55 replies to this topic

[Masamune]

First off, let me make this clear. I realize that the split timeline is par the course nowadays. I don't like the idea of split timeline, but I recognize that it's more or less inevitable and confirmed. I am not denying this. However, for my purposes, I have no need of a split timeline. What I'm trying to do is formulate a single, continuing timeline that does not employ the semi-official split-timeline theory and the even more official triangular timeline theory.

The subject of this is Ganondof, since what I'm trying to do is build a coherent history for him. This assumes several things:
A) There is only one Ganondorf.
B) Ganondorf and Ganon are the same entity, but in different form.
C) Ganondorf refers to the man; Ganon refers to the monster or man - but generally refers to the monster.

Now to establish some quantifiers for each game and their place. Games which do not concern Ganon will be excluded.

The Legend of Zelda
-Ganon appears only in monster form
-Triforce of Wisdom is in Zelda's possession; Triforce of Power is in Ganon's possession
-Master Sword does not appear
*Apparent lack of civilization
-Canonically tied to The Adventure of Link
*A Link to the Past is generally believed to be a prequel.

The Adventure of Link
-Ganon is deceased, but can be revived by Link's blood.
-Triforce of Wisdom, Power is in Link's possession; Triforce of Courage has been locked up in the Great Palace for centuries.
-Master Sword does not appear
*Civilization is separate from conventional Hyrule. The Death Mountain Area is believed to be the setting of Legend of Zelda.
-Canonically tied to The Legend of Zelda

-Timeline So Far-

(TLoZ - TAoL)

A Link to the Past
-Ganon is trapped in the Sacred Realm/Dark World. Appears only as a monster.
-Triforce is complete and in the Sacred Realm; later owned by Link.
-Master Sword is resting in the Lost Woods
*Civilization is normal
*Commonly believed to be a prequel to The Legend of Zelda
*Four Swords Adventures shares geographical similarities to A Link to the Past and is often believed to be a prequel.
*Link's Awakening is generally tied to A Link to the Past, due to art style and the unspoken "Two Games Per Link" rule.

-Timeline So Far-

(ALttP - LA) > (TLoZ - TAoL)

Ocarina of Time
-Ganondorf's origins are explored. Appears as a man, becomes monster.
-Triforce is complete and in the Sacred Realm. Later distributed to Ganondorf (Power), Zelda (Wisdom), and Link (Courage)
-Master Sword resting in the Temple of Time.
*Civilization is normal
-The game is the intended origin of Ganondorf
-Majora's Mask is the canonical sequel to Ocarina of Time

-Timeline So Far-

(OoT - MM) > (ALttP - LA) > (TLoZ - TAoL)

Oracle of Ages/Oracle of Seasons
-Ganon is dead and revived. Appears only as a monster
-Triforce is kept (seemingly unguarded) in a castle, possibly Hyrule Castle
-Master Sword is conjured from thin air, rendering its presence irrelevant
-Order of the Oracle games are interchangeable
*Hyrule is not visited, but Zelda's presence suggests civilization is normal

Timeline placement is never suggested in or outside the game. Therefor some rationalization is needed.
**Triforce is complete - suggests either post ALttP or post TLoZ
**Civilization is normal in Hyrule - Thought this might suggest ALttP, this Hyrule could also be the one seen in The Adventure of Link
**Ganon starts out dead - This could go either way. It is worth noting Ganon's followers are attempting to revive him in The Adventure of Link.

Conclusion: Link is seen to possess the Triforce in the end of Adventure of Link, whereas its fate is unknown Post-ALttP. It would also stand to reason that it would be easier to revive a Ganon slain in the Light World than a Ganon slain in the Dark World. Therefor, OoA/OoS would seem to take place post-TAoL

-Timeline So Far-

(OoT - MM) > (ALttP - LA) > (TLoZ - TAoL) > (OoA - OoS)

Four Swords Adventures
-Ganondorf as mentioned and identified by the fellow Gerudo. Appears as a monster; sealed in the Four Sword
-Triforce does not appear
-Master Sword does not appear
*Civilization is normal
*The game resembles A Link to the Past in geography and is believed to be the prequel
-Four Swords is the canonical prequel to Four Swords Adventure. Though not relevant, The Minish Cap explores Vaati's origins

-Timeline So Far-

(OoT - MM) > (FS - FSA) > (ALttP - LA) > (TLoZ - TAoL) > (OoA - OoS)

The Wind Waker
-Ganondorf appears as a man, trapped in Hyrule
-Triforce is split between Ganon (Power), Zelda and Daphnes (Wisdom), and the ocean floor (Courage)
-Master Sword is hidden in Hyrule Castle, time locking it
-Civilization is lost
-The Hero of Time from Ocarina of Time is heavily referenced
-Canonically tied to Phantom Hourglass

Though the game is definitively post-OoT, problems arise from this placement and form the core of the Split-Timeline Theory. Some notable problems arise if placing it before Four Swords
**How does Hyrule come back? Do they create a new Hyrule?
**How did Ganondorf escape the Sacred Realm? Does this even matter?

It would be easier to place is post Oracles, though similar problems arise.
**Why is the Hero of Time referred to and not other Links? Is the Hero of Time necessarily the one from OoT anyways?
**How did Ganondorf get a piece of the Triforce?

These questions are easily answered in a Split-Timeline Theory (and even more so in the Triforce of Time Theory), but are a problem for a single timeline. Consequently, a decision has to be made. I choose the latter and put it at the end of the timeline. It can be reasoned that due to the frequency of Links appearing, the Hero of Time could have come to be ascribed to any Hero in green who appears any time evil arises. Likewise, Ganondorf would have no doubt tried to seize the Triforce and gain power, necessitating the flood. These explanations are more plausible than the New Hyrule problem.

-Timeline So Far-

(OoT - MM) > (FS - FSA) > (ALttP - LA) > (TLoZ - TAoL) > (OoA - OoS) > (TWW - PH)

Twilight Princess
-Ganondorf is trapped in the Twilight Realm, but escapes. Appears as human, becomes beasts, becomes human again
-The Triforce is given to its usual owners. What is unusual is that seems to have been done divinely, as opposed to Ganondorf simply trying to claim the Triforce.
-The Master Sword is hidden in the old Temple of Time in the Lost Woods
*Civilization is normal.

