26 replies to this topic

[SOAP]

Okay, this has probably been brought up before. Actually, I know for a fact it's been brought up before. But perhaps after what we have learned so far about skyward sword, things might have changed so I thought it couldn't hurt to broach the subject again. If anything, to get some discussion going on here.

Since Skyward Sword takes Zelda above the clouds, naturally space would literally be the next level to take the series. Now I know people think that space is too scifi and Zelda is supposed to be a medieval fantasy and all that jazz. I personally disagree but whatever. As purely a thought experiment how could Nintendo take Zelda into a space environment without spoiling the general fairy tale atmosphere?

One thing is clear, if Zelda goes to space, the space setting MUST serve a purpose. You can't just slap Link into a spaceship called Epona, turn Hyrule Castle into an orbital space station, and call it Zelda. It would be the same old shit just a different scene. It'd just be a gimmick. A very cheesy and obvious gimmick. Secondly some cliches need to be avoided. Some obvious ones: Hyrule being invaded by aliens, aliens kidnapping Zelda specifically and Link stows away on a spaceship to rescue her, lightsaber mastersword, and while we're at it, anything bearing any simmilarity to the Star Wars, especially Episode IV.

Firstly, I think it's actually conceivable that the Hyruleans could eventually acheieve space travel. It might involve magic somehow, kinda like how trains involves magic in Spirit Tracks, but it's very possible nonetheless. Out of all the tribes in HYrule, the Gorons might be the first to arrive there. They're shown to adept in metallurgy, or at least that's the impression I got from the Goron Mines in TP. They would have the means, skills, and brute strength to invent Hyrule's Spaceship. They might even have incentive to go to space. Maybe they see the moon, asteroids, and other planet's in Hyrule's star system and find the rocks out there tasty. There might even be a collaborative effort with Hylians/Humans providing their intellect to actually get the heap of metal off the ground.

Say the people of Hyrule do colonize a nearby planet but there's already a race of beings living there. And they're not too happy with the people of Hyrule building towns all over their planet so they fight back. In this sense, the people of Hyrule, including Link, are the space invaders and the "aliens" are just trying to protect their home. It might even serve as a mindfuck to have players deal with the moral rammifications of dealing with a sympathetic antagonist that just wants to be left alone. If Ganondorf does appear he may even seize the oppurtunity to stir the pot even more by siding with the aliens and dooping them into thinking Hylians are evil. Kinda like how he converted Zant and some of the Twili in TP. Link's role would be to fix the misunderstandings between the two worlds and right the wrongs of his people. Instead of a sidekick, since those get old fast, say he has a rival of sorts amongst the aliens. A rebellious female warrior who's disillusioned by Ganondorf brainwashing her people and is on a quest of her own to save her people. At first she doesn't trust Link since he's human and constantly attacks Link at different points of the game. Link can never kill her since she pulls a Sheik and vanishes whenever Link gets close to defeating her. Eventually she grows to trust Link and starts helping him instead rather than have her trust and guide Link right off the bat as most sidekicks do. Okay, now it's starting to sound too much like Avatar. Oh well, at least in something.

The overall theme of the game could be about two cultures clashing and eventually making peace. A positive message and one that would make the space setting actually appropriate for once.

Edit: I meant to post this in Zelda General. Can this be moved there? Unless it's relevant enough to apply here. I don't know.

Edited by SOAP, 18 March 2011 - 02:21 AM.

[Showsni]

Moved as requested.

Well, we already have a game where Link travels to the moon... There's even a spaceship shown in that game (in the Bomb Shop), created by humans. But, well, I can see how people would be resistant to the idea...

I think, if Zelda were to go to space, it would be better to play up the fantasy rather than going sci fi on us. Link in a space suit, for instance, would just be a no. We've got magic to cope with problems like not being able to breathe (or just ignore the problem, like Mario Galaxy). I guess it could be done, but still, pretty unlikely for them to go for it...

[Egann]

I see a Zelda game where there's a Stargate-like wormhole-thingy working quite well. SpaceSHIPS? That's a different matter. Spaceships require advanced technology to produce the EPIC amounts of energy to move them and to contain the air for them to work in. Conceivably, a magic-technology hybrid would work, but it would be VERY tricky to pull off. And the magic--as well as the technology--would have to be leaps and bounds beyond anything we've seen in the Zelda series to date; the bridge of light the sages made (and Link was shocked by) in Ocarina of Time would be something that every ship would have MANY times over and be outright mundane.

Rather than spacetravel, though, how about parallel universe compression? Ganondorf HAS the power, and TP showed he can escape the void into the "wrong" universe, so merging two universes to make things more difficult for Link sounds interesting (that, and ever since I saw Cosmos and heard Carl Sagan explain the 4th dimention, I have REALLY wanted to see a puzzle where space was the variable factor.)

[Hana-Nezumi]

I think it could be done, but it would be tricky. They would need to get creative for it to work with the medieval setting. Probably focusing more on magic than technology... Maybe if not actually including space travel, having Link discover an ancient tribe that is revealed (or hinted at) to be from outer space. Or maybe something like Laputa: Castle in the Sky, but in space.

