56 replies to this topic

[J-Roc]

http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/story/?id=405580

Escobar, a member of the Blue Jays of the MLB, has been suspended three games for writing "TU ERE MARICON" in his eye-black which loosely translates to "You are a faggot".

In response, everyone flipped a bitch on Twitter and the Jays have suspended him for three games. He will also undergo sensitivity training.

Many of his countrymen claimed that the phrase is a common one, and is not a homophobic slur. They say instead of it being a slur it is more along the lines of calling someone a "wuss".

Isn't that the same bullshit excuse EVERYONE in North America uses when they use the word "faggot"?

What is your opinion on this? Is the word a slur? Was the punishment appropriate?

Personally, I think that Escobar should be out of the league. The word is most certainly a slur and as far as the people I've talked to are concerned does literally translate and the excuse of it being "lost in translation" they say is complete bullshit. So, no, the punishment was not sufficient, IMO.

Edited by Sharpy, 18 September 2012 - 11:51 PM.

[JRPomazon]

I can understand why people are upset because of the insult but frankly this is coming off as another example of militant political correctness. He shouldn't lose his job and career because he said something nasty but as long as he is reprimanded by his lack of sportsmanship then as far as I'm concerned it'll all be squared away.

[Selena]

Straightforward violation of their policy on not displaying any slurs or derogatory comments. Although, really, they shouldn't be allowed to have messages of any kind on their eye-black in order to eliminate these sort of complications all together. Either way, a simple enough punishment for a first offense. The vast majority of male athletes do the whole "lol faggot!" thing on so regular a basis that they don't even think about it, and I doubt he gave it much thought before throwing it on there. Especially for a Latino. Maricon certainly means faggot, but it doesn't have the controversial stigma that the English "faggot" has - simply because nobody really pays attention to Spanish slurs - and so they use it as part of common speech with far less hesitation. The test is seeing if he does something like this again after receiving this swift smack on the wrist.

I think dropping him from the league would be overly dramatic at this stage.



I mean, displaying a taboo word is a hell of a lot less offensive than Michael Vick's horrific abuse of dogs, and that doucherocket is still playing. And the dedicated football worshipers still love the asshole.

[wisp]

Yeah, I think firing him would be a bit extreme for one offence. But I do think they need to encourage him to apologize and ensure that he doesn't do it again. If he insists on continuing to do it after being reprimanded, then perhaps stronger measures would be appropriate.

On the one hand, I love that the internet seems to have encouraged people to speak out and educate each other on what things are offensive and should stop being socially acceptable. On the other hand, I hate that the immediate reaction for all minor infractions has become "let's start an internet hate campaign against that person, ruin their social life, and make them lose their job." And I hate that in some cases that actually works.

[Hana-Nezumi]

Three games is definitely not a long enough suspension... A professional athlete, making a professional salary, should never publicly display insults of any kind during a game. It's highly inappropriate.

But unfortunately, the ways things should be are far from the way things are... and he gets off easy. Go figure.

[Egann]

I have only one reaction.

...Wha?

I could see being offended by Escobar's artistic endeavours...if he had scribbled it on the back of someone else's jersey or something like that, but something on his own face? Obviously directed at nobody in particular? On a first offense? I'm not convinced disciplinary action was even called for; just during the inning switch have a manager ask him to wipe it off and make no more of it. Further punishment is probably for the sake of PR...which is not the way any institution should be run.

Canada has even more inclusive free-speech laws than the United States does, and considering it was intended to be humorous and not offensive, I don't think this qualifies as hate-speech, either. Immature, to be sure, but still well within bounds. Now, I'm not saying that the legal right applies completely to this context; it reflects poorly on the Blue Jays and on MLB as a whole, but it does give us a sense of context. Freedom of Speech does not have an ancillary right to not be offended.

Let me put this in perspective. I found the original Planet of the Apes to be genuinely insulting and offensive, not because of any word it used, but because it singled out and belittled my personal beliefs. I did nothing, and I am doing nothing. I disagree vehemently with what was said, and I do feel hurt by the way it was said, but I refuse to let my emotional security be at stake. In good Voltaire-like fashion, I'll defend the right to say it, even if I don't like it. Reacting like this to just the use of one word? As a joke?

Why is it everybody else gets to pitch fits and I can't? Am I the only person in this universe who's expected to have a thick skin?! Grow up already!


Damn, that felt good.

Edited by Egann, 19 September 2012 - 08:37 AM.

