6 replies to this topic

[Khallos]

Sticks and stones may break my bones but words may never hurt me. Well how true is it? Obviously it's hard to ask the world, but where does everyone stand on various words? I'm just curious after varying responses in the Baseball thread.

1. How do you categorise different insults and swear words? Is bastard less vulgar than Jack Thompson?

2. Blasphemy, is it a real issue or something belonging to the name of the Lord being taken in vain?

3. What age is acceptable to swear around minors? Do you have different categories of swear words for different ages of child or adolescent?

4. How much do you swear and what sort of language do you use?

5. When a word is directed at a certain group is it particuarly tasteless to use? For example (using the other thread), we'd all agree that faggot is hardly an acceptable word to hurl at someone, but bastard is? Is it acceptable to refer to someone in a negative manner by inferring that they are born out of wedlock, but not as a homosexual (and is that due to illegitimacy being a past issue and homosexuality still being negatively perceived in society)?

6. Defending other people being insulted. This neatly applies to all of the above. As stupid as it sounds, how likely are you to feel ire at someone else being insulted. Are you simply being outraged when they themselves care or care not?

I'm sure more could be asked, so suggest a head. I'll respond when I'm not so shattered.

[Egann]

Pardon me for ripping something off the other thread to put it where it topically belongs. This wall of text has my answers to those questions in it...somewhere.

The whole point of fiction is to play with ideas. They are not always going to be ideas we all agree with. They will sometimes go against our personal beliefs. That should be absolutely expected when you pick up a book or watch a movie. The original Dune series contained homophobia. As another example, I am in deep disagreement with many of the beliefs Orson Scott Card inserts into some of his books. Depending on the creator's views, you can expect to be offended at one point or another. But these things aren't meant to be personal attacks. They're part of a fictional world. You can choose to agree or disagree. These are expected risks we take when reading a work of fiction.

"You're a faggot" is a personal attack - even if it's not directed at a specific individual. It is not part of some sweeping world building experience. It is not a deep analysis of society, even if it's one someone disagrees with. It is not a playing with an idea and the consequences of that idea. It's not fiction. It's just being a douche. "You're a nigger" is also a personal attack. "Fuck Christians" is a personal attack. "Muslims should burn" is too. Anything like that. It's also during a live game in which this sort of thing is neither expected nor tolerated.

I am not truly offended if someone writes a sensible, detailed essay that takes a negative stance against homosexuality, liberals, or whatever else I'm affiliated with. I don't stop reading Dune just because Frank Herbert hated gays, and I don't stop reading Orson Scott Card just because he's decided to get up on the Mormon pedestal for a few pages.

I am definitely offended if someone yells out "FUCKIN' DYKE" or displays something like that. It's not an argument. It's not a thesis. It's not a story I happen to disagree with. It's an insult.

Except that's exactly why the slur isn't offensive. There's no thought behind it; it's just the mindless babbling of the village idiots, and I would feel absolutely no remorse in ignoring it. The negative attention you give it could make matters worse. It's not worth wasting your time thinking about it, anyway; thoughtlessness is so cheap it will never be gone.

Contrast this with the well thought out thesis. There isn't a good reason to ignore it, and this universe is a big enough place that "absolutely true" and "horribly misleading" are good bedfellows, not polar opposites. It's "enlightened" to say that ideas, particularly well thought out ideas, can't be offensive, but this ignores are human tendencies to be attached to our ways of thinking.

Perhaps there's a good way to give constructive philosophical criticism, but here in Contro, when other people poke holes in what I believe, I find myself typing "there must be some reason why I'm right!" into Google. The word for that isn't rational discussion; it's rationalizing.

The only thing that works isn't to show people what's wrong, but to show people something better. This is why I find Planet of the Apes offensive; it's trying to tear something down, the opposite of defense.

[Sir Deimos]

this universe is a big enough place that "absolutely true" and "horribly misleading" are good bedfellows, not polar opposites.

You are going to have to explain your reasoning as this sounds like either a huge flaw in logic, or open insanity.

[Showsni]

1. How do you categorise different insults and swear words? Is bastard less vulgar than Jack Thompson?

If a technical term is being used for its correct meaning (like, "this terrier is a bitch" or "the king's son couldn't ascend the trone becasue he was a bastard") I don't mind it at all. other than that, I guess I put all swear words about equally. Blaspheming is much worse than any of the rest.

2. Blasphemy, is it a real issue or something belonging to the name of the Lord being taken in vain?

Blasphemy is much worse than swearing; it's against one of the commandments, after all. It's basically part of the "love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind" bit; using His name as a cheap swear word is disrespectful, let alone unloving.

3. What age is acceptable to swear around minors? Do you have different categories of swear words for different ages of child or adolescent?

Personally, I wouldn't swear around people of any age.

4. How much do you swear and what sort of language do you use?

I try never to use swear words if possible, though I suppose I do use some substitute words in certain situations. Lately the substitute has been "swear word" itself... Does using a word in such a connotation make it into a swear word? I guess language evolves all the time. What's seen as normal now may become obscene in the future, and vice versa...