[CID Farwin]

*sigh*

That game you're describing? Yeah, I've played it, and it was done much better than Nintendo could ever hope.



Now, I ranted about this in another thread, so I'll try and keep this short, but what you have there is a good idea. If you like that idea enough, go ahead and write that story. Because that's not a Zelda story.

The sad thing is that I can totally see Nintendo doing this, especially with the direction they're going (which reminds me more and more of Okami) with TWW, TP, ST, and What I've seen of SS.

It's just...

*ugh*

[SOAP]

I see a Zelda game where there's a Stargate-like wormhole-thingy working quite well. SpaceSHIPS? That's a different matter. Spaceships require advanced technology to produce the EPIC amounts of energy to move them and to contain the air for them to work in. Conceivably, a magic-technology hybrid would work, but it would be VERY tricky to pull off. And the magic--as well as the technology--would have to be leaps and bounds beyond anything we've seen in the Zelda series to date; the bridge of light the sages made (and Link was shocked by) in Ocarina of Time would be something that every ship would have MANY times over and be outright mundane.

Rather than spacetravel, though, how about parallel universe compression? Ganondorf HAS the power, and TP showed he can escape the void into the "wrong" universe, so merging two universes to make things more difficult for Link sounds interesting (that, and ever since I saw Cosmos and heard Carl Sagan explain the 4th dimention, I have REALLY wanted to see a puzzle where space was the variable factor.)

Thing is, Zelda has already done parallel worlds: Dark World in ALttP and FSA, Koholint in LA (depending on who you ask), the four seas of the Ocean King in PH, the Twilight Realm in TP. Just to name a few. The Twilight Realm is probably the closest we've got to a truly alien world. Since you've mentioned stargate, why not something like the Orii. Their civilization was medieval-ish but had spacefaring ships. Or they could just handwave technology altogether and just have magical galleons that traverse the stars as if it were an ocean. Because space is an ocean after all.

CID, I'd still like to see a sidekick for Link taht doesn't immediately trust him if that's okay. Byrne was the cloest though he was more of a villian's badass lackey that did a faceheel turn and became a badass jerk with a heart of gold. I think it would be cool if Link teams up with someone who has simmilar heroic qualities as him but to have that relation evolve over the course of the game instead of "Oh well you rescued me so I guess I'll tag along with you and be at your beck and call even though I just met you literally three seconds ago."

And I've never played WoW. :/

Edited by SOAP, 18 March 2011 - 12:29 PM.

[Selena]

Fair exchange Nintendo policy.

If Link goes to space, Samus gets a broadsword and has to hack open Metroids after they invade castles.

In short: Do not want.

I like Zelda as a mythic fairytale set in an age long gone. That was its niche, and that's where it thrived. Zelda's a mystical sort of adventure. Ideally. It's the gimmicks and puzzle solving that has brought down the series, at least in my view. Not the setting. If the main plot would be Hyrule colonizing against the other culture's wishes, why bother with space or taking Zelda out of its normal setting in general? Just have Hyrule colonize a brand new land.

[SOAP]

Fair exchange Nintendo policy.

If Link goes to space, Samus gets a broadsword and has to hack open Metroids after they invade castles.

In short: Do not want.

I like Zelda as a mythic fairytale set in an age long gone. That was its niche, and that's where it thrived. Zelda's a mystical sort of adventure. Ideally. It's the gimmicks and puzzle solving that has brought down the series, at least in my view. Not the setting. If the main plot would be Hyrule colonizing against the other culture's wishes, why bother with space or taking Zelda out of its normal setting in general? Just have Hyrule colonize a brand new land.

This is where you and I may disagree. I don't see Zelda taking place in an age long gone. It's more of an anachronistic stew, with more and more advanced technologies popping up. If anything it's more like a post-apocalyptic world where a once super advanvced society existed but then vanished without a trace, sending the survivors back to the medieval age. Few artifacts here there survivor and ancient technologies get reinvented. I think it's a little pedantic to say Link can't be taken to space because that'd be like taking Samus to the dark ages. If we can send plumbers up there, why not pointy-eared farm boys with swords? It doesn't need to be a scifi futuristic Zelda to involve space travel. SMG avoids the whole futuristic scifi trappings (except for a few levels) and still manages to take Mario to space without it being too jarring. You can keep Hyrule in it's "medieval fantasy" setting, but I think space travel would still be very possible for Hylians, albeit in a different fashion than what we're used to seeing. Besides, it's not like rocket ships and aliens haven't appeared in Zelda before *cough* MM *cough*

You know what, I went about this the wrong way. Forget my idea about the subjected alien race. My premise was far too complicated to be a Zelda game. Usually the Zelda team focuses on gameplay first and plot after. So if they were to do space travel in a Zelda game, it would have to be something new that hasn't been tried before and then whatever plot or motive to justify the space setting can be built off that.

