10 replies to this topic

[Egann]

So this morning I took a detour from my normal web habits to see what manner of horrible news is in the world. The results are...depressing.

Iran: Israel's Existence an Insult to All Humanity

Saudi Cleric Questions Holocaust. And says that Jews Consume the Blood of Children.

Muslim Brotherhood Begins Crucifying Political Rivals In Egypt
(Potentially more reliable source)

Oh, and Egypt is moving tanks into the Sinai (potentially a breach of a treaty with Israel) and there are rumors Israel is gearing up for war with Iran before it gets nuclear weapons. In other news, Islamorealism Ad Strikes Controversy.


Only consider these questions to be conversation starters. I usually don't ask questions like these because I find that I often write leading questions, but I've tried to phrase these questions neutrally. If you've got an opinion, though, pay these no mind.

1. Do you expect another Middle East war or not? Will it be a justified war? Do you expect the UN or President Obama to do anything?


2. What do you make of the situation in Egypt? Is there still a chance for fair democracy there, or do you think the situation is exaggerated? Is it possible for what we think of as democracy to exist under Sharia Law? Do you consider Sharia Law to be part of mainstream Islam, radical Islam, or neither?


3. What do you think of the Islamorealism ad? Does it unfairly attack Islam as a whole, or will this campaign force Islam proper to separate itself from radical Islam?


Discuss.

[J-Roc]

Er... touchy subject, I'm just going to answer your questions to begin with and then once a few of our esteemed colleagues have weighed in perhaps I'll dive in a bit more.

1. Do you expect another Middle East war or not? Will it be a justified war? Do you expect the UN or President Obama to do anything?
Its reasonable to expect further conflict anywhere in the world while we continue to have such an unbalanced socioeconomic system in place in this world. If the conflict were to revolve around Israel I would expect the US and the UN to help out because they have promised that they would for the past decade. Part of the problem with the Middle East is that Israelis get painted with the same brush that North American governments used to paint the Afghans and Iraqis... they are all a bunch of extremist fuckwads. I support the Jews, but Zionists are as insane if not more so then the Taliban or any of these other extremist sects that are most often pointed to as "what's wrong with the Middle East". While all of this posturing is a part of the process, I think trying to educate the people of Iran and these other countries would serve the world better. It would also serve the world better if action was taken against extremist Zionists who are guilty of aggravating tensions for their own agenda.


2. What do you make of the situation in Egypt? Is there still a chance for fair democracy there, or do you think the situation is exaggerated? Is it possible for what we think of as democracy to exist under Sharia Law? Do you consider Sharia Law to be part of mainstream Islam, radical Islam, or neither?

Russia is considered a power more than Egypt, and yet still struggles to provide fair and reputable democracy. The question for me is, why did we have to force these governments to change? Is there another system the people would have preferred? There will always be struggles during the beginning of any government.

That being said, Sharia law and true freedom are oil and water. Sharia law, to me, is radical Islam. The mainstream seems to be evolving with the times just as Christianity has. Christians are no longer pelting homosexuals with rocks and Sharia law gives men the right to do that to women... its a pretty simple train of thought for me.

3. What do you think of the Islamorealism ad? Does it unfairly attack Islam as a whole, or will this campaign force Islam proper to separate itself from radical Islam?

Incredibly interesting question. I can't feign to have the answer because I do not have a deep enough understanding of Islam but obviously the idea there is to separate the mainstream from the radicals.

[Egann]

Let me start by saying that the Islam/Sharia Law combo is basically static a theory of everything. It doesn't provide nations and cultures what they need, but it pretends to have the answer to every question and refers back to its own authority in a closed circle which offers no chance for improvement. The result is so devastating that it has only three possible ends...although these aren't exactly mutually exclusive.

A Reformation. Christianity has had a reformation. Heck, Hinduism has had two. Religions tend to live in the past, so periodically they need a good spanking to come to terms with the needs of the present. The Islam/ Sharia Law combo is the one which badly needs one at the moment. When combined with Sharia Law, Islam becomes perverted into legalized misogyny and offers very poor civil rights to non-Muslims. Eventually something will crack, probably women's rights, opening up other places to question authority.

A War. The only reason this isn't happening already is economic. Quite a few Islamic authorities (the ones who like Sharia Law) are like the ones in Iran, and want war with the West, but without our oil money the leaders know they would regress three hundred years of economic growth.

