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#1 Egann

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 05:02 PM

This little conspiracy is a little more dangerous than your average political bomb.

The IRS has been selectively auditing groups with key words like "tea party" or "patriot." It even goes so far as leaking confidential information to the media, again selectively. The latest I heard, the IRS spokesman, Jay Carney, said this was something caused by lower level staff.

For those of you who don't speak government bureaucrat, allow me to translate: "we are actively looking for a middle manager scape goat."

I know most people here are toward the tea party at best, but hear me out on this one: it doesn't really matter who was targeted. It basically translates to "if I, the IRS, don't like you, you get audited," which of course translates to "if I, the IRS agent, don't like you." Danger to democracy? Methinks so. This is basically a fine, not for doing something illegal, but for doing something somebody doesn't like. It's a retribution equivalent to censorship.

Discuss.

Edited by Egann, 14 May 2013 - 08:10 PM.


#2 SteveT

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 07:28 PM

I'm torn on this issue.

On one hand, selectively targeting based on political affiliation is a reprehensible abuse of power.

On the other hand, they're targeting groups who make a special point of shouting to the world that they oppose the very concept of taxes. If you're going to give anyone special attention, it should be the people who you have reasonable suspicious of.

My feels are complicated.

#3 Doctor Pogo

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 10:07 PM

Steve said pretty much my thoughts on the subject. I mean, naming your group Tea Party Patriots is like having a group named "Tax Evasion Support Network." The IRS is going to notice you.

But, jokes aside, painting a target on somebody's back is not an ethical political move, no matter who it is or how awful they are. And like Egann said, in this case it amounts to getting hassled and potentially fined just for your political associations, which is all kinds of not good.

#4 JRPomazon

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 11:31 PM

To be blunt and brief, this is just another incident reminding us that the so called "transparent administration" is anything but.

#5 wisp

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 03:07 AM

Agree with Steve and mr. wisp... I'm uncomfortable with the idea of people being targeted simply for speaking up about what they think needs to change in the US... but at the same time, if you're going to stand up and loudly tell everyone that you think taxes are bullshit, you are kind of throwing up a giant red flag and should probably make sure you don't leave them anything to find.

Mixed feels, yep.

#6 Selena

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 10:34 AM

Short and sweet: It's wrong.


That said, however, it's the political/financial equivalent of law enforcement detaining or unnecessarily searching someone who is of Arabic descent, or the police in Arizona who can ask "papers, please" to Latinos. The argument for those acts of discrimination were justified by saying: "Well, of course that's how it has to be done - those are the people who will inevitably commit the crime! It's a waste of resources to spend time questioning anyone else!"

Such is the case here. You can argue that it's a government crackdown on an oppositional movement, but you can also argue that the racial equivalents were a version of the same basic mentality. No matter the situation, all of these things are unfair and wrong. It's just a little amusing at how much airtime this particular issue is getting, and how offended people are, now that uppity white people have finally been caught up in the same unfair treatment.



Democracy already died in the United States for a lot of reasons - all of them linked to the ultimate corruption in both houses and the presidency (no matter which party is in charge). Unfortunately, that also means the problem will never correct itself.

#7 Egann

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 12:06 PM

Allow me to approach this from a different tack.

Democracy has an unspoken requirement: policies must be as simple as possible, and have rules in place to keep them as simple as possible. Consider your average American voter. Free time? Minimal after a 40 hour work week. IQ? About 90. Education? High School Diploma. News? Maybe 20 minutes of Channel 2 Action News at Eleven, and that's assuming the anchor's hot.

Now I put it to you: how is someone like this supposed to have an educated opinion of a 906 page healthcare law? They can't. Our news reporters won't have read it. Their sources won't have read it. Our representatives won't have read it. Maybe in a good situation a few interns and concerned voters will sit down to read the law, but even that's just to cherry pick talking points.

Now how about the tax code? It's a smudge more than 13,000 pages. Opportunity to hide abuse behind complexity? High. Probability you could apply it fairly if you tried? Minimal. Chances your average American voter could have a solid grasp of the tax code for voting purposes? None whatsoever.

#8 Selena

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 02:06 PM

Now I put it to you: how is someone like this supposed to have an educated opinion of a 906 page healthcare law? They can't.


That's the point (which I assume is also your point?).

Bills are deliberately written in such a way that both the electorate and the representatives don't have time to properly analyze them. They're also written in such a way that huge controversial issues are piggybacked on top of measures that must pass. Like the military bill which ultimately undid the 6th amendment. It was written into a much larger military bill that, if it had not passed, would have cut funding for numerous essential programs.

