41 replies to this topic

[davogones]

Alright, it seems that the consensus among many is that The Minish Cap comes before even OoT, and is the first Zelda story in the timeline. My mind usually rebels against putting any game before OoT, but I'm hearing pretty good evidence. So how about we collect all that evidence into this thread so we can examine it all together?

I'm assuming it's obvious that Minish Cap is a prequel to Four Swords and Hyrulean Adventure. What isn't so obvious is: if TMC is a prequel to OoT, are FS and HA also prequels to OoT? TSA was talking to me about this, and I'm thinking that this actually makes a lot of sense. Such a theory would mean (1) Ganon is an ancient evil older than Ganondorf; (2) Ganondorf was born in the HA time period; and (3) Ganondorf was revived in the OoT time period and became the King of the Gerudo, possibly with the help of Twinrova (who are probably servants of Ganon rather than just Ganondorf).

[TSA]

Just to clarify on what I said - I thought Ganondorf first existed in Hyrulean Adventure, is sealed, then ANOTHER Game happens before OoT - in which Ganon escapes and the Four Sword is deemed to weak, and the Triforce not safe in Hyrule - so the Sages forge the Master Sword, and seal the Triforce away in the Sacred Realm and place keys througout Hyrule.

Ganondorf in OoT is seeking those keys.

[SwordBreaker]

If Ganon is an older, more ancient evil, this means...Ganondorf is actually a vessel for Ganon? Ganon is the original evil form which hides inside Ganondorf?

If so, then it really gives this whole 'Alter-Ego' thing a significant boost.

[Hero of Winds]

Although I still don't like the idea of putting any game, especially FS and FSA, before OoT, I think there's no other right place for TMC but at the beginning of the timeline. We learn that the Minish created the Armos, setting us up for all the Armos enemies in later games; the Minish have been hiding rupees and items in grass, pots, and under rocks; Hyrule is prosperous, with the Hero of Men vs. Ancient Demon story being the only bad thing that has happened; an explanation for where Link's green cap arised from is given; the ending clearly says this is Link's first adventure.

And although that last one could be interpreted as TMC Link's first adventure, keep in mind Nintendo usually uses the name "Link" as a collective name for all Links. So by saying this is Link's first adventure, they're probably saying this is the first adventure of a hero named Link.

EDIT-Plus, with this game at the beginning and not referencing the Imprisoning War, this is conclusive evidence that Luigi 64's theory is crap.

[Alakhriveion]

Well, Vaati is "released" in FS, right? So, really, it could ocur in any post-MC period containing a green-suited Link... Then, TMC could be before OoT without having to have too much time between them. That way, Ganondorf/Ganon could be he same guy from OoT, and TMC Link could be the father of OoT Link, who, you'll remember, died in some great battle.

I have no idea what I'm talking about, of course, I haven't played any of these yet. I just felt it should be said.

[MikePetersSucks]

True, all true to everyone. It should also be said that it's possible the Four Sword became the Master Sword. perhaps between OOT and FSA, the seal was broken (again) and the Four Sword was forced to change roles and properties? the Four Sword does seem to have evil's bane properties. >.>

[Lord Jabu-Jabu]

TMC Link could be the father of OoT Link, who, you'll remember, died in some great battle.

Nope, I don't remember. Sure you didn't make this up?

Also, if the Minish created the Armos Knights/Statues then why do the bastards attack Link? (especially puzzling since he wears the green cap)

[davogones]

I like the idea of Minish Cap happening before OoT... But I'm going to play devil's advocate and suppose that TMC happens after OoT. Consider what one of the Minish says:

These iron automata here were built
by the Minish ages ago to help humans.

Isn't it possible that the Minish did all their stuff ages ago, long before OoT? The current generation of Minish in TMC isn't the one that created all these things. That was done ages ago when the Minish first came from their world to Hyrule.

Plus, even though there's only one legend of evil stuff happening in TMC, that's true of all the games. ALttP only tells about the IW. OoT only tells about the Sacred Realm being hidden. TWW only tells about OoT. I think that each game tells about only the most recent disaster. So the fact that TMC doesn't tell about the IW or OoT doesn't count against it happening after OoT.