Irrelevance. If the Arab people do not at least begin to break Sharia Law before the West outgrows it's use of oil, they'll degenerate into warring hunter-gatherers again. Remember: education is one of the most expensive commodities there is, and aside from oil the Middle East doesn't exactly have too many resources. Cut the flow of the West's oil money, and they will no longer be economically capable of collecting enough ideas to move forward culturally. I find this thought very depressing.

Do you expect another Middle East war or not? Will it be a justified war? Do you expect the UN or President Obama to do anything?

There is no chance that Israel will let Iran develop a nuke. They'll be apprehensive about going to war because their fighters aren't capable of getting to Iran and back (and the US has said they won't offer refueling abilities) but Iran has missiles which can carry nukes to Israel. It's self-defense to act if they get too close.

That said, MAN UP AND BUY SOME P-51's. This is Iran we're talking about, not some first world superpower. You fighters hardly need to be the newest toy on the block.

What do you make of the situation in Egypt? Is there still a chance for fair democracy there, or do you think the situation is exaggerated? Is it possible for what we think of as democracy to exist under Sharia Law? Do you consider Sharia Law to be part of mainstream Islam, radical Islam, or neither?

The Muslim Brotherhood is bad news, or at least is now. Just like the Bolcheviks, they had a plan they wanted to enact the instant the revolution happened; in this case, Sharia Law. The worst downside of a theory of everything is that it's a blueprint which springs up everywhere.

If it's not obvious by now, I think that Sharia Law is probably the single best defining trait of radical Islam.

What do you think of the Islamorealism ad? Does it unfairly attack Islam as a whole, or will this campaign force Islam proper to separate itself from radical Islam?

Yes, the ad unfairly attacks Islam as a whole, but that might be a good thing in the long run. If this manages to drive a wedge between Islam and Sharia Law in the West, it might begin to do the same thing in the Middle East, triggering social changes there for the better and making people abandon Sharia Law. It's unfortunate Islam has to get a black eye in the process, but I think stopping crucifixions justifies bruising egos any day of the week.

[Khallos]

Irrelevance. If the Arab people do not at least begin to break Sharia Law before the West outgrows it's use of oil, they'll degenerate into warring hunter-gatherers again. Remember: education is one of the most expensive commodities there is, and aside from oil the Middle East doesn't exactly have too many resources. Cut the flow of the West's oil money, and they will no longer be economically capable of collecting enough ideas to move forward culturally. I find this thought very depressing.

While I agree with the first two of your three points, Arabs have been urbanised for over a millennium, I doubt they'll be any degeneration to hunter-gathers as as Arabic populations were already looking down upon both nomadic Turks and Mongols as uncivilized upon contact and still with some superiority after conversion. While there might be war, even if the West outgrows oil (a thing that I doubt as long as we want plastic), and oil could still be sold to developing countries who would likely still be using oil as a cheaper alternative to whatever power source we now have.

Do you expect another Middle East war or not? Will it be a justified war? Do you expect the UN or President Obama to do anything?

I can't imagine an eventual war not happening, it's too much a hot pot of differing religious beliefs (within Islam and without). Justified? There's been very few justified wars in history and they've usually happened because a noble justification has been backed up by rich backers seeking to gain. With the UN or Obama getting involved yes (not that I'll think that such a war will happen while he's in office). Well, yes to if Israel is part of it, maybe otherwise.

What do you make of the situation in Egypt? Is there still a chance for fair democracy there, or do you think the situation is exaggerated? Is it possible for what we think of as democracy to exist under Sharia Law? Do you consider Sharia Law to be part of mainstream Islam, radical Islam, or neither?

I'm finding Egypt to be rather muddled, I'm not too sure what to believe. Was it a rigged election or were people overly influenced by the MB? If a secular government won would the West have ignored any claims of rigging because screw fair voting, we don't want extremists in power after all (I imagine many folk may be wishing for the stability of Mubarak).

I think there is a chance for fair democracy, after all there's already been one revolution - why not another? Sharia law however is abominable, having fixed laws based on your religious book written 1400 years ago is horrendous. I mean fuck having the 7th century laws of England imposed on me. Frankly I'd consider it radical Islam, but that's based of the belief Sharia is radical - I don't know what percentage of the Islamic world thinks it's normal.

What do you think of the Islamorealism ad? Does it unfairly attack Islam as a whole, or will this campaign force Islam proper to separate itself from radical Islam?

If anything from what I've heard of the ad (not watched it), but I imagine it'll radicalise people more than anything else. Stoking the fires of hate been happening from both sides, each scrapping for a fight.

