81 replies to this topic

[Impossible]

And I was criticizing, in turn, the idea of spinoffs never being canon. So hooray for us all failing to take things in context???

...Can you READ, please? MPS pointed out the exact problem with this, and you just ignored him and repeated yourself. So yes, it was only you taking things out of context, given that all MPS did was point out your straw man. He understood what you were saying perfectly. The problem is this: NOBODY SAID THAT SPINOFFS ARE NEVER CANON. What we're saying is that not all spinoffs are canon, and in any other video game fanbase, people understand this, as most video game spinoffs are not canon to the storyline of the original series.

You can see FPTRR however you want, but it does not occur in the Legend of Zelda timeline (for the Legend of Zelda series) and it can't prove anything that is not shown by other games.

[Masamune]

And yet I never once said that all spinoffs are all canon. Sure, I dismissed several examples and dished out some of my own examples, but that was kind of the point. I was making a case that there's just as much solid ground to say that a spinoff could be canon as there was not being canon. I mean, sure, I could have always just said that's not always the case, but I thought it would be hilarious if I provided examples and pointed out the ones that were fallacious. Granted, reading back on it, my problem was that I was arguing under a very specific idea of spin off, which I didn't bother to explain.

In any case, I'm curious what Video Game fanbases you're referring to. I know that some series enjoy frequent reboots, like Prince of Persia and Tomb Raider, which is more like what the Zelda series does without telling us. I'm trying to think of other ones, but I can't really think of series with spinoffs not sharing the same title (such as the Final Fantasy VII compilation). The best I can come up with is the Metal Gear Acid series, which are the type of games. Not being a fan of the series, as much as I can figure it's one of those scenarios of 'can't possibly happen' due to conflicting continuity, but I'm not sure. Other than that, the only character-based spinoffs I can think of that aren't related to Mario are The Adventures of Tron Bonne and Shadow the Hedgehog, which I'm sure are easily dismissed.

You can see FPTRR however you want, but it does not occur in the Legend of Zelda timeline (for the Legend of Zelda series) and it can't prove anything that is not shown by other games.

As far as I see it (and I've been admittedly vague about that), the game has a place in the timeline. By simply existing in the same universe, it has to happen at some point. I've previously pointed out some of the ideas in it and their possible interpretations, but they are not something I would use to justify the order of one Zelda game to another. I would say, for instance, that Rupeeland must fall after TWW for X number of reasons. But I wouldn't say that, for instance, Legend of Zelda takes place after The Wind Waker, because of X in Rupeeland. Does it have timeline value? No. Does it take place in the same universe? Yes. That's the extent of what I'm trying to argue.

I realize I've mentioned the Great Deku Tree and the state of the surrounding land earlier. But I'm the kind of person who takes interest in things like the Palace of Four Swords. I don't see these sort of things as absolutes and damning proof of whatever it is I'm arguing. I like to see themes running in the series, even if they're usually ones that weren't actually intentional. It adds a level of cohesion to me that Nintendo doesn't have interest in implementing. I like to wear my Rosy Rupeeglasses when I view the series, so it seems like there might actually be an actual storyline throughout the games, even if I've concluded that it's just a mish mash of barely related games and forming timelines is just an amusing exercise in puzzle solving.

[Impossible]

I realize I've mentioned the Great Deku Tree and the state of the surrounding land earlier.

The problem with this is that the Deku Tree is a cameo with no definitive connection to anything, exactly like a billion other cameos that people blow out of proportion. The other problem with this is that FPTRR's island-like structure is basically to break down the map into a level select screen, and has no story significance. Existing in a world with islands in it does not magically connect it to the Zelda series, as many worlds can have islands in them. FPTRR's world is never called Hyrule, interestingly enough.

[Raien]

I just look at Metroid Prime: Hunters as the prime example of how to treat a spin-off. Technically it's canon; the game has been listed in the official Metroid timeline. But it has absolutely no impact or relationship with the rest of the series, so any debates about its canon status are pointless anyway.

