26 replies to this topic

[Wolf O'Donnell]

So, I was thinking about the timeline again, when I began to wonder, would it be possible to fix the timeline by ignoring one game and pretending it never existed? Would you need to ignore more than one?

I think we should play around with just one game for now to make things interesting. If you could eliminate one game from history, what would it be and would it fix your timeline problems?

I myself have wondered whether getting rid of Ocarina of Time would be a good idea. It destroys the excuse for having split timelines, which some people really love to hate.

[MikePetersSucks]

I'd like to throw out the Four Swords trilogy, myself. Or Oracles. Those both piss me off.

[joeymartin64]

I'd like to throw out the Four Swords trilogy, myself.

THIS

Without FSA's "hay guys new ganon lol" knuckleball, it takes less bullshitting to get everything onto one timeline. Marginally so, but eh. I also wouldn't mind tossing out Spirit Tracks (never even played it), because creating an entire mythology out of trains is just fucking goofy and stupid, even by Nintendo/Zelda standards.

[SteveT]

Can we decanonize Skyward Sword just because?

Ocarina was the source of all sorts of timeline confusion, and a few paradoxes. Wind Waker caused similar problems, with the confusion of multiple Hyrules, and Ganon reverting to Ganondorf. Four Swords, of course, never to even tried to fit into a timeline.

[Sir Turtlelot]

I'd like to throw out the Four Swords trilogy, myself.

THIS

Without FSA's "hay guys new ganon lol" knuckleball, it takes less bullshitting to get everything onto one timeline. Marginally so, but eh. I also wouldn't mind tossing out Spirit Tracks (never even played it), because creating an entire mythology out of trains is just fucking goofy and stupid, even by Nintendo/Zelda standards.

I third this notion. The FSS is a cruel joke to the timeline.

[Hero of Slime]

I am so glad there is now a thread to discuss this becasue for a long time I have thought a timeline could be made by removing one game.

The Game is ALttP.

Even before TWW and TP the were problems reconciling this games back story with OoT. More problems arose after sequels to OoT were imagined. We in the timeline community waited for Nintendo to make a game that would reconcile ALttP with the OoT/TWW/TP split but that game never came. It seemed to me like the game makers had forgotten all about ALttP.

In the timeline with out ALttP, I would put LoZ-AoL-OoX-LA on the Child timeline. FS and FSA would go on the Adult timeline after ST.

[Showsni]

If we're just getting rid of one game, ALttP probably is the one to go. Getting rid of any of the more side games (Oracles, LA, FS saga) doesn't really fix anything; they're so loosely attached to the timeline, it doesn't really make a difference. Getting rid of OoT probably just leaves too many threads dangling; TWW loses its prequel, MM loses its prequel and so on. ALttP is less well connected than OoT, and might clear a few things up if it were gone... But I wouldn't want to lose it myself. How about TP? Yeah, let's just ditch TP. That makes my single timeline much happier!

[Sir Turtlelot]

Can we also excise creator quotes? If so, TMC being early in the timeline and HH's explanation of the DT are out the window for me.

[MikePetersSucks]

I've never really given a single shit about creator commentary, and it works out great for my timeline!

[Hero of Slime]

I myself have wondered whether getting rid of Ocarina of Time would be a good idea.

I think it could work if we assume the back stories of all its sequels are just historical back ground not connected to any game. It would make the back stories of TP, TWW and ALttP like the backstory of TMC. There would be a single timeline with Ganon being continually reborn and taking the Triforce.

I would do somthing like this.

SS-TMC-FS-FSA-TP-ALttP-LA-LoZ-AoL-OoX-MM-TWW-PH-ST.

MM occurs after TWW's back story. Now the Legend of the Fairy fits in there. (O how I miss the days of the single timeline)

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Hm, looks like we have a consensus on ALttP, even though that game didn't really cause any timeline crises to begin with.

[Sir Turtlelot]

I've never really given a single shit about creator commentary, and it works out great for my timeline!

Fair enough. I only take them when the games lack an explanation.

Hm, looks like we have a consensus on ALttP, even though that game didn't really cause any timeline crises to begin with.

I'm not so sure, OoT and the FSS also seem to have a few votes too.

[Masamune]

I will excise The Legend of Zelda.

