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#1 Selena

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:21 PM

....Aaaanyway

 

 

 

A few years ago, you may remember the revolution in Egypt which kickstarted the "Arab Spring" movement.

 

Egyptians celebrated, yet not long after their first democratic election, things started to go downhill. The new president began to greatly abuse his power, at least in the eyes of his opponents. In principle, it's similar to Obama voters growing to greatly dislike his subsequent positions (or his lack of initiative in ending existing positions that voters had strongly disagreed with). In Egypt, however, the tensions and the changes are more extreme.

 

As of just a few hours ago, the Egyptians ousted the president they elected into office after the original revolution. The military is temporarily in charge -- once again -- until another election can be held.

 

Which begs the question: Do revolutions, on average, actually work?

 

 

 

 

Americans are more or less taught, for obvious reasons, that armed revolutions are the only thing to do when you feel that you're being ruled by a tyrant. Indeed, there are plenty of people who would like to dissolve our existing government due to its corruption.

 

Of course, our fascination with heroic revolution tends to ignore a lot of details. Like how a good chunk of Americans at the time didn't even really care to revolt. Or how most revolutions in history have just ushered in eras of violence and instability. Or how France, our "brother" in democratic reform, went through one revolution and government after another throughout the entire course of the 19th century. Often quite messily (seriously, go read the lyrics to their national anthem, those fuckers are murder-happy). Or how our glorious declaration of independence may have just been an unnecessary temperamental flare-up, given how Canada is a-okay and still a member of the Commonwealth.

 

 

So.

 

Do you think armed revolutions are a suitable "last resort" for change?

Do you think that there's a good chance they can be successful and stable in the long run?

Do you see the Arab Spring nations stabilizing any time soon, or is this all just pointless?

If the US were to have another one, would it have a snowball's chance in hell of working?

Are diplomatic and legal reforms the only proper way to change things?



#2 Egann

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 06:07 PM

The thing with revolutions: they require PHENOMENAL leadership. The people in charge have to be excellent rhetoricians, strategists, thinkers, have extensive connections, be incurably benevolent, and basically know what they're doing. In Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Egypt, no one knew what they were doing. In so many words, the people of these nations don't know enough about how to govern themselves and think critically to maintain a democracy.
 
Makes sense, seeing how Americans are marginal at this on a good day.
 
The reason the American revolution worked so well was that Masonic taverns had become hotbeds for political and moral discussion, much like online forums are now. In case you ever wondered why so many founding fathers were Freemasons, this is why.
 
 
Having a revolution in America would be...difficult. It's now legal to use weaponized drones on American citizens, so the incumbents wouldn't play fair. It would take secret, encrypted communication over the internet, deceptions within deceptions, false trails, planted leads...it's possible, but I wouldn't be caught dead trying. It was hard enough to beat the British--who were used to lining up in open European fields--by hiding in the trees. An armed uprising which is not very carefully organized, informed, and knows exactly what it's doing is on the ragged edge of suicide.
 
That said, what America needs isn't a revolution, but a constitutional convention. After 200 years of experience we know that the two party system does not work, that government is far too prone to growing too large and taxing too heavily, that politicians will bury activist legislation in thousand page bills, that our military will permanently classify things individual citizen need to know to cast an informed vote.....And that's not even half the problems I can come up with.
 
Forcing a constitutional convention, however, is much easier than making a revolution. You just have to make a conscious effort to take things in that direction and think about what you want the new government to be structured like. In so many words, you have to write your own constitution before you internalize the problems and how to fix them.
 
In fact, here's a little bit of how mine would work.
 
I replaced the executive branch with a triumverate. The executive branch's big problem is that it is winner-take-all and that serves as a blockade, keeping new parties from entering the political system. Basically, I wanted to get rid of the "splitting the vote" problems that Ralph Nader and Ron Paul caused by being third party or independents.
 
My triumberate has four positions, one from each of four parties. President, Senate Adjudicator, House Adjudicator, and Undersecretary. Each voter can only vote for one party/ candidate. The one with the most votes becomes the President, the next the Senate Adjudicator, and so on until the fourth gets the Undersecretary slot. One party's power is limited because the most it can win is the presidency, and that by forfeiting control of the legislature.
 
