30 replies to this topic

[Person]

Okay, I somehow got myself into a debate with an idiot on GamFAQs who apparently thinks that the Zelda manga are canon, and even supersede the games in some cases. Nothing seems to be working on him about how they contradict the games, etc. His basic argument for them being canon is that they "fit better into canon" than the games and that "Nintendo has never said that they are not canon."

The basic clincher of this is that he started an argument that Sheik was male because the manga said so. I said SSBB showed a newer version of Sheik that was obviously female, and then he said something about how SSBB was just "pandering to the fanboys" and that the manga was the one true canon!! Of course, he also said the Link/Zelda ship was canon (don't know where he pulled that from).

There are two basic questions here:
1.What disqualifies the manga from canon status?
2.Do games like SSBB show updated creator intent for characters, even if they are not canon themselves?

[Showsni]

Canon is a tricky subject; it's really up to each individual what they want to use as canon. If we want to effectively argue theories, you need to be coming from the same place; and on this board, that's generally the Japanese games are canon. But a viewpoint of the English versions are canon, or the manga are canon, or the manuals and CYOA books are the only canon, is certainly valid; if that's what your theory's based on, then more power to you. There isn't one set of "this is canon and nothing else" per se. Any theory should really stat by defining what it takes as canon.

Unless you're of the viewpoint that Nintendo really do have one big secret document showing the official timeline, and you're trying to work out what it is; then you want to be using the same canon as them, which is assumendly the Japanese games, but we can't really tell (not being privy to Nintendo's secrets).

So if he wants to argue from the premise that the manga are canon, then that's his privilege; but his theory will then have nothing to do with a theory taking a different set of canon, and you can't argue against it unless you use his canon. If he's claiming that his set of canon is Nintendo's set, then arguing against it is impossible as we don't know for sure what Nintendo's set is. (I mean, looking at OoT it seems like they did take Sound and Drama as canon for a while).

[Person]

Canon is a tricky subject; it's really up to each individual what they want to use as canon. If we want to effectively argue theories, you need to be coming from the same place; and on this board, that's generally the Japanese games are canon. But a viewpoint of the English versions are canon, or the manga are canon, or the manuals and CYOA books are the only canon, is certainly valid; if that's what your theory's based on, then more power to you. There isn't one set of "this is canon and nothing else" per se. Any theory should really stat by defining what it takes as canon.

Unless you're of the viewpoint that Nintendo really do have one big secret document showing the official timeline, and you're trying to work out what it is; then you want to be using the same canon as them, which is assumendly the Japanese games, but we can't really tell (not being privy to Nintendo's secrets).

So if he wants to argue from the premise that the manga are canon, then that's his privilege; but his theory will then have nothing to do with a theory taking a different set of canon, and you can't argue against it unless you use his canon. If he's claiming that his set of canon is Nintendo's set, then arguing against it is impossible as we don't know for sure what Nintendo's set is. (I mean, looking at OoT it seems like they did take Sound and Drama as canon for a while).

The difficulty is in arguing creator intent. The manga contradict the games on several occasions, but elements from them like a bird race and fairy companions were eventually incorporated into the games. It's my opinion that even though SSBB is irreconcilable with the main Zelda canon, certain parts of it can be taken as creator intent. The parts of it pertaining to Zelda stick fairly close to canon, even closer than the American versions at points, because the trophies were a direct translation from Japanese with little localization. Some of Snake's codec conversations reference stuff like the multiple Links. And since the Link and Zelda of SSBB are an amalgamation of their OoT and TP selves, I take the female Sheik of SSBB as the newest creator intent for the character. Of course, an argument this nuanced goes over the head of someone who apparently disregards game canon if it contradicts manga. It doesn't help that the question of Sheik's gender is never resolved in canon.

[Duke Serkol]

I have a better question: why waste time arguing with people like this?


As for Sheik in Brawl, while it does look like this incarnation of Sheik is female, we must not forget that this is TP Zelda's transformation into Sheik, which may be different from OoT Zelda in more ways than just clothing detailsc (I'm not sure what makes you think that the Link and Zelda in Brawl are "amalgamations" of their OoT and Tp selves but... I definitely don't see that).

