56 replies to this topic

[ganonlord6000]

I think I should explain why I put FSA where it is. If you watch the forth video on my list it explains it breifly. I already mentioned that FSA is a complete mess before but I should have mentioned earlier that I believe that FSA is a prequel to the NES games and not ALTTP. The White Sword being in TMC was the clue for me. The White Sword was in the original Zelda and wasn't seen again until TMC when it is shown to be the Four Sword when it has no power. Putting the White Sword in TMC can't be an accident as it has only been in one other game before that. It would also explain how Ganon returned in LOZ. Believing he was ressurrected between LA and LOZ requires a lot of speculation as there is no proof of Ganon being ressurrected between these games. ALTTP and LOZ can easily have two entirely different Ganons as both were killed by the same thing(silver arrows) and we know that these things can actually kill him as LOZ, AOL, and both versions of ALTTP seem to imply. And if the trident was destroyed in ALTTP how can it be in the oracles and possibly LOZ? Besides, FSA would be interupted by the IW if it was before ALTTP as one would need to think of how that Ganon became human again and lost his king of darkness title in order for FSA's Ganon to be ALTTP's Ganon. The only thing logical would be that he lost the trident as that is what turned FSA's Ganondorf into Ganon in the first place. We know this can't be the case as ALTTP's Ganon has the trident when he is in the dark world. And the map in FSA is one of the few in the Zelda universe that can possibly fit the stage select in FSA. While the story was meant to be ALTTP's IW while it was in development, that storyline was trashed at the last minute and while the story had to be changed there was no reason as to why the map should be changed as it fits the gameplay and is a basic map of Hyrule. However, It can still be several centuries after ALTTP's Ganon's death and the only ones who knew about him in ALTTP were the maidens and the other desendents of the sages and even they didn't know much about him. Let a few centuries pass and Ganon would be forgotten completly. The maps in every game TWW-TP have even proved to be somewhat useless.

[GuardianNinja]

Okay im gonna go out on a limb here. The trident is of no importance, at all. It wasnt with pig form Ganon in OoT therefore it serves no purpose at all.

Edited by GuardianNinja, 03 August 2009 - 12:59 PM.

[Sir Turtlelot]

Honestly, the only game I think that the Trident is at all important, would be FSA. In ALttP, the OS, & BS LoZ I think it's nothing more than a weapon Ganon is wielding.

[MikePetersSucks]

I think I should explain why I put FSA where it is. If you watch the forth video on my list it explains it breifly. I already mentioned that FSA is a complete mess before but I should have mentioned earlier that I believe that FSA is a prequel to the NES games and not ALTTP. The White Sword being in TMC was the clue for me. The White Sword was in the original Zelda and wasn't seen again until TMC when it is shown to be the Four Sword when it has no power.

Stupid argument. The White Sword turns into the Four Sword and even then it has magical powers. the White Sword of LoZ has no such powers. They're both just swords that are white, dude.

It would also explain how Ganon returned in LOZ. Believing he was ressurrected between LA and LOZ requires a lot of speculation as there is no proof of Ganon being ressurrected between these games.

He could've reincarnated, then used the Triforce of Power to turn into a pig demon. No big deal.

And if the trident was destroyed in ALTTP how can it be in the oracles and possibly LOZ?

He got a new one. It's just a trident, dude.

Besides, FSA would be interupted by the IW if it was before ALTTP as one would need to think of how that Ganon became human again and lost his king of darkness title in order for FSA's Ganon to be ALTTP's Ganon. The only thing logical would be that he lost the trident as that is what turned FSA's Ganondorf into Ganon in the first place. We know this can't be the case as ALTTP's Ganon has the trident when he is in the dark world. And the map in FSA is one of the few in the Zelda universe that can possibly fit the stage select in FSA. While the story was meant to be ALTTP's IW while it was in development, that storyline was trashed at the last minute and while the story had to be changed there was no reason as to why the map should be changed as it fits the gameplay and is a basic map of Hyrule.

Simple. Ganon breaks out of the Four Sword, takes a human form with his magic so he can get into the Sacred Realm without suspicion, kills his comrades, takes the Triforce, Imprisoning War happens. You're getting way too hung up on stupidly unimportant details, dude.