EDIT: If anything New Hyrule could progress to space travel since the Lokomo gave them a jumpstart into a more industralized steampunk direction.

Edited by SOAP, 18 March 2011 - 06:09 PM.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

You know, I tried writing a Zelda fanfic set in the future... in space. In the end, I realised there was nothing I couldn't do in the fic set in space that I couldn't do, if I had it set back in Hyrule in a medieval setting. So I abandoned it.

I'd say that the furthest Zelda could go without becoming something else entirely is Steampunk Renaissance like Paul McAuley's Pasquale's Angel. Anything further than that and we lose the fantasy setting altogether.

Edited by Wolf O'Donnell, 19 March 2011 - 01:01 PM.

[SOAP]

You know, I tried writing a Zelda fanfic set in the future... in space. In the end, I realised there was nothing I couldn't do in the fic set in space that I couldn't do, if I had it set back in Hyrule in a medieval setting. So I abandoned it.

I'd say that the furthest Zelda could go without becoming something else entirely is Steampunk Renaissance like Paul McAuley's Pasquale's Angel. Anything further than that and we lose the fantasy setting altogether.

Plotwise, yeah there's nothing you can do in a space setting taht you can't do in a traditional Zelda setting. But gameplaywise, that's where the potential is and taht's what can make or break the whole concept. In such a game you'd actually be travelling to a totally different planet, not just sailing to a new land or going through a portal to a parallel world or being spirited away into a totally different location. That's been done. That's why if they ever do do a space Zelda, it would have to break the mold that [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of space games make. For one thing they'd have to avoid falling into treating space as 2D. Lots of writers, animators, and game amkers make this same "mistake." Mostly because it's easier to convey what's going on to us surface dwellers. Making use of all three dimensions in space would be the tricky part. Super Mario Galaxy, despite some scientific inaccuracy, did a pretty good job of just that in it's level design. It could build off of that.

The way I can see it working is something like this. Link is partnered up with an anstronomer whose magic-infused FTL ship has a telescope. The player uses the telescope to locate the different neighboring star systems he has to visit to complete his quest. Each star system is easily identifiable by find the constellation it belongs to. Once in that star system, it's basically like the game Spore, where you can easily find the different planets you can visit orbiting the star. There are many planets and asteroids that Link's ship can land on but only needs to visit a few of them to beat any temples/dungeongs. The rest may contain towns, sidequests, items, ect. Some dungeons aren't on planets at all and float about like ancient space colonies. All of these star systems are arranged randomly in all directions around Link's homeworld, which may act like a hub in which Link can find the other star systems. Some star systems he can go to in any order while others don't become available unless some plot element is fullfilled. I'm thinking something simple where you have to connect the dots on Link's starmap to actually complete the constellation but only certain constellations can be connected a certian way. Beating one dungeon reveals the correct way to draw the constellation for the next constellations. Some constellations can be secrets that only completeing a task for a NPC can be revealed.

From taht a plot starts to develop. Ganondorf or some entirely new villian casts a spell on Hyrule where the stars become obscured by a dark shroud. Link, a stargazing dreamer who is the first to notice when his favorite constellation vanishes before his eyes. No one believes him because that's impossible. They write him off as a foolish kid and go about their business. The only people who do believe him are Princess Zelda, who gets equally ignored by her father, and an crazy old man who's working on some top secret project with the Gorons. Eventually it gets hard to ignore that the night sky is getting darker and the people begin to panic, fearing the sun may be next. But luckily after Link aids the astronomer with his project, it turns out to be Hyrule's first spaceship which will allow them to ascend to the heavens and find out what's going on once and for all. Traveling to various temples throughout the cosmos gets rid of portions of the shroud covering Hyrule's star system that's blocking that particular constellation.

Edit: More ideas! Before Link can even go the nearest star system, he must find three key items. The first key item, a powerful telescope, can be found on Hyrule's moon in a jungle of silver plantlife and ghostly animals. The second, a starmap, is on a red dusty planet amongst the ruins of a dried up canal city. The remaining one, an ancient jumpdrive, exists on a floating steampunk temple on the upper atmosphere of a thickly clouded planet.

Edited by SOAP, 19 March 2011 - 02:37 PM.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

The problem with setting the thing in space is now you're venturing on sci-fi territory. Fantasy goes out the window. The Legend of Zelda is a fantasy series and you've got to keep some kind of fantasy setting.

People keep thinking of the future, but what about going into the past? I mean further into the past. Let's say to an era similar to Hellenistic Greece or the heyday of the Roman Empire.

