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What do you want from Zelda?


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#1 SOAP

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 01:40 AM

Inspired by the Skyward Sword Impressions thread, I want to know what you guys would actually like to see in future Zelda titles.

Here's my list:
  • Less linear plot (even if the ultimate ending stays the same)
  • More open world enviroments
  • Alternate paths to same dungeons/boss room/town/ect
  • Alternate ways to beat a dungeon/boss
  • Some paths involving more puzzles while others involving more action (everyone's happy!)
  • Being able to customize Link's look a little (even if just alternate tunic colors and/or slight variations of the "Classic" tunic look).
  • Deeply immersive sidequests like MM had (SS was close but no cigar)
  • Being able to make friendships with NPC's via Sim/Fable-like interactions or by doing enough sidequests for them or just by talking to them [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] (Kinda like how you can make Peatrice in SS fall in love with you just by talking to her a lot)
  • If Link must have a sidekick the entire game, why not a fellow human/Hylian? Maybe someone who can help Link with puzzle sequences like Kafei in MM or Medli/Makar in TWW. Or a demolitions guy like Groose or just someone who's big and strong and brings some added muscle to combat. I guess the reason they don't this is that it's easier to hide a fairy or a spirit in Link's hat or sword but a human has to follow the player everywhere they go.
  • Keep making nearly very item/potion customizable like they were in SS.
  • Voice acting, and not the Hylian gibberish sort. I know this will never happen but either they need voice acting at least for the NPC's or they need to cut down on the dialogue altogether.

I may add more later. Basically though I want more choices, more customizability, and less stopping the action to bring up text box after text box.

Edited by SOAP, 24 January 2012 - 01:42 AM.


#2 joeymartin64

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 02:27 AM

Biggest thing for me is voice acting. I even want Link to speak. We've been characterizing him since OoT (really, since the first game, but VA wasn't an option then, so eh), meaning that the player-analogue thing is BS at this point. Talk to me.

I want the next game to actually break with series tradition, unlike SS, which only sort of did. I mean I want the next Zelda game to not be a collect-the-pieces plot for once. I want motivation that goes beyond finding the next batch of things. I wouldn't mind seeing the gameplay standards bucked as well. To name one obvious example, we could do away with Pieces of Heart and Containers and use an EXP system or something. I also want magic to have a more prominent role in gameplay. It could pull double duty as not only an attack option, but also as a puzzle-solving aid. Power that machine with a lightning spell. Freeze that water to cross it. Light a torch. Whatever.

In brainstorming this, I realize a good bit of it boils down to "Use stuff from Zelda II," and I guess that's pretty appropriate. I wouldn't mind seeing the next one be pretty significantly different. This may sound radical, but I don't think it'd be a terrible idea for a Zelda game to not be made in-house. Maybe with someone else in the driver's seat, we might get some refreshingly different gameplay, and possibly even a story beyond "HERO must save DAMSEL/WORLD from BAD GUY" for once. The Zeldaverse is full of potential for other story ideas; we've all been talking about that for years, but it's become clear to me that we're never, ever going to get it if things continue the way they're going. Even if it did boil down to that eventually, some better writing could make that more potent, if only because the characters would seem more real. SS was a step in the right direction in that regard, but only a step.

Now, the obvious reaction to this is "So you want a Zelda game that isn't a Zelda game?" or some such snarky shit like that. If you want to break it down that way, yeah, I guess you could make that case, but I disagree. I love this franchise, I love its mythos (for the most part) and I love its world. I want to see more done, such as the things I've suggested here, within it.

Edited by joeymartin64, 24 January 2012 - 02:27 AM.


#3 D~N

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 10:27 AM

Besides voice acting, I would love to see them take this new Metroid-esque approach to new heights and let us re-explore new areas even more so. I really liked the layout of skyward sword, so more of this re-exploration thing would be lovely.

But most importantly, I want that item that was like a staff or a cane that let you make blocks out of thin air. I want that in 3D. So bad. It would make for amazing puzzles. Why haven't we gotten it yet?! Twilight Princess almost had one, but not really, because it wasn't used outside the dungeon.

Edited by D~N, 24 January 2012 - 10:27 AM.