There are no overt references to Twilight Princess's position in the timeline, though it seems to be strongly tied to the Ocarina of Time. There are easy explanations for the problems.
**The dark future of Ocarina of Time never happened. Therefor, Ganondorf never was able to claim the Triforce. He would have later attempted to do so again years later (possibly causing the "real" Imprisoning/Seal War), leading to his imprisonment by the Sages. (This would explain why Ganondorf, seemingly immortal, would look much older compared to his counterpart in Ocarina of Time).
**It is destiny for Ganondorf to end up with the Triforce of Power. Since the events of Ocarina of Time did not play out, he was forced to play the role of villain again as part of some sort of Divine Prank.
**Something must have happened to the old Hyrule Castle Town, due to the Temple of Time now residing in the Lost Woods. This may possibly be a result of a war, such as the Imprisoning/Seal War.

-Timeline So Far-

(OoT - MM) > (TP) > (FS - FSA) > (ALttP - LA) > (TLoZ - TAoL) > (OoA - OoS) > (TWW - PH)

Other Games
-The Minish Cap can take place almost anywhere pre-Four Swords. Given the already long lineage of kings presented in TMC, it might make the most sense directly between Twilight Princess and Four Swords. However given the name of some of the locations being different than series norms, it might also take place pre-OoT.
-The Tingle games could take place anywhere, since Tingle is presumably a recurring incarnation like Link and Zelda. However, given the presence of the Great Deku Tree in Rupeeland and his resemblance to the new Deku Tree, it would make sense to place Rupeeland as post-TWW. This would certainly make sense, given the level of technology present in the Tingle games, as well as the island structure of the world map.

Problems

-The Gerudo would have vanished during Twilight Princess, yet are back by the time of FSA. However, it is possible that they are desert nomads and simply were not present during the events of Twilight Princess. They may also have become secretive. It is possible that they might simply have not been relevant and did not appear for that reason.
-The Zelda origin story in The Adventure of Link is problematic. If she truly is the first Zelda, then the sleeping Zelda would have been asleep since before Ocarina of Time! However, given the coincidence of recurring incarnations of Link, Impa, Tingle, Malon, and others... the Zelda naming legend might not really be that relevant.
-In this timeline Ganon's return to life in Four Sword Adventures, The Legend of Zelda, and The Wind Waker is vague. This is more excusable in The Legend of Zelda, where there is very little backstory provided, but is more problematic with Four Sword Adventures and its seeming alternate origin story for Ganondorf.
-The Wind Waker is problematic for all the reasons listed above, but there is also the issue of Ganondorf returning to the form of man after having become permanently a monster following his claim of the Trident in Four Swords Adventures. Of note, this is the only time that the pig-demon Ganon does not appear (excluding non-Ganon games naturally). Under this theory, it might suggest that his power may have diminished, possibly in relation to his loss of the Trident.
-Twinrova would have had to have been in hiding for a long time, given her lack of activity until very nearly the end of the timeline. Given her knowledge of resurrecting Ganon, she might be the behind-the-scenes explanation for Ganon's frequent revivals in the past.

Points of Note

-The descendants of the Wise Men/Sages in A Link to the Past are all Hylian. This make no sense when considering the diverse races of Ocarina of Time. However if the future never happened, it's possible that the original Sages never died off and that the original sages were all (male) Hylians and consequently the ones seen in Twilight Princess.
-The Four Sword is found fragmented in the Pyramid of Power in A Link to the Past. If Ganon had escaped from the Four Sword, it would make sense he would keep it heavily guarded in a place nearby that he could watch.
-The Oracle games were originally supposed to include a remake of The Legend of Zelda. Interestingly, the Oracle games could have almost been tied in with the Legend of Zelda as the same Link, if not for the problem of Impa's age and Zelda having never met Link before.
-Of anyone, the Link in ALttP would have experienced first hand how powerful the Triforce was, since no other time did Ganon ever have the whole Triforce. The adventures alluded to in Link's Awakening might very well have had to do with the hiding of the Triforce of Courage in the Great Palace, which is a land quite far away.

[MikePetersSucks]

It would be easier to place is post Oracles, though similar problems arise.
**Why is the Hero of Time referred to and not other Links? Is the Hero of Time necessarily the one from OoT anyways?
**How did Ganondorf get a piece of the Triforce?

These questions are easily answered in a Split-Timeline Theory (and even more so in the Triforce of Time Theory), but are a problem for a single timeline. Consequently, a decision has to be made. I choose the latter and put it at the end of the timeline. It can be reasoned that due to the frequency of Links appearing, the Hero of Time could have come to be ascribed to any Hero in green who appears any time evil arises. Likewise, Ganondorf would have no doubt tried to seize the Triforce and gain power, necessitating the flood. These explanations are more plausible than the New Hyrule problem.

-Timeline So Far-

(OoT - MM) > (FS - FSA) > (ALttP - LA) > (TLoZ - TAoL) > (OoA - OoS) > (TWW - PH)

The problem with this is that Ganondorf himself references OOT Link, and Ganondorf broke out of the Sacred Realm instead of...you know, coming back from the dead. You'd have to just make up a game that goes here for things to work ALONG WITH the regular backstory to make this work, and that's just silly. There's also the Sages murals to consider, implying that they were involved in the whole mess.

And if we're considering creator quotes, TWW and TP are parallels to each other. But that's only a stickler detail.

Of note, this is the only time that the pig-demon Ganon does not appear (excluding non-Ganon games naturally). Under this theory, it might suggest that his power may have diminished, possibly in relation to his loss of the Trident.

He did it just fine in OOT without a trident, due to his Triforce piece. More simply, maybe he was just so arrogant and confident of his victory that he just didn't use it. He was way more sympathetic in this game, too, and would've let the children live if they didn't wreck everything.

-Twinrova would have had to have been in hiding for a long time, given her lack of activity until very nearly the end of the timeline. Given her knowledge of resurrecting Ganon, she might be the behind-the-scenes explanation for Ganon's frequent revivals in the past.

The problem with this is that it requires them to wreck timelines and entire countries off-screen without Link interfering, or for them to kill the Link that most recently defeated Ganon off-screen. More likely, Ganondorf just reincarnates, solving most of these problem. Ganondorf's reincarnating like the other characters do bring no problem to a coherent single timeline.

-The Oracle games were originally supposed to include a remake of The Legend of Zelda. Interestingly, the Oracle games could have almost been tied in with the Legend of Zelda as the same Link, if not for the problem of Impa's age and Zelda having never met Link before.

Don't forget Link clearly being younger than 16

-Of anyone, the Link in ALttP would have experienced first hand how powerful the Triforce was, since no other time did Ganon ever have the whole Triforce. The adventures alluded to in Link's Awakening might very well have had to do with the hiding of the Triforce of Courage in the Great Palace, which is a land quite far away.

