24 replies to this topic

[ganonlord6000]

I have thought of a new timeline recently, which places TMC, FS, and FSA before OOT. Why? In 2004 Aonuma stated that FS was the earliest tale and that FSA was a sequel to it. Sequels don't have any games inbetween. I am beginning to think that all 3 FS games occur before OOT. It is better for the FS games to take place in succesion to aviod speculation of how Vaati was forgotten after TMC, and remembered in time for FS and FSA. Zelda Wii might help with this. It could show the return and death of FSA Ganon. FSA also implies that there wasn't a major threat before Vaati. his era could end in FSA, and the eras of the Ganons can begin. Does anyone else think this is possible?
(I know there was a thread on this earlier this year, but I started my own because 1. That thread is a few months old, and 2. I don't want to confuse people with the Japanese name).

[Nerushi]

Hmm. Yes I'd say so. I see no real reason why it couldn't work. Of course, people want FSA to be directly connected to ALTTP and thus places it post-OoT. Depends on how well you think FSA sets up for ALTTP.

[ganonlord6000]

Hmm. Yes I'd say so. I see no real reason why it couldn't work. Of course, people want FSA to be directly connected to ALTTP and thus places it post-OoT. Depends on how well you think FSA sets up for ALTTP.

It tells a better story of the origins of the first Ganon.

[MikePetersSucks]

I tried this order out before, and it didn't really work all that well. Actually, it kind've creates monumental plotholes if you think too hard on it.

[Crazy Penguin]

Well that's freaky, I haven't posted here in months and I was just now about to make this exact same topic.

As much as I dislike the idea of anything other than Ocarina of Time being the first story chronologically, this really does seem to make sense.

Is there any reason it CAN'T work?

In FSA the Gerudos are peaceful and talk about Ganondorf as though they have known him since his birth, and have recently banished him.

In Ocarina of Time the Gerudos are thieves and Ganondorf is their king.

It seems as though FSA was Ganondorf's first attempt at power, he broke the rules of the Gerudos, claimed the ancient trident, released Vaati and caused a huge ruckus before getting trapped inside the Four Sword.

Then sometime afterwards he escaped (if Vaati could do it of his own accord in Four Swords then so can Ganon), used his newfound powers to take over the Gerudo tribe and used his leadership status to try and make good with Hyrule's royal family in order to gain access to the secrets of the Triforce, as seen in Ocarina of Time.

I can only think of three possible problems:

1. The king of Hyrule thinks he can trust Ganondorf? Could take place enough time after FSA for people to have forgotten his shennanigans, or maybe he claimed to have reformed and the King was trying to be diplomatic. And FSA happening after OOT has to assume that everybody has forgotten the name Ganon.

2. The Dark World in FSA. What's the deal with that again? So many different translations. How does it relate to Ocarina of Time's Sacred Realm?

3. Didn't Zelda call Ganon an "ancient demon reborn" during the end boss battle? What was that in the Japanese version?

[Nerushi]

1. The king of Hyrule thinks he can trust Ganondorf? Could take place enough time after FSA for people to have forgotten his shennanigans, or maybe he claimed to have reformed and the King was trying to be diplomatic. And FSA happening after OOT has to assume that everybody has forgotten the name Ganon.

Better yet, the Gerudo lack of presence after OoT ( in TP and WW ) needs not be accounted for if FSA happens before OoT.

2. The Dark World in FSA. What's the deal with that again? So many different translations. How does it relate to Ocarina of Time's Sacred Realm?

They're called either yami no sekai ( literally means the dark world ) or makai. I don't think they can be related to the one in OoT, and not much suggest they are either. It's more likely they have something to do with the Trident, as it gives Ganon his title of yami no maou ( King of Darkness ), which suggest he could probably spread darkness ( which he does ). Plus one of the knight says Ganon threw them into makai using his trident, I think. Unless the trident is somehow related to the Sacred Realm, I don't see a connection with OoT.

3. Didn't Zelda call Ganon an "ancient demon reborn" during the end boss battle? What was that in the Japanese version?

闇の王…　太古から　よみがえった　魔の邪器（じゃき）、トライデントを手にした男！！
King of Darkness… The man who took the Trident, the demon's evil device (ja-ki) revived from ancient times!!
King of Darkness, ancient demon reborn. The wielder of the trident!!

Essentially, its the trident which was revived from ancient times.

[Crazy Penguin]

Better yet, the Gerudo lack of presence after OoT ( in TP and WW ) needs not be accounted for if FSA happens before OoT.

