointed ears and never even got his intended target through that method?

 

And Daphnes admitted he was suffering from the same thing, so...

Daphnes admitted he was suffering from the same thing in the same breath he uses to denounce the past utterly and wish for hope for the future.

 

And while he does suffer from nostalgia from the olden times, he does this by imposing the role as Princess Zelda on Tetra, a role she is very uncomfortable with, while Ganondorf imposes the role of the Hero of Time on Link without even trying to acknowledge him by his own merits. Daphnes atleast gives Link his own title, and he's the one who watched TWW Link's development from start to finish. He'd KNOW, right? Ganondorf was around Link for a combined total of like...what, an hour? Two hours, maybe?

[Masamune]

Still, when it comes down to it, Ganon's my main man. My go to guy. My boss. If I'm gonna believe anyone, it's gonna be the Dorf. The Dorf knows what he's talking about.

 

The same guy that claims the Gods maliciously abandoned the gods and said the seas had no fish to catch when they totally do? The same guy who says he won't kill a couple kids after getting the Triforce out of them and then throws a tantrum to murder them immediately after not getting his way? The same guy who specifically targeted any girl with pointed ears and never even got his intended target through that method?

 

Well, Gods abandon gods all the time. Why else would Zeus totally kill his dad? Anyway, the lack of fish is collaborated in other parts of the game, if I recall correctly. The Fishman are the exceptions, but nobody seems to be in a hurry to try to eat them. There's also Gyorgs, but... yeah.

 

Ganondorf didn't want to kill them until Daphnes stole his wish and pretty much robbed the Dorf of everything he had been working towards. He'd have been happy to let Link and Zelda be subjects in his radical dark kingdom. But hey, if he can't have his Hyrule, then why should they get anything? 

 

His third attempt netted him Tetra, but Helmaroc King didn't anticipate pirates with a catapult. If not for Link's intervention, Ganondorf would have succeeded in the opening of the game. So I'd say he was doing pretty good. 

 

 

 

And Daphnes admitted he was suffering from the same thing, so...

Daphnes admitted he was suffering from the same thing in the same breath he uses to denounce the past utterly and wish for hope for the future.

 

And while he does suffer from nostalgia from the olden times, he does this by imposing the role as Princess Zelda on Tetra, a role she is very uncomfortable with, while Ganondorf imposes the role of the Hero of Time on Link without even trying to acknowledge him by his own merits. Daphnes atleast gives Link his own title, and he's the one who watched TWW Link's development from start to finish. He'd KNOW, right? Ganondorf was around Link for a combined total of like...what, an hour? Two hours, maybe?

 

 

Yes, but I specifically said I had no point when I said this beforehand, which means your point is pointless! Ha!

[Fin]

Not sure if this exchange makes me happy or sad that Zelda Storyline is basically dead.

[Masamune]

it's fun to pretend like we have things to debate still. 

[Arturo]

 

Really? Could have sworn there was at least something like the Mirror Shield.

 

I THINK the Mirror Shield was gained in the past? My OOT memory is crud, but Gameplay/Story Segregation isn't new.

 

Nearly. You gain the Silver Gauntlets in the past, the Mirror Shield in the future. It is of note, no item gained in the future can be used in the past (except for the spells and bottles), but you can use a fair few of past items in the future. Link brings the items from the past to the future, but not all the way round, as only his consciousness travels in time

[MikePetersSucks]

Well, Gods abandon gods all the time. Why else would Zeus totally kill his dad?

 

Plrt, that part was a typo. x_x

 

Anyway, the lack of fish is collaborated in other parts of the game, if I recall correctly. The Fishman are the exceptions, but nobody seems to be in a hurry to try to eat them. There's also Gyorgs, but... yeah.

 

I would argue the exact opposite. Those guys have got to be eating something, same with the seagulls. And quite frankly, no island in the game looks like it's producing enough food to be feeding anyone sufficiently, even if we ignore the meat shortage there'd be if there were no fish to catch.

 

I'm sorry, I just have to call bullshit on this one. It's allegory at best and Ganondorf is incredibly biased.

