28 replies to this topic

[ganonlord6000]

I came up with a new theory regarding Ganon in LOZ. Basically, in FSA, we meet a Ganon who was sealed in the FS at the end. Many have assumed that this is the same Ganon from ALTTP. While I'm not discrediting that idea, what if he is the Ganon from LOZ instead of the Ganon in ALTTP? It would allow both origins stories for Ganon to work out. Anyway, after FSA, the IW occurs when another Ganondorf enters the SR and becomes the next Ganon when he touches the Triforce. This is the Ganon who dies in ALTTP. After ALTTP, the seal on FSA Ganon weakens due to the fact that he has been sealed for a while (the seal weakened when Vaati was sealed within it, so this isn't too far fetched)and this Ganon steals the ToP, which leads to LOZ when this Ganon dies.

So, how is this theory? It is still a work-in-progress, but is the general idea any good?

[Fin]

It's alright, but it kind of diminishes the importance FSA places on the Trident. Of course, none of the other games focussed on it at all, so nothing outright contradicts your theory, and as you said it solves the problem of LttP Ganon first becoming a demon king when he takes the Triforce.

For my part I'm happy to live with that particular plothole though.

[MikePetersSucks]

Sure, why not?

[ganonlord6000]

It's alright, but it kind of diminishes the importance FSA places on the Trident. Of course, none of the other games focussed on it at all, so nothing outright contradicts your theory, and as you said it solves the problem of LttP Ganon first becoming a demon king when he takes the Triforce.

For my part I'm happy to live with that particular plothole though.

Wouldn't that also solve how Ganon was alive in LOZ? That's the main idea of this theory. The only problem with it that I just caught is that this would mean that two Ganons are alive at the same time, but wouldn't that only be a problem if both of them were active at the same time? It isn't a problem to me.

[Fin]

I guess it solves that as well, but Ganon's deaths don't bug me too much. AoL and OoX established two separate ways in which he can be resurrected, FSA established that he can simply reincarnate, and KnS suggests that he can restore himself. Your solution is elegant, but I don't find it necessary.

Edited by Finbarr, 21 October 2010 - 10:29 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

It's also not that new of an idea, actually.

[Showsni]

I've got LoZ Ganon as being the asme as FSA Ganon in my timeline too, so I definitely think it can work; there's just some unexplained event where he manages to get free of the sword somehow.
I have:

1st Ganon
Origin story: IW
Sealed: IW
Death: ALttP
(Resurrection + Death: KnS)

2nd Ganon
Origin Story: FSA
Sealed: FSA
Death: LoZ
(Resurrection in AoL gameovers, non canon)

3rd Ganon
Orgin Story: OoT
Sealed: OoT
Death: TWW

(With TP presumably being the 3rd one as well after a split)

Of course, that does require looking at the line in ALttP about this being the birth of the demon king Ganon as a more figurative thing meant to apply to all of them rather than that specific one, as otherwise its clearly a link between the ALttP and LoZ ones.

[SOAP]

I came up with a new theory regarding Ganon in LOZ. Basically, in FSA, we meet a Ganon who was sealed in the FS at the end. Many have assumed that this is the same Ganon from ALTTP. While I'm not discrediting that idea, what if he is the Ganon from LOZ instead of the Ganon in ALTTP? It would allow both origins stories for Ganon to work out. Anyway, after FSA, the IW occurs when another Ganondorf enters the SR and becomes the next Ganon when he touches the Triforce. This is the Ganon who dies in ALTTP. After ALTTP, the seal on FSA Ganon weakens due to the fact that he has been sealed for a while (the seal weakened when Vaati was sealed within it, so this isn't too far fetched)and this Ganon steals the ToP, which leads to LOZ when this Ganon dies.

So, how is this theory? It is still a work-in-progress, but is the general idea any good?

I'm not completely against FSA Ganon being the same one from LoZ. But the minute you put FSA before ALttP, potentially causing two Ganons to exist simultaneously during ALttP, you start hurting my head. It would be okay however, if you place FSA after ALttP. Heck, that'd clear up some decrepencies about how Ganon goes from being dead in ALttP to being alive and causing havoc in Hyrule just prior to LoZ.

