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#1 SteveT

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 11:40 PM

This is a spin-off of the Thor thread. I figured I'd save the mods the effort of splitting the topic.

So the Thor movie. Heimdal, a Norse god, has been cast with a black actor. People are upset. Those people are racists. Now, given that the people complaining most loudly about it do happen to be white supremists doesn't help. Let's ignore that for now.

Heimdal is a Norse god. The Norse had little to no contact with people who weren't also from Europe. Remember that Rome never conquered the Germanic tribes, so they went through most of their formative years without contact with anyone who wasn't white. They probably weren't even aware of the very existence of black people. By extension, Heimdal, the character, is white and Germanic looking.

They cast a black dude anyway. Fine. Apparently, the guy is British Samuel L. Jackson, so Rule of Badass applies. However, the purist in me says that the role was miscast. Apparently that means I'm a racist.

Compare to The Last Airbender, where it was racist not to complain about the casting director choosing the wrong race.

My opinion: Casting should reflect the racial demographics of the setting, not the U.S.

Discuss.

Edited by SteveT, 27 December 2010 - 11:43 PM.


#2 SOAP

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 12:25 AM

You may have a point if it weren't for two things: Firstly Heimdall isn't even human to begin with, he's a god and therefore can be whatever color they want to make him. Just because the people who worshipped the Aesir were white doesn't mean the Aesir themselves have to to be white too. They come a completely seperate realm from Earth and their skin could be purple for all we know. Would he even HAVE skin? It's kinda like saying what color is the Christian God's skin. It's a silly, silly, SILLY arguement.

Secondly, the movie's not based off Norse Mythology. It's based off a Marvel comic based off Norse Mythology, which in turn has already taken artistic license off the original source material to begin with.

Also, to paraphrase someone else's reaction: "So it's okay for a white woman to play Cleopatra or the Queen of Sheba, but a black man can't play a Norse God?"

#3 Selena

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 12:46 AM

Marvel bastardized Norse mythology so much that, at this point, a black guy playing a Scandinavian deity is perhaps one of the lesser offenses.

Now, if this were a depiction of real Norse mythology, you'd have something to argue about. If you were being true to source, then they'd all be played by northern Europeans. And Thor would be a redhead rather than blonde. This is clearly not the case.



*mythnerd mode*

The Christian God comparison is actually irrelevant, since he's never described physically and doesn't mingle with mortals. He's beyond the physical realm. The opposite is true for the Norse deities. They mingled freely and roamed the Earth on a frequent basis. Most, if not all, have physical descriptions in the source material. All honkies.

There's some degree of shapeshifting, though.... I guess that can apply to skin color. Maybe he shifted his look for a new era. Got tired of looking like everyone else. XD

#4 Nevermind

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 02:00 AM

If you don't like it because he doesn't look like the original Marvel character: not racist.

If you don't like it because he is specifically black and not white: racist.

If you don't like it because he is specifically black and you think he may be gay: WELL, then...

#5 SOAP

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 04:04 AM

Marvel bastardized Norse mythology so much that, at this point, a black guy playing a Scandinavian deity is perhaps one of the lesser offenses.

Now, if this were a depiction of real Norse mythology, you'd have something to argue about. If you were being true to source, then they'd all be played by northern Europeans. And Thor would be a redhead rather than blonde. This is clearly not the case.



*mythnerd mode*

The Christian God comparison is actually irrelevant, since he's never described physically and doesn't mingle with mortals. He's beyond the physical realm. The opposite is true for the Norse deities. They mingled freely and roamed the Earth on a frequent basis. Most, if not all, have physical descriptions in the source material. All honkies.

There's some degree of shapeshifting, though.... I guess that can apply to skin color. Maybe he shifted his look for a new era. Got tired of looking like everyone else. XD


I think it's still relevant because there are people out dumb enough to argue whether God is black, white, or whathave you. Without going into the specifics of Christainity here, depending on literally you take Jesus to be a physical representation of the Christian God, it still not that far off a comparison to Norse gods. If you go by that logic God should look Middle Eastern if anything at all. Yet it's just dandy to depict him in media as an old bearded white dude, since of course Jesus is commonly depicted a younger, prettier version of that same concept.

/end religion rant :P

Edited by SOAP, 28 December 2010 - 04:48 AM.


