34 replies to this topic

[Person]

Since FSA confirms that the Gerudo are nomadic, I think they're just off in another part of the desert. I've also heard it convincingly argued that Telma might be a Gerudo, or at least have Gerudo blood in her.

[Nerushi]

Well, let's see...

In TP-
Fact:
Their leader was to be executed.
The desert path was closed off.
They're nowhere to be seen.
There's an execution ground in their desert.

Assumptation:
They were Ganondorfs band of thieves ( based on their description in OoT ) and aided Ganondorf in his 'outrageous' doing, as desribed by Aonuma. Possible an invasion on Hyrule and Temple of Time. Normaly, invaders aren't taken lightly... So it's logical to assume they're taken care of...

Even though they might have been 'nomadic', the rest just doesn't seem to fall in on FSA...

Edited by Nerushi, 03 September 2009 - 02:56 PM.

[Person]

That theory makes the Hylians out to be genocidal maniacs, though. Hardly the trait associated with the "good guys." I doubt Link would tell the government to execute all the Gerudo when he had met Nabooru already.

[Nerushi]

That theory makes the Hylians out to be genocidal maniacs, though. Hardly the trait associated with the "good guys." I doubt Link would tell the government to execute all the Gerudo when he had met Nabooru already.

Because everything has to be black & white? Like I said, it was no more a genocide than it was defending themself from invaders, under the influence of a powerful evil magic using greedy thief.

[Person]

That theory makes the Hylians out to be genocidal maniacs, though. Hardly the trait associated with the "good guys." I doubt Link would tell the government to execute all the Gerudo when he had met Nabooru already.

Because everything has to be black & white? Like I said, it was no more a genocide than it was defending themself from invaders, under the influence of a powerful evil magic using greedy thief.

Except that we have no reason whatsoever to believe that all of the Gerudo followed Ganondorf. Nabooru didn't in OoT, and the whole tribe ostracized him in FSA. Ganon's main armies also never seem to consist of Gerudo. He uses other races like Moblins and Darknuts to do that.

[Raien]

If the Gerudo are alive in ALttP, then they're clearly not extinct in TP.

Oh dear. Now look what I've done... I've ended your debate! Oh well, better luck next time. Cheerio!

[Masamune]

Like the Zoras, the Gerudo evolved...

INTO THIS

[Nerushi]

Except that we have no reason whatsoever to believe that all of the Gerudo followed Ganondorf. Nabooru didn't in OoT, and the whole tribe ostracized him in FSA. Ganon's main armies also never seem to consist of Gerudo. He uses other races like Moblins and Darknuts to do that.

The majority of the Gerudo adored Ganondorf in OoT. The rest of them, for example Nabooru were easily turned around. Since TP Ganondorf is OoT Ganondorf and not FSA Ganondorf, I think that the former conclusion means more.
Ganondorfs follower in the TP BS was called a band of thieves. They're repeatedly called just that in OoT, and I don't think I'm wrong for thinking that they followed Ganondorf, even into death.

Btw, you say they where Nomadic and might just be off in another part of the desert. Yet the desert in TP is know the Gerudo Desert. Why would they be out of their own Desert?

[Person]

Except that we have no reason whatsoever to believe that all of the Gerudo followed Ganondorf. Nabooru didn't in OoT, and the whole tribe ostracized him in FSA. Ganon's main armies also never seem to consist of Gerudo. He uses other races like Moblins and Darknuts to do that.

The majority of the Gerudo adored Ganondorf in OoT. The rest of them, for example Nabooru were easily turned around. Since TP Ganondorf is OoT Ganondorf and not FSA Ganondorf, I think that the former conclusion means more.
Ganondorfs follower in the TP BS was called a band of thieves. They're repeatedly called just that in OoT, and I don't think I'm wrong for thinking that they followed Ganondorf, even into death.