 

Ganondorf didn't want to kill them until Daphnes stole his wish and pretty much robbed the Dorf of everything he had been working towards. He'd have been happy to let Link and Zelda be subjects in his radical dark kingdom. But hey, if he can't have his Hyrule, then why should they get anything?

I know THAT, I'm just saying that his childish behavior means it is completely erroneous to treat him as if he has the mental faculties to be judging things like Link's identity properly. He's being a child, and children have the tendency to nostalgically want to regress to a familiar time instead of adapting to a new one, and if they can't have things exactly as they used to be, they have an 'all-or-nothing' tantrum. He wants to utterly remake the OOT era and relive his moments of glory and if he can't do that he's just going to smash everyone's toys.

 

This is not a man who can actually tell if Link is the reincarnation of the Hero of Time. This is a man who WANTS him to be this. Who NEEDS him to be. Who won't accept any other possibility because it doesn't fit his personal narrative of how the world should work.

 

Yes, but I specifically said I had no point when I said this beforehand, which means your point is pointless! Ha!

There's no need to be a pedantic asshole, bro. That comment was pretty rude. :l

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Not sure if this exchange makes me happy or sad that Zelda Storyline is basically dead.

Not quite, there's still huge plotholes all over the place. I mean, I can't even place the Earth Temple and the Wind Temple from TWW. Zeldapedia and Zeldawiki both suggest they might be similar to the ones in Skyward Sword (Earth Temple and Skyview Temple), but that would put the Earth Temple in Death Mountain (or so I've read), which would mean Laruto as a Sage of Earth would make no sense whatsoever.

Then there's the case of, what is Dragon Roost Island? Is it really the top of Death Mountain and if so, where are the Gorons?

Did all the Zora become Rito or are there still Zora in Labrynna? Or does the Great Sea cover Labrynna as well?

Not all these questions can be answered, though, so there's no real point in asking them.

Edited by Wolf O'Donnell, 17 September 2013 - 01:48 PM.

[Masamune]

 

Anyway, the lack of fish is collaborated in other parts of the game, if I recall correctly. The Fishman are the exceptions, but nobody seems to be in a hurry to try to eat them. There's also Gyorgs, but... yeah.

 

I would argue the exact opposite. Those guys have got to be eating something, same with the seagulls. And quite frankly, no island in the game looks like it's producing enough food to be feeding anyone sufficiently, even if we ignore the meat shortage there'd be if there were no fish to catch.

 

I'm sorry, I just have to call bullshit on this one. It's allegory at best and Ganondorf is incredibly biased.

 

That's a problem of scale in video games. I refuse to believe that there are only like, fifty Hylians spread out throughout the Great Sea. Wouldn't they be all inbred by now? We do see some hints of agriculture. Pigs seem to be quite common and used for their meat. We also see a windmill, so we know they're going to grinding grain or something. Nintendo just didn't bother to add tons and tons of fields for food to be grown because it was focusing on all these tiny islands. But I think, in universe, these islands all have to be a bit larger to sustain any kind of society. Anything else is just silly.

 

As for the sea gulls... have you ever been to the beach? Those things will eat anything. Including fruit on top of your head, as it turns out. 

 

 

 

 

Ganondorf didn't want to kill them until Daphnes stole his wish and pretty much robbed the Dorf of everything he had been working towards. He'd have been happy to let Link and Zelda be subjects in his radical dark kingdom. But hey, if he can't have his Hyrule, then why should they get anything?

I know THAT, I'm just saying that his childish behavior means it is completely erroneous to treat him as if he has the mental faculties to be judging things like Link's identity properly. He's being a child, and children have the tendency to nostalgically want to regress to a familiar time instead of adapting to a new one, and if they can't have things exactly as they used to be, they have an 'all-or-nothing' tantrum. He wants to utterly remake the OOT era and relive his moments of glory and if he can't do that he's just going to smash everyone's toys.

 

This is not a man who can actually tell if Link is the reincarnation of the Hero of Time. This is a man who WANTS him to be this. Who NEEDS him to be. Who won't accept any other possibility because it doesn't fit his personal narrative of how the world should work.