[Sir Turtlelot]

Except this is a professional athlete and Planet of the Apes is fictional. It's not a matter of free speech, but a matter of how we expect professionals to conduct themselves, especially those who are/could be looked up to by a younger audience. While I certainly disagree with any notion of kicking him out of the league for a first offense, some sort of action was necessary to show that this sort of behavior is not tolerable by professionals.

Edited by Sir Turtlelot, 19 September 2012 - 08:44 AM.

[Hana-Nezumi]

Except this is a professional athlete and Planet of the Apes is fictional. It's not a matter of free speech, but a matter of how we expect professionals to conduct themselves, especially those who are/could be looked up to by a younger audience. While I certainly disagree with any notion of kicking him out of the league for a first offense, some sort of action was necessary to show that this sort of behavior is not tolerable by professionals.

Exactly. ESPECIALLY since he was at a televised event. And while on the clock and making buckets o' cash.

I'm also not buying his claim that he didn't intend to offend anybody. You don't write "YOU'RE A HOMO" on your face without at least intending to ruffle some feathers.

This is not an issue of having "thick skin". This is different from banter between two friends who call each other 'maricon' all the time. It's about what's okay for a participating athlete to publicly display at a televised MLB game.

[J-Roc]

A couple points you all were apparently unaware of:

Nobody noticed it. The picture that is shown on the TSN article was actually snapped by a fan, who revealed it three days after the fact, apparently after much personal deliberation as he was aware it was going to cause a shit storm.

Also, it is against MLB rules to write ANYTHING on the eye black. Its also against the rules to wear jewelery, but you'll see guys do both all the time and rarely does it become a problem (last time I remember it happening was when Jeter wanted that pitcher to take his earrings out during the playoffs because he said the reflection off of the diamonds screwed up his timing).

I also find that the way that he has handled it since this has all come to light has been an even bigger black mark on the MLB then doing this in the first place. Escobar told reporters yesterday that he wasn't homophobic because his hairstylist and interior decorator are gay. Is he trying to be even more offensive?

Just like two black guys calling each other niggers, the word faggot should only be used by someone if they are quoting some other asshole who said it. Enough of this "its OK to say it because I'm gay" or "because I'm black". Just fucking stop using these words, they are a lot more then annoying or offensive, they are disgusting and represent something far more evil then prejudice.

[Selena]

(last time I remember it happening was when Jeter wanted that pitcher to take his earrings out during the playoffs because he said the reflection off of the diamonds screwed up his timing).

Distinctly remember this happening at a Mariners game -- can't recall if it's the same instance. Snarky stadium officials then played "Blinded by the Light" at full blast every time the complaining player stepped up to the plate.



Egann, Planet of the Apes going against your beliefs is not comparable and you have the logical skills to know that.



You wouldn't get away with writing "you're a nigger" on yourself during a televised game with thousands of people in attendance and at least a million more watching at home. Words like "faggot" and "dyke" and "c*nt" seem less abhorrent because they're used more commonly in every day speech, at least amongst certain members of the population, but that doesn't mean they're not in the same category of offense. You can be punished for that sort of thing even if you're a dock worker that's out of the public eye.

The fact that he was caught by a fan was likely a big factor in him getting an actual punishment. Employers are always more quick to punish an employee if a customer reports something. Had someone in the dugout taken him aside to wipe it off, he probably wouldn't have gotten any punishment whatsoever unless the media jumped on it later.

That said, it would be extremely surprising if they outright dropped someone from the team for a first offense like this. A three-game suspension is in line with most first time offenses. It is suitable for setting a precedent and telling the entire league that "this will not be tolerated." MLB players are rarely suspended for anything outside of steroid use.

[Egann]

Egann, Planet of the Apes going against your beliefs is not comparable and you have the logical skills to know that.

No, I don't. Pray tell, how can a word be more offensive than an idea?

[Oberon Storm]

One is a movie you can turn off while the other is an individual behaving inappropriately in public while representing his employer?

Edited by The Son of Jor-El, 19 September 2012 - 10:49 PM.

[Selena]

Egann, Planet of the Apes going against your beliefs is not comparable and you have the logical skills to know that.

No, I don't. Pray tell, how can a word be more offensive than an idea?

Uh, pretty much what CFS said.