#4 FŽanen

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 12:31 PM

I'm very conservative with classic game franchises, so drastic changes don't much appeal to me - and voice acting is an active turn-off to me, since I read faster than most people talk and like to have my own idea of how characters sound. Going by my philosophy on games, then, most of these things are either minor tweaks or things from old games:

1. Eight dungeon minimum. In fact, I'd like to see ten Heart Container yielding dungeons like in A Link to the Past.

2. Probably the only huge change, I'd like Zelda to be more actively involved. I'm sick of "save the damsel" on ideological grounds. In fact, some side sequences where you can play as Zelda/Sheik (using her rapier/bow/magic/whatever) would suit me very well.

3. Magic. I don't care if you learn spells, get items, or whatever. Fantasy games should have magic.

4. Something like the magical rings from the Oracle game that had all sorts of special effects. The medallions were a good start, we just need ones that have more varied effects like the Spin Ring and Snowshoe Ring.

5. I'd like to see another two world set-up like in A Link to the Past. Not in every Zelda game, but at least once in a while.

6. A guide who only speaks when I call or during cutscenes. I'm playing Majora's Mask right now, and Tatl's actually fairly good about this. Having a guide doesn't bother me (indeed, I was very grateful for Navi when I was 11), but it should be less intrusive.

So, yeah. Simple stuff.

#5 Wolf O'Donnell

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 03:21 PM

Nothing, she's not a real person.

#6 Crimson Lego

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 04:36 PM

Nothing, she's not a real person.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelda_Fitzgerald

Zelda's glamorous image also inspired the name of video game creator Shigeru Miyamoto's character Princess Zelda in his The Legend of Zelda video game series. Miyamoto explained, "Zelda was the name of the wife of the famous novelist F. Scott Fitzgerald. She was a famous and beautiful woman from all accounts, and I liked the sound of her name. So I took the liberty of using her name for the very first Zelda title."[85]




:P

#7 SOAP

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 01:26 AM

Nothing, she's not a real person.


How dare you insult Robin William's hottie daughter?

#8 Moriatti

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 09:36 AM

Solid gameplay with a continuous focus on non-voiced, non-text detail and story.

IE: Ikana Canyon or the Sages' death. Stuff that isn't said, but is understood.

EDIT: Which is to say, I wouldn't care if the Zelda series never got voice acting, since I don't think spoken word is Zelda's strength anyways.

Edited by Moriatti, 25 January 2012 - 09:38 AM.


#9 CID Farwin

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 11:10 AM

-Less Puzzles.
-Less "water temple" feeling of being overcomplicated for no reason.
-Side quests that actually give me something useful (SS was a major step in this direction.)
-Less carrot-on-a-stick moments.
-More lands outside Hyrule.
-Less hand-holding.
-More explanation for changes beyond "it sounded cool"
-Less interruptions of gameplay (i.e. have text/cutscenes/etc. in real time. Real time potions was amazing.)
-More customization, even if it's something as simple as the different armor/weapons from earlier games.
-All around, just let me get out there and have fun. Let me play the game my way.
-better AI. If I can slaughter an entire army Final Fantasy-style (1-4 at a time), there's no reason for a stealth mission. (again, SS did a bit better with the stealth missions)
-I want magic back

#10 Moriatti

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 12:47 PM

-Less interruptions of gameplay (i.e. have text/cutscenes/etc. in real time. Real time potions was amazing.)

Every game. This.

#11 Wolf O'Donnell

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 02:22 PM

Okay, let me do this seriously now.

Although, you could just go back and try to find my other thread.

- More uses for money. Quite frankly, if a Zelda game was real life, I would end up with more money than I could shake a stick at.
- Puzzles that actually make sense, not contrived things appended to the game at the last minute. A bit like... hm, well, I guess Portal, where you've got to use your noggin' to figure out how to get from point A to point B without getting a negative score and INSTANT DEATH.
- Less hand-holding or failing that, the ability to turn it off.
- Less cutscenes and more story worked into the gameplay.
- Bosses, as Yahtzee of Zero Punctuation fame says, should be like exams that test you on skills you used prior to facing the boss.

Have I missed anything out?

