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Darkness and demons in the Zelda series


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#1 Fin

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 11:09 AM

It's been kind of slow around here for a while, so I feel like posting a thread about something which I am dangerously unqualified to talk about - Japanese mythology! ;d I really want to get some second opinions on some of the stuff I've thought about here, especially from MPS, since I no doubt completely mangled everything on mazoku and Mikaboshi in figuring this out.


First of all, a brief rundown of some relevant terms, and which games they appear in.

大魔王/Daimaou (Great Demon King)
Used in LoZ, OoT, OoX, and TP. My understanding is that daimaou is a fairly generic term to ascribe to a maou in Japanese media (just a way to say that you really don't wanna fuck around with this guy). Since both Ganons are canonically BAMFs, I think the term applies equally to both, even though only a few games use it.

闇の魔王/Yami no Maou (Demon King of Darkness)
Used in LttP, OoX, and FSA. Note that the title is never used for the Ganon of the 3D games, despite both Ganons having ties to Darkness. FSA Ganon gained the title King of Darkness for possessing the Trident, so that explains why only he is called the Demon King of Darkness.

魔界/Makai (Demon World)
Used in AoL, OoT, WW, and FSA.

闇の世界/Yami no Sekai (World of Darkness)
Used in LttP, OoT, OoX, WW, and FSA.


Amatsu-Mikaboshi

God of evil and the stars. Raien brought this up a year ago. Here's what the wikipedia article (lol) has to say on its origins.

The exact details and characterizations of the Amatsu-Mikaboshi are very cloudy or unclear, as he (or it) is rarely if ever mentioned in any of the typically referenced texts of East Asian Mythology. From what can be gleaned and pieced together from ancient Japanese myths, the Mikaboshi is not a physical god in the sense like Amaterasu or Susanoo, but a dark Force that existed before the universe, reigning alone in absolute darkness and control.

Something happened, however, and in one brief instance the iron control of the Dark Force of the Mikaboshi was shattered by the movement of In and Yo, which brought forth the Universe and the active chaos of life and movement, which later became the gods and humanity. The solidity of the Primordial Darkness had been destroyed, but its residue still lingered on in the hearts of all beings and is allegedly the cause of human passions.

The Mikaboshi originated as an antithesis to the positive forces of life in Shinto, thus its lack of a singular form. It is a force of absolute domination that feeds off of human emotions that, if left unchecked, result in social, emotional, or physical destruction. For instance, a desire for success can lead to greed and lust for power, which is the result of the influence of the Mikaboshi's residue. Love for another can lead to obsession or jealousy, also result of these dark influences. In this respect the Mikaboshi could be thought of as being a Japanese "Satan figure." This is supported by its title as "August Star of Heaven" which is similar to the term "Morningstar" which is used another name for Lucifer in Christianity.

In later centuries, certain creatures that are by nature dark or demonic were said to be connected to the Mikaboshi in a sort of slave relationship to its power. Souls that died with strong attachments and came back to hurt the living were said to have become physical agents to the Mikaboshi's force in a more direct way than simple greed or lust when living, and such creatures as oni (ogre demons), Ama-no-Jaku, and Demons were also results of certain natural elements falling prey to passions fed by the Mikaboshi's temptations. The ultimate goal, it is said, was to absoultely destroy everything by dissolving it back into chaos, whereby the static, controlling power of the Mikaboshi could return.


I think a lot of what I've quoted about Mikaboshi applies to the Zelda universe, though I think of Zelda's Darkness as an equivalent to Mikaboshi itself, and not just a property or tool of Mikaboshi. I also don't think of it as a deity or any kind of sentient force, but just the primordial chaos of the universe and the antithesis of Light. The Dark World is probably part of this, existing as another plane of existence throughout Hyrule's history, with Ganon making use of it as his demon world.


魔族/Mazoku (Demon Race)

Here's my current understanding of mazoku. The term originated as a way to distinguish the demons of other mythologies from those of Japanese mythology. Depending on the story, mazoku characteristics differ, but they typically have demonic features, such as horns, pointed ears, and the like. The leader or leaders of mazoku are called maou and their dominion is a makai. In some stories, any being can become a maou. For example, when applying the terminology to Christian mythology Lucifer ascends to maou status when he becomes Satan. The term daimaou is sometimes used to suggest high status.

In the Zelda universe, one of the ways in which mortals can become demons is by continuous use of Dark magic, as we see with Ganondorf and Twinrova in Ocarina of Time, who are depicted with greenish skin. Ganon later gains pointed ears when he becomes a demon king. Twilight Princess gives him fangs and pointed ears even before he becomes a demon king.