[SOAP]

See, I disagree with that. I disagree that space-travel automatically equates to futuristic. Ever heard of Chariots of the Gods? Yeah the two concepts go hand-in-hand most of the time, but there are examples of space-faring adventures that don't take place in the future or involve any sort of futurustic technology and there are examples of stories set in a futuristic setting that have nothing or little do with space travel (Caprica anyone?). Zelda has always mixed and matched stuff from different eras, which is part of it's charm. Let it be clear that I'm not saying Hyrule should be all skscrappers, lazer guns, and floating holographic displays (though if it were to go that way I could see it looking something like Hillys from BGoE). It would still be castles, swords, and wizards and all that. The only reason it would be a big deal is that it's taken a peiece anachronistic technology from the background and making it the central plot. It's the same gripe people had about Link riding a train in ST and a steam boat in PH, but in my opinion these things fit quite well in the Zelda series and didn't really take from the sense of magic and wonder in the Zeldaverse. And MM already got our feet wet with elements of space travel so it's not like there's not already a precendent. A space setting needn't take away from the whole fantasy atmosphere. It could enlarge it by taking Link to truly alien worlds more magical and beautiful than Hyrule and traverse dungeons no longer bound by the same earth physics as Hyrule. What about a water dungeon where whole bodies of water are floating spheres of water? What about a fairy-inhabited forest growing on an asteroid belt with an atmosphere?

Edit: They could also take full advanatge of 3D space by having Link on the lookout for dogfights not only coming from the sides and the front and back also from above and below. Up and down would not have the same meaning in space so more creative battles could take place. The same could be true if Link is forced to use his sword in a zero g fight, like say space pirates hijack his ship. He kill one enemy and use the impact to bounce off them and give him the momentum to attack another one.

Edited by SOAP, 19 March 2011 - 04:11 PM.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

There is one more pressing issue. The train and the ship both took away from the ability to explore. So will the spaceship. Yes, you'd be able to explore worlds, but they'd be very limited small worlds like the islands and stations in Wind Waker/Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks. They'd have to be in order to fit on the disc.

There is one way in which this wouldn't be the case, however.

Nintendo will have to release the game episodically. It will have to span more than one disc and would inevitably either be very expensive or span several games.

Here's the thing, though. For it to fully realise the potential of space-faring, it would have to set some gaming elements in space. Otherwise, it's just like the train or ship, a gimmicky thing with little relevance to the main overarching plot. It will be completely unneeded, unless there's some memorable gameplay in space and ultimately that will turn the game into Star Fox[i/] or rather [i]Star Fox Adventures.

[SOAP]

Those are some really good points. Being able to explore the enviroment is really important. For some reason, Nintendo seems to be going in the oppsite direction, making travel more and more linear and less freerange. I didn't mind the train but I can see how that can take away from the whole Zelda experience, which is first and foremost about exploring.

I for one like TWW's sailing. I just didn't like having to stop and play a short song everytime I needed to change direction. The steamboat in PH was an improvement but you still needed to stop to plot a new course. The train took a huge step backwards and forced you use set paths. I wouldn't want to use any of those methods. They wouldn't make much use of 3D space anyways. I was thinking something more along of Ubisoft's Beyond Good and Evil in terms of travel. It even had a docking option whenever you got near a dockable area, something I really, REALLY, wished TWW had.

As for the planets, asteroids, and other areas Link could land on and explore, I guess they would be like the islands in TWW. That's the best way I can think of them without making the game ridiculously large. As long as the areas on those planets are relatively large it could still work. Imagine something like TWW, but with fewer but larger islands all scattered in all directions in a 3D sphere instead of a 2D plane. There'd also need to plenty of things to do while going from planet to planet, which is why I suggested dogfights making use a z-axis and sword fights in zero g. This could become too complicated though, which is also a problem. Everything would have to scaled down and become compact, and there'd have to be plenty of easily identifiable references so players won't get too disoriented and be able to go wherever the hell they need to go.

[Selena]

This is where you and I may disagree. I don't see Zelda taking place in an age long gone. It's more of an anachronistic stew, with more and more advanced technologies popping up.

Technology has only been introduced in recent games, and general consensus seems to be that the newer games aren't exactly as impressive as older titles. The older games stay true to the medieval setting, and the aliens in MM are basically there for the wtf/comic effect factor rather than anything serious. If there's a single timeline then I guess the technology is now canon, but the company doesn't seem to make any real effort at uniting the plots, and I always play every game as if it were a standalone title. Which I think is true for most gamers, because linking the game storylines together takes too much effort and ultimately doesn't make much sense in the end. So while new games may have technology lingering about, the series traditionally does not have such things. And even if there is technology, the leap to space is still a pretty big leap.

I think it's a little pedantic to say Link can't be taken to space because that'd be like taking Samus to the dark ages. If we can send plumbers up there, why not pointy-eared farm boys with swords?

Mario isn't the same kind of game, though. You can set a Mario game almost anywhere and it'd still make sense, because it's all about platforming. There's also no real plot other than "save Peach" and the setting has always been all over the place. The settings in Mario are for gameplay purposes only. Zelda and various other franchises still put a lot of emphasis on gameplay, but not nearly as much as Mario. Setting, atmosphere, and 'soul' partly give these franchises their very identity.

Metroid has a distinct setting and atmosphere. It involves Samus as a solo agent fighting in hostile space environments against face-hugging aliens. Individual planets may have some archaic technology, but, for the most part, it stays true to the laser cannon era. Start throwing in teammates and handholding for Samus and it doesn't feel right, which was a complaint with Other M.

