18 replies to this topic

[Raien]

I just found out about a Japanese god of evil, Amatsu-Mikaboshi, on wikipedia, and I noticed some interesting similarities with terminology used in Zelda.

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The Mikaboshi originated as an antithesis to the positive forces of life in Shinto, thus its lack of a singular form. It is a force of absolute domination that feeds off of human emotions that, if left unchecked, result in social, emotional, or physical destruction. For instance, a desire for success can lead to greed and lust for power, which is the result of the influence of the Mikaboshi's residue. Love for another can lead to obsession or jealousy, also result of these dark influences. In this respect the Mikaboshi could be thought of as being a Japanese "Satan figure." This is supported by its title as "August Star of Heaven" which is similar to the term "Morningstar" which is used another name for Lucifer in Christianity.

In later centuries, certain creatures that are by nature dark or demonic were said to be connected to the Mikaboshi in a sort of slave relationship to its power. Souls that died with strong attachments and came back to hurt the living were said to have become physical agents to the Mikaboshi's force in a more direct way than simple greed or lust when living, and such creatures as oni (goblins), Ama-no-Jaku, and Demons were also results of certain natural elements falling prey to passions fed by the Mikaboshi's temptations. The ultimate goal, it is said, was to absoultely destroy everything by dissolving it back into chaos, whereby the static, controlling power of the Mikaboshi could return.

How much do you think this has influenced the Zelda mythology (in particular Ganondorf and Darkness)? I'm not suggesting that a god of evil does exist in Zelda, but Darkness as a metaphysical entity does seem to correspond quite well with this Mikaboshi. Ganondorf's greed and lust for power is certainly an interesting term in relation to this, as well as the identity of Demons as natural elements falling prey to Darkness. And then of course there's the goal of creating chaos so that the Darkness can control it.

Could the Chaos that existed before the goddesses created Hyrule be, in essence, Mikaboshi?

Edited by Raien, 05 February 2009 - 04:51 PM.

[canas is back]

I don't know, it could be possible, but if I accept this, any hopes of my story making sense would go out the window.

[MikePetersSucks]

Well, there's two senses of chaos, here. There's the chaos created by the villains, which is what we typically imagine, and then there's mythological chaos, the state of things before existence that contains infinite possibility. Basically the exact opposite of a void: Total fullness.

I suppose Darkness could correlate to Mikaboshi, though it never really crossed my mind and I'm not sure I entirely like it. Granted, there's no real reason why it couldn't be. The existence of the Twilight Realm, though, makes me think that Darkness is part of the Goddesses' natural order, and that they themselves are a sort've Taoist, perfect equilibrium of light and darkness. Though on the other hand, I can also very easily see themas beings of light who created the universe by literally pushing Chaos back, and using the Triforce as a sort of keystone to support their order.

In the latter interpretation, perhaps Darkness, created by the greed of men for the Triforce (and creating an obvious metaphor for a certain forbidden fruit), was planted by Mikaboshi letting out the secret of the Triforce by taking advantage of Hylian ears. Pure fanfiction, but also pure awesome. Following that idea, it could be hypothesized that the loss of Hylian blood could be a deliberate effect of the goddesses trying to cut off Mikaboshi's abuse and corruption. If Mikaboshi exists, and is responsible for Darkness, this would also explain beings like Bellum, and might be the source of the monsters Twinrova summon in Oracles (Mikaboshi is not just a deity, but a plane of existence).

[Raien]

MikePetersSucks, on Feb 6 2009, 06:23 PM, said:

The existence of the Twilight Realm, though, makes me think that Darkness is part of the Goddesses' natural order, and that they themselves are a sort've Taoist, perfect equilibrium of light and darkness.

I think this idea is wrong; "Shadow" (in the context of the Twilight Realm) is not Darkness. The essence of the Shadow Realm is the Sols, which repels Darkness in the Twilight Realm like Light does in the Light World. When the Sols were stolen, the Twilight Realm was corrupted by Darkness just like the Light World has been.

Consequently, I've never found a reason to connect Darkness to the goddesses; I've always seen it as an antithesis to their power, like Satan is to God. So for me, it looks like Darkness is following the rules of Mikaboshi, which would pretty much explain everything about Darkness in the Zelda series that I can think of.

PS: Are there any more details about Mikaboshi that you can add? I've been struggling to find anything of importance beyond the wikipedia article.

Edited by Raien, 06 February 2009 - 03:04 PM.

[Evilsbane]

Raien, on Feb 6 2009, 06:50 PM, said:

PS: Are there any more details about Mikaboshi that you can add? I've been struggling to find anything of importance beyond the wikipedia article.