5. When a word is directed at a certain group is it particuarly tasteless to use? For example (using the other thread), we'd all agree that faggot is hardly an acceptable word to hurl at someone, but bastard is? Is it acceptable to refer to someone in a negative manner by inferring that they are born out of wedlock, but not as a homosexual (and is that due to illegitimacy being a past issue and homosexuality still being negatively perceived in society)?

I guess the thing is that by making up a derogatory term for a whole group you're showing yourself to be prejudiced against all members of that group. Then we move on from the matter of trying to be insulting to an individual, to a person who is actually prejudiced, and what that might entail. For some of those words being seen as worse than others could reflect society's views on the related prejudices... Is calling someone a faggot worse than calling someone a ginger becuase the prejudice against homosexuals is seen as more serious than a prejudice against redheads?

6. Defending other people being insulted. This neatly applies to all of the above. As stupid as it sounds, how likely are you to feel ire at someone else being insulted. Are you simply being outraged when they themselves care or care not?

Probably depends a lot on the situation. If someone's insulting my sister, say, I'm going to be more angry than if I happen to pass two people having a slanging match in the street.

[Khallos]

Well I suppose I should give my views now I have time and inclination to sit down and type.

1. How do you categorise different insults and swear words? Is bastard less vulgar than Jack Thompson?

I pretty much lump them all together, while admittedly I stumble on some of the less PC ones I try not to. Racist slurs have as long a history as those directed against those born out of wedlock, just because one has become more acceptable and the other less so does not make them separate in intensity of abuse. Still I try and be flexible and insult everyone equally - though I'll admit I rarely use racial slurs, as most insults are directed at my friends and none of them are non-Caucasian (not 'cos I'm racist by the way).

My male friend says I love you to his girlfriend down the phone in a hushed voice, I call him gay; my housemate slams me to the floor in an argument, I tell her to get to the kitchen and make me sandwich. I don't profess to abuse and insult people because it's ironic but because the stupidity of it amuses me (maybe it's the irony or is it the tasteless and puerile sense of humour?).

2. Blasphemy, is it a real issue or something belonging to the name of the Lord being taken in vain?

As an Atheist I care little for any blasphemy. In fact some could argue I shouldn't do it as it draws attention to something I deny. It is however a classic way to bandy words at someone or show exasperation, so I see it as reasonable as any other insult.

3. What age is acceptable to swear around minors? Do you have different categories of swear words for different ages of child or adolescent?

Personally I don't think it should be an issue that people swear around children, we live in a society terrified of children behaving like adults (a creature far less mature than the child usually). None the less I try and respect parents standards and keep such things to a minimum, especially around pre-teens.

4. How much do you swear and what sort of language do you use?

Relatively often, though usually around friends who interestingly I spend most of my life with. Swearing was never overly condemned in my household particularly by my mum, and I don't see the harm in it. It's not punctuation though. I use pretty vanilla words, all the shits and fucks a man may give but also try and spice it up with some originality as well as throwing abuse at your defining characteristics (being ginger, Welsh etc).

5. When a word is directed at a certain group is it particularly tasteless to use? For example (using the other thread), we'd all agree that faggot is hardly an acceptable word to hurl at someone, but bastard is? Is it acceptable to refer to someone in a negative manner by inferring that they are born out of wedlock, but not as a homosexual (and is that due to illegitimacy being a past issue and homosexuality still being negatively perceived in society)?

While I'll call a friend a faggot, I'm not going to tear down the gay pride flag and start attacking homosexuals (I'd have to start with my girlfriend), and I certainly won't approach strangers and abuse their sexuality. I am sadly at the whim of social pressures like most of us and still may call someone I just met a stupid bastard for injuring someone, but won't attack their race.

I still feel it's a matter of intent. Calling someone a faggot because you hate homosexuals is different to calling someone a faggot because he's camp (and the biggest player I know).

6. Defending other people being insulted. This neatly applies to all of the above. As stupid as it sounds, how likely are you to feel ire at someone else being insulted. Are you simply being outraged when they themselves care or care not?

I do get annoyed when insults are slung at certain groups or people. But I feel not only this is unfair to other groups who I don't defend but it's also patronising as usually said groups can nearly always or should be able to defend themselves. Doesn't stop the insult getting the better of me and making me retaliate.

[Kwicky Koala]

1. How do you categorise different insults and swear words? Is bastard less vulgar than Jack Thompson?

I can think of three levels that I apply to my life:

1. Racial insults - would never use them, and if someone else uses them I would basically think that person was incredibly stupid and not someone I'd want anything to do with.

2. Sexual orientation insults - again, never use them, and I would look askance at someone who uses them (13 year old male describing everything as 'gay', anyone?) In my mind they aren't as bad as racial insults though. I know some people in the gay community try to put them on the same level, but in my mind racial terms are much worse. That's just my opinion though.

3. Everything else - fuck, shit, fornicator, I'm okay with all of these really. But I do find it annoying when people use them too liberally though. Like when a guy uses fuck a lot when talking to a woman he wants to impress, look how cool I am. Also, the Scarface phenomenon, don't just say fuck! Be more creative with your swear words.