Btw, you say they where Nomadic and might just be off in another part of the desert. Yet the desert in TP is know the Gerudo Desert. Why would they be out of their own Desert?

They're nomadic, but they just tend to stick around in the same desert. Most of the oases we see in the desert in OoT have dried up by TP. Maybe they moved on to where there is more water.

The Gerudo also didn't adore Ganondorf in OoT, either. Otherwise, why would they be at the ranch celebrating his defeat? Yes Ganondorf is described as the leader of a band of thieves, but that's his origin. Once he becomes King of Darkness, he seems to stop caring about his people. Note that his original backstory in ALttP had him kill all of his followers in order to get the Triforce. I think the Gerudo would be a bit resentful after that.

[Masamune]

To play devil's advocate, Twilight Princess is believed to take place in the Child Timeline. In the Adult Timeline, the Gerudo got to see exactly how evil Ganondorf was and became fed up with him. In the Child Timeline, however, Ganondorf is still sneaking around trying to get his way and has done little to incriminate himself (aside from what he did to the Kokiri, Zora, and Gorons). The Gerudo would have been more closely aligned to Ganondorf prior to his rise of evil, making it possible they would have sided with him in a conflict.

[Person]

To play devil's advocate, Twilight Princess is believed to take place in the Child Timeline. In the Adult Timeline, the Gerudo got to see exactly how evil Ganondorf was and became fed up with him. In the Child Timeline, however, Ganondorf is still sneaking around trying to get his way and has done little to incriminate himself (aside from what he did to the Kokiri, Zora, and Gorons). The Gerudo would have been more closely aligned to Ganondorf prior to his rise of evil, making it possible they would have sided with him in a conflict.

From what we see on the Child side, however, Nabooru loathes Ganondorf. Since she is the second-in-command, isn't it reasonable that she would be able to persuade some Gerudo to go over to her side and not follow Ganondorf? Aveil likely would go this way, too. She's the one who allowed Link to join the Gerudo in the first place.

[Nerushi]

From what we see on the Child side, however, Nabooru loathes Ganondorf. Since she is the second-in-command, isn't it reasonable that she would be able to persuade some Gerudo to go over to her side and not follow Ganondorf? Aveil likely would go this way, too. She's the one who allowed Link to join the Gerudo in the first place.

From what I saw from the Child side, she fell prey to The Twinrova.

She's just a little girl, but she commands a lot of respect among the Gerudo,
Kotake...

Maybe we should make her work for the great Ganondorf for a little while
longer!
Ho ho ho!

Then we should brainwash her again!
Hee hee hee!

I think her fate on the CT is quite doomed, as the Twinrova survived.

Edited by Nerushi, 04 September 2009 - 12:35 PM.

[Person]

I always interpreted the Child Timeline as beginning before Link ever took the Master Sword and did the whole time travel thing, so Nabooru would have never broken into the temple and tried to get the gauntlets in the first place. Of course, even if Nabooru was doomed, Aveil would likely oppose Ganondorf. We have precedence from FSA that says that at least some Gerudo wouldn't have followed him.

And even if Ganondorf and his followers were executed in TP, we have no precedent to conclude that the entire race was wiped out. That would be like saying that all Germans agreed with Hitler in World War II, even though there were some trying to overthrow him, much like Nabooru with Ganondorf. It essentially is an inferred holocaust, only that the perpetrators would be the people we're supposed to consider the good guys. I hardly think that that's what the creators intended.

[Average Gamer]

I think that the Gerudo aren't seen in TP simply because we never visit the place where they live; the Gerudo Valley. We only go into the desert itself in TP, and seeing as how the Gerudo thought that it was a trial just to reach the Spirit Temple, I doubt that they'd want to live in the desert itself.

While Ganondorf did have Gerudo followers, he also used a variety of monsters. If OoT is any indication, Ganondorf preferred to use the monsters as his main minions (at least during his reign, though the enemies in the Young Link dungeons may have also been from his reserves). Also, as others have stated, not all of the Gerudo favored Ganondorf; he would have dissenters even if Nabooru had been brainwashed.