To emphasise the ties to Darkness, Ganon's demon world is known as the Dark World and Trident Ganon is the Demon King of Darkness. The term Dark World is used to describe any area that Ganon has covered in Darkness, though Four Swords Adventures and the Oracle games suggest there is an otherworldly Dark World which serves as Ganon's demon world. His efforts to cover Hyrule in Darkness show his desire to expand his demon world into Hyrule.

Edited by Fin, 01 February 2010 - 12:20 PM.


#2 Emiko

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 11:57 AM

If you think about it, the "dark world" is also in Twilight Princess...for twilight is another type of darkness...and "evil" was banished to it just like LttP.

Religion and ancient beliefs are stringed through a lot of games and animes and movies in the Japanese culture. It is proof that even though they advanced in civilization they still hold their ancient traditions with high honor and esteem.

#3 Fin

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 12:29 PM

If you think about it, the "dark world" is also in Twilight Princess...for twilight is another type of darkness...and "evil" was banished to it just like LttP.


Darkness definitely plays a massive role in Twilight Princess, but I don't think the Twilight Realm itself is related. I think it's probably truer to liken Twilight to Light, with Darkness as an all-consuming force that threatens both. The NoA version of Twilight Princess tends to use the terms dark and shadow interchangeably, but the original text is more clear about distinguishing the two. The Twilight that threatens to consume Hyrule is Dark, but it's more like a corruption of the Twilight Realm's natural Twilight (in the Japanese, Hyrule's twilight is referred to by the English term, whereas the Japanese word is used to refer to the Twilight Realm's twilight.)

#4 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 01:05 PM

大魔王/Daimaou (Great Demon King)
Used in LoZ, OoT, OoX, and TP. My understanding is that daimaou is a fairly generic term to ascribe to a maou in Japanese media (just a way to say that you really don't wanna fuck around with this guy). Since both Ganons are canonically BAMFs, I think the term applies equally to both, even though only a few games use it.

闇の魔王/Yami no Maou (Demon King of Darkness)
Used in LttP, OoX, and FSA. Note that the title is never used for the Ganon of the 3D games, despite both Ganons having ties to Darkness. FSA Ganon gained the title King of Darkness for possessing the Trident, so that explains why only he is called the Demon King of Darkness.

魔界/Makai (Demon World)
Used in AoL, OoT, WW, and FSA.

闇の世界/Yami no Sekai (World of Darkness)
Used in LttP, OoT, OoX, WW, and FSA.


There's no meaningful distinction between the above two terms, just flowery text.

Mostly the same with the bottom two, but there is a marginal distinction. Not one I do not believe Zelda acknowledges, though.

I think a lot of what I've quoted about Mikaboshi applies to the Zelda universe, though I think of Zelda's Darkness as an equivalent to Mikaboshi itself, and not just a property or tool of Mikaboshi. I also don't think of it as a deity or any kind of sentient force, but just the primordial chaos of the universe and the antithesis of Light. The Dark World is probably part of this, existing as another plane of existence throughout Hyrule's history, with Ganon making use of it as his demon world.


I see no evidence to suggest Mikaboshi, or any sort of counterpart, plays any role in the Zelda canon whatsoever. There's no opposing force to the Goddesses, nor anything that resists them, that isn't something they themselves created.

魔族/Mazoku (Demon Race)

Here's my current understanding of mazoku. The term originated as a way to distinguish the demons of other mythologies from those of Japanese mythology. Depending on the story, mazoku characteristics differ, but they typically have demonic features, such as horns, pointed ears, and the like. The leader or leaders of mazoku are called maou and their dominion is a makai. In some stories, any being can become a maou. For example, when applying the terminology to Christian mythology Lucifer ascends to maou status when he becomes Satan. The term daimaou is sometimes used to suggest high status


Mazoku can be better read as "Demon Army", imo. The term is generally used to refer to the demonic forces under a daimaou's control, or a demon seeking to join a master. The lone, small time demon that serves no one isn't associated with "Mazoku."

To give a popular culture reference, let's look at..like, I don't know, Inuyasha. Naraku is our Daimaou, and all the demons he recruits, creates, or controls are his Mazoku. However, Shippo or Kirara or any of our other demon friends, or even the nameless or expendable one time demon opponents, do not fall under this term.

f you think about it, the "dark world" is also in Twilight Princess...for twilight is another type of darkness...and "evil" was banished to it just like LttP.


The Zelda series does not hold Darkness and Twilight to be the same, nor was evil banished there, technically. Only greed and ambition (well, and Ganondorf, but he was Darkness, not Twilight).

In Zelda Canon, Light and Twilight seem to have this Ying Yang business going on, and both are benevolent and needed, but Darkness is some always evil, twisted, horrible thing that doesn't belong in the universe the Goddesses created, and is totally out of place (I suppose one could spin this to be an implication for Mikaboshi, but I doubt it).