Therefore, LTTP Zelda is the Sleeping Zelda. Now shut up, Sleeping Zelda anal-retentives.

Aside from the placement of TWW-PH, obviously, this is a very, very good timeline. Kudos, you almost made a Single Timeline work, but you fell just a little short.

[Masamune]

It would be easier to place is post Oracles, though similar problems arise.
**Why is the Hero of Time referred to and not other Links? Is the Hero of Time necessarily the one from OoT anyways?
**How did Ganondorf get a piece of the Triforce?

These questions are easily answered in a Split-Timeline Theory (and even more so in the Triforce of Time Theory), but are a problem for a single timeline. Consequently, a decision has to be made. I choose the latter and put it at the end of the timeline. It can be reasoned that due to the frequency of Links appearing, the Hero of Time could have come to be ascribed to any Hero in green who appears any time evil arises. Likewise, Ganondorf would have no doubt tried to seize the Triforce and gain power, necessitating the flood. These explanations are more plausible than the New Hyrule problem.

-Timeline So Far-

(OoT - MM) > (FS - FSA) > (ALttP - LA) > (TLoZ - TAoL) > (OoA - OoS) > (TWW - PH)

The problem with this is that Ganondorf himself references OOT Link, and Ganondorf broke out of the Sacred Realm instead of...you know, coming back from the dead. You'd have to just make up a game that goes here for things to work ALONG WITH the regular backstory to make this work, and that's just silly. There's also the Sages murals to consider, implying that they were involved in the whole mess.

I forgot about the Sages murals. That's also presents a problem with the hypothesis about the sages.

Of note, this is the only time that the pig-demon Ganon does not appear (excluding non-Ganon games naturally). Under this theory, it might suggest that his power may have diminished, possibly in relation to his loss of the Trident.

He did it just fine in OOT without a trident, due to his Triforce piece. More simply, maybe he was just so arrogant and confident of his victory that he just didn't use it. He was way more sympathetic in this game, too, and would've let the children live if they didn't wreck everything.

I thought about this after posting it. The trident is irrelevant (even if it is kind of cool), so your explanation is as good as any. Another possibility is that his botched resurrection in Oracles may have had a hand in him losing his alternate form.

-Twinrova would have had to have been in hiding for a long time, given her lack of activity until very nearly the end of the timeline. Given her knowledge of resurrecting Ganon, she might be the behind-the-scenes explanation for Ganon's frequent revivals in the past.

The problem with this is that it requires them to wreck timelines and entire countries off-screen without Link interfering, or for them to kill the Link that most recently defeated Ganon off-screen. More likely, Ganondorf just reincarnates, solving most of these problem. Ganondorf's reincarnating like the other characters do bring no problem to a coherent single timeline.

Reincarnation works, I suppose. It takes away something from the Ganondorf mythos if he's just a recurring person and not a long term adversary, like Castlevania's Dracula. It's probably going out on a limb to suggest they'd have other ways to revive Ganon, but it's not entirely impossible.

Aside from the placement of TWW-PH, obviously, this is a very, very good timeline. Kudos, you almost made a Single Timeline work, but you fell just a little short.

I think The Wind Waker is still tied to being to the end, even with the problems presented there. Placing it early in the timeline just doesn't seem to work, unless you're using a split timeline. The plot holes created by placing it at the end of the timeline seem less problematic than the ones you get from placing it after Ocarina of Time. Either way, you have to invent events that recreate the old Hyrule or invent events leading to Ganondorf being trapped in the Sacred Realm again.

I think it will be interesting to see what ideas Spirit Tracks bring to the table if it really does take place after Phantom Hourglass.

[joeymartin64]

Oy, bugger. I never got around to actually posting my timeline in that other thread, so I guess I'll do it here. I've included notes about relevant aspects and fanwankery as required.

TMC (Completely arbitrary; like Masa said, this damn thing can feasibly go pretty much anywhere pre-FS)
OoT-MM (Triforce is split)
TWW-PH (Triforce goes to Zelda, who doesn't realize it)
(Hyrule is revived/Deku Tree succeeds)
TP (Ganon reduced to spirit form, Triforce is reunited)
OoX (Master Sword not canon, Ganon is destroyed, Triforce is returned to Sacred Realm afterward)
FS-FSA (New Ganondorf)
(Imprisoning War)
ALttP-LA
(Zelda II backstory)
LoZ-AoL

For the OoT references is TWW, I assume (read: fanwank) that the bearers of the Triforce retain their memories upon returning to the past (this also accounts for OoT Zelda being where she shouldn't at that time.) Link would recount his tale, using his ToC as proof if his identity, and the whole shitstorm goes down as legend.

Masa, how do you account for Ganondorf's different origin story in FSA?

Edited by joeymartin64, 05 September 2009 - 07:13 PM.

[GuardianNinja]

Praise! you sir are a hero, fabulous job Masa.

although...

MC>FSA\FS>LttP>LA>OoA\OoS>OoT>MM>TP>Wii>WW>PH>ST>LoZ>AoL

this is mine and your better at explaining, but why have OoA\S after OoT\MM? and FSA?

[Masamune]

Masa, how do you account for Ganondorf's different origin story in FSA?

I'm not sure there is a need. Either MPS's reincarnation theory goes here (in which case a new Ganondorf is nothing new) or this is just an extension of the existing Ganondorf. Given that he would have retained his Gerudo form, his fellow Gerudo would have recognized him as their king, regardless of when he was born (there's not exactly a lot of male Gerudo). With the assumption that there is more than one settlement for the entire Gerudo race (far from unreasonable), then a male Gerudo showing up and claiming to be king isn't that far fetched.

Your theory has merit though, though I'd probably move the Oracles games to the end or pre-LoZ at least. The Oracles Ganon would seem to be a better fit with the "classic" blue Ganon, as opposed to the 3D version of Ganondorf who is better characterized.

MC>FSA\FS>LttP>LA>OoA\OoS>OoT>MM>TP>Wii>WW>PH>ST>LoZ>AoL

this is mine and your better at explaining, but why have OoA\S after OoT\MM? and FSA?

Ocarina of Time always seemed to be the first instance of the Sacred Realm being entered, and thus the first time the Triforce was ever touched. It seems reasonable to preserve that.

So does your theory presume there are two Ganondorfs then?

[joeymartin64]

Your theory has merit though, though I'd probably move the Oracles games to the end or pre-LoZ at least. The Oracles Ganon would seem to be a better fit with the "classic" blue Ganon, as opposed to the 3D version of Ganondorf who is better characterized.