 

I don't know that I'd call it childish, but he'd certainly given into despair and madness at the end. For me, though, it's the heart of the matter. Throughout the entire game, nobody ever thinks Link can really do this. Sure, they go with him anyway, but only because he's all they've got. The quarterback is off the field and all they have left is this runt. They're still going to finish the game, but in the back of their minds, they're all pretty sure they're screwed. Unlike Ocarina of Time, Link doesn't have any great destiny backing him up. There's no "Well obviously he's the Hero." He has to go through a trial to prove himself. He isn't GIVEN the Triforce of Courage, he has to earn it, piece by piece. At no point in his entire quest is he ever handed the Hero's destiny on a silver platter. 

 

And it's at the end, after all the trials, after scaling Ganondorf's great tower and defeating his puppet that Ganondorf acknowledges him as the Hero of Time reborn. And in a sense, maybe at this point, he is, the Hero of Time reborn. He wasn't before, but through the sheer grit of his teeth and iron hard will, he achieved that right and destiny despite the fact no one ever really believed in him. So I'm not exactly hardcore sold on the idea of him being literally a reincarnation of Ocarina of Time Link - because as has been suggested, time travel shenanigans likely removed him from the cycle. But he is, effectively the Hero of Time reborn. Not because of some special destiny that he inherited when he was born, but because of a special destiny he seized with his own sweat and blood. He's recreated the Hero's spirit, which can now be passed on to his successor in Spirit Tracks. 

 

And that's why Wind Waker is the best coming of age story in the entire series. Because he did it all on his own without having to ride the coat tails of destiny. Which is fitting in a world where Ganondorf claims the gods have forsaken them.

 

 Yes, but I specifically said I had no point when I said this beforehand, which means your point is pointless! Ha!

There's no need to be a pedantic asshole, bro. That comment was pretty rude. :l

 

 

I was being tongue-in-cheek with my previous comment. I figured the fact I was referring to him as "The Dorf" meant I wasn't trying to really construct an argument about Daphnes having the same hang up as Ganon. So my point isn't to be rude, just be like, "Yeah, I know, I don't disagree."

[MikePetersSucks]

That's a problem of scale in video games. I refuse to believe that there are only like, fifty Hylians spread out throughout the Great Sea. Wouldn't they be all inbred by now? We do see some hints of agriculture. Pigs seem to be quite common and used for their meat. We also see a windmill, so we know they're going to grinding grain or something. Nintendo just didn't bother to add tons and tons of fields for food to be grown because it was focusing on all these tiny islands. But I think, in universe, these islands all have to be a bit larger to sustain any kind of society. Anything else is just silly.

 

As for the sea gulls... have you ever been to the beach? Those things will eat anything. Including fruit on top of your head, as it turns out.

 

Regardless, very, VERY large creatures live in the ocean. They have to be eating something.

 

I just call bullshit because the ocean covering Hyrule connects to other bodies of water that DO have fish in them; why wouldn't they have filled that ecosystem?

 

I don't know that I'd call it childish, but he'd certainly given into despair and madness at the end. For me, though, it's the heart of the matter. Throughout the entire game, nobody ever thinks Link can really do this. Sure, they go with him anyway, but only because he's all they've got. The quarterback is off the field and all they have left is this runt. They're still going to finish the game, but in the back of their minds, they're all pretty sure they're screwed. Unlike Ocarina of Time, Link doesn't have any great destiny backing him up. There's no "Well obviously he's the Hero." He has to go through a trial to prove himself. He isn't GIVEN the Triforce of Courage, he has to earn it, piece by piece. At no point in his entire quest is he ever handed the Hero's destiny on a silver platter. 

 

And it's at the end, after all the trials, after scaling Ganondorf's great tower and defeating his puppet that Ganondorf acknowledges him as the Hero of Time reborn. And in a sense, maybe at this point, he is, the Hero of Time reborn. He wasn't before, but through the sheer grit of his teeth and iron hard will, he achieved that right and destiny despite the fact no one ever really believed in him. So I'm not exactly hardcore sold on the idea of him being literally a reincarnation of Ocarina of Time Link - because as has been suggested, time travel shenanigans likely removed him from the cycle. But he is, effectively the Hero of Time reborn. Not because of some special destiny that he inherited when he was born, but because of a special destiny he seized with his own sweat and blood. He's recreated the Hero's spirit, which can now be passed on to his successor in Spirit Tracks. 