#5 Fin

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 04:45 PM

There's no meaningful distinction between the above two terms, just flowery text.

Mostly the same with the bottom two, but there is a marginal distinction. Not one I do not believe Zelda acknowledges, though.


I think Demon King of Darkness so far only literally applies to trident Ganon (King of Darkness seems to be a title granted by the Trident), but ultimately Demon King of Darkness suits both Ganons, so I agree that there's no meaningful distinction. As for why I kept all these things separate in the first place, I mostly wanted to account for the different times each separate term was used. In general I think of maou/king of darkness and makai/dark world as interchangeable.

I see no evidence to suggest Mikaboshi, or any sort of counterpart, plays any role in the Zelda canon whatsoever. There's no opposing force to the Goddesses, nor anything that resists them, that isn't something they themselves created.


Hm. Well, I was thinking of Darkness as a kind of watered down version of Mikaboshi, but I guess that's more of a way to force some Mikaboshi element onto the canon than a legitimate interpretation. You're the expert here, so I'll drop it.

Mazoku can be better read as "Demon Army", imo. The term is generally used to refer to the demonic forces under a daimaou's control, or a demon seeking to join a master. The lone, small time demon that serves no one isn't associated with "Mazoku."

To give a popular culture reference, let's look at..like, I don't know, Inuyasha. Naraku is our Daimaou, and all the demons he recruits, creates, or controls are his Mazoku. However, Shippo or Kirara or any of our other demon friends, or even the nameless or expendable one time demon opponents, do not fall under this term.


I was kind of aware of the distinction between mazoku and lone demons, but I didn't think to acknowledge it in my description. I haven't heard the demon army translation before (the alternatives I saw were tribe, clan, or family) but demon army definitely sounds like it carries the right connotation. Thanks!

#6 SOAP

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 02:35 AM

I see no evidence to suggest Mikaboshi, or any sort of counterpart, plays any role in the Zelda canon whatsoever. There's no opposing force to the Goddesses, nor anything that resists them, that isn't something they themselves created.


Well there was the chaos that existed before the Goddesses shaped it into Hyrule. But it's not exactly an actively malevolent sort of chaos that seeks to return to it's natural state. It would explain the existense of evil in the Zelda universe if it were true. Ganon can't be responsible for it all. Surely evil existed long before he first entered the scene.

The Zelda series does not hold Darkness and Twilight to be the same, nor was evil banished there, technically. Only greed and ambition (well, and Ganondorf, but he was Darkness, not Twilight).

In Zelda Canon, Light and Twilight seem to have this Ying Yang business going on, and both are benevolent and needed, but Darkness is some always evil, twisted, horrible thing that doesn't belong in the universe the Goddesses created, and is totally out of place (I suppose one could spin this to be an implication for Mikaboshi, but I doubt it).


The use of the word Twilight is confusing to me, personaly. Twilight is just lesser light. Yin Yang are supposed to be complimentary opposites. It would be like instead of a black and white Yin Yang you had a gray and white. Or instead of male and female you had male and some guy with man-boobs. I don't find it as a readily understood dichtomy. Light and Shadow make more sense as both are opposites but can compliment each other and both can be seen as benevolent parts of the Goddess' grand design. Besides the whole Light/Twilight thing only appears in TP whereas Light and Shadow appear [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img]. I see Darkness as something more akin to Void where nothing can exist, not even Shadow. It can also be an embalance of Light and Shadow that causes the relationship between the two forces to grow hostile.

Edited by SOAP, 02 February 2010 - 02:39 AM.


#7 Raien

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 08:15 AM

Shadow and Twilight are the same thing in Twilight Princess, defined as the product of Light. Thus, the Twilight Realm has benevolent properties.

Otherwise, I approve of this topic.

Edited by Raien, 02 February 2010 - 08:19 AM.


#8 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 11:08 AM

I was kind of aware of the distinction between mazoku and lone demons, but I didn't think to acknowledge it in my description. I haven't heard the demon army translation before (the alternatives I saw were tribe, clan, or family) but demon army definitely sounds like it carries the right connotation. Thanks!


Tribe, clan, or family are correct, yea, but army and tribe are sometimes expressed with the same word, so it's not a big leap.

Well there was the chaos that existed before the Goddesses shaped it into Hyrule. But it's not exactly an actively malevolent sort of chaos that seeks to return to it's natural state. It would explain the existense of evil in the Zelda universe if it were true. Ganon can't be responsible for it all. Surely evil existed long before he first entered the scene.


I don't think Ganondorf is responsible for it all. Back when he was a Gerudo thief/wizard, he had to be contracting powerful demons and monsters somehow.