I found this:

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He is the Guardian of the Realm of Hell, governing over the souls of the dead, fiery, Sinful spirits called shitidama, wandering spirits forced to spend eternity wandering Soku-no-Kumi. Those spirits who were vile and ultimately sinful, however, became soulless, violent creatures who embody that soul's ultimate Sin, Lost Souls. These creatures have been known to break free of the Realm of Hell and surface, wreaking havoc on Earth. But these Lost Souls are not Amatsu Mikaboshi's problem, and often he finds amusement in their escape from his Realm.

[Raien]

Evilsbane, on Feb 7 2009, 02:16 AM, said:

Raien, on Feb 6 2009, 06:50 PM, said:

PS: Are there any more details about Mikaboshi that you can add? I've been struggling to find anything of importance beyond the wikipedia article.

I found this:

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He is the Guardian of the Realm of Hell, governing over the souls of the dead, fiery, Sinful spirits called shitidama, wandering spirits forced to spend eternity wandering Soku-no-Kumi. Those spirits who were vile and ultimately sinful, however, became soulless, violent creatures who embody that soul's ultimate Sin, Lost Souls. These creatures have been known to break free of the Realm of Hell and surface, wreaking havoc on Earth. But these Lost Souls are not Amatsu Mikaboshi's problem, and often he finds amusement in their escape from his Realm.

A friend of mine also pointed that out to me. I don't know what to make of it; my friend says that it is probably from a different "creation book" relating to the character.

Edited by Raien, 06 February 2009 - 09:24 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

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I think this idea is wrong; "Shadow" (in the context of the Twilight Realm) is not Darkness. The essence of the Shadow Realm is the Sols, which repels Darkness in the Twilight Realm like Light does in the Light World. When the Sols were stolen, the Twilight Realm was corrupted by Darkness just like the Light World has been.

Twilight/Shadow, imo, is a sort of equilibrium between the two. I didn't equate Shadow and Darkness as one.

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Consequently, I've never found a reason to connect Darkness to the goddesses; I've always seen it as an antithesis to their power, like Satan is to God. So for me, it looks like Darkness is following the rules of Mikaboshi, which would pretty much explain everything about Darkness in the Zelda series that I can think of.

I say such because apparently evil people can use the Triforce perfect fine, and you would think things would be a LOT restricter if the Goddesses were beings of pure Light. Again, just a personal preference, though Goddesses=Light, with Darkness being the work of Mikaboshi is admittedly more likely, knowing Nintendo.

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He is the Guardian of the Realm of Hell, governing over the souls of the dead, fiery, Sinful spirits called shitidama, wandering spirits forced to spend eternity wandering Soku-no-Kumi. Those spirits who were vile and ultimately sinful, however, became soulless, violent creatures who embody that soul's ultimate Sin, Lost Souls. These creatures have been known to break free of the Realm of Hell and surface, wreaking havoc on Earth. But these Lost Souls are not Amatsu Mikaboshi's problem, and often he finds amusement in their escape from his Realm.

This is only believed in by a relatively small amount of people, and has no real basis in Shinto mythology (infact contradicting a lot of other myths), so I think we can discredit this one from plausibility, since it's not even consistent with his character. There's no Hell in Shinto, for one thing, and the afterlife is ruled by Izanami, and sometimes Yama in mythos in which she delegated the responsibility.

[Raien]

MikePetersSucks, on Feb 7 2009, 04:48 PM, said:

Twilight/Shadow, imo, is a sort of equilibrium between the two. I didn't equate Shadow and Darkness as one.

There can't be an equilibrium between Light and Darkness; the two oppose each other. Light banishes Darkness and Darkness banishes Light. There has never been an indication of a balance or equality between them in the Zelda series (NOA inventions in Twilight Princess excepted).

Twilight is just reflected Light; that is all that distinguishes it from normal light. Because Twilight is weaker, the Twilight Realm is perceived to be substandard compared to the Light World (living in a half-existence, if you will). But the connotations with benevolence are identical; hence the combining of the Master Sword's Light with the Sols' Twilight.

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I say such because apparently evil people can use the Triforce perfect fine, and you would think things would be a LOT restricter if the Goddesses were beings of pure Light. Again, just a personal preference, though Goddesses=Light, with Darkness being the work of Mikaboshi is admittedly more likely, knowing Nintendo.

I have an idea. You've heard this before a long time back, but we dropped it due to lack of evidence. Tell me whether you think this is bullshit or not within the context of Mikaboshi's existence.