[ganonlord6000]

I came up with a new theory regarding Ganon in LOZ. Basically, in FSA, we meet a Ganon who was sealed in the FS at the end. Many have assumed that this is the same Ganon from ALTTP. While I'm not discrediting that idea, what if he is the Ganon from LOZ instead of the Ganon in ALTTP? It would allow both origins stories for Ganon to work out. Anyway, after FSA, the IW occurs when another Ganondorf enters the SR and becomes the next Ganon when he touches the Triforce. This is the Ganon who dies in ALTTP. After ALTTP, the seal on FSA Ganon weakens due to the fact that he has been sealed for a while (the seal weakened when Vaati was sealed within it, so this isn't too far fetched)and this Ganon steals the ToP, which leads to LOZ when this Ganon dies.

So, how is this theory? It is still a work-in-progress, but is the general idea any good?

I'm not completely against FSA Ganon being the same one from LoZ. But the minute you put FSA before ALttP, potentially causing two Ganons to exist simultaneously during ALttP, you start hurting my head. It would be okay however, if you place FSA after ALttP. Heck, that'd clear up some decrepencies about how Ganon goes from being dead in ALttP to being alive and causing havoc in Hyrule just prior to LoZ.

Would it matter if two Ganons were alive at the same time if only one was active while the other was trapped in the FS?

[MikePetersSucks]

Well, there's the whole transmigration of souls things that makes it sort of difficult.

[ganonlord6000]

Well, there's the whole transmigration of souls things that makes it sort of difficult.

Would you mind elaborating on that?

[MikePetersSucks]

If we go with the idea that Ganon(dorf) is reincarnating, two simultaneous Ganons doesn't work very well.

[ganonlord6000]

If we go with the idea that Ganon(dorf) is reincarnating, two simultaneous Ganons doesn't work very well.

I just noticed that problem myself. I wonder where the reincarnation idea first showed up, anyway?

[MikePetersSucks]

I just noticed that problem myself. I wonder where the reincarnation idea first showed up, anyway?

Common sense? The absolute absurdity of the descendant theory unless you invoke severe cases of inbreeding? General awareness of prophecy tropes? The lack of any details whatsoever of a Hyrulian afterlife almost necessarily leading to ideas about reincarnation?

[Volvagia_slayer]

I came up with a new theory regarding Ganon in LOZ. Basically, in FSA, we meet a Ganon who was sealed in the FS at the end. Many have assumed that this is the same Ganon from ALTTP. While I'm not discrediting that idea, what if he is the Ganon from LOZ instead of the Ganon in ALTTP? It would allow both origins stories for Ganon to work out. Anyway, after FSA, the IW occurs when another Ganondorf enters the SR and becomes the next Ganon when he touches the Triforce. This is the Ganon who dies in ALTTP. After ALTTP, the seal on FSA Ganon weakens due to the fact that he has been sealed for a while (the seal weakened when Vaati was sealed within it, so this isn't too far fetched)and this Ganon steals the ToP, which leads to LOZ when this Ganon dies.

So, how is this theory? It is still a work-in-progress, but is the general idea any good?

I'm not completely against FSA Ganon being the same one from LoZ. But the minute you put FSA before ALttP, potentially causing two Ganons to exist simultaneously during ALttP, you start hurting my head. It would be okay however, if you place FSA after ALttP. Heck, that'd clear up some decrepencies about how Ganon goes from being dead in ALttP to being alive and causing havoc in Hyrule just prior to LoZ.

Would it matter if two Ganons were alive at the same time if only one was active while the other was trapped in the FS?

No, it likely wouldn't matter at all. After all, there were two Zeldas alive simultaneously in LoZ and AoL, so there's nothing that makes it impossible for there to be two Ganons at the same time during ALttP.