#12 joeymartin64

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 06:59 PM

Guys, I think we're going to have to work on the difference between "less" and "fewer."

A few more:

-A more cohesive game world. This was SS's biggest weakness for me. I never felt like the world below the clouds was really a whole. Even in other games, it's like things are split between town, open area, dungeon, and that's it. Give me some NPCs in Hyrule Field. Show me a dungeon that isn't necessarily in a building, but just a deep forest or cave. Have these areas link together in interesting, Metroidvania-esque ways.

-I wouldn't actually mind seeing dungeons done away with entirely, in favor of just having hazardous areas between point A and B, where a boss may or may not be at the end of it. Again, Metroidvania does something similar (though I'm really more thinking about FFXII).

-In short, less rigid structure. Let the game's narrative and gameplay flow more. SS took a step in this direction by having some puzzle-solving outside dungeons, but it lost its world cohesion by erecting giant fucking brick walls around its questing areas, and it rigidly adhered to a slightly tweaked formula, which really isn't all that different once all is said and done.

Edited by joeymartin64, 26 January 2012 - 03:33 PM.


#13 SteveT

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 09:42 PM

Really, all I want is less handholding and more freedom. Let me find the dungeons on my own terms (better yet let me find them accidentally). Trust me to understand the clues hidden in dialog. Let me take the game at my own pace and stumble into sidequests.

For storyline, I'd like a little more subtlety. The thing that got so many of us into timeline theorizing was the sense that some part of the story must be missing, but as the stories get more and more complex and isolated, that feeling has been lost (at least for me). I want a world where there's more going on than the game will ever tell. The series is overdue for voice-acting, which will help keep the player in the game when plot is happening.

#14 Moriatti

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 10:29 PM

Just make it more like Majora's Mask. That's what I want.

#15 Masamune

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 12:38 AM

- Less handholding. I like having sidekicks for dialog, but it should be easily skippable.
- Voice acting. Games with voice acting done well let you quickly breeze through it or skip cutscenes altogether. More than that, you can have dialog going on while in the action. This would be beneficial for your partner to be able to give you information (when asked for it) without impeding the game.
- No more vehicles. The boat was neat, but it got old after that. Don't try to make Hyrule look bigger by having us speed past all the boring parts.
- Just give us a quick and easy way to teleport between locations. This should be a quick and painless process. Don't make me fly up to the hub world and then descend again to pick a place to wrap to.
- I like the overworld design in Skyward Sword. Each section felt like one, open air dungeon. It was a little Mario-esque, but that's not a bad comparison by any means. But these areas should interconnect. The more shortcuts that can be discovered over time, the better. Finding hidden areas between the larger sections could make for neat sidequest areas.
- More involved NPCs. Zelda is actually getting better about this, but this is something you really can't stop improving on.
- More weapons, less puzzle-solving items. I want something I can go to town with and cause trouble (like a giant hammer!) and not something that's going to be a burden to haul out (like the spinner...)
- Yeah, just less puzzles in general. A few are fine, but nothing with blocks! NEVER BLOCKS. I want to fight my way through a place. That's why I have a sword, isn't it?
- I do like having dungeons more integrated into the world of Hyrule. Not just this big and predictable looking building. The best feeling in Skyward Sword was when I realized, halfway through the ship level, I was actually in a dungeon and not just exploring this neat looking ship. That was pretty cool.
- You know what? Ganondorf. I'm gonna say it. For me, LoZ is about Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf. The three original characters from the very first game. We've only had three excursions with him where he even has a character and isn't just some angry blue pig. There's more to be had there. We don't have to keep avoiding him in order to use other, second rate bad guys. He's a great villain and has a lot of untapped potential. Let's see it put to use. And don't just put him in the background either. I want to see more of him than just in the last hour of the game.

#16 SOAP

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 04:02 AM

- Voice acting. Games with voice acting done well let you quickly breeze through it or skip cutscenes altogether. More than that, you can have dialog going on while in the action. This would be beneficial for your partner to be able to give you information (when asked for it) without impeding the game.