And then there is no series at all. Mission accomplished.

[Hero of Slime]

In a timeline where Zelda never existed, this forum would not exist either.

Edited by The Zol, 04 September 2012 - 06:02 PM.

[Sir Turtlelot]

What a horrible world. D:

Well at least I would have a soul, I suppose.

Edited by Sir Turtlelot, 04 September 2012 - 07:57 PM.

[Fin]

Hm, looks like we have a consensus on ALttP, even though that game didn't really cause any timeline crises to begin with.

This makes me sadface. I'd sooner get rid of every game released since 2000 than remove LttP. The first five or so games have the most compelling mythology.

[SteveT]

Hm, looks like we have a consensus on ALttP, even though that game didn't really cause any timeline crises to begin with.

This consensus is bad and you should feel bad.

[Sir Turtlelot]

Actually, the FSS was voted on three times (MPS, joeymartin, and myself), whereas ALttP was only voted on once (The Zol), since Showsni only said ALttP would make sense, but he actually voted for TP.

[Fin]

I suppose I'd vote the Four Swords games too. If I was forced to choose just one it would be Four Swords Adventures.

[Hero of Slime]

Why do you all think FSA causes problems in the timeline? The only one I can see is the fact that Ganon is sealed in the Four Sword but that is not a big problem if one considers multiple Ganons. If there are multiple Links why not multiple Ganons? Also I have seen FSA have a few different places in timelines, showing that it is quite flexible as far as the storyline goes.

Edited by The Zol, 04 September 2012 - 11:38 PM.

[Sir Turtlelot]

It's not really an issue of multiple Ganons, the issue with FSA (and the rest of the FSS) is that it has no definite connections with the rest of the series, making a solid placement near impossible. At least that's always been my problem with it.

I actually made a thread not too long ago discussing that particular issue, along with the OoX to a lesser extent.

Edited by Sir Turtlelot, 04 September 2012 - 11:46 PM.

[Hero of Slime]

Thanks. I think I understand your position and I think I see how we differ. I see the Four Sword Series as flexible whereas you see that flexibility as an uncertainty becasue it leaves the timeline up to speculation.

Edited by The Zol, 05 September 2012 - 12:01 AM.

[Sir Turtlelot]

Exactly. Personally, I find that the less speculation the better. I enjoy reading, and occasionally writing, fan theories, but I would much rather have completely solid placement of the games, making for a stronger timeline. That was actually the one good thing about HH's explanation of the DT, it eliminated OoX's possible placements on the DT, leaving its only option after TP. I'm still hoping for a better explanation of their reasoning though.

[MikePetersSucks]

The first five or so games have the most compelling mythology.

Not to derail the thread or anything, but I'm curious what makes you think this, considering that the original three games are quite sparse on storytelling.

[Hero of Slime]

Well LoZ was the basic boy goes on adventure to save the girl. It's pretty simple but that can be compelling, maybe?

[joeymartin64]

Let me try this. I don't quite know if I necessarily agree with this, but I think this is where it's coming from. IT IS TIME FOR LIST FORMAT TIME:

-The first game establishes the good guy, the bad guy, the damsel in distress and a bit of the world at large. It also establishes the basic groundwork for the series-spanning mythology surrounding the Triforce(s).

-The second game expands on this by introducing the third Triforce, and establishing, both in-game and in its backstory, that when all three are together, it's some pretty amazing shit.

-The third game greatly expands on the mythology by establishing the deities responsible for the origin of the Triforce (and the world), fills in more about the villain's past, fleshes out the world much more than the previous games did, and features an interesting dual-world mechanic that's tied into the mythology surrounding the Triforce. It shows us just what the united Triforce is capable of in both the hands of good and not-so-good. AND it introduces us to the Master Sword.

-Fourth game was a side-story starring the hero from the previous game AND ONLY THE PREVIOUS GAME NO LATER ONES

-Fifth game shows us a good bit of what the third one told us about the villain, and some other stuff about him. Again, the world is fleshed out and the mythos is expanded. We're further in the past now, so it's more detailed. It is the time of legends as referred to in the third game, so naturally we're going to know the same stuff, but more about it. The story plays out like a tweaked version of the third game's backstory (which, by the way, left itself open to subtle rejiggering by using language like "obscured by the mists of time.")

