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Newer Zelda's not having that "Wow" moment


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#1 TheAvengerLever

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:17 AM

Admittedly, there are only a few games in the Zelda series that actually do this, but they are the three games everyone lauds as "the best of the series."

A Link to the Past, Ocarina of Time, and Wind Waker all had a moment that was what I like to call a "game changer."

For ALTTP it was the moment Zelda and Link are transported to the Dark World. For OoT its when Link gets frozen for seven years, and for Wind Waker, it's being taken down to Hyrule.

It is not surprising that these are the games that are considered the series' best, because they take their respective stories in interesting and exciting directions. But for the life of me, I can't think of a similar moment in the two youngest additions to the series, TP and SS. Now, I'm not suggesting that such a moment is needed in every Zelda game, but I do think these brilliant twists serve to elevate the games from "good" to "fantastic" in the player's mind.

The question is to you. Was there a moment in TP or SS that had a similar impact on you? Or any other Zelda game for that matter?

#2 Fin

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:38 AM

i can't comment on skyward sword, but you know, i'd always felt that getting the master sword in twilight princess felt a little empty compared to the other games. i put it down to the formula getting stale, but now that you mention, the master sword scenes were always accompanied by some other cool plot development in the earlier games, weren't they? twilight princess does have the rather neat scenes where zant curses you and zelda sacrifices herself, but there isn't really anything that happens around there that feels like a major game changer -- even the ability to transform at will is kind of weakened by how rubbish the wolf form is most of the time. though in general twilight princess was a mess of ideas strung together with little regard for coherency. there were a few core ideas that could have lent themselves to really awesome plot developments, but the lack of focus meant everything felt too restrained. does skyward sword have similar story problems?

Edited by Shark Fin Soup, 16 May 2012 - 01:18 AM.


#3 joeymartin64

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 01:26 AM

I think TP had a few fairly strong story beats. Colin manning up, the freaky Lanayru cutscene, Midna's Lament and revisiting the Temple of Time (blatant fanservice aside) spring to mind. Midna's Lament might be the closest to a game-changing "wow" moment.

I found SS to be a bit weaker in that regard, really. Groose's face turn was very nice, but that's really about it. Personally, I feel that this because the things that I think were supposed to be huge were brought down by other things; that is, the whole land beneath the clouds deal fell flat because they didn't really do anything with the concept, and the Time Gate deal just made me think, "Wait, we're doing time travel again?" and the main quest was just a string of collect-the-pieces events, leading it to feel like little more than so much busywork.

#4 SOAP

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 02:06 AM

Maybe repetition killed a lot of the wow moments with SS. I remember the first time I entered the Silent Realm, I thought it was such a adrenaline rush. After the second and third time, it just got old quick and by the fourth time, I was not looking forward to it at all. The Sky Keep popping out of the bottom of the statue of the Goddess might have been a wow moment almost akin to the Tower of the Gods emerging from the sea, but I was spoiled before playing the game so it lost any effect it might have had on me. That's my bad for looking up spoilers on youtube. I actually thought the Imprisoned gaining wings was pretty unexpected though... I guess the newer games aren't so much one big crowning moment of awesome these days and more just little unexpected touches here and there.

#5 JRPomazon

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 09:34 AM

Spoiler

Edited by JRPomazon, 17 May 2012 - 09:52 AM.


#6 Twinrova

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 09:55 AM

That moment was pretty expected though, imo. I mean there was no way everything was gonna work out that easily; I was sitting there just waiting for Ghirahim or somebody to show up. :P

#7 Sir Deimos

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:54 AM

I think my personal wow moment for The Wind Waker was sailing the first time. It was... kinda mindblowing. It was such an organic experience. That, my friends, was when I realize I had something special. Skyward Sword was a lot of fun. I think where it falls short is because a lot of the really fun parts were just nods to fun parts of the series past.

#8 Crimson Lego

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 11:21 AM

TP - definitely the part where Link first turns into a wolf (I thought the game has glitched up at that point). Getting the Master Sword and helping that Goron in Castle Town were other ones too.

WW - restoring power to the Master Sword.

#9 JRPomazon

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:51 PM

Skyward Sword had a pretty generic anime plot, something I feel that Nintendo did to appeal to a majority of younger fans both in Japan and other countries. Unfortunately, this limits what "WOW" moments could be had. However, I found that there were plenty of interesting and dynamic experiences original to that game in the form of cutscenes.

