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So I've started reading Twilight...


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#1 Raien

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 07:10 PM

It's been a good while since we had a good long chat about Twilight, one in which I admit I was happy to throw assumptions around despite not reading the book. So now, after reading all seven Harry Potter books in a row and a long lost novel from my childhood, King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table, I have finally started reading Twilight. I am currently two chapters in, just enough to give a first impression for now.

I was hoping that despite the notorious gender split over the success of this book, that I, a man, would be able to enjoy this book as much as the general female population. But two chapters in, I have already well and truly given up any hope of enjoying Twilight. It's not that there's anything particularly awful about the writing or the plot, but there's an impenetrable quality to the entire experience. I can't relate to Bella, I can't engage my imagination in Bella's world. It's a very weird situation for me, and one that I've never had with any other book, even the ones I've hated.

But despite not enjoying this book, I'm still going to read it because the divisive nature of this book fascinates me. I don't think we've ever seen a work of fiction split men and women in quite this fashion. I've already come to a few conclusions about why this book is so offputting to the male reader, and funnily enough, most of them come from the fact that the book is told in the first-person, from Bella's point-of-view. It not only makes the book hard to read, it makes it very easy to misread.

First of all, Bella makes a lot of offhand observations about what she sees around her. For example, she's so terrible at sports that playing the game ends up hurting her own team, or there's a boy called Mark who follows her around so much that she imagines him with a wagging tail. If these observations were made in the third-person, like J.K. Rowling does with Harry Potter, it would be clear that they're meant to add humour to the book. But told in the first-person, they make Bella look like a sad, conceited person. It's bad enough that Bella's bad at sports, but it's sad that she goes to such lengths to avoid it and talks about it every time there's a gym class. Likewise, it sounds heartless to hear Mark constantly referred to like some poor animal who's beneath her. In the Harry Potter books, I remember Hermione Granger referred to as mousey with big teeth, but if Harry Potter was thinking that in his mind, I'd find it hard to relate to his character. The first-person viewpoint seems to place more significance on these offhand observations than I think Stephenie Meyer intended. They're not meant to stand out on the page, yet they do.

In addition to that, the offhand remarks also make it difficult to understand Bella's meaning. I remember people criticising the point that Bella has everyone at school looking at her because she's so attractive, but she ignores them. In fact, Bella says that the attention is due to her being the new girl in a very small community where everyone knows each other. This is a good example of how hard it is to understand Bella's character. She says a lot of things, but it's impossible to grasp whether these things are important to the plot or just throwaway lines of dialogue.

Aside from that jarring, Bella spends far too much time talking about the everyday aspects of her life. Her second day of school is almost identical to the first, so to keep hearing about Mark following her around the school or how she sucks at gym class or how little her dad, Charlie, can't talk to her gets very old quickly. When people talk about how Bella has no identifiable interests, I think they're just picking up on how repetitive much of the book is. Harry Potter had only one identifiable interest, Quidditch, but there was so much more exciting stuff in the book that nobody cared it got cancelled in the fourth year. With Bella, you want her to have an interest if only it gives you something different to hear her talk about. Of course, if Twilight was written in the third-person, Stephenie Meyer wouldn't be able to get away with such monotony. It would be clear that her story's pacing is too slow and padded out.

And as a quick aside, I've heard people say that Bella and Edward have no shared interests to justify their relationship. But the same could be said for Ron and Hermione, yet nobody really cared that they got together at the end of that series. In the third person, there's a lot you can get away with because the characters are complicated and have their secrets. But with Bella's thoughts and feelings being laid bare, it feels like every little thing about her reasoning should be justified somehow, even when that's impossible for Stephenie Meyer to do. In fact, when Bella explained her parents' divorce to Edward, my immediate thought was, "Why doesn't she like snow?"


I'm interested to know what the Twilight fans here make of my observations. To be fair, I could imagine this book being enjoyable if the reader was able to think along the same lines as Bella Swan. As someone with very different experiences, I can't relate to her at all. But as a positive point for the book, I thought Stephenie Meyer handled the introduction of Edward Cullen very well. At least for the moment, Edward's an interesting character because he's a mystery. He not only acts very oddly but he manages to get Bella to open up her feelings. It'll be interesting to see whether he can stay that way.

Edited by Raien, 03 September 2010 - 07:12 PM.


#2 Pinecove

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 07:22 PM

So I've started reading Twilight...

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!