Generally, yeah, I would say trophy descriptions and the like should be considered relatively reliable.
Then again, I don't really buy what the Redead trophy in Melee says about them being magical creatures and not actual undead. Sounds to me like the same crap we got with the ALttP translation making it sound like the maidens weren't killed... (maybe someone should re-translate that trophy's description).

Edited by Duke Serkol, 20 June 2009 - 07:44 AM.

[Person]

I have a better question: why waste time arguing with people like this?


As for Sheik in Brawl, while it does look like this incarnation of Sheik is female, we must not forget that this is TP Zelda's transformation into Sheik, which may be different from OoT Zelda in more ways than just clothing detailsc (I'm not sure what makes you think that the Link and Zelda in Brawl are "amalgamations" of their OoT and Tp selves but... I definitely don't see that).

Generally, yeah, I would say trophy descriptions and the like should be considered relatively reliable.
Then again, I don't really buy what the Redead trophy in Melee says about them being magical creatures and not actual undead. Sounds to me like the same crap we got with the ALttP translation making it sound like the maidens weren't killed... (maybe someone should re-translate that trophy's description).

The Melee trophy descriptions suffered the same fate the ALttP manual did, and there are significant differences between them and the Japanese version. The Brawl trophies almost disregard localization entirely, with the Fire Emblem trophies being a bit confusing because they kept the Japanese names for things when it was changed in the US.

As for the "amalgamation" thing: Link from Brawl certainly looks like TP Link, but he has Navi as one of his taunts, and one of his taunts is the same as in the original SSB, indicating that it's supposed to be the same Link from SSB and SSBM, who was based on OoT Link. They just updated his appearance. The Sheik thing I'm just doing the same for. SSBB Zelda looks like TP Zelda, but the Sheik transformation again makes her like OoT Zelda. I think Snake's codec conversation with her makes references to the plot of OoT, too, but I might be remembering that wrong.

Of course, that doesn't solve the basic problem I got into of using a non-canon game to try and disprove a non-canon source. *sigh* I guess it was stupid to argue with somebody like this.

[Duke Serkol]

The Melee trophy descriptions suffered the same fate the ALttP manual did, and there are significant differences between them and the Japanese version. The Brawl trophies almost disregard localization entirely, with the Fire Emblem trophies being a bit confusing because they kept the Japanese names for things when it was changed in the US.

Ah, I see. Interesting.

As for the "amalgamation" thing: Link from Brawl certainly looks like TP Link, but he has Navi as one of his taunts, and one of his taunts is the same as in the original SSB, indicating that it's supposed to be the same Link from SSB and SSBM, who was based on OoT Link.

Personally, I think that only indicatees just how terrifyingly lazy they were wtih this game. Like with Wolf's Final Smash, they didn't even bother making a texture for his landmaster (let alone alter the polygonal model as they should) they just recolored the sides of the damn thing and called it a day's work.
(...and who's to say that it's Navi anyway? It's not even blue)

SSBB Zelda looks like TP Zelda, but the Sheik transformation again makes her like OoT Zelda.

Well, if they hadn't allowed her turn into Sheik, that would have required them to do some work in order not to make her disappointing to people who played as Zelda/Sheik in Melee. That's just crazy thinking. Like the idea that maybe Ganondorf should not have been once again a bulkier stronger Captain Falcon. Heaven forbid they should actually get down to business and make hims fight -anything- like he does in the actual Zelda games.

I think Snake's codec conversation with her makes references to the plot of OoT, too, but I might be remembering that wrong.

Just checked, nothing referencing OoT, not for Zelda nor Sheik.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 20 June 2009 - 12:15 PM.

[Person]

(...and who's to say that it's Navi anyway? It's not even blue)

OoT Link and TWW Link are the only Links ever to have had a fairy companion. Who do you think she was based on?

[Duke Serkol]

"Random fairy put into a bottle"?
"Fairy that was originally Navi but lost her identity when they changed Link to his TP self and she got decolored yet stayed in the game because taking her out would have meant having to create a new taunt which was too much work"? (Wow, that is one heck of a long name...)

[MikePetersSucks]

The manga contradicts the games on multiple, multiple occasions. Especially since if we're going to canonize one manga, we have to canonize them all. The TMC and FSA aren't even possible with EACH OTHER, much less the games they represent.