As has already been touched on, the only thing that kind of gets in the way of your theory is the Trident. It was very important to FSA Ganon, and ALttP Ganon is the only other one who wielded a Trident besides OoX Ganon. Furthermore, it was implied in-game that the Trident was responsible for FSA Ganondorf's transformation into Ganon, but LoZ Ganon was already Ganon without the Trident (or the Triforce of Power for that matter... he was Ganon before he ever stole that portion of the Triforce). So while it's not impossible, it would require the Trident transformation to be permanent despite him losing the Trident in between FSA and LoZ.

[MikePetersSucks]

No, it likely wouldn't matter at all. After all, there were two Zeldas alive simultaneously in LoZ and AoL, so there's nothing that makes it impossible for there to be two Ganons at the same time during ALttP.

To be fair, one of the Zeldas wasn't a proper one, and just held the name in memory of the other.

[Volvagia_slayer]

^True, but this Zelda that wasn't the "true" Zelda was the one holding onto the Triforce of Wisdom at the time before she was kidnapped. So does the fact that she was only named Zelda because of the decree devalue her legitimacy? Can only the "true" Zelda wield the Triforce of Wisdom? Because if so, then we did have two "true" Zeldas during LoZ.

This could again be explained away like you said earlier with the fact that only one Ganon would be active at a time... At the time of LoZ only one Zelda was active. However, that may mean that LoZ Zelda had to be inactive during AoL for that to work out. But it's entirely possible that LoZ Zelda could have died in between LoZ and AoL or simply lost her legitimacy when the original "true" Zelda woke up again. Neither of those would work against ganonlord's theory as far as I can tell.

[ganonlord6000]

As has already been touched on, the only thing that kind of gets in the way of your theory is the Trident. It was very important to FSA Ganon, and ALttP Ganon is the only other one who wielded a Trident besides OoX Ganon. Furthermore, it was implied in-game that the Trident was responsible for FSA Ganondorf's transformation into Ganon, but LoZ Ganon was already Ganon without the Trident (or the Triforce of Power for that matter... he was Ganon before he ever stole that portion of the Triforce). So while it's not impossible, it would require the Trident transformation to be permanent despite him losing the Trident in between FSA and LoZ.

Actually, LOZ Ganon did have the trident. It wasn't in the original version or any of LOZ's direct re-releases, but LOZ Ganon did have the trident in official artwork as well as in the only actual remake of LOZ. Intent from after 1991 seems to imply that LOZ Ganon had the trident. Not that it was important at all until FSA. LOZ only said that Ganon stole the ToP. It didn't say anything about how he was transformed. FSA Ganon = LOZ Ganon could still work out since the FS could barely contain Vaati. I've even considered placing FSA (and possibly the other two FS games) between ALTTP and LOZ showing a new Ganon emerging after ALTTP to return in LOZ. I had a theory similar to that when I first came to this site.

^True, but this Zelda that wasn't the "true" Zelda was the one holding onto the Triforce of Wisdom at the time before she was kidnapped. So does the fact that she was only named Zelda because of the decree devalue her legitimacy? Can only the "true" Zelda wield the Triforce of Wisdom? Because if so, then we did have two "true" Zeldas during LoZ.

This could again be explained away like you said earlier with the fact that only one Ganon would be active at a time... At the time of LoZ only one Zelda was active. However, that may mean that LoZ Zelda had to be inactive during AoL for that to work out. But it's entirely possible that LoZ Zelda could have died in between LoZ and AoL or simply lost her legitimacy when the original "true" Zelda woke up again. Neither of those would work against ganonlord's theory as far as I can tell.

This is similar to my idea about Ganon. ALTTP Ganon probably wasn't the true Ganon at the time, but since he was the only one active since FSA Ganon was sealed in the FS, he would be considered the true Ganon until he was killed in ALTTP. Then FSA Ganon would return and would eventually fall to the Silver arrow as well (which could explain why Twinrova needed to revive Ganon in the oracles instead one one taking over for the last one after the last Ganon's death. But this is a theory for another time). Or LOZ Ganon is a Ganon who was born or created before all of the others who is never seen in any of the games.