People are good at building systems - including political systems. But you can never underestimate the ability of other people to find ways to exploit those systems for their own benefit. Complex safeguards aren't typically invented to prevent future exploitation - they're invented to close loopholes that have already been attacked and brought to light. The American people could stand to take more initiative and stay informed, but no matter how saavy the electorate becomes, the people at the top will always have more knowledge at their disposal. That's their job.

Unfortunately, the people who most exploit our political system are the politicians and their financial backers. They're not going to fix a system that's broken in their favor. It's only been getting worse over time, no matter how many people protest. The largest of our issues could be easily fixed with a few simple measures:

1) Stop or strictly limit the private funding of our representatives. This will prevent politicians from having ulterior motives and will free them from worrying about pleasing big lobby groups in the next election cycle by supporting measures they probably don't even believe in to begin with.

2) Regulate new bills so that they are uncomplicated proposals -- not complex 'packages' that pass a million new measures at once. This will prevent lawmakers from hiding controversial issues in a deliberately confusing tome of a document.

But that's not going to happen unless there's a monumental grassroots movement to force those changes out. Which is doubtful for numerous reasons. Partisan voters are naturally drawn to their own party above all else, including above the health of the greater political system, and are easily manipulated by party leaders who continually make them afraid of something. Usually the loss of whatever pet civil rights issues dominate the party in question. Centrist voters, the ones who now more or less decide which way the votes go, are typically so dejected by the whole affair that they assume any fight against the system is in vain.

If I'm being perfectly honest, I don't think the system is even fixable anymore, and I expect another civil war within 50-100 years.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter which party you elect into office - the system remains just as corrupt, and things like this happen on either watch. People just coincidentally let things slide if it was "their" party in charge at the time. Liberals are much too kind to Obama's administration, and conservatives were way too lenient about Bush. And it wouldn't matter if people had elected McCain instead. Or even an obscure third party candidate. Once you get into that office, you're limited by external factors and have to act in a certain fashion. I don't think there's been one president, perhaps ever, that actually came through on all their grandiose campaign promises. You have to play the game.

Obama likely knew about the IRS fiasco, and they're looking for a mook to take the fall. Same with the whole Benghazi incident. But that's not exclusive to him.

A "Benghazi" happens on every watch.
There are cover ups on every watch.
There are damaging bills passed on every watch.
Civil rights can be easily eroded on either watch.
Groups are targets on every watch - the targets in question just change depending on who is in charge.



I don't say all that meaning to sound like an anti-government conspiracy theorist. I actually like systems and system-building. I mostly say that because that's how empires and nations have been run since the dawn of time. At this point, I'm only surprised that people find these sort of things surprising anymore.

There's always going to be a system in place. Despite what anarchists might want to believe, humans are wired by their very nature to operate within some kind of social system. Be it tribal confederation or global empire. The trick is to maintain and update the system as you go along. Fail to do that, as is likely the case with all battered empires of the past and future, and you eventually reach a point where things can't be fixed anymore.





/doom

#9 Steel Samurai

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:50 PM

I don't say all that meaning to sound like an anti-government conspiracy theorist. I actually like systems and system-building. I mostly say that because that's how empires and nations have been run since the dawn of time. At this point, I'm only surprised that people find these sort of things surprising anymore.



Basically this.

Also, anyone who even remotely thinks that the US Governmental system still works needs to watch the new House of Cards on Netflix.

#10 Mark

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:19 PM

Allow me to approach this from a different tack.

Democracy has an unspoken requirement: policies must be as simple as possible, and have rules in place to keep them as simple as possible. Consider your average American voter. Free time? Minimal after a 40 hour work week. IQ? About 90. Education? High School Diploma. News? Maybe 20 minutes of Channel 2 Action News at Eleven, and that's assuming the anchor's hot.

Now I put it to you: how is someone like this supposed to have an educated opinion of a 906 page healthcare law? They can't. ...


but how is someone like this supposed to have an educated oppinion on the running of a country anyway?

#11 Egann

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 11:12 AM

Unfortunately, the people who most exploit our political system are the politicians and their financial backers. They're not going to fix a system that's broken in their favor. It's only been getting worse over time, no matter how many people protest. The largest of our issues could be easily fixed with a few simple measures:

1) Stop or strictly limit the private funding of our representatives. This will prevent politicians from having ulterior motives and will free them from worrying about pleasing big lobby groups in the next election cycle by supporting measures they probably don't even believe in to begin with.