-Sixth was another side story. I'll stop here.

The point of all this? Every (non-side) game was building on the previous one. They were all working with the established mythos, and they were adding to it without feeling too forced about it, since the additions were not solely for gameplay reasons. There were tweaks and differences, yeah, but it felt like a unified series, and a unified mythos.

It really lost that cohesion when newer games would add shit to the mythos as weak excuses for gameplay mechanics/gimmicks. You could say it started with OoT involving time travel just because time travel is cool, and I guess you could even say it started with ALttP's Dark World, but fuck me if it didn't just get progressively worse as time went on. Oh, we used this magic baton long ago (we totally did, honest) because sailing. There's this magic race of tiny dudes because shrinking. There's this sword that splits dudes up because multiplayer (this was where I thought it really started getting bad). There's another parallel world because ... wolves? And eventually, finally, it just got unforgivably fucking stupid: The ancient Demon King, the doom of all mankind, was sealed long ago with magic railroad tracks because FUCKING TRAINS.

So, yeah, I've probably completely misrepresented Fin's point here, but I guess it's food for thought.

[MikePetersSucks]

Well LoZ was the basic boy goes on adventure to save the girl. It's pretty simple but that can be compelling, maybe?

But doesn't every game have that? I'm not trying to argue or anything, don't get me wrong, I just find this sort of stuff fascinating.

There's this magic race of tiny dudes because shrinking.

I just wanted to pick this out and point out that the Minish are basically playing the role of the Brownies and Pixies of the Hyrule universe, and are basically that little bit of childhood magic that kids are brought up to believe put coins under rocks and things. I really, really liked that and it fits in with the setting perfectly, even if it's not strictly necessary.

But yea, if that Fin's food for thought, I guess I can kind of see it, but I always thought all that stuff was really cool and set Zelda apart from being a Fantasy Heartbreaker! Holy shit, the industrial revolution is a leyline system sealing away Satan! Holy shit, this sword cuts through someone's ontological existence and divides their fate-lines into four! Holy shit, there's so many goddamn musical instruments and now there's a magic baton implying there must've been some amazing Music of the Spheres concert of mega-wizards in the past!

That shit is AWESOME to me.

[Chaltab]

If there was any game I'd excise from the timeline it would proably just be GBA Four Swords. It's a small and unremarkable adventure that doesn't really have much impact on the timeline. If anything, it works better as a vague backstory to FSA and not the immediate precursor (in terms of placement, not actually chronologically) to Ocarina of Time.

[SteveT]

Not to derail the thread or anything, but I'm curious what makes you think this, considering that the original three games are quite sparse on storytelling.

JoeyMartin summed it up pretty nicely. I just want to add that the sparse storytelling was a big portion of the appeal. There was a certain sense of mystery to the world, a sense of secrets to uncover. Finding an old man in a cave to tell you one more detail about the world was just as exciting, if not more so, as a heart piece. You were exploring the story just as much as you were exploring the map. The plot of the games was a puzzle to be pieced together, not the chaotic mess of branching timelines that show there was never a solution.

By expanding the plots, adding cutscenes, explaining the history the plots became:

a) more fractured from game to game
b) boring (in that everything that can be explained is explained and the sense of mystery is gone, so the player is less engaged in piecing it together)

[Hero of Slime]

But doesn't every game have that? I'm not trying to argue or anything, don't get me wrong, I just find this sort of stuff fascinating.

I think the point I was trying to make was kind of brought Steve T. All games have the simple story but the first felt a little different. It is kind of hard to explain but I like what Steve T said about mystery and exploration. When I was going into Level 9 in LoZ, I knew the princess was in there somewhere and even after finding out she was in one of the eyes I was still unsure how to get there. To me this felt a little different then the more linear final dungeons in later Zelda games.

I was merely trying to explore Finn's perspective because I more so agree with you. I think the new elements added to every game make the Zelda storyline better. My favorite mysterious aspects in every Zelda game is the pressence of temples and artifacts left over from an ancient civilization. Very few of them are given much explaination and each one added gives more mystery to the ancient hylian civilization. I felt the same way you did about the Wind Waker. It explains the purpose of the many sacred instruments in Hyrule as an aspect of their worship.