Castlevania has the same gameplay as Metroid, but they feel like entirely different games due to the atmosphere and weaponry. Castlevania is set in the late Middle Ages or the Renaissance and occurs in a fairly goth setting with lots of undead things running around. And even in the few games set in more recent times, it still involves medieval weaponry and the traditional settings, so you don't even really notice that it takes place in the modern era.

Zelda is traditionally a mystical adventure set in a medieval-era Hyrule (or similar land). Traditional fantasy with dragon slaying, exploration, and rescuing princesses from towers after you kill a big dark lord. It's a place of magic and heroism. Like the Legend movie. There's still tons of stuff you can do with this setting that has been set aside in favor of gimmicky stuff.



Zelda in space, even if it's done more like Mario Galaxy, would be like Elder Scrolls in space. It largely defeats the purpose and goes against the soul of the whole franchise. It'd probably be better to fix all the gimmicky problems Zelda has and make a good game in its traditional setting rather than blast off into a polar opposite atmosphere. Or even reboot the series all together. I wouldn't be opposed to a well done remake of the first two games.



The idea seems kind of like a phenomenon that takes over various fan works. You know, "This would be a really good idea for an original game/story, but it totally clashes with the source material you're trying to base it off of."


So it's not a bad idea for a game in general, but I think it clashes with Zelda. :\

[Fin]

I don't really think anachronisms like the Picto Box matter all that much anyway. Depending on where you stand, they're either cute or irksome, but they don't really add or detract from the overall atmosphere significantly. It's only when those elements become a major part of the setting and gameplay - like in Soul Train - that I think we can legitimately bring it to the table.

I haven't played the DS games, mostly for economic reasons, but I don't really have the desire to either. They're getting further away from I think Zelda should be.

That said, a fantasy game with a scifi aesthetic could be fun. Hell, that was half of what was so frickin' awesome about the original Star Wars movies. Just make it a new franchise.

Edited by Finbarr, 20 March 2011 - 10:32 PM.

[joeymartin64]

Popping in here to say that I agree with Selena, and to ask if I can steal the phrase "Laser Cannon Era" to use as an album title or something.

[SOAP]

This is where you and I may disagree. I don't see Zelda taking place in an age long gone. It's more of an anachronistic stew, with more and more advanced technologies popping up.

Technology has only been introduced in recent games, and general consensus seems to be that the newer games aren't exactly as impressive as older titles. The older games stay true to the medieval setting, and the aliens in MM are basically there for the wtf/comic effect factor rather than anything serious. If there's a single timeline then I guess the technology is now canon, but the company doesn't seem to make any real effort at uniting the plots, and I always play every game as if it were a standalone title. Which I think is true for most gamers, because linking the game storylines together takes too much effort and ultimately doesn't make much sense in the end. So while new games may have technology lingering about, the series traditionally does not have such things. And even if there is technology, the leap to space is still a pretty big leap.

I think it's a little pedantic to say Link can't be taken to space because that'd be like taking Samus to the dark ages. If we can send plumbers up there, why not pointy-eared farm boys with swords?

Mario isn't the same kind of game, though. You can set a Mario game almost anywhere and it'd still make sense, because it's all about platforming. There's also no real plot other than "save Peach" and the setting has always been all over the place. The settings in Mario are for gameplay purposes only. Zelda and various other franchises still put a lot of emphasis on gameplay, but not nearly as much as Mario. Setting, atmosphere, and 'soul' partly give these franchises their very identity.

Metroid has a distinct setting and atmosphere. It involves Samus as a solo agent fighting in hostile space environments against face-hugging aliens. Individual planets may have some archaic technology, but, for the most part, it stays true to the laser cannon era. Start throwing in teammates and handholding for Samus and it doesn't feel right, which was a complaint with Other M.

Castlevania has the same gameplay as Metroid, but they feel like entirely different games due to the atmosphere and weaponry. Castlevania is set in the late Middle Ages or the Renaissance and occurs in a fairly goth setting with lots of undead things running around. And even in the few games set in more recent times, it still involves medieval weaponry and the traditional settings, so you don't even really notice that it takes place in the modern era.

Zelda is traditionally a mystical adventure set in a medieval-era Hyrule (or similar land). Traditional fantasy with dragon slaying, exploration, and rescuing princesses from towers after you kill a big dark lord. It's a place of magic and heroism. Like the Legend movie. There's still tons of stuff you can do with this setting that has been set aside in favor of gimmicky stuff.



Zelda in space, even if it's done more like Mario Galaxy, would be like Elder Scrolls in space. It largely defeats the purpose and goes against the soul of the whole franchise. It'd probably be better to fix all the gimmicky problems Zelda has and make a good game in its traditional setting rather than blast off into a polar opposite atmosphere. Or even reboot the series all together. I wouldn't be opposed to a well done remake of the first two games.



The idea seems kind of like a phenomenon that takes over various fan works. You know, "This would be a really good idea for an original game/story, but it totally clashes with the source material you're trying to base it off of."