Indeed!

[They're called either yami no sekai ( literally means the dark world ) or makai. I don't think they can be related to the one in OoT, and not much suggest they are either. It's more likely they have something to do with the Trident, as it gives Ganon his title of yami no maou ( King of Darkness ), which suggest he could probably spread darkness ( which he does ). Plus one of the knight says Ganon threw them into makai using his trident, I think. Unless the trident is somehow related to the Sacred Realm, I don't see a connection with OoT.

That's one of the attacks Ganon uses against Link(s) in the end battle.

3. Didn't Zelda call Ganon an "ancient demon reborn" during the end boss battle? What was that in the Japanese version?

闇の王…　太古から　よみがえった　魔の邪器（じゃき）、トライデントを手にした男！！
King of Darkness… The man who took the Trident, the demon's evil device (ja-ki) revived from ancient times!!
King of Darkness, ancient demon reborn. The wielder of the trident!!

Essentially, its the trident which was revived from ancient times.

Ah, a mere translation snafu then.

Well, that settles it. As far as I'm concerned FSA precedes OOT, until I hear a compelling argument against. (Or until the next Zelda game completely contradicts this notion, which if it really does tell the origin of the Master Sword and thus predate OOT it may very well!)

And I've tended to avoid doing this, but I haven't posted in months, so what the hell:

Child OOT timeline: (TMC)(FS/FSA)(OOT-MM)(TP)(ALTTP-LA)(OOS/OOA)(TLOZ/AOL)
Adult OOT timeline: (TMC)(FS/FSA)(OOT)(TWW-PH)(ST)

Edited by Crazy Penguin, 23 December 2009 - 07:00 PM.

[Nerushi]

Well, that settles it. As far as I'm concerned FSA precedes OOT, until I hear a compelling argument against. (Or until the next Zelda game completely contradicts this notion, which if it really does tell the origin of the Master Sword and thus predate OOT it may very well!)

I am still waiting.

Child OOT timeline: (TMC)(FS/FSA)(OOT-MM)(TP)(ALTTP-LA)(OOS/OOA)(TLOZ/AOL)
Adult OOT timeline: (TMC)(FS/FSA)(OOT)(TWW-PH)(ST)

Wow, it's identical to the timeline I've been advocating since summer or so.

CT:TMC-FS/FSA-OOT/MM-TP-ALTTP/LA-OOX-LOZ/AOL
AT:TMC-FS/FSA-OOT-WW/PH-ST

Great minds think alike, eh?

[Jarsh]

I think the FS series could definitely happen before OoT; it's just FSA's possible connection to ALttP that really bothers me. Actually, I'm not really sure what to think of the FS series pertaining to any placement at the moment.

[Nerushi]

What part of FSA is it that makes an connection to ALTTP so covetable anyway? Ganon? Aye. I thinks yami no maou Ganon from FSA is ALTTP yami no maou Ganon - despite there begin games apart. This is a very much possible scenario since Ganon was sealed in the Four Sword, essentialy put in hiatus until whenever he is needed, which would be in ALTTP. This flows well with the notion that the Gerudo tribe as a whole isn't seen after OoT, among other.

Any fancy saying that Ganon must be an incarnation of a previous one, thus two can't exist at the same time, is just ridiculous without any basis. The only condition for Ganondorfs existance has ever only been that there is a Gerudo Tribe to give birth to him. Two person having the same name would hardly be consider a coincidence if they're from the same tribe, possible with a namning tradition for their special male born ever 100 year.

[Crazy Penguin]

One of the earliest conventions of the series was that despite there being multiple Links and Zeldas there was always just one Ganon. Four Swords Adventures was the only one that seemed to muddy the waters there, but taken as additional back-story to the guy we see in Ocarina of Time it's workable. All that's needed is for Ganon to break free of the Four Sword and to take control of the Gerudo tribe.

[Altum]

The problem with making FSA before OoT, to me, is that Ganondorf wasn't really viewed as entirely evil in the beginning of OoT. If anything, the Gerudo seemed to fit the "mysterious foreigner" stereotype in that game and Ganondorf was pretty much trusted and involved in rebuilding Hyrule after the civil war(s). I seriously doubt they'd be that trusting if he shares the name of some dude who was involved with screwing over Hyrule previously. Plus, at least to me, it feels kinda sloppy/awkward to have one Ganondorf sealed within the Four Sword and then another Ganondorf doing the same exact shit then getting sealed, and no one caught it til it was too late even the second time around.