...
Spoiler


#3 Egann

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 10:16 PM

Yeah. I actually made it 2/3rds of the way through the first book. Then I just figured it to be stupid.

Now, in all fairness, I kind of like the idea of a vampire/human love story. Trinity Blood pulled it off incredibly well. Perhaps I don't like Twilight because, next to Trinity Blood's subtle restraint (in an action anime, nonetheless) it appears positively boorish. I would, however, like to hear someone else (preferably a Twilight fan) comparing the two.

#4 Jasi

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Posted 05 September 2010 - 12:47 PM

I think it's really interesting how you've pinned all the problems on first- versus third-person narration. I think there could be something to it. Perhaps that would make Twilight a better book, literature-wise.

However, I think you would still have to confront the fact that Twilight can't compare to Harry Potter because if its lack of good morals. As I saw well-stated somewhere on the interwebs, Harry Potter is an epic about facing your fears, overcoming obstacles, and doing what's right in the face of adversity; Twilight is about how important it is to have a boyfriend.

#5 Fin

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Posted 05 September 2010 - 01:36 PM

I thought Harry Potter was about keeping your head down, never trying to accomplish anything with your life, and trusting in the almighty Dumbledore to see you through.

Also, if we take Rowling's word on the whole Dumbledore was gay for Grindelwald thing, there's the subtheme that love is an overwhelmingly good force, except when two men are involved.

Good ol' Rowling. ;d

#6 Twinrova

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Posted 05 September 2010 - 01:42 PM

Also, if we take Rowling's word on the whole Dumbledore was gay for Grindelwald thing, there's the subtheme that love is an overwhelmingly good force, except when two men are involved.


What? All I ever heard was that she said Dumbledore was gay. Did I miss something?

#7 Fin

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Posted 05 September 2010 - 04:20 PM

Also, if we take Rowling's word on the whole Dumbledore was gay for Grindelwald thing, there's the subtheme that love is an overwhelmingly good force, except when two men are involved.


What? All I ever heard was that she said Dumbledore was gay. Did I miss something?


She explained that the only reason she could figure out how Dumbledore's moral compass would ever, ever fail him* would be if he fell in love, so she wrote the Grindelwald relationship. It's not explicit in the text that they were lovers, but Rowling makes in clear in interviews. Anyway, given that in all other areas of the text love is shown to be force of supreme good and niceness and puppies, it's kind of horrible that the only example of love leading to bad things is also the only example of homosexual love.

* I forgot to mention that for all the talk of choice and tolerance, the books promote the message that people's morality is innate.




Anyway, er, sorry for derailing the thread, Raien. Back on topic, I've been keeping up with this guy's Twilight reviews. They're amusing, even though some of the guy's points are actually pretty bad.



#8 Veteran

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Posted 05 September 2010 - 05:09 PM

I've not read or watched Twilight, and I like taking the piss out people who like the series (because, why not? It's like how can you resist not being condescending towards Emos for example? XD), however, I think I heard in someone's review that it ends up where

Spoiler


If that's true, then even without any context I find it an interesting development.





Shit. I think somewhere in this post I actually praised Twilight. :cucco:

#9 Egann

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 08:29 AM

Also, if we take Rowling's word on the whole Dumbledore was gay for Grindelwald thing, there's the subtheme that love is an overwhelmingly good force, except when two men are involved.


What? All I ever heard was that she said Dumbledore was gay. Did I miss something?


Allow me to voice my opinion as an author; if it's not in the book, even if the author said it, it is not canon. Why? Because fiction is about gaining experience vicariously, living for a moment in another place. Sure the reader learns about the people and places of the story along the way, but the real point of fiction is for the reader to learn about him or herself. That means that each reader's lesson will be slightly different, and the idea that somehow the author can come in and say "well, X is true" would completely destroy this by making every reading an exact copy of the author's intent.



Back on topic.


Twilight is popular is because Bella is effectively a (pretty) empty mirror for girls to project themselves into. For that end, choosing first person was probably the best. But in all fairness, first person is a HARD point of view to write because it is so tied to a certain character. Even the late Michael Crichton in Prey was forced to lapse out of it and into 3PO in some key places to effectively maintain tension.