The reason I put it there is based on the status of Ganon and the Triforce. AoL does satsify both of those requirements (Ganon dead, Triforce in the hands of the good guys), but I'm just so used to having AoL as the final chapter, heh. It's silly, I know, but old habits die hard. Now that I think about it, though, you're probably right about the form Ganon assumes in Oracle, not to mention that keeping the Triforce at Hyrule Castle probably isn't a smart move unless people are sure that all threats have gone tits up. And people probably felt that way after the same kid no only killed Ganon, but broke a centuries-long spell/curse. Hm.

[Masamune]

I have similar feelings about TAoL, but in that case, Oracles fits just as well if you put if after ALttP (good guys have the Triforce, Ganon is dead). It also works well in a way because Oracles/LoZ Ganon are both instances where Ganon is just an unspeaking beast, as opposed to Four Swords Adventures and A Link to the Past, where he speaks.

[joeymartin64]

I don't know if we can assume that about LoZ Ganon, considering the technology. He at least had some thought process in the backstory, and may have had lines and/or stronger characterization were the game not framed the way it is. Oracle Ganon, on the other hand is straight up GANON SMASH (not to be confused with GANNON-BANNED).

Are there really any other requirements for Oracle? I can't think of any.

Oh, wait, it can't happen after ALttP, since the Dark Realm/World was destroyed during ALttP's ending. Back up to pre-FS it goes.

Edited by joeymartin64, 05 September 2009 - 07:18 PM.

[Masamune]

It wasn't destroyed, only returned to the Golden Realm. And why does that matter?

[joeymartin64]

Because Onox and maybe Veran (I forget) were "summoned from the Dark Realm by Twinrova." And even if the Dark World were returned to the Golden Land (which I like), the good guys have the Triforce, meaning there wouldn't be a Dark Realm for the baddies to be summoned from at the time.

[Masamune]

I'm fairly certain that the Dark Realm and Dark World are two different places (and even different from the Twilight Realm). Besides that, the Dark World only existed while Ganon was in the Dark World, which started somewhere between the events of the Imprisoning War to the present.

[joeymartin64]

They're not. "Dark Realm" is a different translation of the same Japanese used for "Dark World." Evil Realm, Dark World, and Dark Realm are all the same thing.

[GuardianNinja]

So does your theory presume there are two Ganondorfs then?

Its plausible, theres multiple links........and zeldas!

[MikePetersSucks]

I thought about this after posting it. The trident is irrelevant (even if it is kind of cool), so your explanation is as good as any. Another possibility is that his botched resurrection in Oracles may have had a hand in him losing his alternate form.

'

Hm...the Oracles ritual brought forth a mindless pig Ganon...are you implying the two were separated, and when Ganondorf was resurrected, he lost that power because Link killed it separately? That'd make a great fanfiction idea.

Still, Ganondorf was being cocky the entire time, and he always seemed like he was pulling punches and not going all out until the very end, where he lost his Triforce piece and thus couldn't anyway, even if he could have moments before. Since Ganondorf is portrayed as being just as terrible as he ever was, his very presence poisoning the efforts of the Koroks and such, then it'd be pretty against the spirit of the story for his power to be diminished in any way.

Reincarnation works, I suppose. It takes away something from the Ganondorf mythos if he's just a recurring person and not a long term adversary, like Castlevania's Dracula. It's probably going out on a limb to suggest they'd have other ways to revive Ganon, but it's not entirely impossible.

I think it adds something; as long as Link and Zelda exist, so too must he regardless of what Twinrova does, and vice versa. Castlevania's Dracula is fated to revive every 100 years or whatever so long as there is evil, but that doesn't stop minions from reviving him early. Maybe Twinrova and the rest of Ganon's minions aren't in the mood to find a baby containing his soul, regroom it, then debrief him on his past lives.

I think The Wind Waker is still tied to being to the end, even with the problems presented there. Placing it early in the timeline just doesn't seem to work, unless you're using a split timeline. The plot holes created by placing it at the end of the timeline seem less problematic than the ones you get from placing it after Ocarina of Time. Either way, you have to invent events that recreate the old Hyrule or invent events leading to Ganondorf being trapped in the Sacred Realm again.

Right, in a single timeline, it would have to go at the end, but all these games inbetween seem irreconcilable to me. Still, this seems the best possible case, to me.

I'm not sure there is a need. Either MPS's reincarnation theory goes here (in which case a new Ganondorf is nothing new) or this is just an extension of the existing Ganondorf. Given that he would have retained his Gerudo form, his fellow Gerudo would have recognized him as their king, regardless of when he was born (there's not exactly a lot of male Gerudo). With the assumption that there is more than one settlement for the entire Gerudo race (far from unreasonable), then a male Gerudo showing up and claiming to be king isn't that far fetched.

Didn't the Gerudo comment in FSA how Ganondorf "didn't seem wrong/bad" etc when he was younger? They heavily imply that they watched him grow up.

They're not. "Dark Realm" is a different translation of the same Japanese used for "Dark World." Evil Realm, Dark World, and Dark Realm are all the same thing.

Wrong. Even if they were, you'd have to consider the context of the surrounding words, which effects how you should translate it as. The Dark World of LTTP is separate from the Dark Realm, Dark Realm of FSA, Evil Realm, etc.

The fact that none of them even apparently share the same properties should be evidence enough, name aside.

[Masamune]

I think The Wind Waker is still tied to being to the end, even with the problems presented there. Placing it early in the timeline just doesn't seem to work, unless you're using a split timeline. The plot holes created by placing it at the end of the timeline seem less problematic than the ones you get from placing it after Ocarina of Time. Either way, you have to invent events that recreate the old Hyrule or invent events leading to Ganondorf being trapped in the Sacred Realm again.

Right, in a single timeline, it would have to go at the end, but all these games inbetween seem irreconcilable to me. Still, this seems the best possible case, to me.

It's all a matter of either hand waving it away or calling it distorted legends. I think that it's possible that even folk like Daphnes, Valoo, and the others could have come to know each individual Link as being the Hero of Time, simply because a hero always appears at Hyrule's most dire moment (save for the events leading to the flood). It makes a certain amount of sense that they would come to expect the Hero of Time to show up if this is something that had happened several times before, as opposed to him having shown up just once.

It's what is inside the castle itself that is more problematic, what with the Sages showing up there and all...

An early TWW placement would fix those problems. This is why I'm sort of interested in seeing where Spirit Tracks will take place. If it is indeed meant to take place at some point at Phantom Hourglass (whether years or centuries), then apparently some sort of continent is there. Possibly a lead-in for the New Hyrule idea.