So it's not a bad idea for a game in general, but I think it clashes with Zelda. :\

You and I must have different definitions of medieval fantasy then. When I read that, I think of western europe during the dark/middle ages. Zelda hasn't been that since the NES era. Even then, AoL strikes me of having an even more ancient greco-roman influence to me. Graphically speaking they didn't have much to go on. Zelda has always been anachronistic, not just with eras but with cultures. ALttP had elements of both Eastern/Asian and Aztec. Without going into minor technological anachronism, had a more Renaissance feel. TWW is a big melting pot of Irish, Slavic, Asian, and Aztec flavors. TP was more Eastern European than past installments with a dose of wild, wild west and sumo westlers thrown in. At most Zelda has been overall Medieval European-ish, but never has been strictly so. It's no more middle age European than Disney's Dave the Barabarian.

It is a Heroic Fantasy, I just challenge the notion that all Fantasies automatically equals middle age Europe. It's cliche. There are very fairly good fantasy works set in more modern setting. At the top of my head, Howl's Moving Castle was reminescent of World War I, but all the steampunk technology present didn't take away from the magic and fantasy atmosphere. Holly Black writes a lot of fairy tale stories about pixies, elves, and goblins set in modern New England. In my opinion, what really clashes with the fantasy feel is not the anachronistic technology but the loss of ties with Nature. Nature is what really defines fantasies, not time periods. Initially the steamboat in PH and the Train in ST may seem outplace technologically speaking but it's not really that. It's the fact that tehy hinder exploration. The Train, particularly is symbolic of Man conquering Nature, making it his bitch, and that carries into the game's atmosphere. New Hyrule is tame, and apparently had been tamed for some time well before Link and Tetra hit it's shores. That's ST's true failure. A New Hyrule would had so much potential as being about the New Frontier filled with savage natives, untainted forests, and harsh deserts which would had been a rich breeding ground for countless fantasy elements to show up. Sadly they did not go that route.

Taking that in account, a space setting could work if it doesn't make the same mistake as ST and lose it's touch with Nature and the Unknown that Zelda... Zelda. It can expand on the fantasy atmosphere by exploring new exotic enviroments in which space flight is nothing more than a neccessary means to get around and not some central gimmick that takes all the spotlight. A babystep in this direction would be to only involve spaceflight for one dungeon or part of the plot. Taking my original idea about the Gorons, say they take interest in the rocks on Hyrule's moon and build a ship to get there. Maybe Link needs to get the moon because the next dungeon is there. Maybe he hears the Gorons are trying to get there and part of his quest involves helping them finish their contraption so he can reach his destination. After which he never has to go back to it again.

Edited by SOAP, 21 March 2011 - 04:13 AM.

[Egann]

Technology has only been introduced in recent games, and general consensus seems to be that the newer games aren't exactly as impressive as older titles. The older games stay true to the medieval setting, and the aliens in MM are basically there for the wtf/comic effect factor rather than anything serious. If there's a single timeline then I guess the technology is now canon, but the company doesn't seem to make any real effort at uniting the plots, and I always play every game as if it were a standalone title. Which I think is true for most gamers, because linking the game storylines together takes too much effort and ultimately doesn't make much sense in the end. So while new games may have technology lingering about, the series traditionally does not have such things. And even if there is technology, the leap to space is still a pretty big leap.

Funny you should say that because the "technology" is really in the form of techno-attribution more than actual technology. Case in point with the Rod of Dominion in TP: it acts EXACTLY like magic, but we keep being told it's "lost technology." The same game showed us the exact opposite, as well, with the Gale Boomerang, which was attributed to being possessed with a wind spirit. The only logical conclusion I can draw is that, despite the counter-intuitive implications, in Hyrule, Magic and Technology are effectively synonymous. At the very least the laity treats them the same.

At most Zelda has been overall Medieval European-ish, but never has been strictly so. It's no more middle age European than Disney's Dave the Barabarian.

I just want to add that MM and OoT both had a distinctive bourgeois mercantile middle-class atmosphere that isn't middle ages at all. The only things which really makes the games feel medieval are the royalty (which MM threw under the rug) and the weaponry.




Could Nintendo make a space-traveling Zelda game and it be good? Well, could the Metroid Lena mentioned be made? The answer is yes; the components needed are present...but both would be very difficult to pull off and are very high risk. It's worse than the proverbial mile-long shot; it's a mile long shot on a tiny target surrounded with dynamite. Then you have to ask yourself why would you do that? What does space-travel offer that an expansive world map (with more than just Hyrule) doesn't? The blunt answer is not much. Years ago, I, like Wolf, wrote Zelda fanfiction. I didn't ever try to put it in space, but I did give Link a partner who was former Hyrule Army Corp of Engineers. My original line of thought (beyond the fanfic for a game) was a coop Zelda game similar to how Portal 2 is supposed to have or to work with an AI for complex overworld puzzles rather than having dungeons. That, and a human partner, unlike Tatl or Navi, presumably will actually have something meaningful to say when he opens his mouth. There's no real need for space-travel when you think of more terrestrial mix-ups you could introduce into Zelda.