I'd like a more detailed description of the ending. Even if it says this is Link's first adventure, there was obviously another Link before (from the MC backstory). So it's not even true that the "generic" Link/hero had his first adventure here in TMC. This makes me think it's referring to MC Link, not to a generic Link.

[Neon Z]

Even if it says this is Link's first adventure, there was obviously another Link before (from the MC backstory). So it's not even true that the "generic" Link/hero had his first adventure here in TMC. This makes me think it's referring to MC Link, not to a generic Link.

The Hero from MC's prologue didn't have a cap, and there's no proof that he was called "Link"...

[Alakhriveion]

Nope, I don't remember. Sure you didn't make this up?

Not really. But he DID die before Link was brought to the Deku Tree.

[Zythe]

If the Hero of Men came before the Hero of whatever MC Link is ... Hero of milimetres, the Minish, light force(?) and he stopped a Ganon-like demon, on second inspection though the pig was just an ordinary moblin.

I like the theory about "Ganon" being an infinite evil, perhaps residing in the trident, that used Ganondorf as a vessel. In a sense, it explains Aghanim and everything ... but don't use this as a multiple Ganons theory please. If it's true, there's an eternal evil satanistic "Ganon" and a human body that harboured the soul at one part called "Ganondorf Dragmire."

I can't remember my amazing point ... so I'll just post

[SOAP]

Wait a tick.... Davaogones, Didn't I get chewed out by you for suggesting a Multiple Ganon theory in my mailbag entry. And now you've gone around and saying it actually makes sense!? I feel a little cheesed off here. There's only one thing that'll make me feel better and that's....







I TOLD YOU SO!

[Zythe]

LOL, Davo wasn't saying multiple Ganons in the context of the Links and Ganons. He's suggesting a LOOSE theory about a demonic spirit called "Ganon" that is timeless; Ganondorf, a human was simply a vessel for the monster.

The theory isn't airtight, I'd rather beleive that the bad guy of (my tenative title) the Hero of Man was someone else (hopefully an Oracle villain like Onox or Veran or maybe Twinrova (I love them)) ... for all we know there was no bad guy just a whole load of monsters that proved a nuisance.

If the next Zelda GCN/Zelda Revolution/Zelda DS is the prequel to Minish Cap then we'll know, I'd prefer if HA was post OoT, even if FSGBA is before it.

[SOAP]

Same diff. I'd also like to build off from my pre-server crash entry and start arguing that the Ganondorf from HA is not the same one from Oot and TWW. But I lack the energy and motivation so I won't.

[Zythe]

Just make a small justification, I don't seem any reason to see why they aren't one in the same. Anyway, I have my doubts about the '"Spirit Ganon" is not the same as "Ganonodorf Dragmire" exactly' theory.

[coinilius]

One thing that's a bit odd with the Minish having created the Armos - weren't the Armos always described as being warriors who were turned to stone before? Even the re-released LoZ for the GBA says something like that in the manual... unless the Minish are the ones who turned the warriors to stone...

[Kairu Hakubi]

considering many armos have been metal, i doubt it. i thought they were animated statues! golems of a sort.
so this game has the 'release of all monsters into hyrule' and the 'origin of link's hat' ?
i guess that makes it one HELL of a prequel.

[Hero of Winds]

One thing that's a bit odd with the Minish having created the Armos - weren't the Armos always described as being warriors who were turned to stone before? Even the re-released LoZ for the GBA says something like that in the manual... unless the Minish are the ones who turned the warriors to stone...

Perhaps the Armos were built to contain the souls of fallen warriors?

[MikePetersSucks]

Perhaps. Maybe they were made to both give warriors a second chance at life and to have heroes to protect Hyrule. They could of turned evil because of rage at being rendered statues and all that crap, or all those times Ganon has used magic to control the Knights of Hyrule permanently effected them, or heck, maybe they're just pissed that they're being shown up by a ten year old boy in fairy tights.

[davogones]

Thanks Zythe, you got my position correctly about the multiple Ganons thing. I still hold that there are NOT multiple Ganons or multiple Ganondorfs. I do, however, now think it plausible that Ganon and Ganondorf are different people.