It's not that it couldn't work. It just doesn't seem right to me.

[Fin]

I've been toying with this timeline since I read that interview. I'm not sure I like it too much - it's obvious FSA was going to directly precede LttP as the Imprisoning War before Miyamoto forced them to simplify the plot, and I'm not sure why they'd feel the need to move the Four Swords games to before OoT in the timeline just because of this. On the other hand, word of God.

[Nerushi]

I seriously doubt they'd be that trusting if he shares the name of some dude who was involved with screwing over Hyrule previously.

Are we to say that they would forget Ganondorfs name after TP then? The Red Maiden, Zelda and the whole bunch seem to never have heard of the name before and is at least to say suprised that their culprit would be a man from the desert.

Plus, at least to me, it feels kinda sloppy/awkward to have one Ganondorf sealed within the Four Sword and then another Ganondorf doing the same exact shit then getting sealed, and no one caught it til it was too late even the second time around.

FSA Ganon has to get sealed either way, and even if FSA happens rigth before ALTTP it would be an sloppy situation.

[Altum]

Are we to say that they would forget Ganondorfs name after TP then? The Red Maiden, Zelda and the whole bunch seem to never have heard of the name before and is at least to say suprised that their culprit would be a man from the desert.

I personally don't like FSA in the canon timeline at all. I think it was a shitty attempt to reconnect the old games with the new games that ended up having plotholes anyway. The FS trilogy fits decently with the old games, but doesn't feel to connect very well with the newer ones. If I were to place it somewhere, though, I feel it just fits better bridging the gap between the old games and the new games.

FSA Ganon has to get sealed either way, and even if FSA happens rigth before ALTTP it would be an sloppy situation.

Not really, because I believe including Ganon in FSA pushed the Palace of the Four Swords into canon.

[Crazy Penguin]

The problem with making FSA before OoT, to me, is that Ganondorf wasn't really viewed as entirely evil in the beginning of OoT. If anything, the Gerudo seemed to fit the "mysterious foreigner" stereotype in that game and Ganondorf was pretty much trusted and involved in rebuilding Hyrule after the civil war(s). I seriously doubt they'd be that trusting if he shares the name of some dude who was involved with screwing over Hyrule previously.

This is a little problematic, but seeing as we'd have the same problem the other way around (how come nobody knows who Ganondorf is if FSA takes place after Twilight Princess?) it becomes something of a moot point.

[Nerushi]

I personally don't like FSA in the canon timeline at all. I think it was a shitty attempt to reconnect the old games with the new games that ended up having plotholes anyway. The FS trilogy fits decently with the old games, but doesn't feel to connect very well with the newer ones. If I were to place it somewhere, though, I feel it just fits better bridging the gap between the old games and the new games.

I agree. However, it is to our understanding that FSA was made to serve as the Seal War, or at least that is implied through the removed quotes of sages, lost languages and MS. Thanks to Miyamoto's teatabling of the game, that is no longer case, So I don't see any direct need for FSA to occur before ALTTP. Particulary when Aonuma himself calls FS the oldest tale and this its sequel.

Not really, because I believe including Ganon in FSA pushed the Palace of the Four Swords into canon.

Me too. How would this be any more sloppy if FSA happens before or after OoT? In that case, TMC before OoT separated from the rest of the vaati games is just as sloppy.

[MikePetersSucks]

Are we to say that they would forget Ganondorfs name after TP then? The Red Maiden, Zelda and the whole bunch seem to never have heard of the name before and is at least to say suprised that their culprit would be a man from the desert.

They have had a few centuries of Vaati trouble inbetween, and Ganondorf never entered the public eye in the events of TP, only it's backstory.

[ganonlord6000]

Well that's freaky, I haven't posted here in months and I was just now about to make this exact same topic.

As much as I dislike the idea of anything other than Ocarina of Time being the first story chronologically, this really does seem to make sense.

Is there any reason it CAN'T work?

In FSA the Gerudos are peaceful and talk about Ganondorf as though they have known him since his birth, and have recently banished him.

In Ocarina of Time the Gerudos are thieves and Ganondorf is their king.

It seems as though FSA was Ganondorf's first attempt at power, he broke the rules of the Gerudos, claimed the ancient trident, released Vaati and caused a huge ruckus before getting trapped inside the Four Sword.

Then sometime afterwards he escaped (if Vaati could do it of his own accord in Four Swords then so can Ganon), used his newfound powers to take over the Gerudo tribe and used his leadership status to try and make good with Hyrule's royal family in order to gain access to the secrets of the Triforce, as seen in Ocarina of Time.