2) Regulate new bills so that they are uncomplicated proposals -- not complex 'packages' that pass a million new measures at once. This will prevent lawmakers from hiding controversial issues in a deliberately confusing tome of a document.

That won't do. Rich donors can create proxy donors, and limiting "complex packages" won't do anything because it's an arbitrary measure.

A while ago I actually tried to write my own constitution. A fun exercise in seeing what I wanted in government. The closest I could come to stopping packages was to require all bills to have a paragraph-level outline and a one clause purpose statement at the beginning. Every subsequent clause had to complete that purpose statement or support a clause completing that purpose statement as per the outline. I also limited bill length to no longer than the constitution itself, which is about twenty pages.

You can still package bills, but if you're going to explain how funding a mangrove arboretum in Kentucky fits into a national defense bill, you'll need almost a full paragraph of BS, so it has to be organizationally marked at the beginning.

I'm pretty sure the reaction to this will be "pass thousands of bills." I have not figured out how to stop that. Limiting the number of bills Congress can consider in a session seems draconian. Perhaps requiring at least twenty minutes of floor discussion of the bill before voting?

If I'm being perfectly honest, I don't think the system is even fixable anymore, and I expect another civil war within 50-100 years.


Now you're starting to sound like a bitter clinger.

Democracy is certainly high maintenance. I've not lost hope for a peaceful answer, though: we're close to enough disaffection that we can call a constitutional convention and re-write the constitution. And, honestly, I'm kind of trying to consciously push things in that direction. To do that, however, requires a detailed understanding of our current constitution and, more to the point, where it's failing and why.

There's never a good time for a civil war, but let's just say that I'm looking at the politics of the rest of the world, and the United States having one right now or in the foreseeable future would...not be good.

but how is someone like this supposed to have an educated oppinion on the running of a country anyway?


The irony of democracy.

Edited by Egann, 16 May 2013 - 11:13 AM.


#12 Steel Samurai

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 06:52 PM

There are two simple solutions to the lobbyist/donor/corruption problem currently plaguing the country. Unfortunately, Americans would hate both of them.

1) Ban television advertisements for any and all political candidates. The vast majority of campaign expenses goes towards television. If that is not an option, then the ground will immediately be much more equal and political candidates can operate at much lower budgets.

2) Introduce government and state funding for election campaigns. Each candidate reaching a certain level of support is allocated a set amount of money and resources with which to carry out their campaigns (perhaps six weeks prior to the actual election) and they are not allowed to spend any more than that using either their own wealth or any money donated to them. Force TV stations to carry political advertisements equally, in blocks, and for a set rate.

There. That's 80% of the problem fixed, right there.

#13 Toan

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 01:06 AM

So your band has this van, right?

It's older, say a mid-1990's model. It's a bit run down, in need of a paint job, some light engine work, but the exhaust is pretty overwhelming when you shift gears. Not to mention the crummy upholstery. It's got maybe another few years left in it before it finally kicks it, and you're not quite sure what you'll do then because the band isn't exactly getting many paying gigs.

The van isn't everyone's favorite, but it does the job fair enough and gets you and the other band members around with y'all's gear. Everyone is expected to chip in for gas and parts when needed, though, and they do... but Gus, man. Gus drums a motherfucking fit every time he's approached about the van. He thinks the van is unnecessary, that the band doesn't need it, that we're better off without the van... but doesn't offer up any kind of feasible solution when asked how on earth the band is expected to get to practice and gigs! It's like pulling teeth just to get Gus to pay his fair share, and Gus is constantly threatening to not pay a dime. This goes on for months...

...Until, recently, Gus approaches the band and asks to not pay into the van anymore, but still wants to equally use it along with everyone else.



Are you going to scrutinize Gus or just let it slide on good faith?


..... Yeah. Unpopular opinion time: these folks shouldn't be fired. Hell, I say audit everyone who applies for tax exemption. Wasn't the revolution started as a result of taxation without representation? What about the opposite - if you're being fairly represented and utilizing the tax-paid luxuries of the community, why shouldn't you be paying taxes? What makes these groups feel they are above being taxed, yet still receive benefits bought with tax money and representation?

#14 Elvenlord

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 01:38 AM

Here's the kicker:

http://www.businessw...party-row-taxes

The IRS targeted liberal groups too. The Tea Party just loves to pretend they're the godly beacon of light against the evil tyrannical government. No matter how it matches with reality.