Spoiler

Edited by JRPomazon, 17 May 2012 - 09:51 AM.


#10 Egann

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 01:46 PM

I haven't played SS, nor have I spoiled myself on it too much, so I won't comment on it. But I am in the middle of a replay of Twilight Princess at the moment.


I have to say, the game is better than I remembered it being. A LOT better, and that's saying something because I've always liked it. The problem is that Nintendo didn't realize how great a game it was until they were already done developing it, because there were quite a few truly impressive moments.

The first major horse battle in TP (the one where Colin is captured) is probably the most epic battle in Zelda history. No, scratch that; it's one of the most epic battles in GAMING history. Epona isn't as fast as the orc's boar, so you actually have to predict his moves and try to cut him off, he endlessly summons minions...and it's just before the second dungeon, so you have four hearts, maybe a fairy and a red potion. And then it ends in a joust over a narrow bridge. It's a really epic fight and it's a shame that of the TWO other horse battles in the game (seriously? ONLY THREE IN ALL?!) the only one to come close to this high is Ganondorf. Escorting Telma's rather forgettable.

TP got a lot of things right. The emphasis on the game was on the world, not the dungeons; exploring and fighting enemies in the world. WW and MM also got this right, Ocarina, unfortunately, did not.

#11 Fin

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 03:19 PM

No, scratch that; it's one of the most epic battles in GAMING history.


reckless boy...

Posted Image



edit: and for some reason i thought you said the most epic, not one of the most. never mind. :P

Edited by Shark Fin Soup, 16 May 2012 - 03:21 PM.


#12 ganonlord6000

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 04:25 PM

For me, TP really didn't have any what I would consider "wow" moments. Don't get me wrong, TP is still one of my favorite games, but it really doesn't have much that stands out. SS, on the other hand does, or at least moments when you're like "uh-oh. That's not good." Those moments would be when the Imprisoned started flying and when Ghirahim appears after killing Demise in the present, and I guess the revelation of Ganon's origin is if you didn't see it coming.

#13 D~N

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 03:17 AM

I'll tell you my favorite Zelda moment of all time, and its from Skyward Sword:


"So I'm going to ask you a favor, sleepyhead.
Ever since we were kids, I'd always be the one to wake you up when you slept in.
But this time, when all this is over, will you come to wake me up?"


I know it's not a "wow" moment gameplay wise or even really story-wise, I just thought that particular line of dialogue hit me with an emotional suckerpunch. I'm not saying I cried a little, but I cried a little.

Interestingly, all of my favorite Zelda moments are sad.

-End credits cutscene with Midna from TP.
-Grandmaaaaaa when she's sick from TWW
-Butler and son scene from MM.
-Seeing the zombified market for first time in OoT.
-Lost woods guy from ALttP.

:linkT_T:

#14 SOAP

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 01:39 PM

I'll tell you my favorite Zelda moment of all time, and its from Skyward Sword:


"So I'm going to ask you a favor, sleepyhead.
Ever since we were kids, I'd always be the one to wake you up when you slept in.
But this time, when all this is over, will you come to wake me up?"


I know it's not a "wow" moment gameplay wise or even really story-wise, I just thought that particular line of dialogue hit me with an emotional suckerpunch. I'm not saying I cried a little, but I cried a little.

Interestingly, all of my favorite Zelda moments are sad.

-End credits cutscene with Midna from TP.
-Grandmaaaaaa when she's sick from TWW
-Butler and son scene from MM.
-Seeing the zombified market for first time in OoT.
-Lost woods guy from ALttP.

:linkT_T:


Yeah that was a tearjerker moment. Only a few Zelda moments made me literally cry while playing the game like that. Others include when when Midna got forced into Light Realm by Zant, causing her to become severly injured and all she kept worrying about is Zelda's safety above her own, or how Pamela's father's was cursed into a form of a monster in MM but she kept protecting him anyways despite the danger to herself. Actually MM was full of moments that were pretty emotional. I guess I'm a sucker for selfless love and sacrifice. The kind that never asks for anything back but only seeks to make sure others are happy and safe. Zelda's sacrifice in SS shows they're still good at portraying that kind of love. Also an extra bit of fridge horror once you think about the possibility she may have been conscious the whole time she was in stasis. That's 1,000 years of being alone, cut off from Link, her father, and pretty much everyone else she loved.

Edited by SOAP, 17 May 2012 - 01:40 PM.