Yes, this. Couldn't agree more. I don't want voice acting just because it's modern and cool. I want it because text boxes force the game to stop in order to read what's being said. Even if you can read faster than a voice actor can talk (I do too), a text still interrupts the action whereas auditory dialogue is more passive and you can listen to (or ignore) what's being said while you continue to play the game without being being stopped. I like how in games like Fable a lot of the cutscenes, you can still move around and play the game normal while the NPC's continued to talk to you. I don't mind no voice acting in 2D games though, partly because might be a little strange, but mostly 2D Zlda games aren't heavy on the dialogue as the 3D games are.

So either add voice acting or make the characters talk less and more to the point. None of this goin on and on. You know? Man it raelly bugs me when someone just repeats what they say over and over. It's like "Okay, I get the point already." But they just keep going. And you knwo what else? I'll shut up now. ;d

#17 Raien

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 09:53 AM

Rather than repeat what I posted in the Skyward Sword Impressions topic (i.e. a bigger and better sequel to ALttP with local multiplayer), I would like to take this opportunity to post a Malstrom article that responds to Aonuma's own detailed definition of Zelda, taken from various interviews with the man including a lengthy presentation at the GDC 2004 conference. If you don't like the scripted nature of the games, this is well worth reading:

http://seanmalstrom....ed-by-nintendo/

Edited by Raien, 26 January 2012 - 09:55 AM.


#18 Twinrova

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 10:59 AM


- Voice acting. Games with voice acting done well let you quickly breeze through it or skip cutscenes altogether. More than that, you can have dialog going on while in the action. This would be beneficial for your partner to be able to give you information (when asked for it) without impeding the game.


Yes, this. Couldn't agree more. I don't want voice acting just because it's modern and cool. I want it because text boxes force the game to stop in order to read what's being said. Even if you can read faster than a voice actor can talk (I do too), a text still interrupts the action whereas auditory dialogue is more passive and you can listen to (or ignore) what's being said while you continue to play the game without being being stopped. I like how in games like Fable a lot of the cutscenes, you can still move around and play the game normal while the NPC's continued to talk to you. I don't mind no voice acting in 2D games though, partly because might be a little strange, but mostly 2D Zlda games aren't heavy on the dialogue as the 3D games are.

So either add voice acting or make the characters talk less and more to the point. None of this goin on and on. You know? Man it raelly bugs me when someone just repeats what they say over and over. It's like "Okay, I get the point already." But they just keep going. And you knwo what else? I'll shut up now. ;d



I'm kinda torn on the voice acting thing. I want it for all the reasons above, but...only if they're done well. It bothers me SO MUCH when a game (or really, anything) has voice acting that sucks monkey shit. Or the voices don't fit the characters. It's extremely distracting. x_x

But if they did voice acting I'd still like the option to turn the text boxes on or off. Sometimes I still wanna play games when I can't have the volume up that loud (like if somebody's sleeping or whatever)...so if I can't hear what people are saying well then I'll wanna read it. It'd just...be nice if you could still move around and do stuff while there's text on the screen, like you could when you used a potion in SS. And never ever bring Fi back ever.



Also? I'm sure no one cares about this but me, but: TWINROVA. I want to fight her again. xD Also moar Gerudos plz.

#19 TheAvengerLever

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 12:43 PM

Nothing Malstrom writes is good.

#20 Fin

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 04:32 PM

Nothing Malstrom writes is good.


why do you say that?

#21 SOAP

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 03:44 AM

Well after reading that article, it makes sense why it rubs me the wrong way when fans have contempt for modern Zelda. He referenced Battlestar Galactica. I was part of the new fans that came in because of the reimagined series and discovered the older series after the fact. I liked both for what they were but interacting with other fans online was like walking around landmines. There was constant fighting between the old fans hating how the new series completely messed up the mythology of the old show and was just sex-filled soap opera with robots and space battles slapped on it. The new fans mocked the old show for being campy, dated, and corny even for it's time. You really couldn't be a fan who loved both without being seeing as pariah. Quite frankly I thought both sides had major sticks up the asses and totally missed out on what each version of Battlestar had to offer. Compared to my experience as Battlestar Galactica fan, the Zelda community is pretty peaceful by comparison.

#22 Egann

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 01:34 PM

Well, I haven't gotten a new Zelda game since TP, so what I say may be dated.

