14 replies to this topic

[Selena]

Attempting to start a new Contro segment. We've toyed with doing a current events type thread for a while, but... well, we've all been too lazy or we've been yelling about other things. Rather than have one big thread -- because discussions might pile up and get chaotic -- I'm going to split current events up into weekly threads. Likely posted on Fridays or Saturdays. You're all still free to make your own threads for additional topics, of course!

 

Okay. Big news and controversies. Let's get to it.

 

*********************

 

Weekly Events: May 19th - May 25th

 

1. Woolwich Murder and Fallout

 

An Islamic fundamentalist hacks an off-duty English soldier to death with a butcher knife and then "justifies" his crime on camera (video here for those who haven't seen). He and his friends then attempted to attack police after they arrived on scene, and the police quickly shot them. Tensions have always been high between British nationalists and Muslim immigrants, and this incident has gotten everyone in an uproar. And now a French soldier has been stabbed in Paris, though nobody's sure about a connection yet.

 

Purely reactionary, or a longstanding problem that's just been brought to the surface in a gruesome way? More reason for western troops to pull out the Middle East, or more reason to take a stand against less-than-cooperative immigrants? Will this incident prompt the government to go too far into Big Brother territory?

 

2. Sweden Riots

 

Thematically related. Riots have broken out in Stockholm and surrounding areas this entire week, largely caused by young people. The precise cause of the riots is hard to determine, though they supposedly started when an elderly man was shot by police after he threatened them with a machete. The suburb in which the incident took place is dominated by immigrants, and Sweden has also descended into a tense debate about immigration.

 

Sweden, which is currently governed by the center-right, has also seen a sharp spike in wealth inequality. Immigrants are typically hit harder than other communities, thus causing additional unrest. Certain politicians have simply dismissed the rioting as being caused by "children who were improperly disciplined by their parents."  Yet another incident of unwanted immigrants and the dangers of lowered economic regulations.... or just Vikings going nuts?

 

3. US Infrastructure Debate

 

New media craze caused by the collapse of an interstate bridge in Washington State (I live in the town where it happened ). Collapse prompted journalists to highlight America's aging infrastructure. The vast majority of bridges and highways were built in the 50's, and plenty more bridges are even older than that. Most structures are maintained at only the bare minimum levels because of lack of funding, and there hasn't been any major infrastructure construction since the 50's. Both political parties are quick to blame each other for the issue, either through lack of funding (Republicans) or misuse of funding (Democrats). It has reached a point where people might obviously lose their lives from lack of investment. Fortunately, nobody died in this bridge collapse. But they easily could have. Where does the fault lie, and how do we fix it?

 

 

4. US Military Sex Scandal

 

Basically, the dude in charge of preventing sex abuse in the military was more or less pimping out female soldiers. This story has prompted all sorts of dirty little secrets to come out, including how some officers records female soldiers in the showers without their knowledge. Most sexual assaults go unreported, and only college campuses rival the rate of abuse cases. Some say that this is the reason the military should be all-male, or that women should - at the very least - have a separate branch of service due to the "inevitable side-effects of putting women around scores of hormonal young men." Others vehemently disagree. Where do you side?

 

5. Arpaio's Office Guilty of Profiling Latinos

 

Arizona -- the center of an illegal immigration debate -- is back in the news after Sheriff Joe Arpaio and his associates are found guilty of profiling Latinos. He won't be facing jail time, but this has stirred up animosity on both sides. He claims to only stop people who are suspicious, yet deliberately homing in on Latinos earns some notable eyebrow raises. Common sense practice, as Latinos are most likely to be illegal immigrants? Or inherently wrong?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...Discuss and add your own!

 

[Mark]

feels like a fine line - making a good discussion.

you need something for people to care enough to argue back, but not enough for them to fight back.

 

I feel like someone needs to pick a fight though.

Edited by Mark, 26 May 2013 - 09:52 PM.

[Selena]

This thread was intended for global current events and their controversies.... not to pick random fights for the sake of picking random fights.

[Mark]

This thread was intended for global current events and their controversies.... not to pick random fights for the sake of picking random fights.

yeah, sorry, didnt read totally.... my bad.