#6 Wolf O'Donnell

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 04:53 AM

The Christian God is obviously Jewish in appearances, because the Jews came up with the idea of him first. So are all the Chinese Gods. And the Greek Gods. And the Norse Gods too. They're all Jewish.

Source: Jewish atheist lesbian.

#7 arunma

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 10:30 AM

Steve, got to agree with you here. Admittedly, I know nothing about the casting for this movie except what you just told me. But still, it's about as stupid to make Thor black as it is to make Lord Vishnu white. Now I'm sure racist people will love to criticize this casting decision. But you can be a non-racist and criticize it too. Imagine the public outcry if the makers of "Invictus" had cast Nelson Mandela with a white guy. OK, comparing Thor and Mandela isn't fair, but you catch my drift.

On a sidenote, this reminds me of the people who were calling for a boycott on Mona Lisa Smile. The movie takes place in the fifties, so when they came to the college campus (Harvard, I think) where it was filmed and were only casting white people, everyone said the movie was racist. Of course everyone was forgetting that black people weren't allowed to go to college in the fifties, and so having black actors even for extras would be anachronistic.

Also reminds me of the people who say that anyone who criticizes Obama is racist. I like Obama and even I think that's stupid. America is getting way too PC, and this is only going to make it harder to distinguish genuine racism.

#8 Egann

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 01:28 PM

Yay. Finally not posting from PSP, so you have to read my diarrhea of the keyboard!....or you could scan for some of the bigger points....


I have to say that I dislike the casting, and far from disliking it because I'm a racist, I dislike it because the decision itself is racist. Let me explain.

Gods have always been reflections of the humans who create their image. Apollo was a Greek personification of human virtue and appears as a handsome greek man in his artwork. Heck, Jesus was a JEW, but when you look at artwork almost always he's portrayed as a white guy. Why? Because most of the artists who depict Jesus have been European and were Caucasian. Artistically and historically speaking, gods are less a reflection of cultural values and more a reflection of the culture itself, so this casting decision COULD have been an artistically meaningful casting call, to symbolize a reflection of our own culture and how it is multicultural by imposing a clearly foreign image into the material.

Could have been. Was it? No.

Really, you have to think like movie producers. Are they thinking about literary reflections of cultures? No. They are concerned that if there are white gods, they must have their token black guy god or else they will be called white supremacists. There isn't a literary bone to be found here; it's just a cheap license cash-in covering its PC ankles.

#9 Raien

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 01:49 PM

Hollywood has always played fast and loose with history because they know that audiences don't really care about historical accuracy. BBC's Merlin has a black maid Guinevere, but that didn't stop the series topping the ratings charts on a constant basis. The only time when historical accuracy matters to people is when the film is presented as a docudrama about a well-known personality or situation.

That all said, I think the main reason why we have tokenism like with Heimdall's casting is because Hollywood is generally unwilling to give lead roles to minority actors, which is because countries like Germany and Japan have infamously avoided films starring non-white leads. If Hollywood was better able to give minorities good representation in films, there wouldn't be such a need to cast them in awkward supporting roles like this.

#10 Veteran

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 05:32 PM

Since I don't know anything about the comic book, I have to ask: are these aliens the Norse gods, or do they just have the names of the Norse gods?

What I mean is, in the comic book world did these aliens walk among us at one point whereby the Nordic people worshipped them?

If they walked among the Nords then yeah, the black casting is historically weird. If these aliens have never been to Earth, then the casting is fine and it's the Norse people of the time with no apparent knowledge of black people who were racist.

#11 SteveT

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 06:24 PM

You may have a point if it weren't for two things: Firstly Heimdall isn't even human to begin with, he's a god and therefore can be whatever color they want to make him. Just because the people who worshipped the Aesir were white doesn't mean the Aesir themselves have to to be white too. They come a completely seperate realm from Earth and their skin could be purple for all we know. Would he even HAVE skin? It's kinda like saying what color is the Christian God's skin. It's a silly, silly, SILLY arguement.


Selena already covered it, but "it's mythology, so there are no rules" is a merit-less argument. The Edda, the other Edda, the Icelandic sagas, art of the time, etc, represented the Norse gods as whitey-white-whites.


Secondly, the movie's not based off Norse Mythology. It's based off a Marvel comic based off Norse Mythology, which in turn has already taken artistic license off the original source material to begin with.


Which hurts your point. Heimdal is in the comics, and he looks like a Norseman.