If Tingle RPG was somehow revealed to be canon, I would give it no more thought than I would Metroid Prime: Hunters.

[Masamune]

I realize I've mentioned the Great Deku Tree and the state of the surrounding land earlier.

The problem with this is that the Deku Tree is a cameo with no definitive connection to anything, exactly like a billion other cameos that people blow out of proportion. The other problem with this is that FPTRR's island-like structure is basically to break down the map into a level select screen, and has no story significance. Existing in a world with islands in it does not magically connect it to the Zelda series, as many worlds can have islands in them. FPTRR's world is never called Hyrule, interestingly enough.

Well, again, it's nothing definitive for the Zelda timeline as a whole. But if you say "Rupeeland happens in the Zelda universe", then it has to happen at some point. Naturally, when it happens doesn't ultimately matter. But if you're a completest like me, then it has to go somewhere. Consequently, I use what evidence (which is admittedly very little) in the game to come up with the most logical answer for that. Aside from the Great Deku Tree, it also fits thematically to place it after TWW, since this is a game that traditionally goes at the end of a timeline, whether it's in the Adult Split Timeline or in some cases, even a Single Timeline. It's implied that Uncle Rupee has been creating Tingles for a long time, which handily explains the previous incarnations of Tingle in all Zelda games (now if only we could explain all those Malons and Impas...)

As for the Great Deku Tree being a cameo, it's very possible that's just it. The only unusual thing is that it's in a game with very few cameos (as opposed to Flagship's Zelda games) and features a character already known to have lived from Ocarina of Time up until The Wind Waker. It does not stretch plausibility to suggest it's the same Great Deku Tree who was born in the Adult Timeline of Ocarina of Time.

[Person]

I just look at Metroid Prime: Hunters as the prime example of how to treat a spin-off. Technically it's canon; the game has been listed in the official Metroid timeline. But it has absolutely no impact or relationship with the rest of the series, so any debates about its canon status are pointless anyway.

If Tingle RPG was somehow revealed to be canon, I would give it no more thought than I would Metroid Prime: Hunters.

MPH might have some relation to the 100% ending to Metroid Prime 3. But that's neither here nor there. In Metroid, everything's canon, even the manga, and the game scenarios are written out to have some place in the overall timeline. This is a very different situation from Zelda.

[joeymartin64]

Other than that, the only character-based spinoffs I can think of that aren't related to Mario are The Adventures of Tron Bonne and Shadow the Hedgehog, which I'm sure are easily dismissed.

As much as I agree with you in this thread, neither of these examples work. Tron Bonne takes place before Legends 1 (I think; I've only dabbled in that series), and Shadow is an extremely important chapter in the overall Sonic narrative that just happens to focus on Shadow instead of Sonic.

Edited by joeymartin64, 12 September 2009 - 02:34 PM.

[Masamune]

Yeah. That's why I said they are easily dismissed. Excluding the Wario/DK example, I really couldn't think of a spinoff series like Rupeeland.

[joeymartin64]

Oh, I thought you meant they were "easily dismissed" from the canon. Sorry.

[Raien]

MPH might have some relation to the 100% ending to Metroid Prime 3. But that's neither here nor there. In Metroid, everything's canon, even the manga, and the game scenarios are written out to have some place in the overall timeline. This is a very different situation from Zelda.

The e-manga is certainly canon, but if I recall, the following manga is an alternate scenario to the original Metroid. It certainly can't exist with Zero Mission.

[Masamune]

At the very least, the e-Manga is supported by the ending scenes in the Japanese version of Metroid Fusion, where we're treated to flashbacks of Samus growing up, which certainly line up with what the e-Manga presented.

[Pinecove]

The e-manga?

You mean this?: http://metroid-datab...p?g=mzm&p=manga

Which happens before ZM?

[Masamune]

If you read it far enough, then you have Samus actually arriving on Zebes and doing things that logically shouldn't happen before Metroid, especially since Samus herself describes it as her "Zero Mission" (for as little sense as that makes). Granted, I can't claim any specifics, since I only skimmed through it awhile back.

