136 replies to this topic

[Goose]

This is question the non theists on the board.



I’m curious as to what it was that caused you to come to your current stance, was it solely that the belief in a deity repulsed you, or the actions of the so called deity, or just that it doesn’t make sense, or was it the behaviour of the people who believed in the deity in question that repulsed you.



What made you come to your current stance?

[wisp]

All of the above, really. I'm honestly pretty hesitant to post in detail about it here, though, since I have a feeling that I can name at least one person who will come in and insist that my opinion is invalid while simultaneously failing to produce any real proof of this assertion. NGL, this is really making me hesitant to post much in this forum at all as it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

So, the short story for now. The idea of believing in a deity with insufficient evidence for it did not appeal to me as I think that faith, while without proof, should never be without reason. I had no solid reasons for such belief due to the lack of evidence. There are many places in the Bible where the actions of God were so unfair that it repulsed me that such a being could be considered "just" and "benevolent." The events that occurred in the Bible were often so mythical and unrealistic that I can't see how anyone could believe that they literally happened (especially considering that these sorts of fantastical things don't happen any longer), and I also find the actions of a great many Christians to be totally disgusting and undesirable and I have no inclination to associate with those people.

So there. All points are covered, however briefly. I hope I don't end up regretting that I posted this.

[SOAP]

Theism itself? Absolutely nothing. I just don't agree with it. I don't go around being disgusted with everything I disagree with. The only thing that disgusts me is the beliefs that often get associated with theism, such as the belief that all morals must come from a deity and those who don't believe in that deity somehow lack morals or need saving. I find that science gives a better, more inclusive explanation for where our morals comes from. We're social creatures who build communities based on mutual trust and codependency. A few individuals here and there might be able to live entirely by themselves in the mountains, away from society but most of us would die off without the help of others so we gather together. Things like killing, stealing, lying, rape, ect get in the way of the trust needed to form a community so we don't those things. Giving to others, assisting others and being respectful help build trust so these things are encouraged. It also explains where religion comes from as one of the many things humans establish when they form "tribes" based on a simmilar interest or philosophy. Those who don't share that common philosophy are usually not trusted and are branded as "evil" even if they're otherwise moral people. I can be moral all I want a Christian can concede that I'm a good enough person but they would never trust me as much as they'd trust their Christian brothers and sisters. I'm not in their tribe so I'm nobody unless I convert. Because I repeatedly refuse to, they think something is wrong with me when there's not. I just don't agree that there's a real living God outside of God being a man-made meme created to instill morality.

Edited by SOAP, 19 March 2009 - 02:07 AM.

[Fin]

Well, anything I post now has been rendered redundant by SOAP, so... what he said.

[wisp]

I didn't take "repulsed" to mean "disgusted," just "repelled." I'm not disgusted by theistic beliefs, I just find a lot of things about them to be generally repellent to me.

[Green Goblin]

Everything Wisp said pretty much covers it. There's no proof that the stories of the Bible were true. The God of the Bible is VERY flawed and as far as I'm concerned looks like a vicious dictator, whereas Satan just comes off as a bit arrogant, but a decent guy. Then there are all the bullshit atrocities that are taken up "in his name". Anyone can use religion to justify anything.

My main reason for being an Atheist though is just because there's no proof of it ever happening.

[MikePetersSucks]

Aside from the paradoxes and logical flaws involved, most religions, when looked at objectively without the rose colored glasses, have terrible moral/ethical systems, and while they can sound nice on paper, the biggest effect they had is just letting assholes justify their behavior because they're forgiven, instead of thinking they have to be held responsible for their actions.

[Fizzbit]

First of all, I was raised atheist, or rather, without religion. When I got to be about 8 or 9, I finally asked my parents "Why don't we go to church like all my friends do?"

It was at that time that they decided that if I wanted to go to church, I could. They told me that they were atheists and didn't believe in God, and that they had raised me without God in my life so that I could make the decision to believe or not to believe on my own. All they asked was that if I chose to believe, that they keep religious talk out of the house.

So I tried the religious scene for about a month or so. Went to church with friends, asked around... and looking back on what I discovered disgusts me to this day.

I found people so utterly dependant on religion that they could not possibly function without it. And later I looked into the scientific aspects of it and realized yeah, there's no proof or evidence of God's existence.

So I decided that I would be an atheist just like my parents.

[Goose]

I found people so utterly dependant on religion that they could not possibly function without it. And later I looked into the scientific aspects of it and realized yeah, there's no proof or evidence of God's existence.

