13 replies to this topic

[Steel Samurai]

Interesting post on tumblr.

 

“I asked all of the gay male students in the room to raise their hand if in the past week they touched a woman’s body without her consent. After a moment of hesitation, all of the hands of the gay men in the room went up. I then asked the same gay men to raise their hand if in the past week they offered a woman unsolicited advice about how to “improve” her body or her fashion. Once again, after a moment of hesitation, all of the hands in the room went up. 

These questions came after a brief exploration of gay men’s relationship to American fashion and women’s bodies. That dialogue included recognizing that gay men in the United States are often hailed as the experts of women’s fashion and by proxy women’s bodies. In addition to this there is a dominant logic that suggests that because gay men have no conscious desire to be sexually intimate with women, our uninvited touching and groping (physical assault) is benign.”

— 

Gay Men’s Sexism and Women’s Bodies by Yolo Akili

Being neither gay nor a woman I have no right to any opinion other than "this seems interesting." Thoughts from the demographics in question?

[Hana-Nezumi]

Um. I would never grab a woman or a man. Or criticize someone's body/clothes. And none of my friends who are gay (I have many) do shit like that either.

I don't know how the author came to this generalization... I guess just from things he has personally witnessed in his local bar scene? Regardless, molestation is molestation. "It's okay because I'm gay" is no excuse and anyone saying those things is just a plain dirtbag.

[Nevermind]

Actually two of the three gay guys I remember meeting have been like that. One was standing there drunk, with his drunk female friend, arm draped around her groping her boob. She didn't get upset but it was "all cool" because he was gay. Wasn't a douchebag or anything, quite a cool guy, just...gropin' a girl's boob. Cos gay. The other one I remember was a total bitch. Very critical - and nastily so - of people he knew from university (not anyone who was at the little party, of course). Just listening him be nasty about these people in his "group" kind of pissed me off.

 

Is it representative of the majority? Don't know, probably not. It's certainly a well-known and expected stereotype though, so that has to say something about an undesirably high frequency of these types of attitudes cropping up.

[Selena]

I actually don't notice physical transgressions too terribly much, but I do notice a lot of gays/lesbians saying absolutely awful things about whichever gender they don't care for. Misandry and misogyny can run rampant in the more... passionate factions of the gay spectrum. It's most obvious on the internet. Harder to notice in real life, because it tends to be said in private.

 

When it comes to matters of appearance, though, gay men are typically no worse than women when it comes to catty comments.

 

When it comes to unwarranted physical touching, I have barely noticed that at all -- mostly because the average gay person has no actual desire to grope the opposite gender. Sometimes gay men mess around a bit with their "fag hags" at bars or something, but that's almost always consensual because they're both knowingly being stupid-flirty with each other.

 

The "no sexual attraction" issue can be a problem with both gay and straight friends, as it can be used to dismiss behavior that someone's uncomfortable with. Straight girls are pretty touchy-feely, but sometimes a line gets crossed -- like when one of them does the drunken-straight-girl-make-out-with-my-friend-for-attention thing without any warning, leaving the other to freak out. With gay men, I think retribution is greater with them simply because they are men, and it still plays into that "man taking advantage of woman" theme even if it's mentally similar to the relationship straight girls have.

 

Misandry and misogyny are very real in certain parts of the gay community, though I don't think inappropriate physical interaction is the big culprit. It's mostly name-calling and insults and treating the opposite gender as worthless. And then the various shades-of-gay may not always get along. There's a lot of bisexual and transexual hate within the community too. Feminine lesbians and masculine gay men can also be the subjects of hate because they don't fit into the "culture." I know of other feminine lesbians who have been called "traitors" for "appealing to the desires of the patriarchy" or whatever.

 

It's definitely not perfect. The united LGBT+ front is usually there to present a combined force against homophobia, which is a mutual threat, and to fight for equality, which is a mutual interest. Like all alliances, though, once those mutual interests are removed, things can get less chummy.

 

There are a lot of undercurrents of hate, a lot of them subconscious, toward a lot of people for a lot of different reasons. Even on my end, because I usually don't have many nice things to say about the community, or at least have a lot of dissenting opinions that would get me in trouble.

[Hana-Nezumi]

Lena brings up a lot of good points. There is a lot of internal strife between the different factions and individuals of the gay community (misogyny, as well as other things, such as the trans hate and hatred of masculinity/femininity brewing because of stereotypes that are inflated by insecure egos)

Actually, I have seen similar conflicts within the furry community (between those who take being a furry more seriously and those who don't, fursuiters and non-fursuiters, those who aren't involved in the sexual part of the fandom and those that won't shut up about their fetishes, and so on)

And it's because of one thing: they are both large groups of people who don't necessarily have ANYTHING else in common with each other, that are grouped under one umbrella because of a single common interest.

And it's virtually something they're forced into. Gay people can't just approach anyone they are attracted to, because of homophobia still running rampant, as well the fact that the great majority of people being straight means that they would be wasting a lot of time; so they have to turn to the "gay community" to find someone who might be interested in them. For furries, well, it's bad for them pretty much anywhere on the internet besides their safe havens, let alone in real life.

[J-Roc]

Whats the logic here? Guys, if Jessica Alba grabbed your junk are you really reporting her for sexual assault?