I'm not sure there is a need. Either MPS's reincarnation theory goes here (in which case a new Ganondorf is nothing new) or this is just an extension of the existing Ganondorf. Given that he would have retained his Gerudo form, his fellow Gerudo would have recognized him as their king, regardless of when he was born (there's not exactly a lot of male Gerudo). With the assumption that there is more than one settlement for the entire Gerudo race (far from unreasonable), then a male Gerudo showing up and claiming to be king isn't that far fetched.

Didn't the Gerudo comment in FSA how Ganondorf "didn't seem wrong/bad" etc when he was younger? They heavily imply that they watched him grow up.

I looked it up.

Once every 100 years, a special child is born unto my people.

That child is destined to be the mighty guardian of the Gerudo and the desert.

But this child, its heart grew twisted with every passing year.

The child became a man who hungered for power at any price.

I suppose that would be pretty damning evidence there. Though it doesn't imply that they actually watched him grow up, it does seem to suggest he was the last of these 'guardians' (male Gerudo) to have been born in the last 100 years...

[GuardianNinja]

Perhaps the idea of ganon is spread across many races, not just gerado, perhaps there was a ganon that was Hylian?

[Showsni]

Given the differing origin stories in FSA, OoT and ALttP I think multiple Ganons are pretty much inevitable, even in a single timeline; but with multiple Links anyway, it's not too much of a problem.

My timeline's nearly a nice single timeline, but TP messes it up. Observe:

LoZ

With only one game released, the timeline is pretty straightforward.

Ganon attacks small kingdom, steals ToP -> Zelda hides ToW -> events of LoZ

LoZ

AoL

A direct sequel, with a backstory occurring (at this point) earliest in the timeline.

A King rules with the whole triforce -> King hides ToC and writes a letter to future hero -> King dies, Prince inherits ToP and ToW -> A Wizard puts Zelda into an enchanted sleep -> Prince decrees all firstborn royal girls shall be named Zelda, hides Zelda's body -> years pass -> Ganon attacks small kingdom, steals ToP -> current Zelda hides ToW -> events of LoZ -> Link comes of age, finds sleeping Zelda's body, deciphers King's letter -> events of AoL

SZ -> LoZ -> AoL

ALttP

The box proclaims it's a prequel to LoZ. Problem: if so, it must also come before the time the ToC was hidden, and thus before the prince's proclamation. Why then is this princess called Zelda? Solution: Coincidence? Perhaps Zelda was already a family name? Maybe SZ is named after ALttP Zelda, as daughter or grand daughter?

Hyrule is created -> The gods leave behind the triforce in the SR -> the Master Sword is created in case an evil person should obtain the triforce (JAP) -> a gang of thieves enter the SR, their leader (Ganondorf) takes the triforce and slays the rest -> Ganondorf wishes to rule the world -> The SR is transformed into the Dark World -> the Sages are gathered by the King -> they create the Master Sword but search in vain for a wielder(NOA)/they search in vain for the Master Sword and a wielder (JAP) -> Ganondorf's forces attack the Light World -> the Knights of Hyrule battle the forces whilst the Sages seek a way to stop Ganondorf -> The Sages seal the Dark World, turning all portals between LW and DW one way -> years pass -> Many disasters befall Hyrule -> A Wizard appears and stops the disasters -> the Wizard kills the King and usurps the throne, captures the Maidens, descendants of the Sages, and sacrifices them, sending them to the DW -> events of ALttP -> A King rules with the whole triforce -> King hides ToC and writes a letter to future hero -> King dies, Prince inherits ToP and ToW -> A Wizard puts Zelda into an enchanted sleep -> Prince decrees all firstborn royal girls shall be named Zelda, hides Zelda's body -> years pass -> Ganon attacks small kingdom, steals ToP -> current Zelda hides ToW -> events of LoZ -> Link comes of age, finds sleeping Zelda's body, deciphers King's letter -> events of AoL

Creation -> IW -> ALttP -> SZ -> LoZ -> AoL

LA

Link has fulfilled the legend, and Hyrule has mostly peace; so after ALttP or AoL. After ALttP is probably best as LA features shadows of many ALttP enemies.

Hyrule is created -> The gods leave behind the triforce in the SR -> the Master Sword is created in case an evil person should obtain the triforce (JAP) -> a gang of thieves enter the SR, their leader (Ganondorf) takes the triforce and slays the rest -> Ganondorf wishes to rule the world -> The SR is transformed into the Dark World -> the Sages are gathered by the King -> they create the Master Sword but search in vain for a wielder(NOA)/they search in vain for the Master Sword and a wielder (JAP) -> Ganondorf's forces attack the Light World -> the Knights of Hyrule battle the forces whilst the Sages seek a way to stop Ganondorf -> The Sages seal the Dark World, turning all portals between LW and DW one way -> years pass -> Many disasters befall Hyrule -> A Wizard appears and stops the disasters -> the Wizard kills the King and usurps the throne, captures the Maidens, descendants of the Sages, and sacrifices them, sending them to the DW -> events of ALttP -> Link leaves on a journey -> events of LA -> A King rules with the whole triforce -> King hides ToC and writes a letter to future hero -> King dies, Prince inherits ToP and ToW -> A Wizard puts Zelda into an enchanted sleep -> Prince decrees all firstborn royal girls shall be named Zelda, hides Zelda's body -> years pass -> Ganon attacks small kingdom, steals ToP -> current Zelda hides ToW -> events of LoZ -> Link comes of age, finds sleeping Zelda's body, deciphers King's letter -> events of AoL

Creation -> IW -> ALttP -> LA -> SZ -> LoZ -> AoL

AST

It's a direct sequel to ALttP, occurring whilst Link is on a journey; cementing LA where we put it. (And negating the Master Sword sleeps forever line)

Hyrule is created -> The gods leave behind the triforce in the SR -> the Master Sword is created in case an evil person should obtain the triforce (JAP) -> a gang of thieves enter the SR, their leader (Ganondorf) takes the triforce and slays the rest -> Ganondorf wishes to rule the world -> The SR is transformed into the Dark World -> the Sages are gathered by the King -> they create the Master Sword but search in vain for a wielder(NOA)/they search in vain for the Master Sword and a wielder (JAP) -> Ganondorf's forces attack the Light World -> the Knights of Hyrule battle the forces whilst the Sages seek a way to stop Ganondorf -> The Sages seal the Dark World, turning all portals between LW and DW one way -> years pass -> Many disasters befall Hyrule -> A Wizard appears and stops the disasters -> the Wizard kills the King and usurps the throne, captures the Maidens, descendants of the Sages, and sacrifices them, sending them to the DW -> events of ALttP -> Link leaves on a journey -> events of LA and AST -> A King rules with the whole triforce -> King hides ToC and writes a letter to future hero -> King dies, Prince inherits ToP and ToW -> A Wizard puts Zelda into an enchanted sleep -> Prince decrees all firstborn royal girls shall be named Zelda, hides Zelda's body -> years pass -> Ganon attacks small kingdom, steals ToP -> current Zelda hides ToW -> events of LoZ -> Link comes of age, finds sleeping Zelda's body, deciphers King's letter -> events of AoL

