5 replies to this topic

[SOAP]

In the past I've stated that I believe the series is composed separate though loosely connected story arcs that--for all intents and purposes--I treat as seperate continuities in their own right. That is unless otherwise proven wrong by future games. What that DOESN'T mean, to clear up any confusion, is that I only accept certain games as canon and others not. They're all canon, except the CD-i games, which goes without saying. Nor does it mean I don't think there's no overall connections at all, or that any connections can't be made in the future. I believe the games are tied mostly by spiritual connections not necessarily chronological ones. Aside from direct sequels, most chronological connections are fan-made even if they seem commonly accepted. And I'm entirely confident that more solid chronological connections can be made in future games but as the series stands now, it really does seem like there's more than one continuity.

Basically I believe in three timelines overall. One forked although internally consistent with itself, while the other two are linear with some inconsitencies that can be mostly handwaved.

The first timeline I regard as the Miyamoto Timeline. I disagree with the notion that Miyamoto cares nothing about the timeline or that he doesn't know what he's talking about. As per 1999, this what the timeline was before Eiji Anoma too the helm:

OoT-->ALttP/LA-->LoZ/AoL

There's some inconsistencies with OoT not matching up perfectly with ALttP's backstory and Ganon being dead at the end of ALttP but ALttP is before Loz because it's about the ancestors of LoZ's Link and Zelda and OoT is about Ganondorf's first rise and fall and his first tranformation from a human thief to the Demon King he's known as in the 2D games. Also, the creators have also mentioned that the town names in AoL are supposed to refer to Sages of OoT. So basically a somewhat consitent timeline.

Then there's Eiji Anoma Timeline.

OoT-->(adult)-->Flood-->TWW/PH-->ST
OoT(child)/MM-->TP

Everything before OoT is still canon, though their placement along with everything else post OoT has yet to be touched on. OoT was used to support a timeline split, which would have been a perfect opprtunity to retcon in a new timeline involving TWW without destroying the old timeline. But then came along TP which does nothing support that the old games have anything to with Eiji's new Timeline. You could argue that ALttP could fit after TP since the Master Sword being in a bunch of ruins that once was the Temple of Time within a heavily wooded area shows a transition between the Mastersword being in the Temple of time at the end of OoT and within Lost Woods in the begining of ALttP. That may be so, but TP itself does an even worse job of being a prequel to ALttP. Ganon's dead at the end the full Triforce is never in his possession. Compared to that, the Sacred Grove scene just seems like a thematic connection, nothing more. You might as well say the Twilight Realm is the Sacred Realm since when you first enter it and look back, the gateway you you just traveled through looks like it was literally ripped from ALttP's artwork.

For now, I consider TP "spiritual prequel" since if I was forced to chose where ALttP could fit, there's no other place I'd put it. Certianly not after TWW. St clearly shows Old Hyrule is gone for good and ALttP is clearly Old Hyrule. What bugs me though is what to with LoZ/AoL. TP introduces a totally different set of Sages than the ones in OoT. We never learn their names and since the events of OoT's adult future never happen, it seems unlikely they're the same ones from OoT. If so, how could the towns be named after the Sages in OoT if they never became Sages in the Child Timeline. If I had to place the LoZ games anywhere, I'd be more inclined to place it along with TWW's end of the timeline split because that's the one where the OoT Sages are revered. Anyways, only a minor nitpick since it's possible the ones in TP share the same names as their OoT counterparts, or this is form they took since Ganon didn't block them from acheiving Sagehood like he did in OoT. *shrug*

Next is the Four Sword Games.

TMC-->FS/FSA

Which deal with the Light Force and Vaati instead of the Triforce and Ganon. Numerous allusions are made to both the old and new timelines but none give any chronological reference nor do the help bridge the two timeline. In FSA Ganon upsurps Vaati's title as the Big Bad and the Triforce is alluded to at the end, making it seem like the Four Sword games proceed even OoT despite featuring Ganon as a villain. The creators do say they place the Four Sword games rather early in the timeline. On the other hand, if you seperate the Old and New Timeline, you could argue that the Four Sword games assume OoT's former posistion as ALttP's prequel. However, until stronger evidence can be found, I treat these connections as purely spiritual.