What if Light and Darkness are not embodied by the Goddesses and Mikaboshi, but merely used to achieve their goals? The Goddesses' goal would be to maintain Order and Mikaboshi's goal would be to bring about Chaos. Thus, the Triforce would not necessarily relate to good or evil, since the Goddesses embody Order, not Light.

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This is only believed in by a relatively small amount of people, and has no real basis in Shinto mythology (infact contradicting a lot of other myths), so I think we can discredit this one from plausibility, since it's not even consistent with his character. There's no Hell in Shinto, for one thing, and the afterlife is ruled by Izanami, and sometimes Yama in mythos in which she delegated the responsibility.

Good to hear. Thanks for this piece of info.

Edited by Raien, 07 February 2009 - 08:13 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

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There can't be an equilibrium between Light and Darkness; the two oppose each other. Light banishes Darkness and Darkness banishes Light. There has never been an indication of a balance or equality between them in the Zelda series (NOA inventions in Twilight Princess excepted).

The implications are there regardless of NOA. Infact, the Japanese is what gave me the idea. Things that oppose require an equilibrium even moreso, it's a mythological constant.

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Twilight is just reflected Light; that is all that distinguishes it from normal light. Because Twilight is weaker, the Twilight Realm is perceived to be substandard compared to the Light World (living in a half-existence, if you will). But the connotations with benevolence are identical; hence the combining of the Master Sword's Light with the Sols' Twilight.

Baseless supposition on your part. Shadow/Twilight is the other side of Light's coin, and the same comparison is made to Darkness by Ganondorf.

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I have an idea. You've heard this before a long time back, but we dropped it due to lack of evidence. Tell me whether you think this is bullshit or not within the context of Mikaboshi's existence.

What if Light and Darkness are not embodied by the Goddesses and Mikaboshi, but merely used to achieve their goals? The Goddesses' goal would be to maintain Order and Mikaboshi's goal would be to bring about Chaos. Thus, the Triforce would not necessarily relate to good or evil, since the Goddesses embody Order, not Light.

I suppose this could work on paper, but I think I remember that under scrutiny, this starts falling apart.

[Raien]

MikePetersSucks, on Feb 8 2009, 07:57 AM, said:

The implications are there regardless of NOA. Infact, the Japanese is what gave me the idea. Things that oppose require an equilibrium even moreso, it's a mythological constant.

Do you have any examples of oppositions with equilibrium?

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Baseless supposition on your part. Shadow/Twilight is the other side of Light's coin, and the same comparison is made to Darkness by Ganondorf.

Normally the coin analogy represents a connection of two opposites, but the Twilight Realm is not considered an opposite to the Light World. Certainly Midna does not consider it an opposite, and she understands it much better than the Hyrulians do. The combination of Light and Twilight in the Master Sword against Darkness is certainly representative of a union, not an opposition.

The coin analogy thus has to be different, and it makes sense then for it to be a more literal analogy. Hold up one side of a coin to the light, and the bottom side is illuminated by twilight.

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I suppose this could work on paper, but I think I remember that under scrutiny, this starts falling apart.

I think the original problem was connecting Light to Order and Darkness to Chaos. They aren't at all the same, as you have more recently pointed out, because with too much Order comes its own decline. I think what the goddesses really want is prosperity for Hyrule, which I personally think fits nicely with Link inspiring the Hyrulians with his deeds in Twilight Princess. They favour Order for the most part because Mikaboshi only desires Chaos.

[MikePetersSucks]

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Do you have any examples of oppositions with equilibrium?

Not on hand. I'm much too Alzheimerish to acquire, and look through, game scripts.

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Normally the coin analogy represents a connection of two opposites, but the Twilight Realm is not considered an opposite to the Light World.

Not every subject of a coin analogy is opposing each other. For example, Metatron and Samael, one of, if not the oldest, use of the metaphor, the two angels are both of God and indeed often work in tandem, but in Kabbalistic mythos are a dual existence. One Angel with two halves.

Though while I'm thinking of it, Zant seems to imply that forcibly shoving Light and Twilight together creates Darkness, so perhaps Light and Shadow are the natural "opposites" and Darkness is a true, consuming force that doesn't belong, thanks to Mikaboshi who is using it to return everything to a state of chaos and null.

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I think the original problem was connecting Light to Order and Darkness to Chaos. They aren't at all the same, as you have more recently pointed out, because with too much Order comes its own decline. I think what the goddesses really want is prosperity for Hyrule, which I personally think fits nicely with Link inspiring the Hyrulians with his deeds in Twilight Princess. They favour Order for the most part because Mikaboshi only desires Chaos.

I can roll with that. How about, to take a page from D&D, the Law/Chaos and Light/Darkness axioms aren't good or evil in of themselves and are mere tools, and the Goddesses and Mikaboshi are Good and Evil respectively. After all, wouldn't Ganondorf's successful control be a new Order?