Creation -> IW -> ALttP -> LA/AST -> SZ -> LoZ -> AoL

OoT

Here's the first real question; are the events of OoT those depicted in IW? Obviously there are some differences, so to say yes means we will have to ignore some canon stuff (either in OoT or ALttP) and consider it changed. So let's say OoT isn't the IW. It clearly comes after the creation of Hyrule, and the triforce is in the SR at the start, and split amongst three people at the end. Then it either comes before the IW, with some extra event needed to explain how the triforce was returned to the SR, Ganondorf escaped and the MS was moved; this requires the Japanese version of events, as the American version would make this impossible due to the MS. Or it comes between ALttP and SZ, with again an event needed to explain how we get from OoT to SZ and an event needed to explain how the triforce was returned to the SR and the ToT built; or it comes after AoL, with an event needed to explain how the trifroce returned to the SR and the ToT was built. I plump for the third option as requiring the least made up stuff; also, it seems as though the IW is the first time the triforce has ever been touched or removed from the SR, whereas in OoT it's clearly known about as evidenced by the complicated locking system on the SR portal.

Hyrule is created -> The goddesses leave behind the triforce in the SR -> the Master Sword is created in case an evil person should obtain the triforce (JAP) -> a gang of thieves enter the SR, their leader (Ganondorf) takes the triforce and slays the rest -> Ganondorf wishes to rule the world -> The SR is transformed into the Dark World -> the Sages are gathered by the King -> they create the Master Sword but search in vain for a wielder(NOA)/they search in vain for the Master Sword and a wielder (JAP) -> Ganondorf's forces attack the Light World -> the Knights of Hyrule battle the forces whilst the Sages seek a way to stop Ganondorf -> The Sages seal the Dark World, turning all portals between LW and DW one way -> years pass -> Many disasters befall Hyrule -> A Wizard appears and stops the disasters -> the Wizard kills the King and usurps the throne, captures the Maidens, descendants of the Sages, and sacrifices them, sending them to the DW -> events of ALttP -> Link leaves on a journey -> events of LA and AST -> A King rules with the whole triforce -> King hides ToC and writes a letter to future hero -> King dies, Prince inherits ToP and ToW -> A Wizard puts Zelda into an enchanted sleep -> Prince decrees all firstborn royal girls shall be named Zelda, hides Zelda's body -> years pass -> Ganon attacks small kingdom, steals ToP -> current Zelda hides ToW -> events of LoZ -> Link comes of age, finds sleeping Zelda's body, deciphers King's letter -> events of AoL -> (the triforce returns to the SR) -> (the ToT is built on the SR portal creatued by Agahnim in ALttP; it is sealed by the MS, OoT and three stones) -> a Hylian boy is brought to the forest -> events of OoT

Creation -> IW -> ALttP -> LA/AST -> SZ -> LoZ -> AoL -> OoT

MM

Direct sequel to OoT.

Hyrule is created -> The goddesses leave behind the triforce in the SR -> the Master Sword is created in case an evil person should obtain the triforce (JAP) -> a gang of thieves enter the SR, their leader (Ganondorf) takes the triforce and slays the rest -> Ganondorf wishes to rule the world -> The SR is transformed into the Dark World -> the Sages are gathered by the King -> they create the Master Sword but search in vain for a wielder(NOA)/they search in vain for the Master Sword and a wielder (JAP) -> Ganondorf's forces attack the Light World -> the Knights of Hyrule battle the forces whilst the Sages seek a way to stop Ganondorf -> The Sages seal the Dark World, turning all portals between LW and DW one way -> years pass -> Many disasters befall Hyrule -> A Wizard appears and stops the disasters -> the Wizard kills the King and usurps the throne, captures the Maidens, descendants of the Sages, and sacrifices them, sending them to the DW -> events of ALttP -> Link leaves on a journey -> events of LA and AST -> A King rules with the whole triforce -> King hides ToC and writes a letter to future hero -> King dies, Prince inherits ToP and ToW -> A Wizard puts Zelda into an enchanted sleep -> Prince decrees all firstborn royal girls shall be named Zelda, hides Zelda's body -> years pass -> Ganon attacks small kingdom, steals ToP -> current Zelda hides ToW -> events of LoZ -> Link comes of age, finds sleeping Zelda's body, deciphers King's letter -> events of AoL -> (the triforce returns to the SR) -> (the ToT is built on the SR portal creatued by Agahnim in ALttP; it is sealed by the MS, OoT and three stones) -> a Hylian boy is brought to the forest -> events of OoT

Creation -> IW -> ALttP -> LA/AST -> SZ -> LoZ -> AoL -> OoT -> MM

OoX

The triforce is whole and Ganon is dead at the beginning; so after LA/AST or after AoL are the best fits. We want to limit the Zeldas before SZ, though, and the crest on Link's hand could indicate after the King's spell. Also, OoX can clear up the unseen events needed before OoT; in OoX Ganon nearly returns. This could cause the people to decide to hide the triforce in the SR and lock it away, especially as they don't seem to be using it. Also, the MS is rediscovered in OoX, meaning it can then be placed in the ToT.