Lastly I have the Oracle games, which I have no idea where to place. Most people place it between ALttP and LoZ which helps bridge the gap somewhat, but in OoS, the soldiers that were suppose to escort Din refer to themselves as Hylians, which are a dead race except within the Royal Family by the time of ALttP. Chronoloically that should place the Oracle games sometime after OoT or TP but well before ALttP. I suppose the writers meant to say Hyrulean, which would be their nationality instead of ethnicity.

All in all my timeline looks more like this:

 timeline.png   103.2K   24 downloads

As you can see, the chronological connections are pretty straight forward, whereas spiritual connections are all over the map. I think the latter is the source of all confusion in timeline theorizing which is why I stick to connections that are purely chronological. If no such connection exist between two games, then they exist in separate, albeit just as canonical, timelines.

Edit: Come to think of it, OoX would be the perfect bridge between the 3D and 2D games if it comes between TP and ALttP. It fits with Ganondorf's deleted extended speech about returning someday which could have been an allusion to Twinrova ressurecting him in OoX. If only it was more clear what happened to the Triforce at the end of TP. Link and Zelda still have their peices but Ganon's just sorta fades away. If OoX is to be believed perhaps Link and Zelda obtain Ganon's TOP offscreen sometime between just after the battle with Ganondorf and the scene at arbiter's grounds.

Edited by SOAP, 24 November 2010 - 10:13 PM.

[Fin]

Note: I slept between writing the first and last parts of this post and in general I was just putting down thoughts as they came into my head, so apologies for any sloppiness in my writing.


I've stopped trying to see the timeline as a whole and have just started focussing on each game as an individual story, albeit stories that often make use of chronological connections to deepen their themes. Sort of a midpoint between the literal legend and timeline views, I guess.

This means that in general I agree with the story arcs you put down, though I tend to separate them into more bite-sized chunks. For example, for Twilight Princess I'd drop the DS games, which have no relevance to TP's story, and add LttP, which I think does. One of the prominent themes of the series in general is destiny, but I think TP takes this theme to a broader scale. Whereas before we had destiny in the form of specific prophecies, TP makes broader statements about chosen ones and Ganon's final statement about the ongoing conflict between light and dark that applies to the timeline as a whole. I think TP uses references to LttP, OoT, MM, and WW to reinforce this theme in various ways.

The parallel between TP and WW, particularly in the alternating character arcs of Ganondorf, sets up a contrast between the two themes. The Wind Waker was about defying destiny and breaking the eternal cycle of the Triforce conflict, whereas Twilight Princess was about embracing destiny and starting the cycle. In The Wind Waker Ganondorf represents the perils of nostalgia, whereas in Twilight Princess his antagonistic role is implied to be a necessary part of Hyrule's destiny and prosperity.

OoT and MM tie into this theme through the Hero's Shade/Legendary Hero character (sorry, MPS ). Here we see a figure renowned as a hero, yet he feels unfulfilled. I think this ties into how the Hero of Time prophecy was averted, which screwed with destiny somewhat. Both The Hero of Winds and TP Link are compared to the Hero of Time. The point of the comparison with WW Link was for him to reject the association and become a new kind of hero, whereas TP Link is about fulfilling the role the Hero of Time never had a chance to in this timeline.

The transition of the Master Sword from the Temple of Time to the Lost Woods foreshadows A Link to the Past, and I think this is meant as more than a simple easter egg. Ganon's death speech and TP's general implication that the gods allowed Ganon to rise to power for the greater good of Hyrule leads me to view this justification for the Triforce-bearer conflict over the entire timeline. Balance is another major theme of TP, and I think we're meant to understand that the forces of darkness are as important for Hyrule's prosperity as the forces of light. The references to LttP ask us to widen our view of this beyond TP's storyline.