[Volvagia_slayer]

Or LOZ Ganon is a Ganon who was born or created before all of the others who is never seen in any of the games.

This is my preferred theory. After all, LoZ Ganon is the only one referred to as a warlock (though the word could be different in the Japanese translations, but that's what he was called in the GBA version which had its text fixed), and he's the only one who we can't really pin a guaranteed transformation reason on. (You're right that they don't mention LoZ Ganon's transformation. I was saying that it says that he's already Ganon before he steals the Triforce of Power, or at least that's my interpretation of "Ganon stole the Triforce of Power" (paraphrased, obviously).) If this Ganon either started out as Ganon or just used his personal magic to transform into Ganon, then he likely wouldn't be the same guy as previous Ganons. Of course if that BS LoZ trident thing is canon, and it's supposed to be the same trident as the one from FSA, then the Trident could still be responsible for his transformation (though I do find it odd that they still left out the trident in the GBA version if it was supposed to be that important.

[Fin]

This is my preferred theory. After all, LoZ Ganon is the only one referred to as a warlock (though the word could be different in the Japanese translations, but that's what he was called in the GBA version which had its text fixed), and he's the only one who we can't really pin a guaranteed transformation reason on.

Ganon is described as a demon king in the Japanese version of LoZ, a title used consistently for all versions of Ganon throughout the series.

(You're right that they don't mention LoZ Ganon's transformation. I was saying that it says that he's already Ganon before he steals the Triforce of Power, or at least that's my interpretation of "Ganon stole the Triforce of Power" (paraphrased, obviously).) If this Ganon either started out as Ganon or just used his personal magic to transform into Ganon, then he likely wouldn't be the same guy as previous Ganons.

I think LoZ just makes the assumption that Ganon is and always was a blue demon pig. It was only the first game, so the mythology was a lot simpler. You can't really expect it to predict where the series was going to go later on.

Of course if that BS LoZ trident thing is canon, and it's supposed to be the same trident as the one from FSA, then the Trident could still be responsible for his transformation

I think the importance FSA places on Ganon acquiring the Trident is certainly meant to explain the origin of his weapon in the other games. I see no reason to doubt it's the same Trident every time. Though I imagine LttP's explanation for Ganon's transformation was supposed to hold true for LoZ as well. After all, LttP was the origin story for Ganon at that point.

(though I do find it odd that they still left out the trident in the GBA version if it was supposed to be that important.

I don't think Nintendo are that concerned about continuity. It was a straight port, I doubt Nintendo would bother to change one little detail just for the sake of the series storyline. (The textual changes don't count, since that was an updated translation on the part of NoA. The Japanese text was untouched, as far as I know.)

Edited by Finbarr, 21 November 2010 - 12:00 AM.

[Volvagia_slayer]

Ganon is described as a demon king in the Japanese version of LoZ, a title used consistently for all versions of Ganon throughout the series.

I wasn't referring to his title. In the English version his title is the "Prince of Darkness". "Warlock" is a completely separate descriptive. I seriously doubt the Japanese version says anything close to "The Triforce of Power was stolen by a demon King, Ganon the demon king..." which is about how it would look if both "warlock" AND "prince of darkness" are properly translated as "demon king".

I see no reason to doubt it's the same Trident every time.

The only reason I see to doubt it is that both LoZ Ganon and ALttP Ganon die, and we're shown that resurrection ceremonies are pretty difficult in the Zelda universe. Both times a resurrection has been attempted on Ganon, they've ultimately failed. In order for it to be the same Trident and Ganon every time, LoZ Ganon would have had to have been resurrected successfully for a change, even after his death in ALttP and improper resurrection in OoX (if you place them before LoZ).

I don't think Nintendo are that concerned about continuity.

I definitely agree with you there.

[ganonlord6000]

I don't think Nintendo are that concerned about continuity. It was astraight port, I doubt Nintendo would bother to change one littledetail just for the sake of the series storyline. (The textual changesdon't count, since that was an updated translation on the part of NoA.The Japanese text was untouched, as far as I know.)