Hyrule is created -> The goddesses leave behind the triforce in the SR -> the Master Sword is created in case an evil person should obtain the triforce (JAP) -> a gang of thieves enter the SR, their leader (Ganondorf) takes the triforce and slays the rest -> Ganondorf wishes to rule the world -> The SR is transformed into the Dark World -> the Sages are gathered by the King -> they create the Master Sword but search in vain for a wielder(NOA)/they search in vain for the Master Sword and a wielder (JAP) -> Ganondorf's forces attack the Light World -> the Knights of Hyrule battle the forces whilst the Sages seek a way to stop Ganondorf -> The Sages seal the Dark World, turning all portals between LW and DW one way -> years pass -> Many disasters befall Hyrule -> A Wizard appears and stops the disasters -> the Wizard kills the King and usurps the throne, captures the Maidens, descendants of the Sages, and sacrifices them, sending them to the DW -> events of ALttP -> Link leaves on a journey -> events of LA and AST -> A King rules with the whole triforce -> King hides ToC and writes a letter to future hero -> King dies, Prince inherits ToP and ToW -> A Wizard puts Zelda into an enchanted sleep -> Prince decrees all firstborn royal girls shall be named Zelda, hides Zelda's body -> years pass -> Ganon attacks small kingdom, steals ToP -> current Zelda hides ToW -> events of LoZ -> Link comes of age, finds sleeping Zelda's body, deciphers King's letter -> events of AoL -> events of OoX -> (fearing another Ganondorf resurrection, the triforce is hidden in the SR) -> (the ToT is built on the SR portal creatued by Agahnim in ALttP; it is sealed by the recently rediscovered MS, OoT and three stones) -> a Hylian boy is brought to the forest -> events of OoT

Creation -> IW -> ALttP -> LA/AST -> SZ -> LoZ -> AoL -> OoX -> OoT -> MM

TWW

A direct sequel to OoT and MM. In the backstory, Ganon is seen attacking Hyrule, appearing from the Death Mountain area, after escaping the OoT sages seal. Theory: Before IW, there were several portals between the SR and LW. After the Sage's seal in IW these all became one way; people could still enter the SR/DW, but not leave (unless they had the Magic Mirror, presumably an item made and passed down by the Sages in case they needed to bypass their seal). In ALttP Agahnim created a new portal on Hyrule Castle, and sacrificed the maidens, causing the Sage's seal to begin to decay. Years later, people had forgotten about some of these portals. The Hyrule Castle portal created by Agahnim was used to hide the triforce, and the ToT built over it to keep it shut. Other temples seem to have been built on some of the portals to keep them shut, too - but there are fewer temples in OoT than there were portals in ALttP. In OoT, the sages open one of these sealed portals, puch Ganon through and seal it again behind him. I propose that prior to his escape in TWW's backstory, Ganon found one of the portals that didn't have a temple built over it; namely, one of the ones on Death Mountain. The IW Sage's seal having been broken by Agahnim's sacrifice, and this portal not having a temple built on it, allowed him to escape.

Hyrule is created -> The goddesses leave behind the triforce in the SR -> the Master Sword is created in case an evil person should obtain the triforce (JAP) -> a gang of thieves enter the SR, their leader (Ganondorf) takes the triforce and slays the rest -> Ganondorf wishes to rule the world -> The SR is transformed into the Dark World -> the Sages are gathered by the King -> they create the Master Sword but search in vain for a wielder(NOA)/they search in vain for the Master Sword and a wielder (JAP) -> Ganondorf's forces attack the Light World -> the Knights of Hyrule battle the forces whilst the Sages seek a way to stop Ganondorf -> The Sages seal the Dark World, turning all portals between LW and DW one way -> years pass -> Many disasters befall Hyrule -> A Wizard appears and stops the disasters -> the Wizard kills the King and usurps the throne, captures the Maidens, descendants of the Sages, and sacrifices them, sending them to the DW -> events of ALttP -> Link leaves on a journey -> events of LA and AST -> A King rules with the whole triforce -> King hides ToC and writes a letter to future hero -> King dies, Prince inherits ToP and ToW -> A Wizard puts Zelda into an enchanted sleep -> Prince decrees all firstborn royal girls shall be named Zelda, hides Zelda's body -> years pass -> Ganon attacks small kingdom, steals ToP -> current Zelda hides ToW -> events of LoZ -> Link comes of age, finds sleeping Zelda's body, deciphers King's letter -> events of AoL -> events of OoX -> (fearing another Ganondorf resurrection, the triforce is hidden in the SR) -> (the ToT is built on the SR portal creatued by Agahnim in ALttP; it is sealed by the recently rediscovered MS, OoT and three stones) -> a Hylian boy is brought to the forest -> events of OoT -> Ganon escapes the SR -> the people pray to the goddesses, and Hyrule is flooded, sealing Ganondorf -> Ganon escapes the goddesses seal -> events of TWW

Creation -> IW -> ALttP -> LA/AST -> SZ -> LoZ -> AoL -> OoX -> OoT -> MM -> TWW

TMC, FS, FSA

Must come in TMC -> FS -> FSA order. FSA is a direct sequel to FS with the same Link. FSA has a new Ganondorf, who is ultimately sealed in the FS but not killed; since we currently have Ganon is LoZ without a backstory, this could be his origin. TMC might come before IW; but it hardly matters much.

PH

Direct sequel to TWW.

TP

Messes up a single timeline nicely. Has to come prior to the flood in TWW which washes away Hyrule, but references make it quite clear that it comes after OoT. Either we have a split timeline (icky), we ignore the OoT reference and place TP earlier (um...) or we have TP occur after OoT whilst OoT Ganon is trapped in teh SR with a different Ganon. Two different Ganons exisitng simultaneously, and the ToP held by both? Ick. Um...

[joeymartin64]

Wrong. Even if they were, you'd have to consider the context of the surrounding words, which effects how you should translate it as. The Dark World of LTTP is separate from the Dark Realm, Dark Realm of FSA, Evil Realm, etc.

Is it? I remember there being a pretty big stink back when Oracle was one of the newer entries, and one of the then-rare Japanese readers/speakers confirmed that Dark World and Dark Realm were derived from the same Japanese. And what happened to the consensus that the Dark World was the Evil Realm? Did that go tits up when OoT being the Imprisoning War did?

Edited by joeymartin64, 04 August 2009 - 06:32 PM.

[GuardianNinja]

You have to ignore a bit either way, as Ganon in tp is the same from oot and ww, cause he was sealed and escaped and had ToP.
@Showsni

[Jarsh]

Wrong. Even if they were, you'd have to consider the context of the surrounding words, which effects how you should translate it as. The Dark World of LTTP is separate from the Dark Realm, Dark Realm of FSA, Evil Realm, etc.

Is it? I remember there being a pretty big stink back when Oracle was one of the newer entries, and one of the then-rare Japanese readers/speakers confirmed that Dark World and Dark Realm were derived from the same Japanese. And what happened to the consensus that the Dark World was the Evil Realm? Did that go tits up when OoT being the Imprisoning War did?

Actually, I'm kinda glad you brought this up. The whole Dark World thing in OoX is really bothering me. I know it's veering off the topic a little, but what do you guys think about the Yami no Sekai of OoX?

[joeymartin64]

I really don't like using sources like this one, so please, someone correct the hell out of me if this is wrong. According to Zelda Wiki, it's referred to as "Yami no Sekai" in ALttP, OoT (which also calls it "Makai), and Oracle. FSA also uses the terms "interchangably" for whatever that's worth. I can see them all being the same place, but I'm totally willing to hear other ideas.