Also, to paraphrase someone else's reaction: "So it's okay for a white woman to play Cleopatra or the Queen of Sheba, but a black man can't play a Norse God?"


Well, no. Whatever media you're referencing would also lose points for accuracy. Also, you have to be careful with Cleopatra. She was a descendant of Alexander the Great, who was Greek. To quote wikipedia:

The high degree of inbreeding amongst the Ptolemies can be seen from the ancestry of Cleopatra VII. As the stemma below shows, she only had four great-grandparents and six (out of a possible 16) great-great-grandparents; furthermore, four of those six were descended from the other two.



Christian iconography is another mess, but at least you can attribute it to the ignorance of Medieval Europe.

Anwyway, I don't really have any strong feelings about the issue. Just find it mildly annoying.

#12 Reflectionist

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 06:40 PM

Samuel Jackson's in Thor and NOT playing Nick Fury? What in the FUCK.

EDIT: Oh, wait. Never mind. I misread the OP. I don't care, again!

Edited by Reflectionist, 28 December 2010 - 06:43 PM.


#13 Oberon Storm

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 07:34 PM

They cast a black dude anyway. Fine. Apparently, the guy is British Samuel L. Jackson, so Rule of Badass applies. However, the purist in me says that the role was miscast. Apparently that means I'm a racist.

No. Not racist. Just... I can't think of a word for it. We are talking about a Hollywood film based off a comic book. Silly, I guess, would be the word for it. As far as I know the characters in the comic are only loosely based on the mythology, so I don't think it's all that important that the corresponding character in the comics was white.

I'm also not ready to conclude they cast anyone just to meet some black quota.

Also reminds me of the people who say that anyone who criticizes Obama is racist. I like Obama and even I think that's stupid. America is getting way too PC, and this is only going to make it harder to distinguish genuine racism.

Not to derail the thread or anything, but I have never heard anyone actually say this. It has only been pointed out that showing up at a rally with a picture depicting Obama as a monkey or witch doctor could probably be considered racist. Maybe we just missed a point somewhere.

Edited by Chief Fire Storm, 28 December 2010 - 07:47 PM.


#14 Egann

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 10:09 PM

Also reminds me of the people who say that anyone who criticizes Obama is racist. I like Obama and even I think that's stupid. America is getting way too PC, and this is only going to make it harder to distinguish genuine racism.

Not to derail the thread or anything, but I have never heard anyone actually say this. It has only been pointed out that showing up at a rally with a picture depicting Obama as a monkey or witch doctor could probably be considered racist. Maybe we just missed a point somewhere.


From the AP (Back during the campaign.)

Palin's words avoid repulsing voters with overt racism. But is there another subtext for creating the false image of a black presidential nominee "palling around" with terrorists while assuring a predominantly white audience that he doesn't see their America?


I really don't understand how "palling around with Bill Ayers" could translate as racism -as that Ayers is white, wouldn't it be anti-white racism if it were?- but here you have an AP writer trying to make that case, so it has happened. Not as much or as prominently as the ultra-right would have anyone believe, mind you, but it has happened. [/derail]

Hollywood has always played fast and loose with history because they know that audiences don't really care about historical accuracy.


...Yeah, kinda sorta not really. The question here is not if we care about the historical accuracy; it's understood that anyone who cares about it will know and/ or notice these things. The question is why did they (the producers) make a conscious decision about changing them. Why did Tarantino take so may liberties with Inglorious Basterds? Because being a Nazi-killing fantasy was THE POINT. And you'd better believe casting hillbilly Brad Pitt with a ton of look-the-part-Jews was also done on purpose.

What's the point with Thor? Personally, I still just see license cash-in. Consider racial casting accordingly.




#15 Showsni

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 06:32 PM

Forget just this movie, I don't really see the problem in casting anyone in anything regardless of appearance. What I mean is, if you have a choice between a great actor who looks nothing like the character as described in the books, and a mediocre actor who does bear a passing resemblance to the author's description, I'd prefer the great actor every time. It's impossible to get an actor who looks perfectly like my idea of the character anyway. Does Daniel Radcliffe look like my envisioning of Harry Potter? Does (whoever plays the Pevensies in the Narnia films) look like my envisioning of them? Not really. So why should it really matter if they're quite a way off? It's just a shortcoming of film in general that the actor can't look exactly like the character. It would be impossible. There's no need to compromise on acting skill just to try and get someone who looks good.