#15 Oberon Storm

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:30 AM

I agree with Toan on this one. These organizations were applying for federal tax exempt status under 501( c)(4). 501( c)(4) states that organizations must be "operated exclusively for the promotion of social welfare".

The real scandal is why were organizations such as this not looked at closer before? Why were there applications approved anyway? Why am I watching a hearing of the House Ways and Means commitee and no one has mentioned this? J. Russell George, the inspector general tax administration has even said in this hearing that organizations are allowed to be political in nature when the law itself says something completely different. No one is calling him out on it.

Edited by Chief Fire Storm, 17 May 2013 - 08:31 AM.


#16 Egann

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:58 AM

..... Yeah. Unpopular opinion time: these folks shouldn't be fired.



Please note the IRS audits in question asked questions about their membership and sponsors. Then, as I noted in my first post, leaked the information to the media.

There is no doubt this is illegal.

Or maybe the IRS thought that asking questions to applicants, including the names of the volunteers, donors, contributors and grantors, the size of the contributions and grants and when they were given, and the contents of all speeches its members had made, would help the applicants appreciate the difficulty of creating a successful nonprofit organization. However, those questions would not have been asked if employees knew that the NAACP case held that membership information for nonprofits is constitutionally protected from mandatory disclosure and that providing such information would have a chilling effect on support.


Edited by Egann, 17 May 2013 - 08:58 AM.


#17 Toan

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 10:10 AM

So asking about members and donors is unconstitutional - I was not aware of NAACP vs Alabama. For that reason alone, there should be IRS firings - I stand corrected.

However, I do still believe that extra scrutiny should come in the form of audits when a group applies for tax exemption under the operation as a 501c4, when documentation and intent clearly shows them operating otherwise.

And as far as leaking goes, reading that article, it seems to me the inclusion of those groups sent to Propublica was an honest mistake, which the IRS office attempted to rectify by asking Propublica to not publish as such disclosure is illegal. But, Propublica went ahead and did it anyway, spitting in the face of federal law because, hey, $$$$. Seems to me that this organization should be facing legal action as well.

#18 Jasi

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 12:35 PM

..... Yeah. Unpopular opinion time: these folks shouldn't be fired.



Please note the IRS audits in question asked questions about their membership and sponsors. Then, as I noted in my first post, leaked the information to the media.

There is no doubt this is illegal.

Or maybe the IRS thought that asking questions to applicants, including the names of the volunteers, donors, contributors and grantors, the size of the contributions and grants and when they were given, and the contents of all speeches its members had made, would help the applicants appreciate the difficulty of creating a successful nonprofit organization. However, those questions would not have been asked if employees knew that the NAACP case held that membership information for nonprofits is constitutionally protected from mandatory disclosure and that providing such information would have a chilling effect on support.




Just speculating—it says mandatory disclosure. Seems like they can still ask, and if they comply, so be it. Maybe like how it's not mandatory for you to let a police officer into your home if they come knocking, but the officer can still ask. They just can't force you.

Also, I'd caution against using Daily Mail as a resource...they're notorious for inaccuracy.

#19 Egann

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 04:56 PM

That was actually the source I was least concerned about. There are dozens and I just grabbed one at random. I already knew it was illegal, but I had to spend a minute or three finding a link which explained why it was illegal.

 

 

 

And as far as leaking goes, reading that article, it seems to me the inclusion of those groups sent to Propublica was an honest mistake, which the IRS office attempted to rectify by asking Propublica to not publish as such disclosure is illegal. But, Propublica went ahead and did it anyway, spitting in the face of federal law because, hey, $$$$. Seems to me that this organization should be facing legal action as well.

 

*shrug* One of the reasons I posted it was it was the very same organization which published them. I knew it had some Legalese, but now that you prompt me to give it a close reading, I see some outright contradictions.

 

Nine of those applications had not yet been approved—meaning they were not supposed to be made public.

So the answers for the questions you are allowed to ask will be made public upon approval. OK, I dig.

 

Social welfare nonprofits are not required to apply to the IRS to operate. Many politically active new conservative groups apply anyway. Getting IRS approval can help with donations and help insulate groups from further scrutiny. Many politically active new liberal nonprofits have not applied.  

Wait, what? IRS approval insulates groups from further scrutiny? How is that possible when the IRS is going to make the information public after approval? Considering all the channels of scrutiny there were around before approval will remain open, doesn't the published information increase scrutiny?