As for the Triforce-related plothole that TP to LttP brings up, I tend to think that the gods simply restored the Triforce to the Sacred Realm. It's heavily implied that they had a hand in the Triforce-bearers getting their pieces in the first place, so it doesn't strike me as too out of line to assume they were at least responsible for Ganon's loss of the Triforce at the end. It gets a bit fanwanky to conclude that the pieces of Courage and Wisdom were sent back too, but fuck it.

Edited by Finbarr, 25 November 2010 - 12:51 PM.

[ganonlord6000]

The transition of the Master Sword from the Temple of Time to the Lost Woods foreshadows A Link to the Past, and I think this is meant as more than a simple easter egg. Ganon's death speech and TP's general implication that the gods allowed Ganon to rise to power for the greater good of Hyrule leads me to view this justification for the Triforce-bearer conflict over the entire timeline. Balance is another major theme of TP, and I think we're meant to understand that the forces of darkness are as important for Hyrule's prosperity as the forces of light. The references to LttP ask us to widen our view of this beyond TP's storyline.

I agree with you here. It is much better to place ALTTP after TP than in a timeline when the MS's existance is questionable at best. It definitly seems to set the stage for the classic games.

As for the Triforce-related plothole that TP to LttP brings up, I tend to think that the gods simply restored the Triforce to the Sacred Realm. It's heavily implied that they had a hand in the Triforce-bearers getting their pieces in the first place, so it doesn't strike me as too out of line to assume they were at least responsible for Ganon's loss of the Triforce at the end. It gets a bit fanwanky to conclude that the pieces of Courage and Wisdom were sent back too, but fuck it.

I doubt the goddesses had a hand in the ToP's disappearance at the end. I think that had to do with the fact that the Triforce couldn't save Ganon this time since the MS was used, which, I beleive, was made to repel the Triforce if it fell into evil hands (unless SS retcons this).

What bugs me though is what to with LoZ/AoL. TP introduces a totally different set of Sages than the ones in OoT. We never learn their names and since the events of OoT's adult future never happen, it seems unlikely they're the same ones from OoT. If so, how could the towns be named after the Sages in OoT if they never became Sages in the Child Timeline.

I chalk this up as old intent from when OOT was released that was retconed along with most of the OOT intent after TWW came out. It is best to place LOZ/AOL with ALTTP. One problem I've noticed with placing LOZ after ST is where the Triforce came from since the Triforce reemerging after TWW would go against what the King wished for, wouldn't it?

you could argue that the Four Sword games assume OoT's former posistion as ALttP's prequel. However, until stronger evidence can be found, I treat these connections as purely spiritual.

Since FSA was gonig to take up that position at one point, I'd say the ALTTP connections in FSA are more than spritual, or are just leftovers.

Edit: Come to think of it, OoX would be the perfect bridge between the 3D and 2D games if it comes between TP and ALttP. It fits with Ganondorf's deleted extended speech about returning someday which could have been an allusion to Twinrova ressurecting him in OoX. If only it was more clear what happened to the Triforce at the end of TP. Link and Zelda still have their peices but Ganon's just sorta fades away. If OoX is to be believed perhaps Link and Zelda obtain Ganon's TOP offscreen sometime between just after the battle with Ganondorf and the scene at arbiter's grounds.

That's not a bad idea. I think TP definitly needs a sequel to tie up loose ends like this, though. What happened to the story in the second half of TP is something I doubt I'll ever know.

[Fin]

I doubt the goddesses had a hand in the ToP's disappearance at the end. I think that had to do with the fact that the Triforce couldn't save Ganon this time since the MS was used, which, I beleive, was made to repel the Triforce if it fell into evil hands (unless SS retcons this).

One thing that I think is important about that scene is the order the events occur. He loses the Triforce, then he dies. I don't think it was a case that the Triforce couldn't save him now. I think it was the only thing keeping him alive. When he lost it, he had to rely on Zant (and we see where that got him).

Arguably he loses the Triforce because of the long fricken holy sword sticking in his chest, but the Master Sword is just a demon-repelling sword that happens to have been made to protect the Triforce. The idea that it can repel the Triforce specifically was an invention by NoA. The sword causing Ganon to lose the Triforce is an appealing thought, but I don't think it's ever been suggested that it can do that, and given that the Triforce is acting unusually throughout TP, and this unusual behaviour is implied to be the result of divine intervention, I prefer to go with that.