1. Characters. Some of the side-characters actually show personality, but at best it's one-dimensional, and the main cast is laughable. Personally, I say throw the "Link never talks" rule to the wind for a spinoff experiment at least.

2. Dungeons. I've noticed that I either get stuck in dungeons...or CAN DO THEM BLINDFOLDED ON THE FIRST TIME. I've developed a sense for how Zelda dungeons work to the point the dungeons themselves are extraneous. There's no real point in a dungeon so hard I have to FAQ it or so easy I don't have to think about it. If you can't moderate the difficulty to a sane middle-of-the-road level, DROP them. At least drop them as a main part of the game and add them back in as side-quests. Doing challenging things for power-ups makes perfect sense.

On that note, the best way to fix dungeons is to give them multiple paths using different items, or even not requiring items at all if you solve genuinely hard puzzles. Nothing breaks up the monotony of a dungeon quite like running across a puzzle you don't have the equipment to solve. How would Zelda's gameplay change if you went into a dungeon, selected three items, and then had to complete the dungeon with ONLY those three items?

3. More activity on the world. Horse battles in TP were particularly impressive; some of the most unique gameplay I'd seen at the time...and I was immensely disappointed there were only THREE in the whole game, and only the first really struck me as using it to its full potential. Collecting light bugs? Tedious, but more interesting than a dungeon.

4. Less item-centric gameplay. See #2.

5. A sense of TIME in the game pushing the player to choose some quests over others. Majora's Mask spoiled us on this one.

6. An AI (human) partner in combat. Really, I've been toying with ideas for this one for a while, and I think its for the best; Midna, Tatl, and Navi all felt extraneous because they didn't participate in combat, and only very rarely in meaningful events. King of Red Lions is the best side-kick we've had, and he was limited by BEING A BOAT. It boils down to this, though; Link's prior partners felt like they sort of outranked Link, or certainly had a better sense of what was going on (exception: Tatl) and so you were compelled to do as they said. A human partner would inevitably be Link's peer, so the player really could take what the AI said as a suggestion, and not an absolute.

What's more, think of the implications this has for gameplay. Remember the three item limit for a dungeon I suggested earlier? What if you chose the items you equipped your partner with, too? Not only would this have implications on how you solve puzzles, it would fundamentally change how you fight battles. Keep the bow for yourself and give him a slingshot? Your partner will be useless in combat. Give him all the good items? You'll have to struggle yourself. Give him an up-close role and yourself a far away one? What happens if the situation is forcibly reversed? What happens if one of you runs out of bottled fairies or red potions? Give him magic items so he's practically a wizard? All of these have implications in puzzles AND fights, because Zelda is one of the few games to use the same items for both. It's a great opportunity to break down the classic RPG class system and Do It Yourself in an odd way to both be able to fight AND solve puzzles.

Fundamentally, it's all Zelda gameplay I'm talking about here, but it's been reapplied in a radically different way. Do I think Nintendo will do this? No, almost certainly not. But it is interesting to think about, anyway.

Edited by Egann, 27 January 2012 - 01:46 PM.


#23 D~N

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 02:11 PM

Does anyone remember how the first Zelda worked. Here was the theory: the overworld was a giant puzzle. You had no idea where to go or what to do, and only had the words of the instruction manual and the occasional old man to go by. The overworld is where your mind was tested.
Then you enter a dungeon. In Zelda1, these were crawling with bad guys. But if anyone were to get stuck in a dungeon, it wasn't because they couldn't solve a puzzle; hell, the most difficult puzzle involved pushing blocks or giving a hungry moblin some meat. No, if you were stuck in a dungeon, it was because you were getting your ass kicked by all of the bad guys. And bad guys filled rooms too, it wasn't just like 1 darknut all alone, or a single pols voice and a gibdo. There were swarms of enemies! And if you left the room for too long? They respawned. The bad guys in this game kicked your butt, and that was especially true in dungeons.

So we see that the overworld was an expansive puzzle-world, and the dungeons were like combat arenas featuring very rare and small puzzles. This is what I want again. But two things would be necessary for this to occur.