Because we aren't shown proof that the Gerudo died out in TP, Ganondorf apparently preferred to use monsters/wasn't dependent on the Gerudo, and Gerudo other than Nabooru disapproved of Ganondorf's methods, I sincerely doubt that the Gerudo were killed off on the Child Timeline.

Regarding the Hylians possibly killing off a people, I'll play the Devil's Advocate for a second and point out the Shadow Temple. Whether or not they're good guys, the Hylians and Sheikah could apparently be very messed up.

[Nerushi]

I always interpreted the Child Timeline as beginning before Link ever took the Master Sword and did the whole time travel thing, so Nabooru would have never broken into the temple and tried to get the gauntlets in the first place. Of course, even if Nabooru was doomed, Aveil would likely oppose Ganondorf. We have precedence from FSA that says that at least some Gerudo wouldn't have followed him.

I agree that Link went before he ever pulled the MS. However, I belive Nabooru would have went there either way. Because as you say she dispised Ganondorf. Also, The Gerudo in FSA had precedence against Ganondorf for something HE had done and nothing any previous had done.

And even if Ganondorf and his followers were executed in TP, we have no precedent to conclude that the entire race was wiped out. That would be like saying that all Germans agreed with Hitler in World War II, even though there were some trying to overthrow him, much like Nabooru with Ganondorf. It essentially is an inferred holocaust, only that the perpetrators would be the people we're supposed to consider the good guys. I hardly think that that's what the creators intended.

Whatever was intended, The Gerudo is gone. I am just saying my opinion based on the desert enviroment...

I think that the Gerudo aren't seen in TP simply because we never visit the place where they live; the Gerudo Valley. We only go into the desert itself in TP, and seeing as how the Gerudo thought that it was a trial just to reach the Spirit Temple, I doubt that they'd want to live in the desert itself.

But the desert path had been said to become impassable. How would they survive there?

While Ganondorf did have Gerudo followers, he also used a variety of monsters. If OoT is any indication, Ganondorf preferred to use the monsters as his main minions (at least during his reign, though the enemies in the Young Link dungeons may have also been from his reserves). Also, as others have stated, not all of the Gerudo favored Ganondorf; he would have dissenters even if Nabooru had been brainwashed.

Monster where never refeared to as a band of thieves. Gerudo was.

Because we aren't shown proof that the Gerudo died out in TP, Ganondorf apparently preferred to use monsters/wasn't dependent on the Gerudo, and Gerudo other than Nabooru disapproved of Ganondorf's methods, I sincerely doubt that the Gerudo were killed off on the Child Timeline.

We aren't shown proof that they're alive either. And the whole desert reeks death with an execution ground in the middle of it.

Even if the Gerudo weren't killed off, I think I would favor the suggestion that they just left somewhere else. I don't think they would be in such good term with the Hylians after years of being thieves and bandits.

[SOAP]

I think that the Gerudo aren't seen in TP simply because we never visit the place where they live; the Gerudo Valley. We only go into the desert itself in TP, and seeing as how the Gerudo thought that it was a trial just to reach the Spirit Temple, I doubt that they'd want to live in the desert itself.

While Ganondorf did have Gerudo followers, he also used a variety of monsters. If OoT is any indication, Ganondorf preferred to use the monsters as his main minions (at least during his reign, though the enemies in the Young Link dungeons may have also been from his reserves). Also, as others have stated, not all of the Gerudo favored Ganondorf; he would have dissenters even if Nabooru had been brainwashed.

Because we aren't shown proof that the Gerudo died out in TP, Ganondorf apparently preferred to use monsters/wasn't dependent on the Gerudo, and Gerudo other than Nabooru disapproved of Ganondorf's methods, I sincerely doubt that the Gerudo were killed off on the Child Timeline.