[Egann]

I don't really know how to make an organized response, but I think Lena listed all the major incidents from last week. I'll post more tomorrow: it's late here.

 

Woolwich.

 

Surprise, surprise: radical Muslims don't make good neighbors.

 

The problem is that modern Political Correctness has this xenophillic way of thinking all religions are peaceful, and in Islam's case that argument is questionable at best. Remember how Jews and Christians are all supposed to "honorable believers of the book" and their faiths are honored, but seen as incorrect? Well, here's a line straight from the Quoran:

 

And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

(9: 30)

May Allah destroy them.

 

Muslims are explicitly allowed to lie to non-Muslims under some circumstances, and advancing the faith is one of those. That, and later passages in the Quoran supersede preceding passages in most interpretations because they are later chronologically. It's called Abrogation. So while, yes, the Quoran does have a passage honoring Jewish and Christian belief, most Muslims regard it as irrelevant. The rule of thumb is that peaceful passages cited from the early portions of the Quoran have been abrogated, and are interested reference material, but no more...but remember: the Muslim is not required to tell you a passage has been abrogated. It's perfectly acceptable to cite something with the intent of misleading you.

 

It took me some real digging from confessions of former Muslims to find this stuff out.

 

I've met a few Muslims, and they seemed like nice people...but I can't trust that impression. I know that some are willing to lie to me--I have no clue how many--and I can't trust the ones who will to identify themselves. Even if it makes me into a poor neighbor, the only rational thing I can do is assume they are all willing to lie.

 

Eventually this is going to come to a head. It might be ten thousand years from now, but Islam will be erased, win, or change from within. I, for one, cannot coexist with someone or something willing to lie to achieve a goal.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Egann, I agree...

Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.

Exodus 23:24.

Look, the Woolwich incident is quite clearly political. The nutjobs quite clearly stated their motives being the killing of Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq by British soldiers. It's quite clear that what they were practising wasn't so much Quranic as more "an eye for an eye". Now if the Quran actually has that verse in there, fair enough. But to say that it was motivated by the teachings of the Quran and not say anything else is farcical.

These people are no different from the old Communist sympathisers and defectors. They're sold propaganda that neatly glosses over Communist-led persecutions. So it is with these impressionable youths; they were sold Muslim propaganda that glosses over the atrocities that Muslims perpetrate on other people.

One more thing. I would not call them terrorists. Sure, what they did fits the definition of terrorism but that's only because the term is deliberately loose so as to enable the politicians to use it against anyone they don't like. Is this terrorism? No. These are two madmen who should be sectioned under the Mental Health Act.

[Egann]

My point wasn't that they were particularly motivated by Islam, but that some Islam's teachings mean I cannot distinguish the radical Muslims from the moderates. Distrusting Muslims as a whole is a rational response to some of their teachings, not an emotional reaction to 9-11, the Boston bombing, or this murder. Is that the conclusion I wanted to draw? No. This is like introducing someone to Bipolar Bob: any kind of a warning is unfair for Bob, but not giving one is unfair to the other person.

 

Is this incident motivated by Islam? I confess, I don't know, but I don't think it particularly matters. People will distrust Muslims more as a result, and even if this is the wrong reason to do that, I do think that's the right thing to do. Well, the rational thing, anyway.

 

Speaking of rational things which aren't exactly morally right...

 

Profiling

 

A disproportionate number of illegal immigrants do become criminals, and most illegals are indeed Hispanic. Putting the two together and saying "let's focus on the Hispanics" is unscrupulous, unfair...and often effective.

 

This is a wonderful example of two wrongs making another wrong. Mexico has a huge wealth discrepancy: people with money have a lot and even more ways to make it. Those without have none of either, so they hop the fence and spend ten years picking mushrooms or doing yard work in the United States. So what is a young kid who came over as a toddler supposed to do with his life? They are illegal, so they have few legitimate options to advance themselves. Crime is literally the logical choice.

 

Then you have politics. It's not really in anyone's interest to resolve the issue: Republicans know that 60%+ of Hispanic voters auto-vote all Democrat, so supporting immigration reform is political suicide. Democrat politicians don't really care, either: Blacks? Women? Native Americans? Rich, Guilty-feeling Whites? Gays? Hispanics? The Democrat party collects special interest groups like merit badges, then they do as little as possible. Resolving their immediate interests would make them more likely to defect and vote Republican over something like taxes or the budget.