However, It can still be several centuries after ALTTP's Ganon's death and the only ones who knew about him in ALTTP were the maidens and the other desendents of the sages and even they didn't know much about him. Let a few centuries pass and Ganon would be forgotten completly. The maps in every game TWW-TP have even proved to be somewhat useless.

If you put FSA before LTTP, you don't even need the centuries gap to explain why no one recognizes Ganondorf. He hasn't done anything yet since TP, and inbetween then everyone was more concerned with Vaati and stuff.

[Person]

The White Sword in TMC probably has no connection to the one in LoZ. In LoZ, it's not the strongest sword, and Link just gets rid of it when he gets the Magical Sword.
Moreover, the Trident is not destroyed in ALttP. Ganon just "dies" but manages to come back in AST, with the Trident. Wouldn't it be better to assume that the game in which Ganon gets the Trident happens before all of the games where he uses it?
The Knights problem is also a biggie. Your answer that "they're just another group" ignores the fact that the order of Hylian Knights is based on a bloodline that has all but died out by ALttP. Logic would put a game featuring the deaths of these knights before a game in which they're stated to be long dead.
My opinion of the IW is this: It's mostly FSA, but with Ganon doing the whole Triforce thing sometime afterwards. I would point to the Palace of the Four Sword to prove this, but then people would jump on me for arguing an Easter Egg.

[ganonlord6000]

Is it impossible to believe that the four sword lost power? If the Master Sword can be weakened then the Four Sword can easily weaken. And why use AST as evidence? If only FSA was a lot clearer especially with the fight against Ganon at the end when Zelda not only knew a little bit about Ganon, she also knew who he once was and basically said that Ganon was "revived from ancient times" which, I heard, was in the Japanese version. And TMC's White sword didn't have any power until it was fused with the elements. Besides that. The two tridents can be entirely different from each other with the new Ganon wanting the power his predesestor had by stealing a Trident. I also haven't played FSA in a while and I'll update this timeline once I'm finished playing through FSA again. And please don't use the Palace of the Four Sword as evidence as it is a meaningless gameplay element and has nothing to do with the story or the timeline. That on top of the fact that it has limited accessability.

[GuardianNinja]

and the wooden sword used to shoot beams, just an example of just letting go of old facts.

[MikePetersSucks]

Moreover, the Trident is not destroyed in ALttP. Ganon just "dies" but manages to come back in AST, with the Trident. Wouldn't it be better to assume that the game in which Ganon gets the Trident happens before all of the games where he uses it?

1) We see Ganon explode while holding the Trident. It vanishes with the rest of him.
2) The Trident isn't important, and there could be more than one.

Is it impossible to believe that the four sword lost power? If the Master Sword can be weakened then the Four Sword can easily weaken.

The Master Sword was still the Master Sword when it was weakened. The White Swords of both games are nothing alike, get over it.

And why use AST as evidence?

Why not?

If only FSA was a lot clearer especially with the fight against Ganon at the end when Zelda not only knew a little bit about Ganon, she also knew who he once was and basically said that Ganon was "revived from ancient times" which, I heard, was in the Japanese version.

It wasn't.

And TMC's White sword didn't have any power until it was fused with the elements.

The backround fluff said it had remnants of the Power of Evil's Bane, so...not true.

And please don't use the Palace of the Four Sword as evidence as it is a meaningless gameplay element and has nothing to do with the story or the timeline.

Says who?

[Average Gamer]

1) We see Ganon explode while holding the Trident. It vanishes with the rest of him.

Actually, Ganon abandoned his trident half-way through the fight in ALttP. The fact that he simply threw it away does reinforce your second point though. Ganon's trident in ALttP was apparently just a normal weapon.

[ganonlord6000]

I actually started thinking about two new timeline theories last night. Both of them are listed below:

Timeline 1:
C.T. /TWW/PH--ST
TMC--OOT
A.T. \MM--TP--(FS)/FSA--ALTTP/LA--OOX--LOZ/AOL


Timeline 2:
Main games timeline:

A.T./TWW/PH--ST
OOT
C.T.\MM--TP--ALTTP/LA--OOX--LOZ/AOL

FS games timeline:

TMC--FS--FSA

Which one do the rest of you think makes more sense? This theory has the FS games in a seperate timeline because they really don't fit well with the main games.