#16 SOAP

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 10:36 PM

What's the point with Thor? Personally, I still just see license cash-in. Consider racial casting accordingly.


Personally, I just think they just picked him because they liked something about him that had nothing to do with his skin color. Maybe he's that good actor. Maybe they just liked his personality. Maybe he blew them away during casting. They probably didn't give two shits if he was black. What if it was the other way around? What if he had the acting chops and they really liked him but turned him down because he lacked the right skin tone? Then it would be a totally different controversy altogether. Then again, it may have been an intentional jab at actual white supremecist neo-nazis. But if so, what of it? Freedom of Speech, baby. If Neo-Nazi's can run around spewing all kinds of racial bigotry, then there's nothing stopping other people from making fun of them and their racist take on Norse religion in the media. As long as neither side tries to invoke physical harm or anything illegal, then I don't see what the problem is.

#17 Steel Samurai

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 04:14 AM

*puts on know it all film major hat*

Casting is never, ever, ever done with no thought taken to the appearance of an actor. Especially not in Hollywood. Actors are cast for two reasons: because they are a big name and will attract money, or because they look the part and can pull it off relatively believably.

So yes, he was deliberately cast as black.

Bombshell.

In the Thor: The Mighty Avenger comic Heimdall IS black.

So the entire discussion is a bit pointless.

However, if he had not been, then yes, this would probably be another example of a token black character. And thus actually racist. And thus BAD.

#18 SteveT

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 04:36 PM

Bombshell.

In the Thor: The Mighty Avenger comic Heimdall IS black.

So the entire discussion is a bit pointless.


Sort of. It certainly helps, but Thor: Mighty Avenger is an alternate continuity book that started this year. Canonical, main universe, Marvel Heimdal is still Norse-looking. If anything, that combined with the movie casting could indicate the future direction that Marvel is taking the character in.

I'm starting to think that this was just a casting stunt to generate discussion of the movie, and I totally fell for it. I used to be less gullible.

#19 arunma

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 08:10 PM

I sense that someone might be wondering why the heck I brought Obama into a thread on comic books...

OK, forget Obama himself. My point is this: there seems (at least to me) to be a prevalent attitude in America that you can't criticize anyone who's black (or possibly other minority), because to do so is racist. You can think that Obama is the devil without it having to do with his race. Just look up "long legged mack daddy" on YouTube to see a black guy who hates Obama. Now, the analogy isn't perfect, because we're all saying that it's stupid to cast Samuel L. Jackson as Heimdal since he's black. But I sense that the same uber-PC mindset is behind this. And that mindset is actually quite harmful. Falsely accusing people of being racist effectively curtails free speech. I'm all for fighting racism. But when racism isn't an issue, we shouldn't shut people up under the pretense of fighting racists.



#20 SOAP

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 09:14 PM

I'm starting to think that this was just a casting stunt to generate discussion of the movie, and I totally fell for it. I used to be less gullible.

Maybe. I proably wouldn't have even heard of the movie, much less seen it, if this issue wasn't brought it since I'm not really a fan the Thor comics. Right or wrong it's free publicity. Let's see if it pays off.

I sense that someone might be wondering why the heck I brought Obama into a thread on comic books...

OK, forget Obama himself. My point is this: there seems (at least to me) to be a prevalent attitude in America that you can't criticize anyone who's black (or possibly other minority), because to do so is racist. You can think that Obama is the devil without it having to do with his race. Just look up "long legged mack daddy" on YouTube to see a black guy who hates Obama. Now, the analogy isn't perfect, because we're all saying that it's stupid to cast Samuel L. Jackson as Heimdal since he's black. But I sense that the same uber-PC mindset is behind this. And that mindset is actually quite harmful. Falsely accusing people of being racist effectively curtails free speech. I'm all for fighting racism. But when racism isn't an issue, we shouldn't shut people up under the pretense of fighting racists.

But the Council of Conservative Citizens who first brought up the boycott ARE raci--Oh forget it. Everyone watch this youtube video instead of reading another one of my long, boring rants:



#21 arunma

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 12:39 AM

But the Council of Conservative Citizens who first brought up the boycott ARE raci--Oh forget it. Everyone watch this youtube video instead of reading another one of my long, boring rants:


Oh yeah, I know. SteveT even said in his first post that the people who are protesting this are racist. My "too-PC" charge is really levelled against the guys who cast Samuel L. Jackson in the first place. No one stepped back for a minute and thought "wait...he's black...and he's playing a white looking god." Behind all our anti-discrimination policies is the implicit assumption that race doesn't affect someone's ability to do a job. If the job is to portray a white guy in a movie, then the guy doing the casting can select white guys without being a racist.

