29 replies to this topic

[FDL]

What with her connection to the bloodline that holds onto the Ocarina of Time and the fact that most of her plans and powers seem to have been tied back into time, I think Hylia is a very likely Goddess of Time candidate now. I don't think I have to elaborate too much because those who have played the game know what I mean. Hylia may be my number 1 choice for Goddess of Time now.

[MikePetersSucks]

And she IS associated with the color blue...

The problem is the only mention of the Goddess of Time is when Zelda is incarnated as a human. So, what's going on, there?

It's a nice idea, honestly. But I don't find it as elegant as Nayru; especially since Hylia seemed to me like she embodied "Hope" more than anything (to the point that Zelda was effectively the Oracle of Hope in the linked game).

Though one could make the argument that given what her duties are, Hylia has a watered down version of everything the Golden Goddesses represented.

[FDL]

Well I figured with the "speaking from the edge of time" and enacting plans even when Zelda was running around that the Goddess uses her time powers to do godly shit even when incarnated as a human. Though technically it's also possible Zelda doesn't reincarnate like Link and sort of Ganon/Demise do. I mean, importance is placed on the spirit of the hero, but the bloodline of the goddess.

[MikePetersSucks]

"Speaking from the edge of time" is probably because they're prerecorded messages for you and they were made at like, the beginning of the birth of the concept of Time. That has nothing to do with godly time powers.

The bloodline of the goddess is because destiny decided to make Zelda related to every other Zelda regardless of her spiritual status; Link, however, has no such important bloodline, as indicated by the Hero of Winds. I think we can trust that Zelda reincarnates just as Link does, what with her incredible magical powers in nearly every lifetime, which she retains even when not in her body.

[FDL]

True, I overlooked the fact that those messages from the Goddess are stored in Fi already and not the Goddess speaking to Link through Fi. Then I guess it's possible you're right that Hylia stuck around reincarnating as important Zeldas instead of regaining her godly form.

[MikePetersSucks]

It is possible, however, that she resumes her identity as Hylia inbetween games, and plans things out accordingly. "Shit, Demise's hatred is going to get a piece of the Triforce, but at the time the Hero will be too young to stop him. Better find a way to age him up and then prepare some....Sages? yea, that's an idea. Give some divine power directly to some mortals and give them instructions on what to do...Put some temples and stuff around..."

[SOAP]

Considering her temple becomes the Temple of Time, yeah I think she is the Goddess of Time. Which kinda sheds some new light on Zelda's line in MM about the Goddess of Time watching over Link on his journey. Was Zelda praying to herself?

@MPS. It seems it's Fujibayashi's trademark to have Link and Zelda be close together. Odd then that in all the games he's worked also seem to be also games that at least attempt to be early in the timeline.

[MikePetersSucks]

Considering her temple becomes the Temple of Time

I wouldn't say that's an absolute fact. Aside from a Temple of Time ALREADY EXISTING, the Sealed Temple is in the wrong location and the Master Sword has been moved around before without a Link pulling it out. Even if her temple was repurposed into the Temple of Time, it says nothing about her personal divine properties since she's not really using it anymore.

[Masamune]

And suddenly the Triforce of Time theories (no, the Quadforce ones, not the cool one) re-emerge.

The cosmology of gods and deities in Zelda is so odd. The original three goddesses are never shown being directly involved in the world EXCEPT in the prelude to The Wind Waker. For the most part they seem like a completely neutral force. (Especially if it's true that they apparently give Ganon a piece of the Triforce before TP). It's interesting that Hylia is the closest thing to an actual patron god that the Hyruleans actually follow, even though she seems to be on equal footing (or less) with the demon force, Demise. These second-tier gods/demons are a potentially interesting bunch.

[Person]

Ganon getting a piece of the Triforce might have been a product of the curse and not the will of the gods. The Sages were confused, but they didn't know about Demise.

[MikePetersSucks]

Or he had the Triforce because Link inadvertantly divided it with his time shenanigans with OOT.

As for the issue of the Gods, it seems to me that Hylia probably does everything on the Golden Trio's behalf, interpreting what's best for Hyrule when not incarnated as Zelda, or something. Perhaps it was her who flooded Hyrule, and the Goddesses are just straight up GONE.