2. Blasphemy, is it a real issue or something belonging to the name of the Lord being taken in vain?

As you said, being atheist I wouldn't mind personally. When you're around religious people, courtesy would make me avoid taking JC's name in vain, or any of the apostles really.

3. What age is acceptable to swear around minors? Do you have different categories of swear words for different ages of child or adolescent?

If I swear around my kid sister I'll apologise so she knows its not socially acceptable to swear, but its not a big deal for me. Around other peoples kids I wouldn't swear though, courtesy again.

4. How much do you swear and what sort of language do you use?

You need swear words for when you hurt yourself or things go wrong, and I generally reserve them for those situations. I would like to start using D&D outer planes slang more though (because 'pike off, berk' sounds pretty cool).

5. When a word is directed at a certain group is it particuarly tasteless to use? For example (using the other thread), we'd all agree that faggot is hardly an acceptable word to hurl at someone, but bastard is? Is it acceptable to refer to someone in a negative manner by inferring that they are born out of wedlock, but not as a homosexual (and is that due to illegitimacy being a past issue and homosexuality still being negatively perceived in society)?

bastard has mostly lost its edge (in the English language anyway), so its fine in my book. But insulting a person because their parents weren't married is still bad. Funny how words work.

6. Defending other people being insulted. This neatly applies to all of the above. As stupid as it sounds, how likely are you to feel ire at someone else being insulted. Are you simply being outraged when they themselves care or care not?

Insults definately depend on context, if someone is being bullied I think you have a duty to stand up for the person (whether I would do it is of course subject to my reticence and cowadice). If its between friends, well, friends have their rules about what is and isn't ok, in-jokes etc.

[Egann]

1. How do you categorise different insults and swear words? Is bastard less vulgar than Jack Thompson?

This word vulgar perfectly describes the situation. "Lacking good taste." Ironically, because of its over-use in recent years and because of online personalities like the Nostalgia Critic, most vulgarity is actually loosing its offensibility and becoming a parody of itself. Others, however, particularly racial and sexual slurs, have been black-listed. I don't like this because it gives words more power than they really ought to have; it forgets that there is a difference between a thoughtless and vapid remark and a genuine insult.

A genuine insult never involves any particular "category" of words, but is intended to cut a person down psychologically. The classic example is

Person 1: "Well, he seems to be a modest man"

Person 2: "He has much to be modest about."

Wit and execution are part of the insult in ways that are never true with simple obscenities.

Don't get me wrong; it's not like insults should be black-listed, either, but I feel like lumping them together with vulgarity is sloppy. The two have nothing in common.

2. Blasphemy, is it a real issue or something belonging to the name of the Lord being taken in vain?

Taking the Lord's name in vain is *not* blasphemy. Blasphemy is directly insulting God, taking His name in vain is invoking God for no reason or for the sake of being provocative. The two are related, but not identical. These are things that religious people should worry about; they're about respecting God more than anything else. The non-religious? Not so much. It's not like it's impossible for atheists to respect the beliefs of theists and not blaspheme or take the Lord's name in vain, but I don't think it really matters if they don't, either.

3. What age is acceptable to swear around minors? Do you have different categories of swear words for different ages of child or adolescent?

It's not like there's an on-off age, although I loosely try to follow the movie ratings approach to language. It's not like it changes anything, but young kids screaming fucks and shits is really, really tacky.

4. How much do you swear and what sort of language do you use?

I give any vulgarities one and only one second thought; it's not worth more. In the case of the above answer, you can see what I mean if I actually used the words and a lot less so if I had said "vulgarities," so it's perfectly appropriate.

I probably use vulgarity a bit too freely, but I can live with that.

5. When a word is directed at a certain group is it particularly tasteless to use? For example (using the other thread), we'd all agree that faggot is hardly an acceptable word to hurl at someone, but bastard is? Is it acceptable to refer to someone in a negative manner by inferring that they are born out of wedlock, but not as a homosexual (and is that due to illegitimacy being a past issue and homosexuality still being negatively perceived in society)?

Meh. Like I said, I think putting these values on words gives them more power to offend than they deserve. It's a word, not an insult.

6. Defending other people being insulted. This neatly applies to all of the above. As stupid as it sounds, how likely are you to feel ire at someone else being insulted. Are you simply being outraged when they themselves care or care not?

It depends. Usually the best response to either vulgarity or an insult is to ignore it. Negative attention could make the situation worse, and it's probably not worth it, anyway. At least, not on the spot. That's not to say that I always live up to this standard, but you get the point.

this universe is a big enough place that "absolutely true" and "horribly misleading" are good bedfellows, not polar opposites.

You are going to have to explain your reasoning as this sounds like either a huge flaw in logic, or open insanity.

The idea of statistics is to collect a random sample and infer about the whole based on that sample. That doesn't work with information. Information comes together to form a model, and if you're missing one little fact the entire picture could be wrong. Coincidentally, it's basic psychology that people ignore information they don't like.

The result? Every time the relevant facts take more than a page to list, you're not going to bring them all together to form an interpretation. You're going to use some and ignore others. A fact can be entirely true, but you bring implications to the interpretation which may or may not be misleading.