But don't get me wrong, these racist guys are definitely bad news.

#22 SOAP

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 06:10 AM

But the Council of Conservative Citizens who first brought up the boycott ARE raci--Oh forget it. Everyone watch this youtube video instead of reading another one of my long, boring rants:


Oh yeah, I know. SteveT even said in his first post that the people who are protesting this are racist. My "too-PC" charge is really levelled against the guys who cast Samuel L. Jackson in the first place. No one stepped back for a minute and thought "wait...he's black...and he's playing a white looking god." Behind all our anti-discrimination policies is the implicit assumption that race doesn't affect someone's ability to do a job. If the job is to portray a white guy in a movie, then the guy doing the casting can select white guys without being a racist.

But don't get me wrong, these racist guys are definitely bad news.


But isn't thinking that technically racist? If we were truly racially blind then it wouldn't matter either way and the color of his skin wouldn't have entered anyone's thoughts at all. He'd just be a male actor playing a male role. Of course we're not that racially blind but still.

And the actor's name is Idris Elba, btw.

Edited by SOAP, 31 December 2010 - 06:15 AM.


#23 Egann

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 10:20 AM


But the Council of Conservative Citizens who first brought up the boycott ARE raci--Oh forget it. Everyone watch this youtube video instead of reading another one of my long, boring rants:


Oh yeah, I know. SteveT even said in his first post that the people who are protesting this are racist. My "too-PC" charge is really levelled against the guys who cast Samuel L. Jackson in the first place. No one stepped back for a minute and thought "wait...he's black...and he's playing a white looking god." Behind all our anti-discrimination policies is the implicit assumption that race doesn't affect someone's ability to do a job. If the job is to portray a white guy in a movie, then the guy doing the casting can select white guys without being a racist.

But don't get me wrong, these racist guys are definitely bad news.


But isn't thinking that technically racist? If we were truly racially blind then it wouldn't matter either way and the color of his skin wouldn't have entered anyone's thoughts at all. He'd just be a male actor playing a male role. Of course we're not that racially blind but still.

And the actor's name is Idris Elba, btw.


...Yes and no. Literature and film are not and never will be color blind, nor should they be. Race is a result of descent, which usually parallels a cultural gap of some nature. Assigning roles partially based on race in cinema isn't being racist; it's effective communication with the audience about what culture which characters belong to. I mean, I can imagine a movie of Langston Hughes' Invisible Man, but can you see Brad Pitt playing the lead part? No. Is it because he's a bad actor?...No, it's because race and culture is key for the part and seeing someone the audience KNOWS belongs to another descent is very jarring and lowers suspension of disbelief.

Take another example. Finding Forrester. It's a key part of the movie's conflict that Jamal can't succeed in school too much and still be accepted in his Black subculture; success in school is seen as "being white." Do basketball, not poetry. Now here's the kicker; communicating that would have been impossible had casting not reflected race as well as acting skills. Had the cast been a random assignment, the story would have made no sense.

I don't think the ideal of being racially blind and seeing only abilities is always true. Part of the concern with cinema is that race (and it's paralleling cultural membership) is easy to see and it WILL confuse the viewer to see mismatches, so an actor of the wrong race literally has a harder part to act to still pull the part off. A MUCH harder part to act; depending on the audience, it may be completely impossible.

Am I being racist? No. It's just as hard for a white actor to play an anachronistic black figure as for the other way around. Some roles (where race is of secondary importance to a character's culture) may be interchangeable, and some audiences may be able to tolerate the switching. There is no iron rule that there can't be any switching parts, just that it MAY cause problems to do it carelessly.

#24 Oberon Storm

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 10:22 AM

I sense that someone might be wondering why the heck I brought Obama into a thread on comic books...

OK, forget Obama himself. My point is this: there seems (at least to me) to be a prevalent attitude in America that you can't criticize anyone who's black (or possibly other minority), because to do so is racist. You can think that Obama is the devil without it having to do with his race. Just look up "long legged mack daddy" on YouTube to see a black guy who hates Obama. Now, the analogy isn't perfect, because we're all saying that it's stupid to cast Samuel L. Jackson as Heimdal since he's black. But I sense that the same uber-PC mindset is behind this. And that mindset is actually quite harmful. Falsely accusing people of being racist effectively curtails free speech. I'm all for fighting racism. But when racism isn't an issue, we shouldn't shut people up under the pretense of fighting racists.