 

And that's why Wind Waker is the best coming of age story in the entire series. Because he did it all on his own without having to ride the coat tails of destiny. Which is fitting in a world where Ganondorf claims the gods have forsaken them.

 

On this we can agree on. I would just argue for semantic purposes that it's more appropriate to call him the Hero of Winds instead of the new Hero of Time BECAUSE he's not piggybacking on the coattails of destiny. Just for the sake of personal clarity.

 

I was being tongue-in-cheek with my previous comment. I figured the fact I was referring to him as "The Dorf" meant I wasn't trying to really construct an argument about Daphnes having the same hang up as Ganon. So my point isn't to be rude, just be like, "Yeah, I know, I don't disagree."

 

The delivery was still quite rude, as you delivered it in a way that insinuated that I was wasting my time talking to you.

[Masamune]

I went to explore the script. There's some conflicting information on it: 

 

Lemme ask you something real quick:  who wanders around on a fishless sea? 

 

I'll tell you who, bub: Only pirates, monsters, and treasure-hunters like ourselves! And maybe some other things that I've never heard of...

They are vast seas...  None can swim across them...  They yield no fish to catch...

 

 

And yet, there are many references to Outset Island being a fishing village and Orca himself is a fisherman. So just looking at that, it's hard to know what we're supposed to think. Personally, I like that it's a fishless ocean. I mean, think about it. Since Link's Awakening, fishing has been a staple of the series. Sure, it's not in EVERY game, but it's a pretty common thing to see. And yet, in the one game where everything is ocean, we don't fish? Heck, we even have the Zora evolving into birds! What's up with that?

 

And I think it's because it's supposed to imply a kind of wrongness to the ocean. There are no fish because the kingdom of Hyrule underneath is corrupting the ocean. Perhaps its Ganondorf's evil radiating from inside its prison or just some weird magical backlash from that prison down there. We don't really know, but the point is, the story is communicating to us very deliberately that the Great Sea is not a normal ocean. And while there are certainly big things living in there, let's not forget that blue whales survive solely on krill, a creature incredibly small in comparison to it. Those Giant Octos, Seahats, and Jabun could very well be surviving on things just plain incompatible with human (and zora!) diets.

 

As for Outset Island... well, maybe the name itself is a clue. It's on the very edge of the map and very disconnected from everything. Its location may mean its local sea life is not affected by whatever's being caused by the submerged kingdom. After all, one of the trading quest items is a Fisherman's flag, which is very explicitly noted as coming from a foreigner. In other words, someone like Zunari who hails from a part of the ocean that isn't under some weird magical curse. 

Edited by Masamune, 18 September 2013 - 10:26 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

And yet, there are many references to Outset Island being a fishing village and Orca himself is a fisherman. So just looking at that, it's hard to know what we're supposed to think. Personally, I like that it's a fishless ocean. I mean, think about it. Since Link's Awakening, fishing has been a staple of the series. Sure, it's not in EVERY game, but it's a pretty common thing to see. And yet, in the one game where everything is ocean, we don't fish? Heck, we even have the Zora evolving into birds! What's up with that?

In fairness, atleast the Zora thing can be explained as trying to keep them from swimming down to Old Hyrule.

 

In any case, I take actions of the character over dialog. People fish and get things, therefore fish exist. Creatures live in the sea and subsist adequately in it's ecosystem, therefore fish.

 

And I think it's because it's supposed to imply a kind of wrongness to the ocean. There are no fish because the kingdom of Hyrule underneath is corrupting the ocean. Perhaps its Ganondorf's evil radiating from inside its prison or just some weird magical backlash from that prison down there. We don't really know, but the point is, the story is communicating to us very deliberately that the Great Sea is not a normal ocean. And while there are certainly big things living in there, let's not forget that blue whales survive solely on krill, a creature incredibly small in comparison to it. Those Giant Octos, Seahats, and Jabun could very well be surviving on things just plain incompatible with human (and zora!) diets.