1. Voice acting, or smoother information. Fi, Navi, and the rest are cool characters but they really break the tempo. Zelda1 would suck with Fi, because your hearts are supposed to be low in dungeons - if you're not getting your butt kicked, you're doing something wrong - and you all know too well that she loves to remind you about your hearts. Now imagine Navi telling you to "watch out!" every time you enter a room. Voice acting would make this a little less painful. At the very least, give us an option to silence their "helpful hints."
2. Smooth combat. Zelda1 works with so many bad guys because you can just stab and run. You dont need a cutscene every time you enter a room, you dont need Z-targeting. You just stab-n-go. Maybe a refined Skyward Sword system would work, because the bad guys were appropriately defensive. Bad guys that have weak spots are AMAZING game design. See: Zelda1's DarkNuts. You can only stab them in the back or side because they have a shield in the front. SS did this really well. Tweak this system and make it a bit smoother and I think you'd be golden.

With these two things, you can really achieve the kind of gameplay Zelda1 perfected on the first try. Nowadays, Dungeons = Puzzles and Overworld = empty, instead of dungeons boasting with baddies, and an overworld shrouded in mystery. Revert back to these dungeons and overworld styles and Zelda will be, theoretically, a smoother and more true-to-it's-roots game.

That's not to say I dont want new things. I'm just saying they've strayed from the formula in the wrong way. Inovations are good, but the change in dungeon/overworld design is not.

#24 TheAvengerLever

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 03:18 PM

I agree with the above.


Even in Link to the Past, it found a really healthy balance between puzzles and ass kicking monsters in dungeons. Frankly, the reason I don't like newer Zelda games is because the dungeons, at least for me, have become overly complicated. If every room is another puzzle, I start to grow tired of it very easily. Whereas in the older games, it was as much about survival as puzzle solving. It kept things interesting. I actually think that the Elder Scrolls games do dungeons correctly. There are a few puzzles here and there, but for the most part you're battling zombies, skeletal warriors, rats, bats, and you're trying your darndest to make it out alive.

As much as I love Indiana Jones, I think Zelda could do with less puzzle solving elements.

#25 SOAP

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 05:24 AM

@Egann. Make dungeons optional sidequests? That sounds very Fable-ish. i like that. Also love your point 6. Wait, I think I mention that! Oh well, you explained it better. :P

@D~N. I would like the idea of bringing puzzles into the over-world and making the dungeons more battle heavy. SS seems like they tried to go into that direction but the dungeons were still mostly puzzles. So more of a baby step than a giant leap. I think a bigger step into that direction is to make the order of dungeons more non-linear, which would require a more non-linear overworld. That would bring back the feeling of a giant puzzle world you described.

@Button. It would fit the theme of the Triforce if they had a balance of gameplay that reflected it's attributes. Power=Combat, Wisdom=Puzzles. I don't know what Courage would be but since combat tests your reflexes and puzzles test your noggin, I guess something that applies to Courage would test your will. Atmosphere I guess. I'm going to say mazes, or overworld/dungeons that you can actually get lost in (not the same as getting stuck, just more alternative paths and such).

#26 Wolf O'Donnell

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 11:30 AM

You know, Egorapter's just released a new Sequelitis video, where he laments that Super Castlevania IV's gameplay wasn't really all that. The game introduced better whip mechanics, which was good, except that it made all the items that it copied from the first game completely redundant. The holy axe, cross etc. were all unnecessary, so the game developers should have incorporated more puzzles or mechanics that relied on the more useful whip. The gist of what he was saying was that new games shouldn't be weighed down by old gimmicks because of tradition, you should use the old game as a base.

Nintendo should pay attention, especially as it seems to be making a loss as of late.

#27 Raien

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Posted 28 January 2012 - 01:28 PM

You know, Egorapter's just released a new Sequelitis video, where he laments that Super Castlevania IV's gameplay wasn't really all that. The game introduced better whip mechanics, which was good, except that it made all the items that it copied from the first game completely redundant. The holy axe, cross etc. were all unnecessary, so the game developers should have incorporated more puzzles or mechanics that relied on the more useful whip. The gist of what he was saying was that new games shouldn't be weighed down by old gimmicks because of tradition, you should use the old game as a base.