[GuardianNinja]

So whats it supposed to mean, do you really believe there a twilight realm, dark realm, hell, and sacred realm??? kinda screwy dont you think?

[MikePetersSucks]

Perhaps the idea of ganon is spread across many races, not just gerado, perhaps there was a ganon that was Hylian?

The hell did you get this from?

Is it? I remember there being a pretty big stink back when Oracle was one of the newer entries, and one of the then-rare Japanese readers/speakers confirmed that Dark World and Dark Realm were derived from the same Japanese. And what happened to the consensus that the Dark World was the Evil Realm? Did that go tits up when OoT being the Imprisoning War did?

I never heard any such consensus. It would've been a wrong consensus. I don't know about this other guy, but I was born and raised in Japan, so while I prefer not to translate directly, I usually clarify or correct translations put on this board. Dark World and Dark Realm and such are derived slightly differently. Of course, this was months ago, and I barely remember. Dark World was Yami no Sekai, and Dark Realm or Evil Realm were "Maou no Makujin" or "Makai" or...something? Someone help a brother out, there.

Actually, I'm kinda glad you brought this up. The whole Dark World thing in OoX is really bothering me. I know it's veering off the topic a little, but what do you guys think about the Yami no Sekai of OoX?

I really don't like using sources like this one, so please, someone correct the hell out of me if this is wrong. According to Zelda Wiki, it's referred to as "Yami no Sekai" in ALttP, OoT (which also calls it "Makai), and Oracle. FSA also uses the terms "interchangably" for whatever that's worth. I can see them all being the same place, but I'm totally willing to hear other ideas.

Zelda Wiki is shit, btw.

Yami no Sekai is used the same in both LTTP and OOT, though Yami no Sekai is only used properly I think after Ganon is sealed, or something. It's otherwise refered to as a Makai, overlapping with what he's turning Hyrule into.

As for FSA and OOX, they use it, but with different identifiers, so that while the proper words can be literally translated as "Yami no Sekai", "Makai" is more appropriate for FSA, and OOX has identifiers implying it should be "Kage no Kokudo."

[Showsni]

Well, what term is used in AoL? That's the closest meaning to the OoX term based on an English reading, though the Japanese might be completely different...

"At that time, Ganon's underlings were calling up new allies from the Underworld, and were beginning to work devilishly towards the revival of Ganon."

"Gwah hah hah! I was summoned from the Dark Realm by Twinrova. See my true form! Feel the might of a dark dragon!"

[Jarsh]

As for FSA and OOX, they use it, but with different identifiers, so that while the proper words can be literally translated as "Yami no Sekai", "Makai" is more appropriate for FSA, and OOX has identifiers implying it should be "Kage no Kokudo."

A rough translator on the web made "Kage no Kokudo" out to be "Realm of Shade". Is that accurate? At any rate, it's probably a different Dark World than the one from ALttP, right?

[joeymartin64]

Zelda Wiki is shit, btw.

Eh. Figured as much.

Yami no Sekai is used the same in both LTTP and OOT, though Yami no Sekai is only used properly I think after Ganon is sealed, or something. It's otherwise refered to as a Makai, overlapping with what he's turning Hyrule into.

Following so far.

As for FSA and OOX, they use it, but with different identifiers, so that while the proper words can be literally translated as "Yami no Sekai", "Makai" is more appropriate for FSA, and OOX has identifiers implying it should be "Kage no Kokudo."

Would a crash course on "identifiers" be out of the question? Feel free to reject this; I'm just curious here.

A rough translator on the web made "Kage no Kokudo" out to be "Realm of Shade". Is that accurate? At any rate, it's probably a different Dark World than the one from ALttP, right?

From what little I know of Japanese, "kage" means "shadow." I can see the logic behind there being contexts where it also means "shade," but don't even think about taking my word for it.

Ultimately, I'm always for having as few parallel dimensions as possible, so whether it's the Evil Realm, Dark World, Dark Realm, Shadow Realm, Shadow World, Realm of Darkness, or whatever the crap else, I'd just as soon consider them the same place. Compelling evidence to the contrary will absolutely change my mind, however.

[MikePetersSucks]

A rough translator on the web made "Kage no Kokudo" out to be "Realm of Shade". Is that accurate? At any rate, it's probably a different Dark World than the one from ALttP, right?

Pretty much. FSA's "dark" is more of a shadowy sort. The "Dark World" is even a shade of Hyrule and such.

Would a crash course on "identifiers" be out of the question? Feel free to reject this; I'm just curious here.

Basically, it works the same way that we know the word "saw" means either "I saw something in the distance" or "I cut something with my saw." But Japanese has no synonyms, so you change the entire damn word, even if they share symbols and such.

Ultimately, I'm always for having as few parallel dimensions as possible, so whether it's the Evil Realm, Dark World, Dark Realm, Shadow Realm, Shadow World, Realm of Darkness, or whatever the crap else, I'd just as soon consider them the same place. Compelling evidence to the contrary will absolutely change my mind, however.

You and your arbitrarily slicing down on universes.

If it's any consolation, it's implied that the Dark World of FSA was created with the Dark Mirror and disposed of at the end of the game; so it was a temporary unnatural world. Similar with the Dark Realm of the Sacred Realm.

Aside from them both, the Underworld/Evil Realm/etc are seem to be just subterranian dungeons and such, as implied by LOZ and AOL.

[joeymartin64]

Basically, it works the same way that we know the word "saw" means either "I saw something in the distance" or "I cut something with my saw." But Japanese has no synonyms, so you change the entire damn word, even if they share symbols and such.

I think I get it. Well, enough for the purpose of this discussion, anyway.

You and your arbitrarily slicing down on universes.

Yes, silly me. Heh.

Similar with the Dark Realm of the Sacred Realm.

"Dark Realm of the Sacred Realm"?

Aside from them both, the Underworld/Evil Realm/etc are seem to be just subterranian dungeons and such, as implied by LOZ and AOL.

So, Oracle's Evil Realm is supposedly LoZ's literal underground Underworld? Is that what you're getting at here?

[MikePetersSucks]

"Dark Realm of the Sacred Realm"?

As in "The Dark World created by Ganon's twisting of the Sacred Realm."

So, Oracle's Evil Realm is supposedly LoZ's literal underground Underworld? Is that what you're getting at here?

Could be, in a sort of Greek mythology fashion. The words are the same, at any rate, and if you put OOX after LOZ/AOL like I do...