Meanwhile at the bottom, the Undersecretary position (which is basically a newcomer slot) can be won with 5-15% of the vote, making it very easy for new parties to come and go.
 
Voters only get one vote out of the four races for a reason: it reduces the rewards for blindly voting for a party. The optimum use of the one vote is as a vote against, so the race and party to use it on will constantly switch around, thus breaking party loyalty.
 
I'm actually a bit proud of this setup. Not perfect, to be sure, but pretty good for an amature.(Read: I lack feedback. Poke holes in, plz.)
 
EDIT: spoiler tags seem not to be working.

 


Edited by Egann, 04 July 2013 - 06:08 PM.


#3 Toan

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 11:23 PM

And now Egann posts his plans to overthrow the United States government.

Great job Egann now we're under even more NSA scrutiny, jeez.

#4 Doctor Pogo

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 04:16 AM

 

My triumberate has four positions, one from each of four parties. President, Senate Adjudicator, House Adjudicator, and Undersecretary. Each voter can only vote for one party/ candidate. The one with the most votes becomes the President, the next the Senate Adjudicator, and so on until the fourth gets the Undersecretary slot. One party's power is limited because the most it can win is the presidency, and that by forfeiting control of the legislature.

 

My worry about this is that it essentially takes the power from the final public vote and transfers it to the party nominating committees.  If each party nominates one candidate, if there are four parties in the race it means all of them are going to get one of the jobs.  So all the vote decides is what order they go in.  The nominating committee gets to decide who has a chance at the job and who doesn't, which is a much more powerful decision.  So, instead of weakening the party system, you have actually strengthened it.

 

It does mean that maybe the Greens and the Libertarians or some other underdog party could finally get a spot at the table, but in the end who gets the spot is not decided by the voters, it's decided by the party.  That's essentially how it is now, of course, but made worse by removing the meaningfulness of the public vote.

 

 

I do totally agree about needing a new constitutional convention, though.  I would take it a step further.  A new convention, a new constitution, every fifty years.  Trying to reconcile centuries-old documents with the realities of the modern world is becoming more untenable every year, in all kinds of ways, but politically it is especially painful.  If there was a new constitutional convention every fifty years, the government could be fluid, there could be adaptation and growth and experimentation, and there'd be a natural check against the buildup of corruption that occurs over time in long-term institutions.  And fifty years means that most everybody would have a convention occur once during their adult life.

 

I would also put an expiration date on every single piece of legislation.  Ten years, and the law expires.  Better replace it, maybe change some parts that didn't work so well the last time.  This solves many problems, but I've got two big ones particularly in mind: the massive and incomprehensible size of the federal statutes, and the amount of time legislators waste on frivolous bills about things that need no legislation.  If every law expires in ten years, there will be a natural limit to the size of the federal lawbook, and there will be real, important laws expiring every year that need to be given serious debate and replaced or changed or eliminated.  Lawmakers will have work to do, and no time for the nonsense they fight about now.  Every ten years, the tax code has to be redone - think that'll make it more simple?  Plus term limits for everybody - the people that wrote the law the last time won't be there when it comes back around the next.

 

The entire government, in structure, content, and personnel, would regularly roll over, and the issues it spent the most time working on would be the fundamental ones, pruning and building on the mistakes and achievements of the past, keeping the discussion focused on the nature and purpose of government itself and how to do it.  Nobody gets a vise grip on power for long, and nobody gets to cruise by and make no important moves.

 

Right now, we have a government that cannot learn things.  It can't adapt, because the effort required to adapt the huge institutions involved is too tremendous.  A fluid government can learn, it can try new things and isn't tied to huge, immovable pillars of tradition.

 

 

So, anyway, the original point of the thread...