[Egann]

For all two people who don't know, over last weekend there were riots in Lybia and Egypt, killing four people, including an American ambassador. Supposedly it was over an offensive youtube video which portrayed Mohammed...negatively.

Coincidentally, this occurred on the eleventh anniversary of 9-11? Or maybe not so coincidentally.

While I agree with the first two of your three points, Arabs have been urbanised for over a millennium, I doubt they'll be any degeneration to hunter-gathers as as Arabic populations were already looking down upon both nomadic Turks and Mongols as uncivilized upon contact and still with some superiority after conversion. While there might be war, even if the West outgrows oil (a thing that I doubt as long as we want plastic), and oil could still be sold to developing countries who would likely still be using oil as a cheaper alternative to whatever power source we now have.

Ish. While it's technically true that the Middle East has somewhat urbanized in that time period, it's also true that, with the exception of the Afghanistan area (which included an important trade route back in the day) the Middle East as a whole was worse than dirt poor, and without oil it would probably return to being dirt poor. While it's true that plastics do make petroleum an attractive substance in the foreseeable future, but that's assuming material science doesn't change. If our energy source changes, chances are our material science will, too (remember; before oil things like dyes and solvents were made from coal tar).

But I doubt that third world nations will ever use oil in volume. Nations which are adopting technologies tend to skip to catch up rather than use obsolete ones, most recently by skipping wired communication infrastructure to go straight to wireless cell phones. New technology usually has a higher initial price tag, but it also costs less in the long run. Third world nations like Peru are still poor because it's impractical to carry tanker-truck loads of oil up winding mountain roads. The equivalent energy in nuclear fuel is just a few ounces, and depending on how radioactive the fuel is, you could probably carry it in a backpack. That's much more practical than oil ever will be.

Edited by Egann, 15 September 2012 - 11:40 AM.

[arunma]

Ah...yes. This whole Middle East thing just turned into a shitstorm. Here you've got a shady guy with a felony criminal record making an anti-Islam movie without his own actors' knowledge and causing people to get killed. At the same time, it's a mob (well, mobs) of angry people in the Middle East and not he who did the killing, and we can't let people like that scare us out of exercising free-speech. It's a very morally-gray scenario we're dealing with.

A couple points here. First, there were a bunch of counter-protesters in Benghazi, Libya who held up signs to the effect that the killing of the US ambassador was not sanctioned by Islam, that they were not enemies of the US, etc. That's definitely a marked improvement in America's relations with the Islamic world. I think I'm not the only one who's said that if Islam's reputation is ever going to improve, then moderate Muslims need to start speaking up and being counted. We hear all the time that terrorists and other fanatics represent a small fraction of the Muslim world and so forth. True, but the problem has always been that these were the only people we ever heard from. If you remain silent and let the fanatics have their voice, then they become the de factor spokespeople of your religion. Finally we have Libyan Muslims recognizing this and eschewing the actions of the people who launched rockets at the US embassy. I hope this becomes a trend among Muslims.

Secondly, regarding the moral grayness of this whole scenario. Yes, the guy who made this movie is unscrupulous to say the least. But we've always embraced the Voltairism in America that "I disagree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." This is a country where even the KKK has the right to have its say. If we don't let this shady guy say what he wants about Islam or any other religion, then free speech is meaningless. And trying to silence him on the grounds that it will put American lives in jeopardy is effectively the same as legal censure. Yes, free speech has its limits. But those limits are along the lines of "don't reveal military secrets since it can get soldiers killed." This movie is precisely the sort of thing that American free speech is designed to protect. If people die, it's only because other people are angry. And if we're going to let angry people frighten us, then why not just go all out and declare mob rule? Because that's precisely what this is. I will say that the way this guy went about making the movie was highly questionable and maybe even illegal. But in principle, we can't keep someone quiet because what they have to say exceeds our limits of sensibility. I'm somewhat disturbed that the American media is spending so much time criticizing this movie (which I haven't even seen, by the way), and so little time discussing how violent mobs are trying to scare (shady) Americans into silence.

[J-Roc]

I watched that film in its entirety. Aside from having no quality whatsoever it doesn't even make a lick of sense anyway. It just tries to be offensive as possible. Nobody has died over South Park episodes which actually make a ton of sense and trash the shit out of religions so what does this say, really? These, again, are extremists. Look at all the people in the streets holding up signs apologizing to the USA for killing your ambassador.

The US media is blowing this out of proportion, as usual.

[Oberon Storm]

I'm somewhat disturbed that the American media is spending so much time criticizing this movie (which I haven't even seen, by the way), and so little time discussing how violent mobs are trying to scare (shady) Americans into silence.