Samuel L. Jackson was cast as Nick Fury. Nobody really cared because Marvel's Ultimate continuity portrays Fury as black. The Ultimate Fury was actually modeled after Jackson. Just pointing out. Also, just to point out, Kevin Freige, the head of Marvel Studios, and/or Joe Quesada, the editor in chief of Marvel have said, or at least hinted, that the films are supposed to be based off the Ultimate continuity more than anything else. I don't know if Heimdal is portrayed as white, black, or even at all in the Ultimate line, but realizing that makes the fact the main continuity's Heimdal is white matter just that much less than before.

Addressing your point though, I would disagree that there is any pervasive idea at all that criticizing blacks is racist. If that was the case then everyone, Republican or Democrat, that has criticized Michael Steele would have been charged with racism. Maybe there were a few blog posts or even editorial articles that did do that, and I just never saw them. It never became a big issue. That's because by and large all of his criticism has been about some perceived poor judgement he has shown and perceived bad decisions he has made in his position as chairman of the RNC.

Eggan brought up an article in which the author claimed some of Sarah Palin's comments had racist undertones. This was in response to my claim no one has actually said that criticizing Obama is inherently racist because he is black. In that same article, the author points out that for a very large number of Americans, when they think "terrorist" they think Muslim, Arab, or at the very least non-white. When Palin makes claims that Obama "pals" around with terrorists, deliberately or not, I have my suspicions, she is setting him up as something "other". When these same Americans think "other" they think non-white. It doesn't help at all when she starts telling people about how he doesn't think of America like they do. On top of that again she is one of the figureheads of a movement that has people almost routinely show up with depictions of Obama as a monkey or witch doctor. So yeah, I would say there some definite racist undertones to a lot of the criticism of Obama.

This is neither here nor there when it comes to the casting of this one character. I wasn't even bothered by the fact that not one of the characters in The Last Airbender we Japanese. I do not think it neccessarily follows that any character from any anime program has to be portrayed by a Japanese individual. I'm pretty sure some movies have used Chinese people to play Japanese people and vice versa anyway.

I pretty much agree with the song SOAP posted. Everyone has their predjudices, but in light of these facts this controversy over the casting of one character is just silly. Silly to the point of stupid. Even if he was cast to meet the black quota for the movie I don't see how it hurts or helps anything. It's a non-issue.

#25 Raien

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 11:01 AM

I don't know if Heimdal is portrayed as white, black, or even at all in the Ultimate line, but realizing that makes the fact the main continuity's Heimdal is white matter just that much less than before.


Asgard (and the Asgardians by extension) never actually appeared in the Ultimate universe until November 2010, when Marvel began publishing the Ultimate Thor mini-series. With Issue 2 of that series in front of me, I can confirm that Ultimate Heimdall is white. Not that it matters much, since he dies almost as soon as he appears for the first time.

Edited by Raien, 31 December 2010 - 11:02 AM.


#26 SteveT

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 02:15 PM

But isn't thinking that technically racist? If we were truly racially blind then it wouldn't matter either way and the color of his skin wouldn't have entered anyone's thoughts at all. He'd just be a male actor playing a male role. Of course we're not that racially blind but still.


By that logic, why not cast a female and a male role, because to specify the gender of an actor is sexist? Color blind is a great ideal from a political standpoint. The law should look at everyone equally. That doesn't change the fact that different races exist, and they are not interchangeable in certain acting roles. I think the film industry is one that has a right to specify the race of its employees. Whereas people of different races should all have equal opportunity for careers in medicine because there's nothing about a given race that makes them better at, for example, irradiating tumors than another. However, a white person is always going to be better at looking like a white person, which is part of the job description when it comes to playing the role of a white person. That's not racist; that's just reality. Unless racism now means "The ability to approximate the genetic heritage of a given person via ocular examination."

I pretty much agree with the song SOAP posted. Everyone has their predjudices, but in light of these facts this controversy over the casting of one character is just silly. Silly to the point of stupid. Even if he was cast to meet the black quota for the movie I don't see how it hurts or helps anything. It's a non-issue.