Edited by Egann, 21 March 2011 - 09:27 AM.

[CID Farwin]

The problem that I have here isn't with the mixing of elements from Sci-Fi and Fantasy, there are many examples where it has been done wonderfully. I have no problem with space, and I have no problem with steampunk. However, these things are not Zelda. The problem I have here is that what you're suggesting turns Zelda into something that it isn't. I know you're citing anachronisms and stuff like steamboats and trains to make your point, but in doing so you're assuming that we're OK with those (I'm not.) Same thing with Mario Galaxy.

Just because it actually happened doesn't mean I think it was a good idea, and it doesn't mean I like it. The big problem here is that Nintendo has abandoned what made Zelda popular to begin with (Standard Fantasy, Action/RPG) in favor of puzzles, trains, and sword people.

Oh, and the companions annoy me. All of them.

Edited by CID Farwin, 21 March 2011 - 06:02 PM.

[Selena]

Well, yes, I mean Medieval-ish. Few fantasy games stick to a perfectly historical representation of a particular era, especially ones as "light" as Zelda. So no, it's not a perfect representation of one specific era, and little bits of otherwise out-of-place technology creep in without any ill effects. It didn't massively alter the feel of things. The technology, which is largely aesthetic, never over-balanced the feelings of mysticism, exploration, and classic myth that Zelda was initially famous for.

Yes, it's a bit cliche that fantasy takes place in a Medieval(ish) era or even a Renaissance era, but in video games Zelda isn't so much a victim of that cliche as it is a reason for it. Spirited Away is a fine piece of work, but it's Spirited Away, not Zelda. The technology in Spirited Away, and any other fantasy, works because the setting starts out that way. They forge their own identities because they have no previous titles coming before them.

Take Star Wars as an example.

The expanded universe goes back thousands upon thousands of years. Let's say you were to make a prequel set so far back that it would pre-date lightsabers, blasters, easy interstellar travel, and galactic knowledge of the Force is basically this "thing" they can feel but can't understand or use. Would people running around with bullet-based guns and metal swords feel much like Star Wars, whether or not it technically is? Even if you kept the same kind of plot going?

That would be kind of the reverse effect of what a space Zelda would be like. It would technically be a Zelda, but it wouldn't feel much like it. Like I said, it's a fair idea, but for the Zelda franchise? As someone that's played several Zelda titles, I'm not too keen on it. As CID said, just because Nintendo keeps throwing in more technology doesn't mean we necessarily appreciate it.




Which isn't to say fantasy hasn't had space travel before. In Final Fantasy IV, which is essentially medieval(ish) too, there was an entire civilization on the moon that kept meddling in Earth affairs. But, staying true to the setting, travel between the two didn't involve space flight or dogfights or anything that screams "classical" sci-fi. Travel was done via magical teleportation.

I still say there's plenty to explore in Zelda's existing world, because we've rarely if ever been beyond the borders of one nation (Hyrule). There's tons of stuff to see and do out there. That's like Europe starting a space program before discovering the Americas.

Traveling between dimensions? Possible. Space with dogfights and asteroid exploration and whatnot? Again, I'd have to say that'd best belong in a new franchise.

[SOAP]

Lena and Egann, you make good points. I also would like the idea of a human partner for Link for a change. The closest we had to that was Sheik in a couple of OoT cutscenes and Zelda's disembodied ghost stuck in a suit of armor.

CID, I'm not assuming that anyone is okay with any of those anachronisms. In fact I awknowlege that several times and actually explained why anyone wouldn't be okay with the steamboat and train in the DS games. Thing is, since anachronism have been in the series since very early on (I could argue that the Eastern Religious symbols in LOZ's dungeon designs are anachronism, if I really wanted to be anal about it) and here we are 17+ games in and people are still playing them. That's not to say every fan must swallow these anachronism and anyone who disagrees doesn't have a valid opinion. I'm saying that obviously Nintendo mixing and matching all these various cultures and technologies into Zelda is not as risky as fans seem to make it. I'd concede that the train in ST was not that great an idea since it did inhibit gameplay and it was a recent rather addition to the series. A spaceship wouldn't be any better in that light.

Obviously everyone's mileage is going to vary. Different fans have different takes on what defines Zelda. Some fans will refer back to the original LoZ and envision Hyrule as a medieval fanatasy with swords, dragons, and castles. As it was meant to be. Other, like me, point at games like TWW and the upcoming SS and say that's Zelda reaching it's true potential. To me, Hyrule will always be closer to Discworld than Lord of the Rings. It's quirky, charming, and doesn't take itself seriously. Why put Link in a spaceship? Simple: to be fun. To be random. To try new things and then worry about justifying it later. TWW came about simply because the creators wanted Link to sail around in a boat island to island. Well where would they get a bunch of islands from since Hyrule's a mostly land? They could have set it in a ocean close to Hyrule. They could have made it into a totally different franchise from scratch and not involve Hyrule or Link at all, after all what does sailing a boat have to do with slaying pig wizards and rescuing princesses from a dark tower? But instead they decide to simply flood Hyrule and make the mountains into islands, which gave birth to this epic flood story that has Zelda theorists talking for many years. To me, that's the spirit of Zelda: It's about taking risks and not accepting "No, you can't do that!" as an answer. I may be the only one in the world who believes this but I'm more than confident if a space Zelda were to take that spirit to heart, it would be a successful Zelda game.