[joeymartin64]

I was actually starting to think that the Triforce itself may not be involved at all in TP. SS Link's hand marking glows with each respective piece as he gains each Goddess' flame (or "old gods" now, if you like) long before he actually obtains any part of the Triforce itself. Perhaps the markings in TP don't indicate actual possession of the Triforce components, but rather the capacity for the three virtues.

Honestly, I don't really like that or believe it. It's just a thought that occurred to me.

EDIT: Also, like MPS said, that Hylia may be the one responsible for the flood, rather than the Golden Trio (I like that name). SS really did a number on what we knew of Hyrule's divinity, it seems.

Edited by joeymartin64, 06 December 2011 - 04:18 AM.

[FDL]

Really not in the mood for a big debate on this, but I don't think that really works for TP at all. For one thing, only the Triforce of Courage is lit up on Link's hand in TP even though it's implied by both SS and TP more heavily than any previous game that Link has "the spirit of the hero" reincarnating over the games, which the Link of Skyward Sword has built into being worthy of all three crests long before the events of TP. And more overtly against that, the crests in TP actually give power to the bearers, they're not just symbols of worthiness. Finally, only by accomplishing the tests set out for him was Link able to get that crest. He wasn't just thrown it by the gods, and if Ganondorf was and then died, what was even the point of giving Ganon the crest? If it's not fate(because he dies) and it's not because he proved himself, then it doesn't have any reason for appearing on his hand. Again, not looking for a huge debate from the crowd who does everything to deny the Triforce being in Twilight Princess or anything, just saying I think it doesn't really fit. Besides that, Skyward Sword isn't the first to reference this kind of crest. AoL and arguably the Oracle games both had this kind of crest as well.

Edited by FDL, 06 December 2011 - 10:49 AM.

[SOAP]

Considering her temple becomes the Temple of Time

I wouldn't say that's an absolute fact. Aside from a Temple of Time ALREADY EXISTING, the Sealed Temple is in the wrong location and the Master Sword has been moved around before without a Link pulling it out. Even if her temple was repurposed into the Temple of Time, it says nothing about her personal divine properties since she's not really using it anymore.

Aren't both Temples associated with her anyways? I mean there's a friggin huge Hylian crest symbol adorning the building and this is before Hyrule itself gets it's namesake so it's probably a reference to Hylia herself just like all the other times it appears in SS. I still say it's a safe bet considering how strongly time travel is emphasized in regards to the Goddess. I always suspected that the Goddess of Time was actually a second tier diety. As for the Sealed Temple being in the wrong place, it's the same place as the Temple of Time is in TP, and after the building itself erodes with time, the sword is left in the same place it is in ALttP. I'd say it's a retcon of it's position in OoT and it may have always been intended to be LoSt Woods (to match up with ALttP) but they opted to stick it in the corner of Castle Town since it was a more accessible location.

[MikePetersSucks]

I was actually starting to think that the Triforce itself may not be involved at all in TP. SS Link's hand marking glows with each respective piece as he gains each Goddess' flame (or "old gods" now, if you like) long before he actually obtains any part of the Triforce itself. Perhaps the markings in TP don't indicate actual possession of the Triforce components, but rather the capacity for the three virtues.

Honestly, I don't really like that or believe it. It's just a thought that occurred to me.

Funny you should say that, it's possible to interpret Link as having obtained the Triforces with each Flame, given that he had to draw out the Triforces from the Silent Realm, which is technically in his mind.

Aren't both Temples associated with her anyways? I mean there's a friggin huge Hylian crest symbol adorning the building and this is before Hyrule itself gets it's namesake so it's probably a reference to Hylia herself just like all the other times it appears in SS. I still say it's a safe bet considering how strongly time travel is emphasized in regards to the Goddess.

ALL temples are associated with Hylia, though, it seems. So that means she's fire-, water-, lightning-, desert-, and whatever else too. TVTropes speculated her to be a Goddess of Creation itself, ruling over all its aspects even if she wasn't its creator. She would essentially be "Every-Elemental".

I always suspected that the Goddess of Time was actually a second tier diety.