[Person]

The manga contradicts the games on multiple, multiple occasions. Especially since if we're going to canonize one manga, we have to canonize them all. The TMC and FSA aren't even possible with EACH OTHER, much less the games they represent.

Weren't they written by the same guy?
Although it was interesting to think about the ramifications of those two. If we go and accept them as canon, then apparently Shadow Link blogs about an imaginary girlfriend and looks just like Link with black hair.

I brought up the three different, contradictory ALttP mangas but he apparently still thinks that the manga "fit better into canon" because Sheik was similar to a character from the ALttP manga and the Ritos were ripped from the OoT manga.

[Fin]

That's retarded. The most he can say is that the manga served as a source of inspiration for the games, but if you call that "canon" then various Earth mythologies should be considered Zelda canon.

As for the Sheik thing, I always figured Nintendo made her female in Bros to make things less awkward for people unfamiliar with OoT. But honestly, I couldn't care less what gender Sheik is.

Edited by Fintin O'Brien, 20 June 2009 - 04:13 PM.

[Person]

"Random fairy put into a bottle"?
"Fairy that was originally Navi but lost her identity when they changed Link to his TP self and she got decolored yet stayed in the game because taking her out would have meant having to create a new taunt which was too much work"? (Wow, that is one heck of a long name...)

She's quite obviously colored blue in the SSE cutscenes. Methinks she's supposed to be Navi. Nintendo usually refers to Link as a single character outside of actual Zelda games, anyway.

[spunky-monkey]

Okay, I somehow got myself into a debate with an idiot on GameFAQs

They're a lost cause. Nuff said.

There are two basic questions here:
1.What disqualifies the manga from canon status?
2.Do games like SSBB show updated creator intent for characters, even if they are not canon themselves?

1. Because, although endorsed by Nintendo the Akira Himekawa manga tells its own story, and does not follow the storyline of the games. The manga is simply an adaptation, therefore non-canonical.
2. SSBB is a fighting spin-off title. Mainstream franchised characters that feature in such cameos cannot possibly relate to their respective games' storyline - they're money-making cameos for Pete's sake.

[Duke Serkol]

She's quite obviously colored blue in the SSE cutscenes.

Is she? I don't recall. Of course I haven't seen the cutscenes as much as the taunt. I'll have to check it out.

Nintendo usually refers to Link as a single character outside of actual Zelda games, anyway.

Except when they don't, like in the Codecs you brought up earlier on?

But in all fairness, Toon Link has a LoZ Link skin, so who knows.

[Person]

She's quite obviously colored blue in the SSE cutscenes.

Is she? I don't recall. Of course I haven't seen the cutscenes as much as the taunt. I'll have to check it out.

Nintendo usually refers to Link as a single character outside of actual Zelda games, anyway.

Except when they don't, like in the Codecs you brought up earlier on?

But in all fairness, Toon Link has a LoZ Link skin, so who knows.

Yeah. Who knows indeed. I guess this is just a dumb argument since neither SSBB nor the manga are canon. Though if we had to rank canon, I'd say it would go:
1.Main series
2.Spin-offs (SSBB, FPTRR)
3.Non-video game material (manga, TV show).

[SOAP]

Well my thing is that it's pretty hard to establish canon when fans disregard Nintendo's stance and even the creators themselves. When canon is taken into the fans' hands because obviously us biased fans know better than the people who actually work hard to make the games... , you're bound to have different fan communities with their own idea of what's considered canon and what's not. If you're on forum where you can at least agree on the same canon, then why worry about what people on a totally different forum thinks? If someone on gamefags wants Sheik to be a boy to suit whatever bizarre fetishes they may or may not have so be it. Personally I don't take the mangas OR Smash Brothers as canon and I think Sheik was intended to be a guy because he's refered to as such. Whether it was a completely transformation or Zelda just wrapped her chest really tight is another debate but as a character it's obviously meant to be at least be perceived as a male. That's why it was supposed to be shocking that Zelda was Sheik because Sheik was a some mystery guy that went around Hyrule, crossing paths with Link at times. Besides it kind of gives a feeling of Ho Yay for yaoi fangirls, even though he turns out to be Zelda afterall. I could give a flying blue fuck if he's a chick in the Smash Brothers games. He's a he and taht's the end of it.