Also, since I feel bad about not quite addressing SOAP's post

What bugs me though is what to with LoZ/AoL. TP introduces a totally different set of Sages than the ones in OoT. We never learn their names and since the events of OoT's adult future never happen, it seems unlikely they're the same ones from OoT. If so, how could the towns be named after the Sages in OoT if they never became Sages in the Child Timeline. If I had to place the LoZ games anywhere, I'd be more inclined to place it along with TWW's end of the timeline split because that's the one where the OoT Sages are revered. Anyways, only a minor nitpick since it's possible the ones in TP share the same names as their OoT counterparts, or this is form they took since Ganon didn't block them from acheiving Sagehood like he did in OoT. *shrug*

One thing worth remembering is that the Sage/town thing was only important because OoT made it so. Up to 1998 AoL got along fine without this origin story, so I think it's more valuable to view the OoT/AoL connection in how it relates to OoT, not AoL. Until we get a game that gives us reason to rethink AoL's placement in the chronology I'm happy to leave it near LttP and LoZ. I don't really regard the sleeping Zelda tale with much importance any more either, unless I'm dealing specifically with AoL. I especially think bringing back the old Ganon/Triforce conflict into a post-WW world goes against the spirit of WW's ending.

In other words, what ganonlord said.

Which deal with the Light Force and Vaati instead of the Triforce and Ganon. Numerous allusions are made to both the old and new timelines but none give any chronological reference nor do the help bridge the two timeline. In FSA Ganon upsurps Vaati's title as the Big Bad and the Triforce is alluded to at the end, making it seem like the Four Sword games proceed even OoT despite featuring Ganon as a villain. The creators do say they place the Four Sword games rather early in the timeline. On the other hand, if you seperate the Old and New Timeline, you could argue that the Four Sword games assume OoT's former posistion as ALttP's prequel. However, until stronger evidence can be found, I treat these connections as purely spiritual.

FSA's remaining connections to LttP still give that connection some weight, in my opinion. I tend to think the Trident origin is meaningless without those other games. And I still like to see MC as an origin story for Link. These games connections to the main series have only really been one-way though, and I'm not a big fan of the FS plots, so mostly I think meh, and I'm happy to separate them like you do. I do still like MC though.

Lastly I have the Oracle games, which I have no idea where to place. Most people place it between ALttP and LoZ which helps bridge the gap somewhat, but in OoS, the soldiers that were suppose to escort Din refer to themselves as Hylians, which are a dead race except within the Royal Family by the time of ALttP. Chronoloically that should place the Oracle games sometime after OoT or TP but well before ALttP. I suppose the writers meant to say Hyrulean, which would be their nationality instead of ethnicity.

That was a translation error.

でもそれは 世をあざむく　かりのすがた 大きな　こえでは　いえませんが じつは　われらは ハイラルのきしなのです
The thing is, that’s just an alias we’re using to fool the world. I can’t say it very loud, but we’re actually knights of Hyrule.
That's just our guise. I can't say it too loud, but we're really Hylian Knights.

I prefer to place OoX sometime after AoL. The way the Triforce mark on Link's hand acts fits the earlier mythology better, and while Ganon's minions would obviously like to resurrect him after LttP as well, it was a specific plot thread in AoL, so I see this as OoX's way of resolving that.

Edit: Come to think of it, OoX would be the perfect bridge between the 3D and 2D games if it comes between TP and ALttP. It fits with Ganondorf's deleted extended speech about returning someday which could have been an allusion to Twinrova ressurecting him in OoX. If only it was more clear what happened to the Triforce at the end of TP. Link and Zelda still have their peices but Ganon's just sorta fades away. If OoX is to be believed perhaps Link and Zelda obtain Ganon's TOP offscreen sometime between just after the battle with Ganondorf and the scene at arbiter's grounds.

It's a neat idea, but I think the connections between OoX and the NES games are stronger. I think Ganon's death speech in TP is meant to refer to the series as a whole, not any specific game.