Regarding the Hylians possibly killing off a people, I'll play the Devil's Advocate for a second and point out the Shadow Temple. Whether or not they're good guys, the Hylians and Sheikah could apparently be very messed up.

I'm not going to turn this into a pointless geography debate but it's not inconceivable that the Arbiter's Grounds is the Gerudo Valley. Even if it's not, think this logically though: The Gerudo are a race of females that depend on mating with outsiders to progenerate. Close off the Gerudo Valley from Hyrule, and the Gerudo die off.

I think it's combination of three scenarios. Those still loyal to Ganondorf were executed at Arbiter's Ground. Those loyal to Hyrule aided in the capture of their sisters and Ganondorf and subsequently defected to Hyrule where they eventually faded into the Hylain gene pool (ie Telma's possible Gerudo ancestry). A third scenario is those who were neutral wandered further into the desert, seeking new fertile lands with men to mate with once Hyrule proper became inaccessible. Either way the Gerudo are gone so I wouldn't put a game with Gerudos in it after TP. That's just me though.

Edited by SOAP, 05 September 2009 - 06:53 AM.

[Egann]

Take ONE look at Telma in TP and tell me that she isn't supposed to have at least a LITTLE Gerudo blood in her if she isn't pure-bred. The yellow eyes, the white lips... Sure she is MASSIVELY overweight as far as Gerudo are supposed to be, but that's a dietary thing.

Personally, I think that the Gerudo were a splinter bloodline from the Hylian norm fom a time before the Zelda timeline began, then after OoT, the Gerudo left the dessert and slowly re-integrated with the Hylians. I don't know enough about the Zelda timeline to pinpoint the time-period specifically. If my theory is accurate, we could even use the measure of how close to integration the two races are to order the timeline....

Edited by Egann, 05 September 2009 - 08:16 AM.

[Khallos]

Take ONE look at Telma in TP and tell me that she isn't supposed to have at least a LITTLE Gerudo blood in her if she isn't pure-bred. The yellow eyes, the white lips... Sure she is MASSIVELY overweight as far as Gerudo are supposed to be, but that's a dietary thing.

Personally, I think that the Gerudo were a splinter bloodline from the Hylian norm fom a time before the Zelda timeline began, then after OoT, the Gerudo left the dessert and slowly re-integrated with the Hylians. I don't know enough about the Zelda timeline to pinpoint the time-period specifically. If my theory is accurate, we could even use the measure of how close to integration the two races are to order the timeline....

Left the dessert? More like took it over and never stopped eating.

Sorry, had to be done...


But yes, I still hold that Telma is supposed to have Gerudo blood, it would also fit well with her general gung-hoishness at driving all the way to Kakariko fully aware of the danger outside the city walls. I doubt that she is 'pure blood', but of course, almost no Gerudo really are what with the lack of Gerudo men. Mass genocide was incredibly hard to pull off before the modern era in our world; magic or not it shouldn't be easy in the Kingdom of Hyrule either.

[Masamune]

There's no bearing for this, but I've entertained the idea that the male Gerudo's main function was to strengthen the Gerudo bloodline. Normally they would reproduce with Hylians and magically always have girls (except for one boy). The magical Gerudo boy would be 100% Gerudo genetically (note how Nabooru has orange skin, Ganondorf has green) and he would effectively strengthen the genetic makeup of the Gerudo race, working to purge the Hylian genetics that had been passed down prior to his birth.

Now, OoT Ganondorf decides to be a jackass and he's killed (or something) and that balance is thrown off. The end result is that the Gerudos end up being absorbed into the Hylian population as their bloodline dies out.

[SOAP]

Take ONE look at Telma in TP and tell me that she isn't supposed to have at least a LITTLE Gerudo blood in her if she isn't pure-bred. The yellow eyes, the white lips... Sure she is MASSIVELY overweight as far as Gerudo are supposed to be, but that's a dietary thing.