 

I think revolutions are an absolute necessity for progress.  Institutions tend to get more corrupt and more inefficient the longer they continue, and it's important to turn them over once in a while just to keep things moving at all.  Ideally, this would be a simple, bloodless, natural thing.  But humans are suckers for tradition.  People love tradition, they get attached to tradition, they will defend tradition with violence.  So sometimes shaking up tradition includes violence.

 

Thinking of revolution as a concept rather than a movement, though - meaning, just the idea of fluidity, of things changing - I think it should be the first resort, rather than the last.  If thine government offends thee, pluck it out.  Or vote it out.  Again, I come back to term limits and statute limits and such.  Things need to roll over.

 

Now, armed revolution.  That's a different ball of wax.  Armed revolution should certainly be a last resort.  A good solution to a problem never involves violence.  But sometimes an acceptable one does.  If all the good solutions fail, and the change must still be made... what solutions are acceptable?

 

I can't speak to the Arab Spring nations.  I don't know the situations - I shamefully acknowledge my first-world privilege, being able to not know the troubles of less stable nations.  So, I'll speak of the world I know - would any kind of revolution at all work in America?  I don't know.  America is not just tied to traditions and institutions, it's chained to them.  None of the ideas I floated above are ever going to fly in this country as far as I can tell.  I would love to have a new constitutional convention and a new beginning.  I don't have much hope of that being accomplished in the near-distance, without major shifts in the nature of our relationship to our traditions.



#5 J-Roc

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 11:40 AM

I got totally fascinated by this aside from Pogo. I think you make some great points but I also believe that the constant factor of voter apathy takes away the broadhandness by which you and Egann illustrated your systems. I truly believe that a large chunk of the 1st world population would rather be lazy and don't give a fuck whether they are oppressed or not.



#6 Doctor Pogo

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 05:24 PM

I got totally fascinated by this aside from Pogo. I think you make some great points but I also believe that the constant factor of voter apathy takes away the broadhandness by which you and Egann illustrated your systems. I truly believe that a large chunk of the 1st world population would rather be lazy and don't give a fuck whether they are oppressed or not.

 

Oh, yeah, you're totally right.  And the fewer voters that care, the more any government will lean towards tyranny.  So, yeah, THANKS, AMERICA.



#7 Egann

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 11:07 AM

And now Egann posts his plans to overthrow the United States government.

Great job Egann now we're under even more NSA scrutiny, jeez.

I would like to remind Mr. X from the NSA that amending the Constitution is a known and well exercised legal process.

 

 

 

My worry about this is that it essentially takes the power from the final public vote and transfers it to the party nominating committees.  If each party nominates one candidate, if there are four parties in the race it means all of them are going to get one of the jobs.  So all the vote decides is what order they go in.  The nominating committee gets to decide who has a chance at the job and who doesn't, which is a much more powerful decision.  So, instead of weakening the party system, you have actually strengthened it.

Since when do parties get to nominate candidates via committee? High office nominations are done via caucuses, or at least the ones in the U.S. In fact, it's a major incumbent advantage that you likely don't have to have a caucus race airing your dirty laundry. 

 

But basically my goal was to undermine party loyalty. If your party consistently wins the race, it's not at the complete detriment of other opinions: you are rewarded more or less for the share of votes you received, and not your status as winner or looser. It doesn't do that perfectly, but it's a start.

 

 

 

(*a lot of interesting things*)

The big lesson from the past 250 years is that democracy needs to be constantly rewriting its constitution, or at least thinking about re-writing it. As it turns out, simply being able to change something if it's not working isn't good enough. We need the rules to be constantly reevaluated. If they're not working they need to be removed. If they are working, we can still improve them based on our experiences of how they worked before.

 

 

I got totally fascinated by this aside from Pogo. I think you make some great points but I also believe that the constant factor of voter apathy takes away the broadhandness by which you and Egann illustrated your systems. I truly believe that a large chunk of the 1st world population would rather be lazy and don't give a fuck whether they are oppressed or not.

Uh, it's been that way since the beginning of history. 

 

Still, people usually ignore that the political system creates opinion as much as the other way around. Change the rules people live under and you indirectly change their opinions.


Edited by Egann, 09 July 2013 - 11:08 AM.





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