 

And yet, people fish and have fish bait.

 

Now, granted, there's probably a way to reconcile these facts. What if there are no SAFE fish to catch and eat, for instance?

 

As for Outset Island... well, maybe the name itself is a clue. It's on the very edge of the map and very disconnected from everything. Its location may mean its local sea life is not affected by whatever's being caused by the submerged kingdom. After all, one of the trading quest items is a Fisherman's flag, which is very explicitly noted as coming from a foreigner. In other words, someone like Zunari who hails from a part of the ocean that isn't under some weird magical curse.

 

That's not what Outset means, though. It means the beginning of something, like a journey. And if fish exist at the outliers of the ocean, then they can exist anywhere. I'm not accepting Ganondorf's corrupting presence as an excuse because he was clearly trying to blame the Gods here and is emphatically supposed to be wrong about what he's accusing them of.

[Masamune]

Well, the idea of no 'safe fish' to eat is where I was trying to drive at. But that still doesn't solve anything. Why would people take up fishing if its an ultimately futile task? We see all these signs and mentions of fishing, but it seems like it's supposed to be a big plot point that there is no fishing. There's really no way to conclusively argue one way or another, but it feels like the idea of a 'fishless sea' may have been a concept that emerged later in development. We have all these incidents of where fishing is supposed to be happening. 

 

 

In any case, I take actions of the character over dialog. People fish and get things, therefore fish exist. Creatures live in the sea and subsist adequately in it's ecosystem, therefore fish.

 

 

But we don't have actions of the character to work with. It's all dialogue. The only action we do have are those four treasure hunters (the quote I used earier) who explicitly say they are a rare sight on the sea because people generally have no reason to be on the ocean (except presumably to travel) - but these four characters do, because they're looking for lost treasure. And aside from these weird instances of background designs and mentions of character occupations, we never actually see anyone fishing. 

[Wolf O'Donnell]

You know, it's still kind of weird that the gods managed to flood Hyrule. The kingdom appears to be landlocked, so you'd think they'd actually end up flooding a good deal more than just Hyrule. And the water reaches up so high. It's an absurd amount of water when you think about it. The gods must have done a huge amount of land-mass shifting. Just dumping water down wouldn't do the trick.

[Hana-Nezumi]

I always thought that calling it a "fishless sea" was just exaggeration. Meaning there ARE fish, but they're extremely scarce.

You know, it's still kind of weird that the gods managed to flood Hyrule. The kingdom appears to be landlocked, so you'd think they'd actually end up flooding a good deal more than just Hyrule. And the water reaches up so high. It's an absurd amount of water when you think about it. The gods must have done a huge amount of land-mass shifting. Just dumping water down wouldn't do the trick.

It's not that odd. In most games, Hyrule is surrounded by either mountain ranges or oceans on all sides, so it's entirely possible that the region has a low enough elevation for it to work.

Edited by Hana-Nezumi, 19 September 2013 - 05:02 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Well, the idea of no 'safe fish' to eat is where I was trying to drive at. But that still doesn't solve anything. Why would people take up fishing if its an ultimately futile task?

 

"Fish we can't eat" doesn't mean "Fish we can't use the parts of."

 

But we don't have actions of the character to work with. It's all dialogue. The only action we do have are those four treasure hunters (the quote I used earier) who explicitly say they are a rare sight on the sea because people generally have no reason to be on the ocean (except presumably to travel)

 

 

Psst, most fishing can be done without so much as going a half-mile from an island.

 

You know, it's still kind of weird that the gods managed to flood Hyrule. The kingdom appears to be landlocked, so you'd think they'd actually end up flooding a good deal more than just Hyrule. And the water reaches up so high. It's an absurd amount of water when you think about it. The gods must have done a huge amount of land-mass shifting. Just dumping water down wouldn't do the trick.

 

 

I like to think they also SUNK Hyrule, because like, otherwise people would start having severe oxygen problems eventually.