The whole point of fiction is to play with ideas. They are not always going to be ideas we all agree with. They will sometimes go against our personal beliefs. That should be absolutely expected when you pick up a book or watch a movie. The original Dune series contained homophobia. As another example, I am in deep disagreement with many of the beliefs Orson Scott Card inserts into some of his books. Depending on the creator's views, you can expect to be offended at one point or another. But these things aren't meant to be personal attacks. They're part of a fictional world. You can choose to agree or disagree. These are expected risks we take when reading a work of fiction.

"You're a faggot" is a personal attack - even if it's not directed at a specific individual. It is not part of some sweeping world building experience. It is not a deep analysis of society, even if it's one someone disagrees with. It is not a playing with an idea and the consequences of that idea. It's not fiction. It's just being a douche. "You're a nigger" is also a personal attack. "Fuck Christians" is a personal attack. "Muslims should burn" is too. Anything like that. It's also during a live game in which this sort of thing is neither expected nor tolerated.

I am not truly offended if someone writes a sensible, detailed essay that takes a negative stance against homosexuality, liberals, or whatever else I'm affiliated with. I don't stop reading Dune just because Frank Herbert hated gays, and I don't stop reading Orson Scott Card just because he's decided to get up on the Mormon pedestal for a few pages.

I am definitely offended if someone yells out "FUCKIN' DYKE" or displays something like that. It's not an argument. It's not a thesis. It's not a story I happen to disagree with. It's an insult.

[J-Roc]

Resevoir Dogs. Do you actually think, for how much I adore these characters, that I would actually respect would be thugs like this? Of course not, the charm is in the characterization, the embodiment... one would call it, a performance.

Whenever I hear a sad song sometimes I think back to sad times and like Lena and Chief pointed out, my radios off switch was readily available (and used).

EDIT:

Bob Mckeown (sp?) has a superb radio talk show in Toronto which is televised on Sportsnet. He had the Blue Jays manager on the phone and said exactly what I was thinking. He told Alex that if he or Alex called someone a faggot in public, that they would be fired. As we all would. Isn't it insult enough to working people that this jackass makes $5 million a year? Let him go A ball if you feel so sorry for him.

Edited by Sharpy, 20 September 2012 - 12:16 AM.

[Khallos]

Within the hispanic world maricon is used more commonly I'd say than the english equivalent faggot. Hell, my friend was called a maricon over the summer daily because he didn't smoke. And told he was one because he tried to dissuade someone for smoking near a fuel pump ("Don't worry maricon, diesel don't light easy).

Not saying it was justified, just that to a further extent hispanic culture is far more casually homophobic; this being perhaps the greater problem than the one well known individual doing it publicly. This is no fags burn in hell none the less, this is you're a faggot because I'm harder than you. Still calling it unprofessional is the best that can be said, and while I'd expect the punishment to be more severe, if it's standard dosage for such a discretion then eh. Ultimately the main damage will be his personal fan base and that of the Blue Jays.

[Egann]

He had the Blue Jays manager on the phone and said exactly what I was thinking. He told Alex that if he or Alex called someone a faggot in public, that they would be fired.

Except that's comparing Apples and oranges because he didn't call anybody anything. He painted "you're gay! Tehe!" on his face. Infantile to be sure, but it's not the same.

I understand MLB being pissed and really, it's a private organization, so they can do whatever they want to their players within legal bounds, which includes firing him, but calling for him to be fired? Really? This isn't trying to do the right thing. It's scape-goating a foolish player to black-list a word. Is this 1984 or something?

It's just a word. Its meaning is arbitrary, and acting like it's somehow special (especially in the negative sense) gives it a lot more power than it deserves.

*a long and well thought out post*

Response over on Insults thread.

[Sir Turtlelot]

Its meaning is not arbitrary. If it were, than it should be the same thing as writing "All hail the hamburger king!", which it clearly is not. He may have not intended to offend anyone, but the fact is he did. You are right by saying it's immature, which it is, but being a professional he is expected behave in a certain manner, which he clearly did not. Offensive or not, professionals should be expected to act like professionals and nothing less.

[J-Roc]

Egann, the guy also stated it would be the same if he wrote faggot on his face during the televison broadcast.

THIS IS A NATIONAL BROADCAST.

The Blue Jays are our ONLY ball club. Like it or not, they represent our whole COUNTRY for this sport.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

All I know is that I wish I could just be as witty as the gay politician in this video. However, here we have a conundrum.

Is what BRIAN BLESSED said (poof being an offensive word for homosexual) on a par with what was said by Escobar? Mr Alan Duncan, the "poof" in question managed a very witty reparté in response to Mr BRIAN BLESSED's insult. And everybody laughed it off. Nobody got into trouble over this, presumably because they all thought it was part of the comedy routine. But was it? Should people have laughed at it?