And it would be pointless to alter anything in the GBA LOZ besides the text since it was part of the classic NES series.

The only reason I see to doubt it is that both LoZ Ganon and ALttPGanon die, and we're shown that resurrection ceremonies are prettydifficult in the Zelda universe. Both times a resurrection has beenattempted on Ganon, they've ultimately failed. In order for it to bethe same Trident and Ganon every time, LoZ Ganon would have had to havebeen resurrected successfully for a change, even after his death inALttP and improper resurrection in OoX (if you place them before LoZ).

This I agree with. The trident is just a weapon. The one in FSA probably applies to only that Ganon and not to another. It probably was meant to be ALTTP's Ganon's trident when it was going to be the IW, but I don't know if that still applies now since FSA's story was changed shortly before its release.

Ganon is described as a demon king in the Japanese version of LoZ, atitle used consistently for all versions of Ganon throughout the series.

Does anyone know where to actually find this? I very rarely read about anything regarding the Japanese versions of the NES games.

[MikePetersSucks]

^True, but this Zelda that wasn't the "true" Zelda was the one holding onto the Triforce of Wisdom at the time before she was kidnapped. So does the fact that she was only named Zelda because of the decree devalue her legitimacy? Can only the "true" Zelda wield the Triforce of Wisdom? Because if so, then we did have two "true" Zeldas during LoZ.

Well, more like her FAMILY holds it. And even then, it never physically enters her body; that seems to be the part that matters as far as ownership goes.

Regardless, there are plenty of definitively "true" Zeldas that never even see the Triforce, so that quantifier is stupid. That's why I explicitly didn't use it.

This could again be explained away like you said earlier with the fact that only one Ganon would be active at a time... At the time of LoZ only one Zelda was active. However, that may mean that LoZ Zelda had to be inactive during AoL for that to work out. But it's entirely possible that LoZ Zelda could have died in between LoZ and AoL or simply lost her legitimacy when the original "true" Zelda woke up again. Neither of those would work against ganonlord's theory as far as I can tell.

Er...no...That's not what I was trying to say at all.

As for LOZ Ganon's origins, the cartoon implied that he gained his pig form when he seized the Triforce of Power. I've found nothing to refute this, so into my personal canon it stays.

[SOAP]

^True, but this Zelda that wasn't the "true" Zelda was the one holding onto the Triforce of Wisdom at the time before she was kidnapped. So does the fact that she was only named Zelda because of the decree devalue her legitimacy? Can only the "true" Zelda wield the Triforce of Wisdom? Because if so, then we did have two "true" Zeldas during LoZ.

Well, more like her FAMILY holds it. And even then, it never physically enters her body; that seems to be the part that matters as far as ownership goes.

But wait, doesn't LoZ Zelda break the ToW into different pieces and scatters them throughout Hyrule in order to keep Ganon from obtaining it? How can she do that to a powerful artifact as the Triforce unless she was a true weilder of the Tow? I don't think the Triforce physically being inside a character can apply to a game like the original LoZ. The graphical capabilities of the time as well as the fact it was the first LoZ game ever, I don't think the whole mechanics of how the Triforce pieces are suppose to work was well established back then. If the original LoZ was remade in full-blown 3D with a plot, I'm pretty sure Ganon and Zelda would have the Triforce marks on their hands indiacting their ownership.

Anyhoo (@everyone else), two Ganons existing simulataneouly is not really the issue. It could work. With some explanations it shouldn't be too hard. But why bother when it's simply easier to accept an order that avoids the need to explain how two Ganons exists at the same time, yet no one in the games make any mention of it, nor do the two Ganons ever team up which seems like a waste of an epic oppurtunity. It's easy to accept two Zelda's existing simulatneously because there's backstory evidence to back it up and there's no other way to look at it other than to say LoZ Zelda is somehow not a "true" Zelda... whatever that means. With Ganon there's nothing of the sort to back it up other than just for shits and giggles.