I can only think of three possible problems:

1. The king of Hyrule thinks he can trust Ganondorf? Could take place enough time after FSA for people to have forgotten his shennanigans, or maybe he claimed to have reformed and the King was trying to be diplomatic. And FSA happening after OOT has to assume that everybody has forgotten the name Ganon.

2. The Dark World in FSA. What's the deal with that again? So many different translations. How does it relate to Ocarina of Time's Sacred Realm?

3. Didn't Zelda call Ganon an "ancient demon reborn" during the end boss battle? What was that in the Japanese version?

Reason one is easy to solve. FSA Ganon isn't OOT Ganon. FSA Ganon might die in Zelda Wii if we see the birth of the Master Sword (which the fairy girl looking exactly like the MS seems to imply). That might addsome proof to the old ALTTP manual. The MS was forged centuries before OOT. I have tried placing FSA in a few places: the trditional before ALTTP, before LOZ (some fo you might remember this), and before OOT. FSA-ALTTP seems troublesom because FSA = IW (or close to it) would make FSA part of the triforce story. Aonuma himself has stated that the FS games are not a part of the triforce story. He seems to be impling that FSA goes before OOT. And I doubt the FS is first could have been wrong when he said it (TMC was released a while later, and takes place before FS) because FSA was already out in Japan. He was right about the split timeline (every game since TP seems to say this). So he was basically saying in that interview that FS and FSA take place before the other games. This would end all TMC related issues once and for all if people read the entire line.

[Pinecove]

2. The Dark World in FSA. What's the deal with that again? So many different translations. How does it relate to Ocarina of Time's Sacred Realm?

I'm pretty sure the Dark World of FSA isn't the sacred Realm. It may have been at one point but right now (until we can get better translations) it seems to be caused by the Dark mirror.

They're called either yami no sekai ( literally means the dark world ) or makai. I don't think they can be related to the one in OoT, and not much suggest they are either. It's more likely they have something to do with the Trident, as it gives Ganon his title of yami no maou ( King of Darkness ), which suggest he could probably spread darkness ( which he does ). Plus one of the knight says Ganon threw them into makai using his trident, I think. Unless the trident is somehow related to the Sacred Realm, I don't see a connection with OoT.

Actually Yami no sekai literally means "the world's darkness". It's used in OoS and OoA aswell. FSA's Dark world is ALSO refered to as (credit to MPS here) "Sekaiju Kurai."

Also I'm not sure if anyone will care but FSA Ganon and ALttP Ganon have different origins. ALttP says Ganon was born when he touched the Triforce. FSA says Ganon was born when he touched the Trident.

[Nerushi]

Actually Yami no sekai literally means "the world's darkness". It's used in OoS and OoA aswell. FSA's Dark world is ALSO refered to as (credit to MPS here) "Sekaiju Kurai."

No, I am positive. Yami no sekai means the dark world. Sekai no yami would be what you are refering to.

Also I'm not sure if anyone will care but FSA Ganon and ALttP Ganon have different origins. ALttP says Ganon was born when he touched the Triforce. FSA says Ganon was born when he touched the Trident.

ALTTP states no such thing.

[Average Gamer]

ALttP says Ganon was born when he touched the Triforce.

That was figurative. The SNES manual said that Ganondorf's nickname was Ganon even before he touched the Triforce, and the line is just meant to say "and so the lowly thief became the mighty king." Ganon in FSA didn't become a different person either; he just became a truly powerful threat.

[Sign of Justice]

^Well Ganon became the Yami no Maou in FSA.

He was a thief when he got the Triforce:

Then, the one who again discovered the sacred land was the thief called Ganondrof.

Imo I'd say it's unlikely for the thief Ganondorf to become the Yami no Maou, then get sealed, be a thief again all of a sudden, then become the Yami no Maou again after getting into SR/getting the Triforce.

That's just me, though.

I fucking hate FSA.

[Average Gamer]

Well Ganon became the Yami no Maou in FSA.

I know, I was just explaining the ALttP situation as it was in 1991. Because of FSA and its ties to ALttP, Ganondorf became a mighty king when he claimed the Trident, not the Triforce. The Triforce simply made him more powerful and dangerous.

[Pinecove]

That was figurative. The SNES manual said that Ganondorf's nickname was Ganon even before he touched the Triforce, and the line is just meant to say "and so the lowly thief became the mighty king." Ganon in FSA didn't become a different person either; he just became a truly powerful threat.

My bad.