#15 TheAvengerLever

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 01:47 PM

I'll tell you my favorite Zelda moment of all time, and its from Skyward Sword:


"So I'm going to ask you a favor, sleepyhead.
Ever since we were kids, I'd always be the one to wake you up when you slept in.
But this time, when all this is over, will you come to wake me up?"


I know it's not a "wow" moment gameplay wise or even really story-wise, I just thought that particular line of dialogue hit me with an emotional suckerpunch. I'm not saying I cried a little, but I cried a little.

Interestingly, all of my favorite Zelda moments are sad.

-End credits cutscene with Midna from TP.
-Grandmaaaaaa when she's sick from TWW
-Butler and son scene from MM.
-Seeing the zombified market for first time in OoT.
-Lost woods guy from ALttP.

:linkT_T:


Reuniting Kafei and Anju only to realize that they, along with everyone else in the world, are about to fucking die.

That was MM's wow moment for me. It really made me want to complete the game and save everyone.

#16 SOAP

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 02:13 PM

We need another game like MM. D: Something that'll ake us actually care about saving the people in the game. I think I know what's been really killing the wow factor in recent games... the never seems to be any urgency or immediate danger. In TP even when Hyrule Castle gets taken over not only is Hyrule Castle Town still safe, none of the NPC's seem to notice anything is wrong despite a huge pyramid covering the castle, which sucks because TP had potential to up it's creepy factor with people turning into ghosts when Twilight covers everything but it didn't quite strike a cord like I expected it to. PH and ST, were both really so paced but they're kind meant to be casual anyways. TMC, the only thing that seemed urgent was lifting the curse off Zelda but there was no sense of urgency until Vaati takes her frozen body near the end and attempts to drain her of her Light Force. In SS, everyone was pretty much safe in the clouds. The only time I felt any urgency was during the imprisoned segments and when Ghirahim finally seized Zelda. Other times in the game, even in the final battle, I didn't feel like I was in a rush. Heck Demise is polite enough to wait in a pocket dimension for Link to have all the time in the world to prepare to fight him. I was not prepared to fight Ganon in OoT. I had to fight him then and there.

#17 Nevermind

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 02:02 AM

There was a scene I really loved in Skyward Sword:

Spoiler


#18 TheAvengerLever

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 10:25 AM

We need another game like MM. D: Something that'll ake us actually care about saving the people in the game. I think I know what's been really killing the wow factor in recent games... the never seems to be any urgency or immediate danger. In TP even when Hyrule Castle gets taken over not only is Hyrule Castle Town still safe, none of the NPC's seem to notice anything is wrong despite a huge pyramid covering the castle, which sucks because TP had potential to up it's creepy factor with people turning into ghosts when Twilight covers everything but it didn't quite strike a cord like I expected it to. PH and ST, were both really so paced but they're kind meant to be casual anyways. TMC, the only thing that seemed urgent was lifting the curse off Zelda but there was no sense of urgency until Vaati takes her frozen body near the end and attempts to drain her of her Light Force. In SS, everyone was pretty much safe in the clouds. The only time I felt any urgency was during the imprisoned segments and when Ghirahim finally seized Zelda. Other times in the game, even in the final battle, I didn't feel like I was in a rush. Heck Demise is polite enough to wait in a pocket dimension for Link to have all the time in the world to prepare to fight him. I was not prepared to fight Ganon in OoT. I had to fight him then and there.


This very much.

#19 Fin

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 11:09 AM

i'd definitely agree with the urgency factor. and the related problem of the games not having a decent feeling of danger. the games up to mm all did a decent job of getting across the danger of the world in various ways.

loz and aol were just damn hard, and in loz the people in hyrule were hiding out in little caves. lttp had the bulk of the action occur in the dark world, which was basically that game's equivalent of zelda1's hyrule. oot had a brilliant contrast between the atmospheres of the past and future hyrules, which was especially effective the first time we revisited old locations from link's childhood (though i do think oot's feeling of danger putters out about halfway through the adult part.) and mm's groundhog day premise allowed us to get to know the citizens of clock town, witness the gradual change of the town from day-to-day activity to a real sense of urgency over the looming threat, and the cycle culminates in an apocalypse you really wanted to avert.

tp basically gave everything a generically dark atmosphere without any substantive storytelling or gameplay techniques to make that darkness feel threatening.

i think the optimal solution (for me, anyway), would be a game with a substantial atmosphere of danger backed by a high difficulty.