I haven't seen it. I think I'm going to need to at this point. If only so I have a better idea of what is going on. My question is why shouldn't the media be critical? If the film is in any way inaccurate or overly infammatory why not call it out for it?

[Selena]

There have been countless instances where war between the west and middle east seemed inevitable, but we've always managed to smooth things over with diplomacy or clandestine operations. This recent tension is nothing unusual. It's likely to fade away - at least as far as the United States is concerned.

Israel is the wildcard here. Israel's been doing plenty of saber-rattling now that Iran's working with nuclear power. Almost every nation in the middle east would love to crush the Israeli government, expel the Jews, and restore Palestine to its former glory. But they won't - no matter how much they roar. Because their leaders know the United States, and possibly the rest of NATO, would jump in and give everyone a swift kick in the ass. Israel, though? They know the US will have their back. That's a lot of power at their beck and call. Even if European powers refused to back Israel, the US military - once redirected and given the 'burn it all' command - would be more than sufficient to take down every middle eastern power at once. I don't see Iran acting on their tough words. I think the ball is firmly in Israel's court.

As for Egypt and the rest of the Arab Spring movement, it's all for naught if they just trade out one corrupt government for another. I don't think there will be much progress until the younger generation moves into positions of power. Many of them want rationality, representation, and sensibility. But religious extremism has to be extinguished first. That may take a while. The middle east is similar to how Europe was during the good ol' Protestant v. Catholic shitstorm. Senseless. Arab Spring must transform into a total Arab Renaissance before anything productive happens.

Which will also assist in putting a stop to these massive rage-filled riots every time someone puts out a video that's even mildly offensive.

We should be focusing less on using muscle, and more on giving support these young supporters of democracy and reform. Just encouragement, really. They need to build their own countries; not follow a guideline established by NATO. I don't think the new Iraq or Afghanistan governments will work out in the long run for that very reason.

If the Arab people do not at least begin to break Sharia Law before the West outgrows it's use of oil, they'll degenerate into warring hunter-gatherers again.

Ish. While it's technically true that the Middle East has somewhat urbanized in that time period, it's also true that, with the exception of the Afghanistan area (which included an important trade route back in the day) the Middle East as a whole was worse than dirt poor, and without oil it would probably return to being dirt poor.

What.

Until jolly ol' Britain and the other European powers came in to put flags on everything and mess up the cultural borders, the middle east was a beacon of civilization. Your ancestors were in caves when the people of the middle east first began minting coins, writing epics, and establishing empires. The middle east was once the world's center of scientific and mathematical achievement. Their motto used to be "The blood of a scholar is more holy than the blood of a martyr." While the open deserts were the home of nomadic tribes, the heart of the middle east was never classified as dirt poor. They were affluent and well educated. All before the use of petrol as a fuel source.

The middle east is not a collection of knuckle-dragging barbarians. It's the ghost of a broken civilization that was crushed by the boots of destructive imperial influence and religious fundamentalism.

Dependence on oil has been destructive for both the west and the near east. By structuring the brunt of their economy around the export of oil, the middle east has abandoned almost everything that once made them a great independent power - religious extremism and severe anti-western sentiment are additional side effects of foreign influence. Extremely wealthy countries will enter severe depressions once the oil industry dries up, but it's a pretty off-the-wall statement to claim that they'd revert to a hunter-gatherer society. The old nomads might, because that's how they traditionally lived to begin with, but the heart of the middle east has not been barbaric since... well, the dawn of civilization.

The economy will restructure, going back to proper trade, and will probably be better off as a result. They've been trapped in this oil-greed death cycle for too long, and there will be no pretty way to end it. But it will end, and things will only go up from there as they re-embrace the science and scholastic achievements they once mastered.

[Egann]

Until jolly ol' Britain and the other European powers came in to put flags on everything and mess up the cultural borders, the middle east was a beacon of civilization. Your ancestors were in caves when the people of the middle east first began minting coins, writing epics, and establishing empires. The middle east was once the world's center of scientific and mathematical achievement. Their motto used to be "The blood of a scholar is more holy than the blood of a martyr." While the open deserts were the home of nomadic tribes, the heart of the middle east was never classified as dirt poor. They were affluent and well educated. All before the use of petrol as a fuel source.

The middle east is not a collection of knuckle-dragging barbarians. It's the ghost of a broken civilization that was crushed by the boots of destructive imperial influence and religious fundamentalism.

...Let's start with the Hadith.