I see these two events as comparable. There's no need to punish Escobar. Merely mock him for his backward insult and be done with it. If he is a laughing stock because of what he said, then nobody should be able to take his insult seriously as something that should be imitated.

Edited by Wolf O'Donnell, 21 September 2012 - 12:46 PM.

[J-Roc]

I see these two events as comparable. There's no need to punish Escobar. Merely mock him for his backward insult and be done with it. If he is a laughing stock because of what he said, then nobody should be able to take his insult seriously as something that should be imitated.

But he won't be. That's the problem. If we lived in this perfect world of yours where evil was ridiculed for being such and as a result did not want to be evil any longer... well, we'd probably be doing loftier things then discussing some jackass baseball player.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Evil? This isn't evil. It's just jackass stupidity.

[J-Roc]

Jackass stupidity.



Evil



Jackass stupidity



Evil

[Sir Turtlelot]

You're both right. No, the athlete's action was by no means evil, simply a stupid (albeit offensive and highly inappropriate) joke, which is apart of a much larger problem, that does extend into evil, as Sharpy has pointed out.

[SOAP]

Ok being both hispanic and gay i feel i should say something. My cellphone is my only means to get online so i will make this brief. On one hand it is true that word doesnt hold the same impact as saying faggot but on the other hand latin culture isnt always as progressive on social issues. For example, a lot of puerto rican men still are stuck with the mentality that women are sex objects and baby makers. So of course hes not going see a big deal with using a gay slur when gay people barely register as fellow human beings in latin culture. Do i think hes evil? No. I think he made a stupid comment based off ignorance. Getting suspended and sent to sensitivity training seems pretty appropriate at this point.

[J-Roc]

Ok being both hispanic and gay i feel i should say something. My cellphone is my only means to get online so i will make this brief. On one hand it is true that word doesnt hold the same impact as saying faggot but on the other hand latin culture isnt always as progressive on social issues. For example, a lot of puerto rican men still are stuck with the mentality that women are sex objects and baby makers. So of course hes not going see a big deal with using a gay slur when gay people barely register as fellow human beings in latin culture. Do i think hes evil? No. I think he made a stupid comment based off ignorance. Getting suspended and sent to sensitivity training seems pretty appropriate at this point.

No issue with his comments afterwards about him not being homophobic because both his interior decorator and hairstylist are gay?

[Wolf O'Donnell]

You're both right. No, the athlete's action was by no means evil, simply a stupid (albeit offensive and highly inappropriate) joke, which is apart of a much larger problem, that does extend into evil, as Sharpy has pointed out.

Only barely. It's on the same level as what Brian Blessed said in that video I posted and nobody (or at least, very few) people got up in arms over that.

[Selena]

Seriously, for as stupid/insensitive as the action is, calling it outright "evil" is extremely dramatic. And nowhere near the level of Westboro.



...And really, sometimes it's a super-effective word when it's not used as a deliberate slur against someone simply based on sexual orientation!

[SOAP]

Ok being both hispanic and gay i feel i should say something. My cellphone is my only means to get online so i will make this brief. On one hand it is true that word doesnt hold the same impact as saying faggot but on the other hand latin culture isnt always as progressive on social issues. For example, a lot of puerto rican men still are stuck with the mentality that women are sex objects and baby makers. So of course hes not going see a big deal with using a gay slur when gay people barely register as fellow human beings in latin culture. Do i think hes evil? No. I think he made a stupid comment based off ignorance. Getting suspended and sent to sensitivity training seems pretty appropriate at this point.

No issue with his comments afterwards about him not being homophobic because both his interior decorator and hairstylist are gay?

That pretty much falls under what i said anout him making comments based off ignorance. Either hes a product of hispanic culture where gay people are still seen as silly caricatures and simply did not know better (understandable but still not excuseable) or he did know better and just made a tasteless joke. Either way its ignorance and i think it was dealt with properly where he and others can be educated about how using gay slurs isnt cool or funny. Hopefully. I dont think it needs to be taken beyond that.

[Mark]

In my mind there are significant similarities between the islamists rioting about the funky movie / danish cartoon / satanic verses, and some fella being repremanded because something which he wrote could have been taken as a 'homophobic slur'.


I am with egann, the majorities cop shit. whence do the minorities get exemption?

[Sir Turtlelot]

Rioting and making an offensive remark, how incredibly similar.