Edited by Shark Fin Soup, 25 May 2012 - 11:12 AM.


#20 Sir Deimos

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 06:40 PM

You're never going to see a difficult 3D Zelda game. Ever. Nintendo needs to keep the family friendly image, and making very difficult games isn't going to be marketable to young children.

And even if it were, classic Zelda was hard because of two dimensional gameplay. They translated to 3Dthe very well, but that third dimension makes maneuvering easier. So you're less likely to get overwhelmed.

#21 Fin

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 07:11 PM

moderate difficulty would be nice, at least. or difficulty settings. i'm not entirely convinced that nintendo's approach of making the games basically impossible to lose is necessary to keeping the younger crowd.

edit: not sure how relevant the 2d/3d thing is. maneuverability is only one element that makes 3d easier. modern 2d zeldas are much easier than the originals too, and there are plenty of difficult 3d games out there.

Edited by Shark Fin Soup, 25 May 2012 - 07:22 PM.


#22 ganonlord6000

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 08:56 PM

@ Synile
Ageeed, but not entirely accurate. Both MM and SS are pretty difficult games, or at least SS is on hero mode, and so is the original OOT. Though I can't say the same with most of the newer 2d games. Those have gotten easier. I'm guessing the reason the older ones were harder is because the technology was more primitive and limited than it is now.

The best thing for Nintendo to do with the difficulty in future Zeldas, heck. ALL of their future games, is include a difficulty system similar to Kid Icarus Uprising.

@ Synile
Ageeed, but not entirely accurate. Both MM and SS are pretty difficult games, or at least SS is on hero mode, and so is the original OOT. Though I can't say the same with most of the newer 2d games. Those have gotten easier. I'm guessing the reason the older ones were harder is because the technology was more primitive and limited than it is now.

The best thing for Nintendo to do with the difficulty in future Zeldas, heck. ALL of their future games, is include a difficulty system similar to Kid Icarus Uprising.

#23 Sir Deimos

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 09:22 PM

Oooh. Yeah. I forgot SS's Hero Mode.

As for OOT being difficult... I don't see it. D: Same with MM. I've never game overed in any 3D Zelda. The classic 2D games are a completely different story.

#24 Fin

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 09:30 PM

there are bits of mm i find moderately tough (gyorg used to be my nemesis), but yeah, i wouldn't call it a hard game. though it's probably the toughest out of the first four 3d zeldas. i really need to try ss so i can check out hero mode. does it require unlocking or can you jump right in?

#25 Sir Deimos

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 09:31 PM

Unfortunately you need to beat the main quest before you can play.

#26 Fin

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 09:33 PM

rats. not surprised, but god damn it nintendo, do you not realise what difficulty settings are for?

#27 ganonlord6000

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 09:42 PM

Oooh. Yeah. I forgot SS's Hero Mode.

As for OOT being difficult... I don't see it. D: Same with MM. I've never game overed in any 3D Zelda. The classic 2D games are a completely different story.


The original N64 OOT is difficult if you are not an experienced gamer. When I first played it, it was a hard game for me and so was MM. The classic 2d games are definitely a different story, especially the oracles. I think part of the problem is not that the games are getting much easier, which I won't deny, but that we're getting better at playing these games.

rats. not surprised, but god damn it nintendo, do you not realise what difficulty settings are for?


Agreed, but I think someone managed to make a save file editor recently which allows you to jump right into hero mode. And I agree. Why do you think I suggested using the difficulty system from Kid Icarus Uprising? The higher difficulty settings there are harder than most games I've played.

#28 Sir Deimos

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 10:05 PM

The difficulty options in Kid Icarus Uprising are just simply genius. I think more games in general could stand to learn a thing or two from the ideas contained therein.

#29 JRPomazon

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 10:11 PM

There was a scene I really loved in Skyward Sword:

Spoiler


Spoiler


But as I think about wow moments, have we discussed LA and the truth behind the Wind Fish? Because that takes the cake in my opinion.

#30 Showsni

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 01:57 PM

LA is still pretty amazing. I wonder how many people have decided, once they get past the reveals, to just stop playing there? I mean, you can go on and wake the Wind Fish up. Then the fish flies off all happy, and Koholint is gone. Or, you can just turn your game off. Never wake the fish. Leave Link living happily with Marin on Kohloint forever. It's a pretty amazing game where stopping playing it can in some senses result in a happier ending than completing it.