[GuardianNinja]

Nether, there split

[MikePetersSucks]

Actually, Ganon abandoned his trident half-way through the fight in ALttP. The fact that he simply threw it away does reinforce your second point though. Ganon's trident in ALttP was apparently just a normal weapon.

Doesn't it come back like a boomerang or something? Or am I remembering the FSA bossfight? Eitherway, he doesn't do any of the cool magical shit with it like he did in FSA.

Ganonlord6000, I prefer the first theory. There's no reason to put the Four Swords series in their own universe when they go together fine.

[GuardianNinja]

Yeah he boomerangs it for the first 2 stages then he just jumps the last of the fight

[bjamez7573]

I think I should explain why I put FSA where it is. If you watch the forth video on my list it explains it breifly. I already mentioned that FSA is a complete mess before but I should have mentioned earlier that I believe that FSA is a prequel to the NES games and not ALTTP. The White Sword being in TMC was the clue for me. The White Sword was in the original Zelda and wasn't seen again until TMC when it is shown to be the Four Sword when it has no power. Putting the White Sword in TMC can't be an accident as it has only been in one other game before that. It would also explain how Ganon returned in LOZ. Believing he was ressurrected between LA and LOZ requires a lot of speculation as there is no proof of Ganon being ressurrected between these games. ALTTP and LOZ can easily have two entirely different Ganons as both were killed by the same thing(silver arrows) and we know that these things can actually kill him as LOZ, AOL, and both versions of ALTTP seem to imply. And if the trident was destroyed in ALTTP how can it be in the oracles and possibly LOZ? Besides, FSA would be interupted by the IW if it was before ALTTP as one would need to think of how that Ganon became human again and lost his king of darkness title in order for FSA's Ganon to be ALTTP's Ganon. The only thing logical would be that he lost the trident as that is what turned FSA's Ganondorf into Ganon in the first place. We know this can't be the case as ALTTP's Ganon has the trident when he is in the dark world. And the map in FSA is one of the few in the Zelda universe that can possibly fit the stage select in FSA. While the story was meant to be ALTTP's IW while it was in development, that storyline was trashed at the last minute and while the story had to be changed there was no reason as to why the map should be changed as it fits the gameplay and is a basic map of Hyrule. However, It can still be several centuries after ALTTP's Ganon's death and the only ones who knew about him in ALTTP were the maidens and the other desendents of the sages and even they didn't know much about him. Let a few centuries pass and Ganon would be forgotten completly. The maps in every game TWW-TP have even proved to be somewhat useless.

As for the White Sword, you're hanging a lot on a connection that seems to be name-only. There isn't any other connection between the white sword in TMC and LOZ (as there powers seem completely different)

You could easily explain the Trident if you placed LOZ/AOL/OOX pre-OOT. Doing this would explain the "Ancient Demon Reborn" line in FSA (as LOZ's Ganon used it) and there wouldn't be a problem putting FSA before ALTTP as ALTTP is the last game where Ganon uses the Trident.

Not to mention - no retconning of the sleeping zelda story

I actually started thinking about two new timeline theories last night. Both of them are listed below:

Timeline 1:
C.T. /TWW/PH--ST
TMC--OOT
A.T. \MM--TP--(FS)/FSA--ALTTP/LA--OOX--LOZ/AOL


Timeline 2:
Main games timeline:

A.T./TWW/PH--ST
OOT
C.T.\MM--TP--ALTTP/LA--OOX--LOZ/AOL

FS games timeline:

TMC--FS--FSA

Which one do the rest of you think makes more sense? This theory has the FS games in a seperate timeline because they really don't fit well with the main games.

I definitely think the first one is preferable - except you should think about putting LOZ/AOL/OOX between TMC and OOT. I would say the second one, but FSA features Ganondorf and it has too many connections with ALTTP to simply be cast aside into its own timeline.