[CID Farwin]

I specifically remember reading somewhere the explanations for Navi and Shiek in Brawl was that the characters are representative of their respective series, not an individual game.

What's canon? whatever you want it to be. There's nothing from Nintendo except the fabled "Word ocument" that says what's canon and what's not.

[Sparx401]

The fairy in Link's taunt seems more like the fairy pointer on the Wii version of TP than Navi. Seriously, Navi is a real lighter blue color, almost white.

[MikePetersSucks]

Weren't they written by the same guy?
Although it was interesting to think about the ramifications of those two. If we go and accept them as canon, then apparently Shadow Link blogs about an imaginary girlfriend and looks just like Link with black hair.

Yea, and they contradict each other, so not even the author thinks they're in the same universe, apparently. At the end of the Minish Cap manga, Vaati's soul is purified and he returns to being an innocent Minish before he steals any of Zelda's power, returning to the Minish Realm and promising never to be bad again. Then we have the FSA manga, where Vaati is still an evil demon lord. And Blue Link "betrays" the group, and Shadow Link merges with the four Links at the end.

[Person]

Weren't they written by the same guy?
Although it was interesting to think about the ramifications of those two. If we go and accept them as canon, then apparently Shadow Link blogs about an imaginary girlfriend and looks just like Link with black hair.

Yea, and they contradict each other, so not even the author thinks they're in the same universe, apparently. At the end of the Minish Cap manga, Vaati's soul is purified and he returns to being an innocent Minish before he steals any of Zelda's power, returning to the Minish Realm and promising never to be bad again. Then we have the FSA manga, where Vaati is still an evil demon lord. And Blue Link "betrays" the group, and Shadow Link merges with the four Links at the end.

So in the TMC manga, Vaati is a Smurfs villain?

[Showsni]

I don't remember Gargamel promising to never be bad again...

Yeah. Who knows indeed. I guess this is just a dumb argument since neither SSBB nor the manga are canon. Though if we had to rank canon, I'd say it would go:
1.Main series
2.Spin-offs (SSBB, FPTRR)
3.Non-video game material (manga, TV show).

SSB isn't a spin off, it's a different series with Link as a character.

[Person]

I don't remember Gargamel promising to never be bad again...

Yeah. Who knows indeed. I guess this is just a dumb argument since neither SSBB nor the manga are canon. Though if we had to rank canon, I'd say it would go:
1.Main series
2.Spin-offs (SSBB, FPTRR)
3.Non-video game material (manga, TV show).

SSB isn't a spin off, it's a different series with Link as a character.

It's not a spin-off in the technical sense, but it's a non-canon video game developed and published by Nintendo. There mere fact that it is a video game gives it more pull than a manga or TV show which was made without Nintendo's involvement at all.

[Showsni]

Well, when it comes to stuff like trophy descriptions I'd give it a higher level of canonicity than secondary material (provided they've been accurately translated, I guess), but as an event in itself a lower level (as it's pretty clear Link is never meant to have canonically entered a tournament for Nintendo characters).

[SOAP]

It could be worse. He could be using his own fanfiction as canon. Some people actually do that. :/

[CID Farwin]

It could be worse. He could be using his own fanfiction as canon. Some people actually do that. :/

And some people are Virtually Insane[/pun]

Edited by CID Farwin, 22 June 2009 - 05:55 PM.

[Person]

It could be worse. He could be using his own fanfiction as canon. Some people actually do that. :/

I've got to hear this one. What was he arguing and what was the fanfiction he was trying to use?
Or was it Mike Peters?

[MikePetersSucks]

Mike Peters was one of them, but despite the wrap I gave him he wasn't the worst, merely the loudest.

"OOT was the only game that ever happened."

[marr5]

I have read most if not all the mangas and comics, How I look at it is that both are Half cannon. what I mean by that is in video games it is hard to get emotion and overal feel or depth across, in mangas/comics its much easer (expesially since Link talks in the manga/comic). you have to just mesh the two together, but thats just my opinion.

[Fin]

Well, that isn't canon. That's just having a preference for one story over the other. The games' universe is still officially separate from the comics'.

[marr5]

didnt Nintendo pay the Akira Himekawa team to make some of the mangas?