Allow me to quote my "One Ganon or Many?" article:

The second response (to the theory that different people become Ganon) involves determining just who "Ganon" is. From my own personal experience, it appears to me that Ganon has always been the same person - meaning, he has the same personal identity, a consistent personality, etc. He is not different people who just happened to be possessed by some evil force. You don't hear any of them saying, "oh, I used to be Joe, but I was possessed by some weird thing that turned me into a form that people call Ganon." If you then abandon that position, and say that this "Ganon" thing which possesses people has a personality of its own which is preserved from host to host, then all you are really saying is that there is one Ganon, who just happens to take over different peoples' bodies. He is the same person, even if he changes bodies. If he takes over Joe's body, there is no more Joe, only Ganon. This is no different from saying that Ganon has been revived in a new body. When Twinrova used her body to revive Ganon in the Oracle games, this was no reason to suppose that Ganon was an entirely new person! Twinrova was destroyed, and Ganon took her place.

As you can see, I did not buy into this theory because there was no evidence that Ganon had possessed different people. However, now that FSA has been released, there IS clear evidence for this. Ganondorf found the Trident which had evil power inside it. This turned him into Ganon. FSA also doesn't go well anywhere in the timeline except before OoT.

Note that it is not required to view Ganon as separate from Ganondorf. Ganon could simply be Ganondorf's more powerful form after he has transformed using the power of the Trident. However, it is more plausible than ever before to view Ganon and Ganondorf as separate people. And it does solve quite a few timeline problems, and allows more flexible placement of the games. Games which have Ganon, with no mention of Ganondorf, can be placed in the timeline without regard to Ganondorf's status. (As long as Ganondorf isn't currently using Ganon's power.)

[SwordBreaker]

Thanks Zythe, you got my position correctly about the multiple Ganons thing. I still hold that there are NOT multiple Ganons or multiple Ganondorfs. I do, however, now think it plausible that Ganon and Ganondorf are different people.

Allow me to quote my "One Ganon or Many?" article:
As you can see, I did not buy into this theory because there was no evidence that Ganon had possessed different people. However, now that FSA has been released, there IS clear evidence for this. Ganondorf found the Trident which had evil power inside it. This turned him into Ganon. FSA also doesn't go well anywhere in the timeline except before OoT.

Note that it is not required to view Ganon as separate from Ganondorf. Ganon could simply be Ganondorf's more powerful form after he has transformed using the power of the Trident. However, it is more plausible than ever before to view Ganon and Ganondorf as separate people. And it does solve quite a few timeline problems, and allows more flexible placement of the games. Games which have Ganon, with no mention of Ganondorf, can be placed in the timeline without regard to Ganondorf's status. (As long as Ganondorf isn't currently using Ganon's power.)

Hmm...holding the Trident releases Ganon from his prison. It makes me think more about Agahnim/Ganon's relationship. The U.S. ALttP wasn't clear about that at all. I used to think that Ganon created Agahnim somehow, but with this theory we can strongly say that Ganon 'possessed' Agahnim...or technically Agahnim willingly made Ganon possess him.

I'm gonna go into fanfiction mode here to relate Agahnim/Ganon's origins with Davo's theory. Maybe Agahnim found the Ancient Trident or whatnot and released Ganon from his prison a.k.a the Dark World. In other words, Agahnim is the 'Ganondorf of the ALttP era'. No one says that a man named Ganondorf HAS to be the one who finds the Ancient evil of Ganon. And besides, the Gerudos were probably wiped out in ALttP's era.

I love this theory already.

[davogones]

That's one possible way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it is that Agahnim is in fact Ganondorf in disguise. When you kill Agahnim, you're killing Ganondorf's body and allowing the Ganon-spirit to escape.

I don't know about that though. Everyone seems to think that Ganon used to be Ganondorf. Maybe Ganon never stopped inhabiting Ganondorf, and the single Ganon(dorf) entity inhabited Ganon.