 

Taking the article at face value, the people who hate the Tea Party are waiting for the IRS's approval before they send Tea Party volunteers flowers.

 

And then what is this "many politically active new X" groups? Does this mean ten percent? Ninety percent? That you don't know percent? It's obviously phrased to imply more conservative groups apply than liberal groups, so presumably the author has the numbers...but isn't telling us. It also tries to imply the application is to dodge scrutiny, but the article already undermined that implication so what does this even mean?

 

(*breathes into a paper bag*)

 

Honestly, I don't agree with this "tax exempt" and "taxed" status thing. Political organizations and religious institutions should be tax free because they don't produce a good or a service, so they don't produce a taxable commodity. Our government does not agree.

 

Failing that, these organizations should file 10-K's with the SEC as if they were a publicly traded company: they're basically owned by the voting electorate. 10-K's require companies to explain who they are, what they've done, what they intend to do, why, management's analysis of the firm, and provide detailed financial statements in accordance with Generally Accepted Accounting Principles. Our government does not agree with that, either.

 

What'cha gonna do?


Edited by Egann, 20 May 2013 - 06:24 AM.


#20 arunma

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 01:41 AM

Heh, this scandal has gotten worse in the past few days.  Even liberal groups are criticizing the government over it.

 

I'm not so convinced, though, that there's been any seriously unethical behavior being perpetrated here.  One should try to be apolitical when it comes to taxes, but I have to say that the Republican Party is no longer a legitimate political party at all, and should be treated no differently than the Communist Party (just my opinion here).  With regard to the Tea Party, we're talking about people who want to pay no taxes and possess firearms with the specific intent of overthrowing the government.  But for the fact that the Tea Party consists largely of suburban housewives who don't have the testicular fortitude to actually put a single one of their beliefs into practice, one might liken this organization to a group of anarchists rather than a political organization.  Seems to me the least the government should do is think twice when they apply for any sort of tax exemptions.

 

Someone tell me where I'm going wrong here, but it seems to me that excessive IRS scrutiny is only scandalous under the assumption that the Tea Party is a viable political organization.



#21 Jasi

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 09:39 PM

It should be pointed out, too, that these groups are supposed to not have politics be their primary aim...so it kind of makes sense that Tea Party or Patriot groups would receive extra scrutiny. I'm with arunma; I'm not sure how illegal/unethical this really is.



#22 J-Roc

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 10:10 AM

If America really cared about taxing fairly they'd take the Catholic Church to task, one of the largest corporations in history.



#23 Sir Deimos

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 01:30 PM

Why is it religious organisations are tax exempt? Does it have to do with the whole church and state thing?

#24 Jasi

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 01:36 PM

Religious organizations are, generally speaking, nonprofits; like all nonprofits, they get tax exemption.



#25 Sir Deimos

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 02:14 PM

Very generally speaking, I suppose.

#26 Egann

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 03:06 PM

Ehem. 

 

Honestly, I don't agree with this "tax exempt" and "taxed" status thing. Political organizations and religious institutions should be tax free because they don't produce a good or a service, so they don't produce a taxable commodity. Our government does not agree.

 

Oh, also Lois Lerner invoked the fifth in the official inquiry.



#27 Jasi

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 03:25 PM

I mean, they do produce services (advertising for candidates they endorse and events they promote, for just one example). And just because you disagree with something doesn't mean that's not what the government does...so why are you reminding us what you think about it? It's not of consequence. I was just answering why churches are tax exempt. But charitable organizations are not taxed because the government sees them as being beneficial to the community in some way and because they are not turning a profit for the things they advertise/produce/sell.


Edited by Jasi, 23 May 2013 - 03:30 PM.


#28 Toan

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 07:23 PM

But charitable organizations are not taxed because the government sees them as being beneficial to the community in some way and because they are not turning a profit for the things they advertise/produce/sell.

 

Yep. He was only repeating himself to point out that he addressed this in earlier posts, before Synile asked it. That's all I was taking away from Egann's repetition (correct me if I am wrong, Egann!)



#29 Sir Deimos

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 08:07 PM

My fault for not reading huge wall of text.

#30 Jasi

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 08:24 PM

Well I guess what I am saying is that if only organizations that don't produce any services can be tax exempt, then virtually no Tea Party or religious groups could be tax exempt. The vast majority of them provide goods/services of some kind, even if that is not their primary aim. I don't know if that's what you want, Egann, but you are entitled to your own opinion of course.


Edited by Jasi, 23 May 2013 - 08:25 PM.





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