Personally, I think that the Gerudo were a splinter bloodline from the Hylian norm fom a time before the Zelda timeline began, then after OoT, the Gerudo left the dessert and slowly re-integrated with the Hylians. I don't know enough about the Zelda timeline to pinpoint the time-period specifically. If my theory is accurate, we could even use the measure of how close to integration the two races are to order the timeline....

But but but that implies evilution and aren't you're a Creationist.

I think Gerudo and Hylians are just two magically specialized kinds of Human.

There's no bearing for this, but I've entertained the idea that the male Gerudo's main function was to strengthen the Gerudo bloodline. Normally they would reproduce with Hylians and magically always have girls (except for one boy). The magical Gerudo boy would be 100% Gerudo genetically (note how Nabooru has orange skin, Ganondorf has green) and he would effectively strengthen the genetic makeup of the Gerudo race, working to purge the Hylian genetics that had been passed down prior to his birth.

Now, OoT Ganondorf decides to be a jackass and he's killed (or something) and that balance is thrown off. The end result is that the Gerudos end up being absorbed into the Hylian population as their bloodline dies out.

I've entertained many ideas about Gerudo genealogy. Not many of them pleasant. :/

[Wolf O'Donnell]

There's no bearing for this, but I've entertained the idea that the male Gerudo's main function was to strengthen the Gerudo bloodline. Normally they would reproduce with Hylians and magically always have girls (except for one boy). The magical Gerudo boy would be 100% Gerudo genetically (note how Nabooru has orange skin, Ganondorf has green) and he would effectively strengthen the genetic makeup of the Gerudo race, working to purge the Hylian genetics that had been passed down prior to his birth.

Now, OoT Ganondorf decides to be a jackass and he's killed (or something) and that balance is thrown off. The end result is that the Gerudos end up being absorbed into the Hylian population as their bloodline dies out.

And we get nerdy boys obsessed with chicken-bodied Oocoo like Shad.

[MikePetersSucks]

Nothing happened to the Gerudo. They just scurry off before the camera focuses on them, so they're always behind your player POV the entire time. They're fucking with Link.

[Showsni]

Asking what happened to the Gerudo in TP is a little like asking why Link never goes to the toilet. It's just a game, they haven't explained every eventuality. Maybe they're just all off on their summer holidays; we've no way of knowing if no one ever mentions it.

[Average Gamer]

But the desert path had been said to become impassable. How would they survive there?

In Ocarina of Time the Gerudo apparently destroyed the bridge leading out of the valley with no worries. I always figured that they had more ways to get out of the desert that outsiders wouldn't know of. Jumping to the bottom of the valley as a kid in OoT also reveals that the Gerudo can get to the little cave down there (and bring a cow with them), so they presumably know more about their homeland than a Hylian would.

Monster where never refeared to as a band of thieves. Gerudo was.

However, considering Ganondorf's variety of minions and his apparent preferences, his TP assault may not have been dependent on the Gerudo. Ganondorf may have even had Hylian supporters, seeing as how Flat and Sharp initially mistake Link for one of Ganondorf's men.

We aren't shown proof that they're alive either.

However, as I said, we never go to the area where the Gerudo lived, not to mention that Telma is clearly meant to be a Gerudo.

And the whole desert reeks death

Looking at all of the little moldorm things, the leevers, the peahats, and the Bulbins, the desert actually appears to be more alive than ever.

with an execution ground in the middle of it.

However, the Arbiter's Grounds could easily predate the Gerudo Fortress and thus not be related.

Hopefully this covers SOAP's post too.

[Raien]

Just a thought here. Is it possible that the Gerudo tribe were temporarily driven out of the desert by the monsters that had gathered there since Ganondorf's defeat? Twinrova could have brought these monsters upon the desert, being evil as they are.