Moreover, the Trident is not destroyed in ALttP. Ganon just "dies" but manages to come back in AST, with the Trident. Wouldn't it be better to assume that the game in which Ganon gets the Trident happens before all of the games where he uses it?

That may be the case with ALTTP's Ganondorf, but LOZ's Ganon is so ambiguous that it could be a different Ganon that uses the Trident. With the "ancient demon reborn" line, it conceivable that it was used in the past by someone else.

The Knights problem is also a biggie. Your answer that "they're just another group" ignores the fact that the order of Hylian Knights is based on a bloodline that has all but died out by ALttP. Logic would put a game featuring the deaths of these knights before a game in which they're stated to be long dead.

They're not quite dead - Link is the last of the bloodline. Its very conceivable that Link reinstated the Knights of Hyrule, although it does seem slightly more probable that a game where the Knights are not dead and seemed to be referenced as the original knights comes before the one where only Link remains.

My opinion of the IW is this: It's mostly FSA, but with Ganon doing the whole Triforce thing sometime afterwards. I would point to the Palace of the Four Sword to prove this, but then people would jump on me for arguing an Easter Egg.

I agree with you on this. One of the problems with FSA-ALTTP is the that Ganon is trapped in the Four Sword but then attains the Triforce in the IW. With the Palace of the Four Sword as canon, you could speculate that Ganon escaped the Four Sword (which seems to be placed in the Sacred Realm), and then immediately went after the Triforce, which then leads into the IW.

I don't quite understand why Palace of the Four Sword is so easily categorized as an easter egg or gameplay element with no story, as it could have been a foresight of FSA as the Imprisoning War and its connection with ALTTP.

[Person]

I don't quite understand why Palace of the Four Sword is so easily categorized as an easter egg or gameplay element with no story, as it could have been a foresight of FSA as the Imprisoning War and its connection with ALTTP.

My opinion of it is that the story writers went "Oh crap we have to change the ending but he have to shoehorn in Ganon somehow! Maybe we can use that bonus dungeon as some kind of plothole-filler! Yeah! That's good!"

That may be the case with ALTTP's Ganondorf, but LOZ's Ganon is so ambiguous that it could be a different Ganon that uses the Trident. With the "ancient demon reborn" line, it conceivable that it was used in the past by someone else.

Except that the ancient demon reborn line is not in the original Japanese, could easily refer to OoT Ganon, and the Japanese manual for ALttP mentions that Ganon was "born" during the time of the Seal War. If we're working with a multiple-Ganons theory, which most people are, that would mean that Ganon II's origins would have to be before ALttP. i.e. FSA.

[ganonlord6000]

Timeline 2:
Main games timeline:

A.T./TWW/PH--ST
OOT
C.T.\MM--TP--ALTTP/LA--OOX--LOZ/AOL

FS games timeline:

TMC--FS--FSA

I forgot that I actually posted this theory. I was thinking of something else when I was typing this. The timeline listed below is my actual theory 2:

A.T. /TWW/PH--ST
MC--OOT
C.T. \MM--TP--(FS)/FSA--ALTTP/LA--LOZ/AOL--OOX

[bjamez7573]

That may be the case with ALTTP's Ganondorf, but LOZ's Ganon is so ambiguous that it could be a different Ganon that uses the Trident. With the "ancient demon reborn" line, it conceivable that it was used in the past by someone else.

Except that the ancient demon reborn line is not in the original Japanese, could easily refer to OoT Ganon, and the Japanese manual for ALttP mentions that Ganon was "born" during the time of the Seal War. If we're working with a multiple-Ganons theory, which most people are, that would mean that Ganon II's origins would have to be before ALttP. i.e. FSA.

Well, I thought the text meant "evil device reborn" or something like that, indicating previous usage. That doesn't mean to say that it has to be ALTTP's Ganondorf, like what ganonlord6000 is saying. But OOT's Ganondorf? He was never shown to use the Trident and although it could be, having LOZ's Ganon as the previous owner would make more sense than OOT's. However, there really isn't any evidence to point one way or another. But the fact is, Ganondorf getting the Trident in FSA does not have to be the first time it is used (unless the Ganondorf's are the same, which I think they are in FSA and ALTTP, but not necessarily LOZ). A different Ganondorf could have easily used it before then

[ganonlord6000]

I'm actually working on a new timeline theory and video at the moment. I'll post them here when I'm finished.