Sorry to annoy you about this, but I was wondering if you could explain what you meant by the fact that they were so dependant on religion the they couldn't live without it. I'm not attacking the statement at all, I'm just wondering if you could explain how they behaved, if that makes sense.

[Fizzbit]

These people lived and breathed church. Said prayers at every meal and before going to bed, told everyone they'd pray for them in hard times, and counting on God to help them out in times of need. As a child, it surprised and appalled me to see that these people had absolutely no independent thoughts of their own. They lived for God through God with God. And I wanted no part in that kind of helplessness.

[Goose]

Were they the type of people who, if they were drowning, and they saw a life jacket float along, would refuse to put it on because God would save them?

[Green Goblin]

Were they the type of people who, if they were drowning, and they saw a life jacket float along, would refuse to put it on because God would save them?

I doubt you'd find ANYONE that faithful. There are some that refuse some of the advantages of modern medicine, but in a life-or-death situation like that, the mind only focuses on one thing: Self-preservation.

[Khallos]

I generally don't like the arrogance that religions have over other religions. The idea theists often have that other religions are idolistic nonsence and that their religion is the the one true form. Either that or other religions are looked at as quiant and are treated patronisingly. If you were raised on a fairytale or suddenly met the fairyqueen in the garden does not give your belief in the fairies any more strength than the those idiots next door who know pixies exist.

Theism hardly repulses me, the idea of subserviance that comes along with many theistic religions doesn't fit well with me. The idea that we should accept and lay down all for an imaginary being, yet at the same time not question its authority even if its actions are wrong. Perhaps I'm living under a delusion of liberty but dammit if I won't try and live my own life as much as I can. I am also opposed to the 'fascist' God of Christianity, the great dictator. He asks for tithes and donations to help spread his earthly dominance, asks that we devote 1 in 7 days of lives to him. We hang his little gammadion* around our necks, and put a portait of our wonderful leader on our mantlepiece. He asks for love, and those who don't love him are taken away to a 'camp' of eternal suffering.

At risk of invoking Godwin's law, the similarities between him and the Nazi regime, or should I say any totalitarian state are many. Noncompliants are killed, top advisors exiled, society is atomised by the fear of those who might not believe in the true course. Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt suffer not the political enemy to live? As far as I know this isn't unique to Christianity, or if it is I'm left with either: 1. all other religions are less popular because they're even more brutal. 2. they aren't, with an exception of a few, the most brutal is actually the most numerous. I wouldn't worry though, whatever happens I'm sure your thoughtcrimes will find you out.

Perhaps a diety gave us freedom, but we are bound as surely as sweat shop slaves to our poverty and a life of fear of damnation to obeying such a wonderous being.

*iotadion would be perhaps a better word, but that'd be more confusing. It's also perhaps a more 'Catholic' take on Christianity.

[Nevermind]

It's funny looking at all these responses and portrayals of Christianity and noting how much of a bad impression the mainstream has had on people. Being a firm believer of 'each to their own', I'm definitely not about to make any suggestions but it would seem you guys all got the bad apples. Though in this case the reverse applies - one good apple does not redeem the bunch.

I adhere to theism myself, so I have no legitimate response to this thread, but I have to say I am 'repulsed' by the majority of theists out there for most of the same reasons as the rest of you. Especially the inability to utilise one's own individual thoughts. And the condemnation of everyone else, that's one of the biggest issues.

[Asmodeus]

This factor isn't much of something for 'disgust', just something I find a mite bit annoying...

What I dislike personally about theistic beliefs is this: When I was a small girl and going to Sunday School, I was always told about how much God loves me, and how often he watches over me, yet when people found out I was a lesbian, suddenly I'm disgusting and going to Hell. Whatever happened to the "God loves me for me" schtick? Why did this rule suddenly change?

It just seems so odd to me.

[Alastair]

What I dislike personally about theistic beliefs is this: When I was a small girl and going to Sunday School, I was always told about how much God loves me, and how often he watches over me, yet when people found out I was a lesbian, suddenly I'm disgusting and going to Hell. Whatever happened to the "God loves me for me" schtick? Why did this rule suddenly change?

[SOAP]

Were they the type of people who, if they were drowning, and they saw a life jacket float along, would refuse to put it on because God would save them?