[Average Gamer]

Those creatures appear to be in a separate part of the desert. The Gerudo in OoT also thought that crossing the desert was a trial and told Link that he'd basically be committing suicide if he tried to reach the Spirit Temple. I doubt that the Gerudo would really live in the part of the desert we saw in TP. I also feel that the Moldorm, Peahats, and Leevers were native to the region. While the Bulbins moved in, I doubt that they'd have forced all of the Gerudo out.

Edited by Average Gamer, 05 September 2009 - 10:11 PM.

[Egann]

Take ONE look at Telma in TP and tell me that she isn't supposed to have at least a LITTLE Gerudo blood in her if she isn't pure-bred. The yellow eyes, the white lips... Sure she is MASSIVELY overweight as far as Gerudo are supposed to be, but that's a dietary thing.

Personally, I think that the Gerudo were a splinter bloodline from the Hylian norm fom a time before the Zelda timeline began, then after OoT, the Gerudo left the dessert and slowly re-integrated with the Hylians. I don't know enough about the Zelda timeline to pinpoint the time-period specifically. If my theory is accurate, we could even use the measure of how close to integration the two races are to order the timeline....

But but but that implies evilution and aren't you're a Creationist.

I am a DEVOLUTIONIST. My favorite theory of the Gerudo is that they started as a bloodline of Hylian families where the women shared a mutation which prevented ALMOST all successful male pregnancies. In an age when male children were a necesity, this left them being social outcasts and them winding up in the desert. So they a) learned to steal to live, and b) desired to prove that men were not needed for a successful society. As that they still needed Hylian men to get pregnant, selective breeding acted on the survivors and both the need to be adapted to the desert climate along with being physically attractive resulted in what we call a Gerudo.

By the time of OoT, there was quite a bit of racism between the Gerudo and the Hylians. The Hylians regarded the Gerudo as seductive thieves, and the Gerudo regarded the Hylians with a significant degree of contempt, so they were deeply ashamed that they needed Hylian men to survive as a people.

Later, when the Gerudo re-integrated with mainstream Hylians, women took a more equal role with men as a direct result of there being an all-women-except-by-marriage bloodline in Hyrule. Hence Ashei in TP.

I think that's a rather complete model of the Gerudo. Scientific, Motivational, and Social. Evolution is pretty powerful. Even if you restrict it's changes to ONLY the down direction, you can STILL have substancial changes. The problem is that I think that the change curve is an exponential decay, and not linear because there isn't new information for selective breeding to act upon.

I won't say that such a beast doesn't exist, but the fact that that we don't know any information-producing mutations should point out that they are by FAR the exception (IF they exist) and that one shouldn't rely on them for one's origins model. Devolution is more powerful a synthesis of Darwinian mechanics than most Evolutionists admit, and seeing that it doesn't assume information-producing mutations except as an exception, I find it that much more credible, scientifically speaking.

Make thread in Contro if you want to discuss this further.

Edited by Egann, 05 September 2009 - 11:05 PM.

[Average Gamer]

>Deep scientific analysis
>The Legend of Zelda

I think you're trying too hard dude.

[Tekky]

Who's to say that the part of the Desert we visit in TP isn't somewhere north/south of the Haunted Wasteland, where Link gets eaten if he tries to reach?
Hell, maybe Nintendo are even messing with our heads and are trying to imply that the Arbiter's Grounds are that structure people claimed they could see in OoT's Haunted Wasteland and were convinced housed the Triforce

[Nerushi]

Who's to say that the part of the Desert we visit in TP isn't somewhere north/south of the Haunted Wasteland, where Link gets eaten if he tries to reach?
Hell, maybe Nintendo are even messing with our heads and are trying to imply that the Arbiter's Grounds are that structure people claimed they could see in OoT's Haunted Wasteland and were convinced housed the Triforce

Nah. We don't visit the Haunted Wasteland in TP. It's the Gerudo Desert. Clearly, no such desert exist in any game other than TP, ironically enough.