The actual line is "the ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of the martyr," and it's also dubious at best. I took this from an Islamic proselytizing website's reference material.

HADITH 73

The ink of a scholar is holier than the blood of the martyr.

Related by Khateeb in The History of Baghdad 2/193. He also said it was a fabricated hadith.

The above-mentioned fabricated hadith gives preference to the method of dawa over jihad for spreading Islam. However the best method for spreading Islam is jihad and not dawa. Thus the Holy Prophet spent thirteen years in Makkah giving dawa and only approximately one hundred people embraced Islam. But when he entered Makkah with military might and Shawka (power) two thousand took their shahadah in one day.

The mujaahideen conquer lands and save the entire populace from the Hell-fire by delivering Islam to them. This accomplishment is much greater than what books can do.

Also this fabricated hadith contradicts the Holy Qur'an. Allah said: (*arabic*)

"Not equal are those of the believers who sit at home, (except those who are disabled by injury or are blind or lame), and those who strive hard and fight in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit at home." 138

[source] pgs. 106-7

So yes, while my ancestors struggled under serfdom and cowered in fear of your ancestor's attacks, Islam united the Middle East and made them do comparatively well. That's true.

It's also true that this is compared to almost no intellectual activity whatsoever and that it went to pieces circa 1250. While the immediate cause was a Mongol invasion, modern Islamic scholars don't agree why no one ever picked up the pieces afterward, and I don't know enough to have an opinion.

Meanwhile in Europe: the Magna Carta and the Unfortunately Named University of Balogna lay the groundwork for all the European history between 1300 and 1800.

A couple points here. First, there were a bunch of counter-protesters in Benghazi, Libya who held up signs to the effect that the killing of the US ambassador was not sanctioned by Islam, that they were not enemies of the US, etc. That's definitely a marked improvement in America's relations with the Islamic world. I think I'm not the only one who's said that if Islam's reputation is ever going to improve, then moderate Muslims need to start speaking up and being counted. We hear all the time that terrorists and other fanatics represent a small fraction of the Muslim world and so forth. True, but the problem has always been that these were the only people we ever heard from. If you remain silent and let the fanatics have their voice, then they become the de factor spokespeople of your religion. Finally we have Libyan Muslims recognizing this and eschewing the actions of the people who launched rockets at the US embassy. I hope this becomes a trend among Muslims.

I hope so, too. That would mean Reformation.

Edited by Egann, 19 September 2012 - 06:44 PM.

[Selena]

...Let's start with the Hadith.
[...]

All right, well, forget that one sentence, then. Even if that line is fake, the rest of the point remains - the middle east was the world's leader in science for quite a long while, and the region has been home to a great many powerful civilizations since the dawn of history, so they aren't going to flip out and become hunter-gatherers if shit hits the fan.

It's also true that this is compared to almost no intellectual activity whatsoever and that it went to pieces circa 1250. While the immediate cause was a Mongol invasion, modern Islamic scholars don't agree why no one ever picked up the pieces afterward, and I don't know enough to have an opinion.

1250?

The Ottoman Empire was a major world power until the end of World War I, and I highly doubt that scholars would completely ignore that rather important chapter of their history. Was the Empire as powerful as its western rivals? No, but that doesn't write off its accomplishments. Which would include a long period of expansion, profitable trade, continued achievements in science until the 1700s, and a string of major military victories against the west throughout the 1500s. Then, like many empires, continual mismanagement signed the death sentence. I mean, really, "side with Germany" was never a good political strategy. After that, the entire middle east was ripe for the picking by western puppeteers. The loss of the caliph only worsened religious tension.

And then oil was discovered. It all went downhill from there. Almost like a drug - can no longer imagine living without it, but causes so much trouble. Especially for a region of the world that has been traditionally independent from both the west and the east. Not anymore.

In any case, I don't think it does any good to paint the middle east as some backwards place full of mindless tent-dwelling warlords. Most people in the civilized regions of the middle east are fairly, well, normal. It's part of the big culture war for media to highlight them as glorified Tusken Raiders. There is definitely a huge philosophical movement going on with the younger generation - it's just difficult to see due to media blackouts. They're open to cooperation with the west. Encourage it. Remind them of the power and achievements the middle east once had. They have a deep and fascinating history.

All of those cooperative feelings will be gone if we do something drastic or get drug into a war. The most sensible thing for the US and Israel to do is just wait it out for as long as possible. I would expect to see many revolutions and reforms over the next twenty or thirty years - especially in Iran. Assuming no bombs go off.