However, the chaos spoken of doesn't seem to be anything; it apparently ceased existing the moment the Goddesses created, and in greek mythology, "Chaos" is just an empty void. I imagine it was just flowery text for "in the beginning, there was nothing. Then the Goddesses showed up."

As for the "origin of evil", well, everyone in Hyrule has a spiritual power of some sort. Some force to call their own. Maybe anyone who becomes self-actualized enough can gain benevolent spiritual powers, and anyone who becomes too far gone begins the transition to demonhood. Some certain sidequests and such seem to suggest this is the case (ahem, Skulletas, Poe Souls, Ghost Ships).

The use of the word Twilight is confusing to me, personaly. Twilight is just lesser light. Yin Yang are supposed to be complimentary opposites. It would be like instead of a black and white Yin Yang you had a gray and white. Or instead of male and female you had male and some guy with man-boobs. I don't find it as a readily understood dichtomy. Light and Shadow make more sense as both are opposites but can compliment each other and both can be seen as benevolent parts of the Goddess' grand design. Besides the whole Light/Twilight thing only appears in TP whereas Light and Shadow appear [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img]. I see Darkness as something more akin to Void where nothing can exist, not even Shadow. It can also be an embalance of Light and Shadow that causes the relationship between the two forces to grow hostile.


Twilight and Shadow are the same thing, as said above, even given the same word in the Japanese. For the most part, "Twilight's" involvement is more or less a western construction, save for really important aspects, like "Twilight Princess."

Even if it was, it'd only go to show that the Goddesses are so opposed to darkness and so apparently benevolent that even the other side of light is another form of it.

#9 Fin

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 11:19 AM

Argh, I was editting this extra bit into my last post when my net connection cut out.

There's a few other things I didn't mention that I've been wondering about, related to the terms majo, majin and majuu. I hope you don't mind if I ask a lot of questions. >.> I'm mostly interested in these things for their own sake, but anything that might relate to Zelda is also good.

I've seen majo translated as witch, but I get the impression that it's a type of witch, not just a generic term. If so, what distinguishes majo from other kinds of witches?

I've gathered that of the two spellings for majin, 魔人 denotes a magical creature like a sorceror or a genie, whereas 魔神 is a demon. However, I've also heard that the former term can also mean demon. Does this mean that 魔人 are demons who can use magic, as opposed to 魔神? Or are there some other differences between the two that I should be aware of?

And finally, I noticed in one of Jumbie's translation footnotes that during the Majuu Ganon battle Midna makes some remarks on how the divine and demon beasts are facing off, which apparently references similar battles in Japanese mythology. Do you have any examples of these? And does the use of the term Demon Beast in the original name for the Forsaken Fortress imply anything interesting, or is it just a reference to Ganon or the Helmaroc King?

If you help me get my head around some of this stuff I'd be grateful. ;d

Edited by Fin, 03 February 2010 - 07:56 AM.


#10 CID Farwin

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 05:33 PM

Well, here's my two cents with limited Japanese knowledge!

Bear in mind that our western concepts of "demon" and "god" don't really fit with the Japanese meanings. For example demons, as I understand, while usually being associated with evil or dark powers, aren't necessarily always evil.

Anyway, Majin. 人 means person, and 神 means kami (God) so I would differentiate it as 魔人 being a demon-person whereas 魔神 would be more demon-god. Majo, I assume you mean 魔女, which would be demon-woman, with 女 meaning woman, so yeah, a witch, I guess. As for the difference? I assume a Majo would be more like Twinrova(No offence, Rova, if you're reading this), as opposed to, say, the old hag at the potion shop.

Actually, now I'm curious as to how the Japanese describes them.

Anyway, that's what I know. I hope I didn't confuse you too much. If it sounds like I don't know what I'm talking about, that's probably because I don't. And if I do sound like I know what I'm talking about, well, I don't. Anyone who does know what they're talking about can feel free to correct me.

Edited by CID Farwin, 02 February 2010 - 05:34 PM.


#11 Fin

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 07:48 AM

I was already aware of the kanji meanings, but thanks all the same. I was more curious about any relevant mythological references that could give me a better idea of the true meanings of the terms.

For example demons, as I understand, while usually being associated with evil or dark powers, aren't necessarily always evil.


That fits with what I've seen. I know the kanji for demon can also be translated as magic, and in some tales Mazoku aren't neccesarily evil (only example I know of that comes to mind are the Mazoku of Chrono Trigger, who are more like another race of beings, with the same potential as humans for good or evil.)

#12 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 12:43 PM

CID said everything I planned to say.

#13 Fin

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 01:12 PM

Ah, okay then. I guess I was way overthinking things. Thanks for the help, guys. ;d

Edited by Fin, 03 February 2010 - 03:33 PM.





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