[MikePetersSucks]

But wait, doesn't LoZ Zelda break the ToW into different pieces and scatters them throughout Hyrule in order to keep Ganon from obtaining it? How can she do that to a powerful artifact as the Triforce unless she was a true weilder of the Tow?

Because as a member of the family, she is a true holder. Herp derp.

Or she just broke the thing. It wouldn't be the first time.

I don't think the Triforce physically being inside a character can apply to a game like the original LoZ. The graphical capabilities of the time as well as the fact it was the first LoZ game ever, I don't think the whole mechanics of how the Triforce pieces are suppose to work was well established back then. If the original LoZ was remade in full-blown 3D with a plot, I'm pretty sure Ganon and Zelda would have the Triforce marks on their hands indiacting their ownership.

Fine, but until then, such is not the case.

Anyhoo (@everyone else), two Ganons existing simulataneouly is not really the issue. It could work. With some explanations it shouldn't be too hard. But why bother when it's simply easier to accept an order that avoids the need to explain how two Ganons exists at the same time, yet no one in the games make any mention of it, nor do the two Ganons ever team up which seems like a waste of an epic oppurtunity. It's easy to accept two Zelda's existing simulatneously because there's backstory evidence to back it up and there's no other way to look at it other than to say LoZ Zelda is somehow not a "true" Zelda... whatever that means. With Ganon there's nothing of the sort to back it up other than just for shits and giggles.

Agreed

[SOAP]

But wait, doesn't LoZ Zelda break the ToW into different pieces and scatters them throughout Hyrule in order to keep Ganon from obtaining it? How can she do that to a powerful artifact as the Triforce unless she was a true weilder of the Tow?

Because as a member of the family, she is a true holder. Herp derp.

Or she just broke the thing. It wouldn't be the first time.

The plot of LoZ is increbily thin but even then I was never under the impression that the ToW was broken by accident. Maybe something done as a last ditch effort to thwart Ganon's plans, but nonetheless something Zelda did purposely. Also I don't think the Triforce pieces could easily broken to begin with. It took Link being "seperated from the elements that made him a hero" to shatter the ToC. I think Zelda shattering the Triforce by her own will implies that she's a chosen weilder and not just somehow who happens to be in the same bloodline as a true weilder.

But enough of that. We basically agree on everything else.

[Jarsh]

The only reason I see for absolutely needing two Ganons existing at once is because one might think FSA has to be placed before OoT. However, now that recent observations actually point to Aonuma talking about TMC (which could be separated from FS and FSA) and not FS as the first game, it's not really necessary. For two Ganons at once to bridge the FS games to the classic games, I don't think it's really necessary if it doesn't seem like it's the original intent.

[MikePetersSucks]

The plot of LoZ is increbily thin but even then I was never under the impression that the ToW was broken by accident. Maybe something done as a last ditch effort to thwart Ganon's plans, but nonetheless something Zelda did purposely. Also I don't think the Triforce pieces could easily broken to begin with. It took Link being "seperated from the elements that made him a hero" to shatter the ToC. I think Zelda shattering the Triforce by her own will implies that she's a chosen weilder and not just somehow who happens to be in the same bloodline as a true weilder.

Ganon was able to just steal it. In LoZ, they're physical objects that obey whoever holds them. My theory is that this is part of the king's wish, who remains the true owner until the Sleeping Zelda is saved.

[ganonlord6000]

The only reason I see for absolutely needing two Ganons existing at once is because one might think FSA has to be placed before OoT. However, now that recent observations actually point to Aonuma talking about TMC (which could be separated from FS and FSA) and not FS as the first game, it's not really necessary. For two Ganons at once to bridge the FS games to the classic games, I don't think it's really necessary if it doesn't seem like it's the original intent.

That's why I'm thinking of changing this. It does seem more than likely that Aonuma was talking about TMC during that interview since it can easily be seperated from the rest of the FSS. Not that it matters now that SS seems to be ruining that.