 

So are we surprised the logical reaction is to do something unsightly?

 

Personally, I don't like profiling, but I'll put up with it if it's soft-touch. There's a big difference between asking to see a driver's license and doing nothing if someone can't, and asking to see a green card and carting your ass off to jail if you don't. If you're just trying to do your job efficiently, I'll look the other way. If you're being a sadistic, oppressive Big Brother, however, you've made it so I can't ignore you.

 

In this case? The article doesn't give me enough information to cast firm judgement either way.

[Kwicky Koala]

Letting ourselves be influenced by paranoia is the worst thing to do in these situations. Egann's post strikes me as being very paranoid. Treating every Muslim as a potential liar? Because Western governments have such great records on truth-telling? Come on, if Muslims were out to get the rest of the world we'd have problems on a much grander scale than we have today. Distrusting everyone may be rational, but its not helpful.

 

Maybe Islam is the most fire and brimstone religion out there. I don't know, I'm not well versed enough in the scripture, and until you've read the Koran from cover to cover I wouldn't make these sort of judgements. But the fundamental fact is that no matter the religion, and no matter how devout the practitioner, they are going to be influenced by a relatively limited set of human emotions, much more than their dogma. And if the majority of Muslims are peaceful, the current nature of Islam, barring the small, but very vocal, minority, must be said to be peaceful too.

 

The Woolwich murder was not an act exemplifying typical Muslim opinion. It didn't even follow the established pattern of Jihadist violence. A former friend of the murderer said he was never the same after being tortured and sexually abused in a Kenyan jail shortly before this took place. It was a rogue attack by an unstable person with a lot of anger inside him. You could argue that his radical Islamic beliefs influenced his choice of victim, but who can say where the radical teachings ended and his agitated state of mind began... perhaps he went for a British soldier in the same way certain serial killers choose women of a certain hair colour.

[Jasi]

I'll talk about bridge stuff—

 

It seems clear that the bridge collapsed because a semi ran into a structurally significant part of the bridge, and that the bridge was not deteriorating or anything. So the fault lies with the motorist.

 

At the same time, there are obvious questions about why a truck that is big enough to damage the structure of the bridge was allowed to go on the bridge in the first place. This does seem to be a case of less-than-ideal engineering. 

 

I do think it would be wise to invest more in our infrastructure, from federal/state governments; however, the political climate is not right at the moment, as around 50% of our country is vehemently opposed to any spending not offset by cuts elsewhere. I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon. But it's definitely needed. I recently read an article about how several NYC above-ground subway stations do not pass muster for safety, and are very dangerous, and yet still in full use. Yikes.

[Selena]

The bridge thing was a total shock to everyone in the community, because it's our main north-south route, and one of the few ways to get across the local river. Most everyone drove over that bridge as part of their daily commute. So when someone ran down and told me to switch on the new because part of it had collapse, I was just.... whaaat?

 

It was never in genuinely bad condition. Certainly not impressive, but nothing scary. There are much older and scarier bridges around here (and around the country). Some were built way back in the 20's and weren't ever designed with freeways in mind. The bridge was "functionally obsolete," but that means it's the VHS of bridges. It still technically works, it's just really outdated. The design didn't really take super-tall trucks into the equation because they didn't exist then, so once it lost that vital beam, the whole section collapsed.

 

Of course, the fact that an outdated bridge is so vulnerable in the modern age pretty much demands that we update our infrastructure to avoid surprise dunks in the water before someone dies.

 

But, yeah, I really doubt anyone in power will get their shit together to do it. Failing to invest in essential infrastructure management sign of a deteriorating country, and it's significantly more important than most of the big-money sinkholes in the national budget.

 

 

 

(The truck driver that hit the bridge was Canadian, surprising literally no one here. =_=)

[Jasi]

What is this Canadian stereotype? Are Canadians supposed to be bad drivers?

[Selena]

Oh my god.