I'd argue she's like, 1.5th tier; she's certainly in a league all her own to the point where she's almost-equal to the Big Three.

As for the Sealed Temple being in the wrong place, it's the same place as the Temple of Time is in TP, and after the building itself erodes with time, the sword is left in the same place it is in ALttP. I'd say it's a retcon of it's position in OoT and it may have always been intended to be LoSt Woods (to match up with ALttP) but they opted to stick it in the corner of Castle Town since it was a more accessible location.

Acceptable. Besides lolgeography mirite?

By the way, does the Hylia/Zelda thing re-open the door to the Oracles literally being incarnations of the Goddesses, or what?

[FDL]

Considering her temple becomes the Temple of Time

I wouldn't say that's an absolute fact. Aside from a Temple of Time ALREADY EXISTING, the Sealed Temple is in the wrong location and the Master Sword has been moved around before without a Link pulling it out. Even if her temple was repurposed into the Temple of Time, it says nothing about her personal divine properties since she's not really using it anymore.

Aren't both Temples associated with her anyways? I mean there's a friggin huge Hylian crest symbol adorning the building and this is before Hyrule itself gets it's namesake so it's probably a reference to Hylia herself just like all the other times it appears in SS. I still say it's a safe bet considering how strongly time travel is emphasized in regards to the Goddess. I always suspected that the Goddess of Time was actually a second tier diety. As for the Sealed Temple being in the wrong place, it's the same place as the Temple of Time is in TP, and after the building itself erodes with time, the sword is left in the same place it is in ALttP. I'd say it's a retcon of it's position in OoT and it may have always been intended to be LoSt Woods (to match up with ALttP) but they opted to stick it in the corner of Castle Town since it was a more accessible location.

I agree here, I think with the shot of the Master Sword at the end of SS and all that SS, OoT, TP, and ALttP are showing the Master Sword at the same place in different eras. I think it's quite possible that, outside of gameplay, it's supposed to have never been moved in the child timeline and it was simply consumed by the Lost Woods after OoT. FSA in particular establishes that the Lost Woods can rapidly encroach on areas and OoT establishes how the Lost Woods can lead to many different areas.

[joeymartin64]

Really not in the mood for a big debate on this, but I don't think that really works for TP at all.

Me neither, really. Like I said, it was just something that occurred to me.

...the crowd who does everything to deny the Triforce being in Twilight Princess or anything...

And I had no idea this faction even existed.

Funny you should say that, it's possible to interpret Link as having obtained the Triforces with each Flame, given that he had to draw out the Triforces from the Silent Realm, which is technically in his mind.

And this I sort of like. I don't know if the Silent Realms were meant to be in Link's mind, though. It seemed more like a spiritual projection in a spiritual world created by someone else (since they were called [Name's] Silent Realm and all) than within his mind, but I do like what you've brought up here. I will say, given the other possibility, it's equally possible they simply set up much smaller Silent Realms to house the components to make sure no one who wasn't worthy would enter them, though.

Edited by joeymartin64, 06 December 2011 - 05:24 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

And this I sort of like. I don't know if the Silent Realms were meant to be in Link's mind, though. It seemed more like a spiritual projection in a spiritual world created by someone else (since they were called [Name's] Silent Realm and all) than within his mind, but I do like what you've brought up here. I will say, given the other possibility, it's equally possible they simply set up much smaller Silent Realms to house the components to make sure no one who wasn't worthy would enter them, though.

Well, Fi DOES say that they do exist FOR/IN his mind, and if he's mentally present within it and no one else can ever go there, what's the metaphysical difference?

I do like the idea of the placement of the Triforce in Skyloft being metaphorical, though. It was hidden in Skyloft...In Link.

Who's backround is entirely unaccounted for, might I add.

[joeymartin64]

Well, Fi DOES say that they do exist FOR/IN his mind, and if he's mentally present within it and no one else can ever go there, what's the metaphysical difference?

Well, the difference would be that in one scenario, he accesses the Triforces from within his own mind, as you've suggested, while in the other, they exist in a spiritual realm that only Link can access, but are still external from him until Sky Keep.

[MikePetersSucks]

Well, yes, but what's the difference between a realm that only exists in your mind and a realm that can only be accessed by your mind, specifically? Contents of said realm, aside.