Edited by SOAP, 23 March 2011 - 01:01 AM.

[CID Farwin]

No, Nintendo doesn't get to dictate what Zelda is. They don't get to take something and change it into something else and get away with it. They can't just decide that they don't want to sell apples, and sell oranges instead, and still call them apples. I like oranges, but I asked for an apple. They can't fool people into buying oranges forever.

Yes, they should have simply made a new series, instead of progressively running a successful one into the ground. This would give them a new series (Which they are lacking) and it wouldn't chain them down to having to keep Zelda 'staples.'

If they want a Dr. Who of video games, where they can do whatever they want, that's fine, but that's no Zelda game. They don't get to do whatever they want with a previously established universe.

CID, I'm not assuming that anyone is okay with any of those anachronisms. In fact I awknowlege that several times and actually explained why anyone wouldn't be okay with the steamboat and train in the DS games. Thing is, since anachronism have been in the series since very early on (I could argue that the Eastern Religious symbols in LOZ's dungeon designs are anachronism, if I really wanted to be anal about it) and here we are 17+ games in and people are still playing them. That's not to say every fan must swallow these anachronism and anyone who disagrees doesn't have a valid opinion. I'm saying that obviously Nintendo mixing and matching all these various cultures and technologies into Zelda is not as risky as fans seem to make it.

Okay, so not everyone will have to like it, but Nintendo should do it anyway, because 'people will play it?' And what if it turns Zelda into a joke? What if it betrays the market and not only drives people like me away, but turns us against the series? That's just plain bad for business. Just ask George Lucas or Yoshio Sakamoto how that worked out for them.

[Raien]

Surprising no one, I agree with CID Farwin. I used to have every Zelda game with the exception of Oracles on various consoles, but over the past year I've traded in the Wii version of Twilight Princess and the two DS games because I don't find them fun at all. Skyward Sword doesn't look like it will reverse the trend.

I used to be a heavy Zelda timeline theorist as little as two years ago, but I can safely say that I am no longer a fan of Zelda. I no longer look forward to new Zelda games. I no longer think of or talk about the series to other people. I still enjoy the old games, but otherwise Zelda is pretty much dead to me.

Edited by Raien, 24 March 2011 - 12:11 PM.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

The question, of course, is why space-age?

Why not Renaissance? Why not pre-Medieval? Why must we go so ridiculously far forward? The Zelda games haven't even touched the proper steam era. We haven't had proper Steam era or even Diesel era. Why skip all the way to space age? Why not go backwards to a time of nomadic tribes, evil sorcerers in Black Lodges where the owls are not what they seem?

[SOAP]

The question, of course, is why space-age?

Why not Renaissance? Why not pre-Medieval? Why must we go so ridiculously far forward? The Zelda games haven't even touched the proper steam era. We haven't had proper Steam era or even Diesel era. Why skip all the way to space age? Why not go backwards to a time of nomadic tribes, evil sorcerers in Black Lodges where the owls are not what they seem?

Oh goodness no! Not right away and not neccessarily the space age (it could take place in Hyrule's distant past for one. More ancient than SS.).

Edited by SOAP, 24 March 2011 - 10:55 PM.

[ganonlord6000]

The question, of course, is why space-age?

Why not Renaissance? Why not pre-Medieval? Why must we go so ridiculously far forward? The Zelda games haven't even touched the proper steam era. We haven't had proper Steam era or even Diesel era. Why skip all the way to space age? Why not go backwards to a time of nomadic tribes, evil sorcerers in Black Lodges where the owls are not what they seem?

Oh goodness no! Not right away and not neccessarily the space age (it could take place in Hyrule's distant past for one. More ancient than SS.).

I agree with this one. As I've said before, a future Zelda would be fine if it is pulled off well and is gradually built up towards. Would I want it as a game in the main series or a console title? Probably not. A handheld game or a wiiware/dsiware game? Yes. A space Zelda in the past could work as well. Maybe the goddesses were space travelers before they helped create Hyrule? There's evidence that something similar might have happened here on Earth. Sometimes, I think I am only one of the few who has enjoyed the recent Zelda games.

Take Star Wars as an example.

The expanded universe goes back thousands upon thousands of years. Let's say you were to make a prequel set so far back that it would pre-date lightsabers, blasters, easy interstellar travel, and galactic knowledge of the Force is basically this "thing" they can feel but can't understand or use. Would people running around with bullet-based guns and metal swords feel much like Star Wars, whether or not it technically is? Even if you kept the same kind of plot going?

Um...I think they've already done most of that and it works out.