 

Maybe not where you are, but I live right by the border. So they always drive down here to shop (read: pillage) and then return to their own country. While they are here, they are a menace to every living creature in the area. So, learning that the truck driver was Canadian surprised nobody.

 

Trust no one with a maple leaf.

 

Then there's the rare but extremely deadly hybrid monster: The Canasian.

 

 

(not really an exaggeration)

[Sir Deimos]

Controversy post May 30th. Lena's racial stereotyping.

[JRPomazon]

I can't say I'm prepared to make a write out for everything mentioned in this post, but for now I'll make note of a couple of the subjects.

 

On the matter of the US's aging Highways, bridges and what have you.

 

In the area of MA that I live in, there are a lot of old overpasses on Route 128 heading towards Boston. We're talking 60 year old structures that are slowly breaking away one piece at a time under the pressure of cars constantly passing over and under them. Given how the weather is a little harsh in this part of the country, the roads get hit with a lot of rain, snow and hail throughout the colder parts of the year and because of this a lot of things tend to get banged up really fast. I want to say that they are in VHS state (as Lena earlier coined) because they're at the point where they need to be fixed up, reinforced or just plain gutted and replaced. But of course after all the money the state has just dumped into the stretch of 128 I just mentioned, these overpasses weren't even touched in the slightest which I can only imagine means that there won't be any action taken until it can't be ignored any further. But given how frequently the roads get banged up from winter weather and the like, I can't 100% blame the state for not addressing it right away although I rather it not be ignored outright. And I imagine that there are other roads in other parts of the country that have been there for multiple decades that their states just don't have the money to spend on because of more immediate repairs that need to go on for the function and safety of these highways.

 

On the topic of Arizona

 

I'm not surprised at this. Arizona has stated before their intentions on illegal immigration in their state and have no trouble jumping to the far right about their measures in dealing with it. I hold judgements on their actions because I don't live in that part of the country and I don't know what it's like for some who lives there. I've been of the impression that the people who live in a specific place happen to have a better idea of what it's like to live there over some who doesn't. I've read a story a couple years back about a rancher who was killed by an illegal alien in Arizona that sparked this overall mindset on immigration. Regardless on how some liberal douchebags from my state took it as Arizona making the rest of the country look bad and decided to boycott the state (Don't ask) or whether the actions of Arizona were even constitutional, it was what they were going to do despite whatever anyone else had to say. So I guess to summarize my thoughts, it's wrong to blindly profile anyone and it shouldn't be something we do in standard practice. But given where they are on the map, I don't think the profiling is completely unwarranted.

[Egann]

Lena, you also live in the same state as Tacoma-Narrows. When your bridges collapse, the rest of us wind up with physics classes about aeroelastic flutter.    

 

Indulge a little rambling.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't that $700 billion bail-out thing we passed a few years back supposed to FIX things like this? I was distinctly under the impression the DOT would be a primary beneficiary specifically to upgrade infrastructure. "Shovel-ready jobs" I seem to remember. Apparently this neither stimulated the economy, nor repaired our roadways. Lesson learned? Spending an exorbitant amount of money will do jack squat if you haven't got a goddam clue what you're doing in the first place.

 

Around here the roadway crews are just plain incompetent. There was a section of road on my commute which had to be resurfaced twice because the dummies didn't do it right the first time and it degenerated into an undrivable mess in less than two weeks. That, and every time they resurface roads they spend three hours painting the passing lines, but never paint a white line on the outside. Do you ever drive at night? That white line costs all of $5 and saves people's lives, especially on winding country roads. DRAW THE BLOODY LINES.

 

The policy makers have even less of an idea what they're doing, too. Atlanta has one of the worst traffic problems in the nation. It used to have an HOV lane to encourage carpooling, but recently the idjit bureaucrats decided they weren't making enough money, so they made it the "Peach Pass" lane.

 

No one uses the Peach Pass lane because it's expensive and complicated, even if they technically qualify for the three-person exemption because billing and ticketing is automatic. Our lovely local government bureaucrats have successfully crammed one of the nation's busiest 8-lane highways...into a 6-lane highway and aren't even getting that much revenue out of it.

 

We don't need new infrastructure. We need new infrastructure management. Someone who actually knows what they're doing.