From my point of view, it's a purism thing. Like how casting Michael Keaton as Batman was a bad call, or when Peter Jackson cut the Scouring of the Shire, or whether Han shot first.

Edited by SteveT, 31 December 2010 - 02:16 PM.


#27 Oberon Storm

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 04:13 PM

Now I'm going to have to argue with you about Michael Keaton.

#28 SOAP

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 04:25 PM

...Yes and no. Literature and film are not and never will be color blind, nor should they be. Race is a result of descent, which usually parallels a cultural gap of some nature. Assigning roles partially based on race in cinema isn't being racist; it's effective communication with the audience about what culture which characters belong to. I mean, I can imagine a movie of Langston Hughes' Invisible Man, but can you see Brad Pitt playing the lead part? No. Is it because he's a bad actor?...No, it's because race and culture is key for the part and seeing someone the audience KNOWS belongs to another descent is very jarring and lowers suspension of disbelief.

Take another example. Finding Forrester. It's a key part of the movie's conflict that Jamal can't succeed in school too much and still be accepted in his Black subculture; success in school is seen as "being white." Do basketball, not poetry. Now here's the kicker; communicating that would have been impossible had casting not reflected race as well as acting skills. Had the cast been a random assignment, the story would have made no sense.

I don't think the ideal of being racially blind and seeing only abilities is always true. Part of the concern with cinema is that race (and it's paralleling cultural membership) is easy to see and it WILL confuse the viewer to see mismatches, so an actor of the wrong race literally has a harder part to act to still pull the part off. A MUCH harder part to act; depending on the audience, it may be completely impossible.

Am I being racist? No. It's just as hard for a white actor to play an anachronistic black figure as for the other way around. Some roles (where race is of secondary importance to a character's culture) may be interchangeable, and some audiences may be able to tolerate the switching. There is no iron rule that there can't be any switching parts, just that it MAY cause problems to do it carelessly.


In my opinion, films (and literature) are an artistic expression. It may not always be GOOD art, but art nonetheless with a message to convey. Thus how a movie is cast will reflect that. A movie like Finding Forrester with a specific message about black struggles would require a black actor. And, as had been brought up a million times before, if this Thor movie were a more serious piece on actual Norse mythology, then casting convincing Scandinavians as Norse gods would be a requisite too without being the least bit racist. Whereas a more modern take targeted towards a younger, more liberal and culturally diverse audience, it would be the exact opposite.



But isn't thinking that technically racist? If we were truly racially blind then it wouldn't matter either way and the color of his skin wouldn't have entered anyone's thoughts at all. He'd just be a male actor playing a male role. Of course we're not that racially blind but still.


By that logic, why not cast a female and a male role, because to specify the gender of an actor is sexist?

Oh, you mean like how Katee Sackhoff and Grace Park played Starbuck and Boomer respectively in the reimagined Battlestar Galactica? Heck Grace Park is an asian woman playing a role that previously a black man's role. Of course people called foul, especially the original Starbuck no less. :rolleyes:

Color blind is a great ideal from a political standpoint. The law should look at everyone equally. That doesn't change the fact that different races exist, and they are not interchangeable in certain acting roles. I think the film industry is one that has a right to specify the race of its employees.


Yeah but by that same token they also have the right NOT to specify race (or gender) if they so choose. It's their artistic license to do so. If people don't like it, they don't have to watch it.

My bottom line:

Casting people according by their race when targeting a specfic race in your audience in your core message=NOT RACIST
Casting people with little to no regard to race when targeting a more diverse audience=NOT RACIST
Audiences getting offended or confused when an actor's race jars with the movie's message=NOT RACIST
Audiences getting offended or confused when an actor's race jars with some preconceived notion while COMPLETELY missing the film's message=Well's maybe not racist but even so that's their freedom of speech and I'll defend to the death their right to be so
Audiences getting offended or confused when an actor's race jars with some preconceived notion while COMPLETELY missing the film's message and trying to force the government's hand to ban the film based on an actor's race offending them=Definately racist not to mention squashing the freedom of speech of the movie's creative team

So long as no one's inciting anything harmful or illegal, people have the right to be as racist and ignorant as they want but the minute they start demanding special treatment for their beliefs and demand all others be censored that's when it goes too far.

Edit: Actually strike that last comment as it thankfully hasn't THAT far.... yet. But if the CofCC does try to ban the movie then yes, that's too far.

Edited by SOAP, 31 December 2010 - 04:58 PM.





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