So, yeah. IF I'm reading Twilight correctly, Bella is a lot like the Marine in Doom; a blank slate for you to put yourself into. It's just in Bella's case she's been given some elementary character attribute as a...well...ditzy highschool teenager with the hots. If it had been done correctly and Bella had been given a real character, almost ANYONE could identify with that because I think just about all of us have had those highschool crushes that seem to blot out the sun in their intensity. The problem is that Twilight takes this crush, and assumes it to be unconditional love. Instinctively, we know this isn't true, so unless you ARE a...well, ditzy highschooler who wants to vicariously enjoy their highschool crushes, you'll see the discrepancies. Twilight is essentially The Notebook for teenagers, and I'm sorry, but while teenagers are fully capable of feeling that deeply, I don't think they are mature enough to feel anything but a selfish lust. I sure couldn't when I was that old.

#10 Raien

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 08:52 AM

I'll agree that Bella is a character that women can project themselves onto, but I strongly disagree with the opinion that Bella is a blank slate. A blank slate would imply that Bella has no emotions, that the reader is literally impressing their own thoughts and feelings onto the character. This logic works in video games, where the player takes control of the character, but not in linear storytelling.

In order to feel what a storybook character is feeling, in order for the reader to immerse himself/herself in the storybook world, the reader must be able to relate to the character and world. Bella's thoughts and feelings must be of a kind that the reader would either make in a similar situation or at least be able to understand why Bella is making them. If women like Twilight, it's clearly because they can relate to Bella. If men don't like it, it's clearly because they don't relate to Bella. But I'll also accept the argument that readers may view Bella's love as immature. Immaturity in stories has always strongly divided audiences; some enjoy it, others can't stand it.

Edited by Raien, 06 September 2010 - 08:53 AM.


#11 Fin

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 05:23 PM

Allow me to voice my opinion as an author; if it's not in the book, even if the author said it, it is not canon. Why? Because fiction is about gaining experience vicariously, living for a moment in another place. Sure the reader learns about the people and places of the story along the way, but the real point of fiction is for the reader to learn about him or herself. That means that each reader's lesson will be slightly different, and the idea that somehow the author can come in and say "well, X is true" would completely destroy this by making every reading an exact copy of the author's intent.


Fuckin a.

Incidentally, that's why I said "if we take Rowlings word on it." I still think the text itself makes Dumbles and Grindels out to be friends, and how the text reads is more important to me than Rowlings interviews.

#12 Showsni

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 05:27 PM


Allow me to voice my opinion as an author; if it's not in the book, even if the author said it, it is not canon. Why? Because fiction is about gaining experience vicariously, living for a moment in another place. Sure the reader learns about the people and places of the story along the way, but the real point of fiction is for the reader to learn about him or herself. That means that each reader's lesson will be slightly different, and the idea that somehow the author can come in and say "well, X is true" would completely destroy this by making every reading an exact copy of the author's intent.


Fuckin a.

Incidentally, that's why I said "if we take Rowlings word on it." I still think the text itself makes Dumbles and Grindels out to be friends, and how the text reads is more important to me than Rowlings interviews.


I just wish the people in Zelda Timelining would agree to this point of view... But no, it's all "But look at this interview with Miyamoto from the 80s!"

So, how about Twilight's wider impact on literature? By which I mean, just look at bookshops; these days, they all have a floor to ceiling shelf of "Dark Teenage Romance." I found it pretty funny to see they'd repackaged the Mediator series and Wuthering Heights to fit in with the trend. How long is this going to last?


#13 Raien

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 06:29 PM

So, how about Twilight's wider impact on literature? By which I mean, just look at bookshops; these days, they all have a floor to ceiling shelf of "Dark Teenage Romance." I found it pretty funny to see they'd repackaged the Mediator series and Wuthering Heights to fit in with the trend. How long is this going to last?


I've seen those bookshelves in various stores I've visited. My first response was to sigh at the fact that these copycat writers just seemed to be ripping off the themes and plot elements of Twilight, but then I remembered how my own childhood was full of TV shows and comics that stole themes and plot elements from the big 80s/90s movies that were making waves at the time. This is actually the formula for a strong entertainment industry. Writers borrow new and exciting concepts from the social phenomenons in order to produce their own exciting stories.

If there's a problem with the current book industry, it's the lack of social phenomenons. So far this decade we've had Harry Potter, which represents children's fantasy, and Twilight, which represents "Dark Teenage Romance". We need more book series like these and in some other genres. Good sci-fi would wonderfully compliment the fantasy theme we've got going, and good comedy would interest those who don't like escapist literature.

Edited by Raien, 08 September 2010 - 06:29 PM.





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