I mean, it's not like dreams and the like don't have an objectively real power in Hyrule anyway.

[joeymartin64]

The contents are all I'm concerned with. We were talking about whether or not Link actually had the Triforce prior to Sky Keep.

And really, the more I think about it, the more I don't think it really works, cool as it is. What with Fi's ability to sense the Triforce parts, I'd think she'd have noticed, especially considering all the urgency surrounding trying to find it. And even if he had them but just couldn't use them for whatever reason prior to Sky Keep, Fi kept using the same "find it" language as everyone else.

[MikePetersSucks]

And Fi is also unable to go into the Silent Realm, so regardless of its nature, she wouldn't really be of any use whatsoever. That argument doesn't work for either side.

[joeymartin64]

Well, no, I'm not saying she'd be useful. I'm just saying she'd probably realize before the Sky Keep thing that Link already had the Triforces and probably alter her language to reflect that. That is, she'd say he needed to "activate" them or something, rather than continuing to say "find" like everyone else.

Edited by joeymartin64, 07 December 2011 - 11:09 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

She doesn't realize things until she's programmed to do so. She has all this information stored in her head and it's not available to her to report or even act upon until certain flags are triggered. This happens throughout the game in ways that really waste Link's time and puts the stakes at higher rates than they should be, but that's just how things roll in the plans of the Gods.

[joeymartin64]

That's true when it comes to the messages and so forth. The thing is, I'm not talking about one of those pre-recorded things her memory grants her access to upon a flag. I'm talking about her ability to sense the sacred power of the Triforce, and it's not coming from Link; it's coming from the Gate Trials on the floor of Sky Keep.

[MikePetersSucks]

That's true when it comes to the messages and so forth. The thing is, I'm not talking about one of those pre-recorded things her memory grants her access to upon a flag. I'm talking about her ability to sense the sacred power of the Triforce, and it's not coming from Link; it's coming from the Gate Trials on the floor of Sky Keep.

She has to unlock the ability to dowse things, too, and can't track auras until they become significant. And big deal, gate trials allow Link to enter his mind/a world connected to his mind. If a portal connects to one's subconscious, and a power contained within your consciousness radiates out from that portal, of course it'll give this sort of sixth sense-optical illusion.

[joeymartin64]

Heh, fine. Still a little torn on it, but yeah, that pretty much works, I suppose.

[SOAP]

ALL temples are associated with Hylia, though, it seems. So that means she's fire-, water-, lightning-, desert-, and whatever else too. TVTropes speculated her to be a Goddess of Creation itself, ruling over all its aspects even if she wasn't its creator. She would essentially be "Every-Elemental".

I'd argue she's like, 1.5th tier; she's certainly in a league all her own to the point where she's almost-equal to the Big Three.

*shrug* She's basically an amalgamation of all three anyways. Heck my initial assumption was something like Twinrova, except with three sister goddesses combining into one mega Goddess.

Acceptable. Besides lolgeography mirite?

Hey! I was gonna invoke lolgeography. But I thought it would be too glib.

By the way, does the Hylia/Zelda thing re-open the door to the Oracles literally being incarnations of the Goddesses, or what?

I wouldn't be against it.

[Masamune]

ALL temples are associated with Hylia, though, it seems. So that means she's fire-, water-, lightning-, desert-, and whatever else too. TVTropes speculated her to be a Goddess of Creation itself, ruling over all its aspects even if she wasn't its creator. She would essentially be "Every-Elemental".

I'd argue she's like, 1.5th tier; she's certainly in a league all her own to the point where she's almost-equal to the Big Three.

*shrug* She's basically an amalgamation of all three anyways. Heck my initial assumption was something like Twinrova, except with three sister goddesses combining into one mega Goddess.

I got the opposite impression, like she's a good step below the Big Three. Like, you have the Creators, and then Hylia and Demise as two opposing forces of Light and Darkness who govern and maintain the balance of the world. If she was as powerful (or more powerful) than the Big Three, then why would she care about the Triforce?

[MikePetersSucks]

Maybe the creation of the Triforce involved literally giving up most of their powers. Who knows.