[SOAP]

First of all, Finbarr I thought your first post was really well written even if you fell asleep halfway through. Some minor nitpicks I have are that I tried connecting the Oracle games to TP, not the DS games (which is a moot point because I wasn't serious about connecting Oracles to TP either) and also I never said any of the spiritual connections are simply easter eggs. I don't equate the two. By spiritual connection I mean two games in the same series that could be regarded as being connected, but not in a strictly chronological sense. Something more along the lines of the Literal Legends Theory, where both stories are equally valid but chronology isn't a big emphasis, like in real world myths. As an example, what I mean by spiritual connections is kinda like how Systemshock and Bioshock are spiritual connections, are better yet how Bioshock and Bioshock 2 are chronologically connected but Bioshock Unlimited is spiritually connected to the events in Rapture. Perhaps I was a bit misleading in my initial post. Spiritual Connections shouldn't be dismissed like easter eggs are. I just don't think they should be confused with chronological connections. Both are equally significant but tie the series together in fundamentally different ways.

Anyways thanks for your input and after rethinking things I think I'll adjust my timeline a bit:

 timeline2.png   86.84K   31 downloads

I can see the series broken into three main story arcs, each of which can be broken down even further. I can see TP, as you say, leading from OoT's story arc to the NES games by taking the series into a "Embracing the Cycles of Destiny" direction with the Oracle games resolving leftover plotlines from AoL. In a way it ends up looking like a conventional split timeline anyways, except the FS games stick out now. For now, I see FSA as an alternative origin story for Ganon to OoT/TP making it a spiritual prelude to ALttP. Either that or FS-FSA can seperated from TMC and placed between ALttP and LoZ to explain how Ganon came back alive.

Edit: I consider TMC a spiritual prequel to the whole series because of the origin of Link's hat thing and all. But chronologically speaking it only has to deal with FS/FSA.

Edited by SOAP, 26 November 2010 - 09:56 PM.

[Fin]

Ohh, I think I see what you mean now. And looking back over your initial post I don't think you explained it badly there either, I just misunderstood. I'm really not sure where I got the easter egg thing from. Sorry about that.

Some minor nitpicks I have are that I tried connecting the Oracle games to TP, not the DS games (which is a moot point because I wasn't serious about connecting Oracles to TP either)

Another misunderstanding. I mentioned the DS games because I was talking about your split timeline story arc, which accounts for OoT, MM, WW, TP, PH, and ST. I just wanted to say that I don't even bother using that story arc, since no single game there requires that I play all six of them to fully understand the story. I brought up TP since it probably comes closest to having relevant links to the whole story arc, with its ties to OoT, MM, and WW.

Maybe if instead of using this thread as a launchpad for me to wank about my own timeline ideas I'd engaged more directly with your post none of these misunderstandings would have come up. I fail talk good.

By spiritual connection I mean two games in the same series that could be regarded as being connected, but not in a strictly chronological sense. Something more along the lines of the Literal Legends Theory, where both stories are equally valid but chronology isn't a big emphasis, like in real world myths.

I guess I sort of see most of the connections I outlined as spiritual or thematic connections first and foremost, chronological connections second, since I'm more concerned with how they interact with the themes of whichever game I'm focussing on. I didn't really make too much distinction between chronological and spiritual connections in my head though, but I suppose in my TP example I'd put WW, and LttP on the spiritual side. It doesn't really matter when they happen in relation to TP, since WW and TP don't technically interact chronologically, and LttP just represents all the old games as the generic future (Cycles of Destiny, to steal your phrase). OoT, on the other hand, specifically sets things in motion for TP to occur, so the chronological link is probably more relevant than the spiritual.

Edit: I consider TMC a spiritual prequel to the whole series because of the origin of Link's hat thing and all. But chronologically speaking it only has to deal with FS/FSA.

This is absolute awesome. I may have to steal it for my own purposes. I'll finally have a way to easily group MC primarily with the games it directly connects to, while acknowledging how it relates to the series as a whole.

Edited by Finbarr, 27 November 2010 - 02:15 AM.