[Zola Revolution]

Well, I think that if there were a timeline, it would go something like this:

WW:PH:MC:FS:FSA:OA
OT<
MM:TP:LP:LA:LZ:AL:OS

However, while I was recently playing through Wind Waker again, I noticed something very interesting:

Link, do you know the legend of Hero of Time?

Once, long ago, he defeated Ganon and brought peace to the Kingdom of Hyrule...

A piece of the Triforce was given to the Hero of Time and he kept it safe, much as Zelda kept hers.

That sacred piece is known as the Triforce of Courage.

When the hero of time was called to embark on another journey and left the land of Hyrule, he was separated from the elements that made him a hero.

--King Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule

*Double takes* wha-wha-what? Wait a minute, but Ocarina of Time splits...wrong. It is impossible for the King of Red Lions to know of an alternate past that never happened. Therefore, if there is a split timeline, then it would split somewhere else. However, no other game could possibly have this possibility, since the rest of the stories stay in one time and no one else time-travels.

Single timeline:

[MikePetersSucks]

Well, I think that if there were a timeline, it would go something like this:

WW:PH:MC:FS:FSA:OA
OT<
MM:TP:LP:LA:LZ:AL:OS

*Double takes* wha-wha-what? Wait a minute, but Ocarina of Time splits...wrong. It is impossible for the King of Red Lions to know of an alternate past that never happened. Therefore, if there is a split timeline, then it would split somewhere else. However, no other game could possibly have this possibility, since the rest of the stories stay in one time and no one else time-travels.

Wrong. The King of Red Lions is referring to when the Hero of Time went back to the past in the first place and left Hyrule as far as anyone could know. The Japanese dialog from that scene even has the King of Red lions say he "went back in time."

[Zola Revolution]

Wrong. The King of Red Lions is referring to when the Hero of Time went back to the past in the first place and left Hyrule as far as anyone could know. The Japanese dialog from that scene even has the King of Red lions say he "went back in time."

OK then, so you're saying that Link embarked on a journey to the past, right? That is one way to look at it, I suppose.

And, well, I knew someone was going to bring this up. I thought about it, too. However, Link did not go back in time by his will and effort, he had Zelda send him. So, if that is what the King of Red Lions was talking about, then he would have made it clear that it was through time, and he seemed to imply that it was to another earthly place in his time.

[Person]

Wrong. The King of Red Lions is referring to when the Hero of Time went back to the past in the first place and left Hyrule as far as anyone could know. The Japanese dialog from that scene even has the King of Red lions say he "went back in time."

OK then, so you're saying that Link embarked on a journey to the past, right? That is one way to look at it, I suppose.

And, well, I knew someone was going to bring this up. I thought about it, too. However, Link did not go back in time by his will and effort, he had Zelda send him. So, if that is what the King of Red Lions was talking about, then he would have made it clear that it was through time, and he seemed to imply that it was to another earthly place in his time.

The Japanese dialogue from that scene says that he went back in time. Clear-cut and simple. Only the mistranslated English dialogue leaves wiggle room like that.

[Zola Revolution]

The Japanese dialogue from that scene says that he went back in time. Clear-cut and simple. Only the mistranslated English dialogue leaves wiggle room like that.

Really, can you show me?

[Person]

The Japanese dialogue from that scene says that he went back in time. Clear-cut and simple. Only the mistranslated English dialogue leaves wiggle room like that.

Really, can you show me?

It was called the Triforce of Courage. It is said that when the Hero of Time traveled through time and left Hyrule, he was separated from the source of being a hero and the Triforce of Courage turned into 8 fragments and scattered throughout the land.

There you go. He traveled through time.

[Zola Revolution]

That's nice and all, but are you able to give it to me in its language of origin?

[Zola Revolution]

Nevermind. Found it. And wow, that is a big help. I am now looking japanese versions of, pretty much all zelda games.

[Zola Revolution]

.

Edited by リンクの獰猛な神, 23 August 2009 - 02:08 PM.