It depends on your perspective. Some people cannot reconcile the idea of a benevolent God with the concept of Hell or Original Sin. Even if people somehow "allow" themselves to go to Hell by not believing in God, it doesn't make sense to punish people who, for the most part try to be good people, but are disallowed access all because they lived in a world that lacks evidence of his existence and chose not to believe in him based on that. Or they may have believed to some degree but feel betrayed by God and may have legitimate reasons to feel that way, regardless if God is at fault or not (and it's amazing how an all-controlling God manages to escape blame for everything). If it's impossible for them to go into Heaven why can't he simply let death be all that is or send them to some halfway area that's not Heaven but isn't eternal punishment either? Why does there NEED to be a hell when being human is a struggle enough in itself?

With that perspective, it would be like God being the one who kicked you off the boat and while you're kicking and splashing around trying to keep afloat God says to you, "I'll save you. But you have to love me forever and only me." and you reply "Hell no! You just kicked me off the boat you bastard!" And God says sternly "Then you die" and drives the boat away. Another problem I have with your anaolgy is what you're implying people are drowning in or if they're even drowning in the first place. Most people are just fine without God and do not struggle with morality without God, at laest not to extent that they can't function as a normal productive human being.

Even if people are sent off to hell on their own doing, it seems trite for God to cast people away to eternal punishment for not loving him over any the countless other gods who are just as likely to exist as he does as the evidence for their existence is equal to his: none. Is your God the right one, simply because that's the God most Americans (and austrailians) are exposed to? Why not the God/Goddess of the Wicca? Or Zues? Or Allah? Or Ordin? Or Brahma? Or the concept of God the pantheists?

[Raien]

I think the problem is Hell. Despite being raised in an environment where school taught a very liberal and loving Christianity (no stories of hatred or damnation whatsoever), the fact that knowing you could be damned to an eternity of suffering is just a disgusting thought. Looking at the discussions on this board and others, I think a lot of complaints relate to the concept of damnation. It also explains why people find the phrase "Go to Hell" incredibly offensive.

[Green Goblin]

Honestly, were I shown that God were actually real, I'd like to hear him speak up for the very atrocities that he himself has brought upon the Earth. About the flaws in existence. And if he had no reasonable explanation or would refuse to answer, I'd gladly walk into the gates of hell with my head held high.

[Nevermind]

Trouble with that though, is by pointing blame, it kind of negates the way universal rules and the nature of the universe that humankind has worked so hard to discover. By atrocities, I guess you mean natural disasters, which are the results of mass chains of events.
Most likely answer, in my mind: "Hey I just put it there. You guys make of it what you will."

[Green Goblin]

Trouble with that though, is by pointing blame, it kind of negates the way universal rules and the nature of the universe that humankind has worked so hard to discover. By atrocities, I guess you mean natural disasters, which are the results of mass chains of events.
Most likely answer, in my mind: "Hey I just put it there. You guys make of it what you will."

More the smiting of society that didn't directly comply to the idea of him, rather than making his presence truly known so as to remove all doubt. And the flood. And the tenth plague after hardening the Pharaoh's heart (basically, making him give God a reason to be a dick). Or choosing a side in a war by claiming that he has a "chosen people", rather than acknowledging the fact that ALL of us are suppose to be his children and simply make his presence known. Then there's the whole thing about valuing blind faith over logic and reasoning, which goes completely against that little thing he gave us called a brain. And then why he made the act of sacrificing an innocent as a penalty for sin in the first place.

There's a lot more question I'd have for him than the simple "why do bad things happen to good people?" shtick.

[Nevermind]

Hah, too true. So would I. One question that would stand out for me is "Was it worth it?".

[Psytronic]

A simple answer, really:

The followers do not discourage me from belief, they discourage me from taking company among the followers.

What drives me away from gods and goddesses and so on is the mindless simplicity involved in those beliefs. The beliefs offer no explanation for their own truth or reality.

I do not believe in a "God" as much as I see that those things in existence are nothing in comparison to overall possibility. Just because something exists in one fashion does not mean another is impossible.

Edited by Psytronic, 24 March 2009 - 09:49 AM.

[Sir Deimos]

as a young child forced into catholicism i hated the hypocrisy of what was mainstream religion. especially the whole 'god loves you' philosophy. if god exists and loves me so much he wouldnt let me go to hell.

so i did the rebellious thing and now practice (very lazily lol) a religion that isnt mainstream.

i mean, no matter what i do, i'm good right? so long as i dont truely deserve it

Edited by Synile, 24 March 2009 - 10:58 AM.

[SOAP]

as a young child forced into catholicism i hated the hypocrisy of what was mainstream religion. especially the whole 'god loves you' philosophy. if god exists and loves me so much he wouldnt let me go to hell.

so i did the rebellious thing and now practice (very lazily lol) a religion that isnt mainstream.

i mean, no matter what i do, i'm good right? so long as i dont truely deserve it

Okay I'm curious. What religion is that? I once half-heartedly tried out a pagan religion as form of rebellion against my local baptist Church. I just simply prayed to the Goddesses Athena and Aphrodite, mostly because I was going through a sexually frustrated phase where I hated men and refused to bellieve God could be a "he." That lasted about three months of my high school senior year.