[Caulaincourt]

Because of the relative immutability of geography I place most games on the AT. The insular nature of FSA Hyrule makes me believe it follows WW. ALTTP's map is nearly identical to FSA's so I place that after. I'm unsure whether to place LoZ/AoL and OoX after ALTTP or after PH.

[Raien]

The two-part e-manga covers Samus's adoption by the Chozo and her growth into the bounty hunter.

The following manga takes place shortly after Samus begins working for the Galactic Federation. The Space Pirates have just started attacking the Federation, and their intentions are still a mystery. They hear about a Space Pirate attack on Zebes and Samus goes to investigate. There it's revealed that the Space Pirates are wholly dependant on a leader, and they have chosen Mother Brain. A random Chozo is also a traitor. I forget how the story ends.

As you can probably tell, this manga was crap. One thing that annoyed me was that the Chozo were used as a commentary on Japan's aging population, and their demise contradicted the logical development of their species (the "ascension" plot that appeared in the first edition of Metroid Prime was much better. It's a shame it's no longer canon).

[MikePetersSucks]

Because of the relative immutability of geography I place most games on the AT. The insular nature of FSA Hyrule makes me believe it follows WW. ALTTP's map is nearly identical to FSA's so I place that after. I'm unsure whether to place LoZ/AoL and OoX after ALTTP or after PH.

Hyrule's Geography is hardly inconsistent on either timeline, much less immutible. I wouldn't base your theory on geography if you can avoid it.

[Person]

As you can probably tell, this manga was crap. One thing that annoyed me was that the Chozo were used as a commentary on Japan's aging population, and their demise contradicted the logical development of their species (the "ascension" plot that appeared in the first edition of Metroid Prime was much better. It's a shame it's no longer canon).

Weren't the changes made in the second release of MP done without Retro's approval? Which version is in the Trilogy compilation?

[Raien]

Weren't the changes made in the second release of MP done without Retro's approval? Which version is in the Trilogy compilation?

I don't believe there's any official explanation for the log changes or who made them. I presume Retro because they're the developers after all. They know the code and they'll be responsible for fixing things.

The log changes first appeared in the PAL version of Prime, which was released shortly after the original NTSC version. The log changes only came to North America in the Player's Choice edition much later. Trilogy has the PAL/Player's Choice edition.

Edited by Raien, 12 September 2009 - 06:51 PM.

[Person]

Weren't the changes made in the second release of MP done without Retro's approval? Which version is in the Trilogy compilation?

I don't believe there's any official explanation for the log changes or who made them. I presume Retro because they're the developers after all. They know the code and they'll be responsible for fixing things.

The log changes first appeared in the PAL version of Prime, which was released shortly after the original NTSC version. The log changes only came to North America in the Player's Choice edition much later. Trilogy has the PAL/Player's Choice edition.

The changes made make the original Prime inconsistent with MP3, however. Doesn't the PAL version say that Metroid Prime came in the meteor and wasn't just mutated by it, as the Leviathan guardians in MP3 were?

[Raien]

The changes made make the original Prime inconsistent with MP3, however. Doesn't the PAL version say that Metroid Prime came in the meteor and wasn't just mutated by it, as the Leviathan guardians in MP3 were?

No, it was the original NTSC version that said Prime came in the meteor. PAL version says Prime was mutated in the Impact Crater.

My hypothesis is that the change was made to prevent a contradiction with Metroid Fusion, which was released alongside Metroid Prime in 2002. Fusion was the first time it was revealed the Chozo created the Metroids, making the Metroids' existence on the undiscovered planet Phaaze impossible.

Edited by Raien, 12 September 2009 - 07:29 PM.

[Masamune]

I like the PAL version better anyways. It isn't completely impossible that the Chozo would have transported their lost research with them on the planet. At least that way it actually is a mutated Metroid and not just a creature being arbitrarily compared to one.

I did like the references to the end of the Chozo by the Elysians in Corruption.

[Pinecove]

Hmm. But the first edition of Metriod prime also says that the Pirates discovered MP in the impact crater which we know is impossible.