The fundamental complaint is a good one; the general game design needed to account for the new power of the whip. Make enemies that are harder to hit with the whip, create new items to compensate for the whip's weaknesses. But the whip in SC4 was an important addition because it gave the players more power. It's equivalent to Link swinging his sword in an arc in ALttP. It made the core gameplay better.

PS: I vomited a little in my mouth when I saw egoraptor's sketches of "whip puzzles". Castlevania needs puzzles like a chainsaw to the face.

#28 TheAvengerLever

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 01:05 PM

I've been watching play throughs of Quest 64 (because no matter how much you may not like that game, I do) and one of the things I was really into about the game when I was a kid (yes nostalgia goggles) was the overworld. It was large and yet it was interesting. I think it had also to do with the random enemy encounters. Basically what I want out of a 3d Zelda is basically 2d Zelda, and suffice to say I don't think that's a bad attitude to have about these games. Quest 64 seems to be what Zelda should have been in 3d except you'd substitute the horrid RPG elements out with the hack 'n' slash elements of the Zelda series.. Instead, the jump to 3d eliminated the vast over world filled to the brim with enemies, and as a consequence it was never boring whilst you are exploring. It also eliminated the overworld itself. I think Skyward Sword was a step in the right direction in terms of overworld. It was fun to explore, pretty to look at, and it wasn't ever boring. Now, if the next game gave us more places to explore, that would be good.

Can you imagine how awesome it would be if AOL's overworld was remade into 3D? (And no, I'm not talking about that one flash game on the internet).

I know this is just a boring reiteration of my earlier post where I said something nearly identical, but I think a good 3D Zelda should be more like a combination of the very first two titles.

Additionally, the reason Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask were the last good-inside-and-out Zelda games to me were the side quests. I can't play a Zelda game without side quests. I'm a very angry gamer and some times I just don't want to play the main story. Unfortunately, Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword either didn't have side quests at all, or when they did they just weren't interesting. I love to fulfill side quests to temporarily distract myself from frustrations in dealing with the main story portions of the game.

I'm ashamed to admit, but I really do think the Elder Scrolls games (yes, even Daggerfall) have been doing a better job of being Zelda games than Zelda games are. I hate traversing dungeons now because they are filled to the brim with puzzles and by the end of them my brain is fried. Not to say that the puzzles are difficult. A lot of the time they are easy to figure out but complicated to complete, and more and more I just find myself saying, "Let's get on with it."

Miyamoto's inspiration for playing this game was exploration, and that's what drew me to the games as well, but there's just way less of that in newer Zeldas with more emphasis on puzzles, and while puzzles are occasionally nice, whoever keeps building these puzzle shrines is that same bastard who is the architect for Umbrella Corporation's top researchers.

If Zelda were a mathematical formula it would look like this:

Exploration + monster slaying action + occasional puzzle=good Zelda game.

#29 SOAP

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 06:47 AM

I loved Quest 64 too but I really hated the lack of camera control you had in OoT and Super mario. There were time I awnted to get a good look at an area but couldn't. I also hated the random enemy accounters. That's something that really turned me off from RPG's early on. The overworld did seem huge (not because of the random enemy accouters) despite being pretty much linear. However if I recall there were occasional alternate paths (usually caves that served as shortcuts) and secret areas only found when you strayed away from the beaten path. That's what made the overworld huge for me but the random accouters often discouraged that in that sometimes I was low on health and just wanted to get to the nearest town as quick as possible. There were no puzzles at all either (don't know if RPG's even HAVE puzzles) so it does show you could have something like Zelda without any puzzles. Still I would prefer puzzles be kept, even if it's at a minimum. Puzzles provide a breather from fighting monster after monster. Monsters provide a breather from solving puzzle after puzzle. They should balance each other.

#30 TheAvengerLever

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 12:50 PM

I think Quest 64 was a good game. It would have been better if it's RPG elements were more refined. I hate random encounter battles. That's an element of RPGs that I've always hated, and it's also why I don't do the Pokeyman anymore.

I also want it to be on the Virtual Console, but that's a dreamer's dream. Really though, strip Quest 64 of it's RPG elements and put in more action adventure elements and it would've been a fantastic game.