I also recently dabbled in Gnosticm but then that was over as soon as my close Christian friend found out about it and deserted me for it, which in retrospect was kinda... odd. He was okay with me being gay. Could accept that I found parts of the Bible hard to swallow. Suspected I could be a closeted atheist (I'm not as open about that in real as I am here). But still managed to stay close to me. But the minute I mentioned the word Gnosticm, he flipped out and said "You don't posses the Holy Spirit!" and angrily stormed out the room and out of my life soon after.

Edited by SOAP, 26 March 2009 - 03:11 PM.

[Psytronic]

Strange story, SOAP. I doubt you really have Gnosticism to blame for that, considering the reaction.

[Hana-Nezumi]

One reason I'm an atheist is because I don't have any reason to believe in a deity. I have values and I try to be a good person because I want to, not to appease some higher power, but to live and be happy while letting others do the same. Another reason is that religion (particularly Christianity) just doesn't make sense to me. My parents are Christians, but they didn't raise me to be very religious. They only taught me the basics, and we hardly ever went to church because my parents couldn't find a church they were comfortable with. To me the stories my parents told me about Moses and Jesus weren't any more real than the ones about Cinderella and Snow White, and hardly as interesting. As I grew older and learned more things about Christianity that my parents had failed to mention, the entire belief system just seemed more and more ridiculous and nonsensical to me, and eventually I decided that I couldn't accept it any longer. I realized that I didn't *need* to accept it.

But I'm not completely "repulsed" by theism. I think it's a good thing. If theism is what it takes to get people to behave correctly, then so be it.

[SOAP]

Strange story, SOAP. I doubt you really have Gnosticism to blame for that, considering the reaction.

I need to learn to control my verbal vomit before I divulge too much of my personal life... TMI, Soap, Tee Em Eye!

He had some understanding of what Gnosticm is. Well enough to know that it has fundamental differences with mainstream Christianity, enough to make it seem outright Satanic on the surface if you don't look at the deeper meanings. I tried explaining it but he wasn't having it. I decided then it wasn't a belief worth having it only alienated me from people I cared about. Strange though that he accepted me as a homosexual but not as guy dabbling in esoteric mysticism.

Edited by SOAP, 27 March 2009 - 12:52 PM.

[Reflectionist]

Lack of sincerity. Not so much the hypocrisy thing, but the lack of sincerity. The skewed view of morality. There's a reason behind Christian morality, and it's not a very moral reason at all.

Obviously, if you're loving someone to please God, or as the Bible commands, what you're really loving is the idea of pleasing God, and you're not really loving people at all. That's only part of the reason, the rest is this:

Said the self-righteous preacher, "What, in your judgment, is the greatest sin in the world?"

"That of the person who sees other human beings as sinners," said the Master.

If you're a Christian, you have to love because God told you to. Period. And the reason God tells you to love others is because you have to view them as sinners. The whole entire rhetoric is filled with "you're better than everyone else, so instead of holding it above their heads, show love." Which isn't love. It's humility. Thinking of Human Beings as sinners is always going to be there in your mind, because that's what Christianity teaches.

The love cannot possibly be sincere.
Some people are just more practiced at not being assholes than others.
But you're all a cozened black inside.

[Goose]

If you're a Christian, you have to love because God told you to. Period. And the reason God tells you to love others is because you have to view them as sinners. The whole entire rhetoric is filled with "you're better than everyone else, so instead of holding it above their heads, show love." Which isn't love. It's humility. Thinking of Human Beings as sinners is always going to be there in your mind, because that's what Christianity teaches.

The love cannot possibly be sincere.
Some people are just more practiced at not being assholes than others.
But you're all a cozened black inside.

Now thats a blanket statement. A huge one. You could cover the entire planet with that statement and we could all have a picnic together.

Sure, Christianity teaches that we fall short, and are sinners. But that doesn't give Christians the excuse to be self righteous arsewanks, some people do that all themselves. It teaches that everybody is a sinner, even the Christian. We ALL fall short. The rhetoric is not "You're better than others, show pity on them." The rhetoric is more like "We all suck, but God loves us anyway."

But I agree with you in the sense that if the picture you painted is what Christians base themselves around, then yes, that is false humility, insincere, and not genuine love.