 

I mean, double standards are fun and all....

[Hana-Nezumi]

You're joking, right?

[Nevermind]

Whats the logic here? Guys, if Jessica Alba grabbed your junk are you really reporting her for sexual assault?
 
I mean, double standards are fun and all....

Whats the logic here?

That its okay if theyre good looking?

[Oberon Storm]

Yes.

[Egann]

I confess, I don't have many any openly homosexual friends, nor do I particularly seek them out. Of course, outside of school and work, I don't have much social interaction, anyway, so that doesn't say much. And this is rural North Georgia. 

 

I have, however, seen plenty of heterosexuals being misogynistic or misandronistic. If I had to wager, this is probably a selection bias: we ignore heterosexual misbehavior because it's normal, but homosexuals are automatically put under a microscope because, let's face it: from the point of view of a historically heteronormal culture, they are disturbers of the peace.

 

That, and because they are treated unfairly, some people are more inclined to let them get away with misbehavior.

 

The problem is the nature of the LGBTQ community. It is a collection of exceptions. A confederation of people who have similar needs, but represent drastically different things. Many of these groups have been at each other's throats in the past, they still would be were they not forced into a single label by majority culture, and, after their collective needs are met, they probably will be again. Standards of behavior? Unlikely at best.

[Twinrova]

Yes.

 

Making any kind of sexual advance on a person without their consent isn't right. Period. This idea that "well it's okay if they're hot durhurhurhur" is idiotic.

 

 

Also, to address the original topic, the idea that it's okay for gay men to touch women's bodies without their consent just because they're not attracted to them is also idiotic. You don't fucking touch someone unless they say it's okay. How is that hard to understand?

[JRPomazon]

 

Yes.

 

Making any kind of sexual advance on a person without their consent isn't right. Period. This idea that "well it's okay if they're hot durhurhurhur" is idiotic.

 

 

Also, to address the original topic, the idea that it's okay for gay men to touch women's bodies without their consent just because they're not attracted to them is also idiotic. You don't fucking touch someone unless they say it's okay. How is that hard to understand?

 

 

This sums up my opinion. Being Gay doesn't mean you automatically respect women and it doesn't give you an excuse to grope a person in any way without some sort of consent. But of course we don't live and perfect world and I agree with Sharpy to some extent. There is a double standard to these kinds of things. A normal guy gropes a woman, that's sexual harassment. A gay man gropes you and it's less severe response, perhaps the woman being groped thinks it's a joke or they'll politely tell them to stop. I suppose it's when people are afraid of coming off as homophobic they don't register the same bullshit as offensive harassment and frankly, that's not treating someone as if they are the same or equal. It's the same bullshit, just on the other side of the spectrum.

[Selena]

If Jessica Alba/Natalie Portman/Charlize Theron/HotGirlofChoice walked up to me and grabbed my junk without consent, I'd punch her in the fucking face.

 

Of course, the chances of you being groped by an extremely attractive celebrity of any sexual orientation is incredibly slim, so the point is moot even if it was somehow okay just because they were smoking hot (which it isn't).

[Sir Deimos]

If Jessica Alba/Natalie Portman/Charlize Theron/HotGirlofChoice walked up to me and grabbed my junk without consent, I'd punch her in the fucking face.

What, are gay? ...wait...

Joking of course. People should obviously respect boundaries. That being said, in the above scenario I wouldn't be putting up a fight in the slightest.

[deep]

And this is why gay people can't have nice things. Like marriage.

[Kisseena]

Yeah, this is dumb.

 

With close friends sometimes we'll smack each other's butts as a joke, just because we have big butts. And honestly, I'm used to getting my butt smacked. Something we did in the family all the time. But only with close friends.

 

If a stranger or person I wasn't close with did that, no matter how hawt they were (Zac Efron included ), I would get mad.

Man or woman, gay or straight, I don't care, dats mah booty.

 

I would freak out if it was my crotch area, close friends included.

Boobs too.

 

Just respect people and don't touch no-no areas. That's it.

Edited by Kisseena, 03 June 2013 - 06:11 PM.

[J-Roc]

And this is why gay people can't have nice things. Like marriage.

 

If you say so, Hitler.

[Masamune]

Godwin's Law in 17 posts.

 

Let's give a big round of applause for this thread. 

Edited by Masamune, 04 June 2013 - 09:35 AM.

[deep]

Godwin's Law in 17 posts.

 

Let's give a big round of applause for this thread. 

 

Honestly we should just rename this Sharpy's Constant.

[Fin]

That's why I'm not a vegetarian.

[J-Roc]

I guess that means I just lost this thread perhaps my life as well

[Sir Deimos]

Yup. >=D

[Egann]

What is it with you guys? You can't even take a thread idea and keep it in the same ballpark of crazy.

[Sir Deimos]

I think the escalating ballparks of crazy are an attempt to discourage new posts.

[JRPomazon]

In short, a gay man is just as infallible as a straight man and can very well be prone to the same shameful shortcomings. Let's just call it a day.

[Goose]

In short, a gay man is just as infallible as a straight man and can very well be prone to the same shameful shortcomings. Let's just call it a day.

 

In short, a person is just as infallible as a person and can very well be prone to the same shameful shortcomings. All people are capable of good, and all are capable of evil.