It might also be fallacious to think of "Ganon" as a person. "Ganon" could simply be the power given by the Trident. In this sense, one becomes "Ganon" by receiving the Trident's power and taking on the pig-form. But it's not like your personality is erased and replaced with the personality of a person named "Ganon." This theory is kind of hard to reconcile with the Oracle games, however. If this "Ganon" force takes over Zelda's body, wouldn't Zelda still be in control? The answer might be that the Ganon force brings out your deepest darkest desires, suppressing your good instincts, effectively turning you into a power-hungry fiend. You might say this amounts to replacing your personality. I view it more like how the Triforce of Power corrupted its user in the Valiant Comics. Instead of the Triforce of Power doing it, think of the Trident doing the same thing. It turns you into "Ganon" no matter who you are.

[Lord Jabu-Jabu]

So, the idea is that Ganon is kind of like Veran from OoA?

[Hero of Winds]

That's one possible way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it is that Agahnim is in fact Ganondorf in disguise. When you kill Agahnim, you're killing Ganondorf's body and allowing the Ganon-spirit to escape.

I used to think that Aghanim was a reincarnation (minus the losing memories of previous life thing) of Ganon the spirit. In other words, Aghanim is just Ganon's (the spirit's) physical manifestation.

[Zythe]

I like Davo's theory, it makes everything work. Ganondorf is a human being, ordinary in every way untill he finds the trident and is made 'Ganon', and takes upon all the traits of Ganon etc. etc. Ganondorf, the first Ganon (probably where the name came from when Ganondorf transformed that form became dubbed Ganon) is also that which defines Ganon's personality and is in a sense "the Ganon" in every future form. Aghanim could be the Ganondorf of aLttP, takes the evil trident's power (now synonymous with Ganondorf Dragmire's will and wishes to hone the triforce) and sought to release Ganon's true (Ganondorf) form from the Dark Realm, which expains how he was Ganon all along.

What about Onox and Vaati? Do they fit in at all? Why do Vaati and Veran look so alike?

[davogones]

If we accept that all of the FS games (TMC, FS, FSA) take place before OoT, then the Trident was around long before Ganondorf. The power in the trident wasn't necessarily known as "Ganon." It could be that, when Ganondorf took this power in FSA, it then became known as Ganon. That is, Ganondorf took on a new form by using this ancient power, and called this new form "Ganon."

Under this theory it appears that the Sacred Realm has been the Dark World prior to OoT. Whenever something evil inhabits the Sacred Realm, it turns into the Dark World because it's a reflection of the heart of whoever enters it. Putting the Oracle games in the intervening centuries between FSA and OoT would make sense. We see that Twinrova, Veran, and Onox reside in the Dark World and are working to revive Ganon (who may or may not be Ganondorf as well, depending on your theory). When this failed, Twinrova perhaps decided it would be better to bring back Ganondorf as a human, and make him King of the Gerudo so he could get the Triforce. Maybe it was too complicated to bring him back as Ganon.

[SOAP]

But that doesn't make sense. If you put FSA before OoT, then Ganon existed way before OoT because he's described a demon from "ancient times" not some alter ego created when Ganondorf took the trident. And Ganon can't be a separate being that possesed Ganon because LttP is very clear that Ganon started off as a human named Ganondorf Dragmire, not the other way around! If Ganon is a demon from ancient times possessing a man from that time period named Ganondorf, then obviously it's a different Ganondorf, most likely a decendant or reincarnation of the original Ganondorf that became Ganon. It would then be the original Ganondorf that LttP's backstory refers too not whoever this reincarnation is. And if that's so, the Imprison War took place well before OoT earlier in Ganon carrer when he was still a human himself. And if that's so, there's no reason LttP should take place after OoT!

[Alakhriveion]

"Ganon" could simply be the power given by the Trident.

Well, once we're on that road, why not just say "Ganon" is Hylian for "Demon," "Link" is Hylian for "Hero," and give up altogether?

And it doesn't make sense for TMC AND FS/FSA to take place before Oot. You need to Give a little time before Vaati gets released.

[SOAP]

Yes. Exactly. And for the sake of preserving OoT as the Imprisoning War, I'd say FSA should come some time after OoT, most likely near or in the LttP era and declare the Ganondorf in that game is not the same one from OoT.