[Raien]

MikePetersSucks, on Feb 9 2009, 02:02 AM, said:

Not on hand. I'm much too Alzheimerish to acquire, and look through, game scripts.

Ok, let's say for the sake of argument that there are examples in mythology of opposites with an equilibrium; I don't think Light and Darkness in Zelda is one of them. In any example where Light and Darkness have met, the least powerful one has been banished. While I'm sure that, in the human mind, good and evil is more ambiguous, the magic is not.

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Though while I'm thinking of it, Zant seems to imply that forcibly shoving Light and Twilight together creates Darkness, so perhaps Light and Shadow are the natural "opposites" and Darkness is a true, consuming force that doesn't belong, thanks to Mikaboshi who is using it to return everything to a state of chaos and null.

I really think he's referring to just the Light and Twilight Realms, because the essences of Light and Twilight together co-existed fine in the Master Sword.

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I can roll with that. How about, to take a page from D&D, the Law/Chaos and Light/Darkness axioms aren't good or evil in of themselves and are mere tools, and the Goddesses and Mikaboshi are Good and Evil respectively. After all, wouldn't Ganondorf's successful control be a new Order?

I'm not sure I agree with this. As I can determine, Order and Chaos are the Cosmic concepts; they exist beyond the realm of Hyrule, and are rarely touched upon in the series. Light/Darkness and Good/Evil exist within the realm of Hyrule, and in the hearts of the people, which puts them on a lower level.

Since the Goddesses and Mikaboshi are Cosmic entities, it makes more sense to me that they embody the cosmic concepts of Order/Chaos. And considering that the Goddesses ultimately created Order from the abstract Chaos that was Mikaboshi, I think the symbolism works more strongly that way.

[MikePetersSucks]

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Ok, let's say for the sake of argument that there are examples in mythology of opposites with an equilibrium; I don't think Light and Darkness in Zelda is one of them. In any example where Light and Darkness have met, the least powerful one has been banished. While I'm sure that, in the human mind, good and evil is more ambiguous, the magic is not.

Unless Twilight is that equilibrium. That's what we're arguing, after all. Whenever Light and Darkness have met, there was an unbalance between the two.

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I really think he's referring to just the Light and Twilight Realms, because the essences of Light and Twilight together co-existed fine in the Master Sword.

I always imagined that the Sols were Light; just enough to support the Twilight realm, but not enough to make it a plane of Light. The light from the Master Sword after their absorption is even golden.

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I'm not sure I agree with this. As I can determine, Order and Chaos are the Cosmic concepts; they exist beyond the realm of Hyrule, and are rarely touched upon in the series. Light/Darkness and Good/Evil exist within the realm of Hyrule, and in the hearts of the people, which puts them on a lower level.

But Order and Chaos also exist on a personal level, and apparently Light/Darkness and Good/Evil are cosmic as well.

[Raien]

MikePetersSucks, on Feb 9 2009, 08:12 PM, said:

I always imagined that the Sols were Light; just enough to support the Twilight realm, but not enough to make it a plane of Light. The light from the Master Sword after their absorption is even golden.

Twilight is a form of Light; that's why it's called Twilight. What differentiates it from normal Light is that it can illuminate a shadow, whereas normal Light will destroy the shadow (hence Light and Shadow cannot co-exist). But here's the thing; the Light World can exist in a state of Darkness or near-Darkness, just as the Twilight Realm can. But the Light World is not defined by such a state; only the Light that illuminates it. Likewise, the Twilight Realm is defined by the Twilight that illuminates it, regardless of how close it is to a state of Darkness. As such, I don't think Twilight represents an equilibrium.

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But Order and Chaos also exist on a personal level, and apparently Light/Darkness and Good/Evil are cosmic as well.

To a small extent, perhaps. I still think the alternate representations are much stronger, but I guess that's a matter of opinion now.

[MikePetersSucks]

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Twilight is a form of Light; that's why it's called Twilight.

Way to use Western semantics in a debate about Japanese cosmology. Hikari and Tasogare would be the words.

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What differentiates it from normal Light is that it can illuminate a shadow, whereas normal Light will destroy the shadow (hence Light and Shadow cannot co-exist). But here's the thing; the Light World can exist in a state of Darkness or near-Darkness, just as the Twilight Realm can. But the Light World is not defined by such a state; only the Light that illuminates it. Likewise, the Twilight Realm is defined by the Twilight that illuminates it, regardless of how close it is to a state of Darkness. As such, I don't think Twilight represents an equilibrium.

Whatever. A dimmer light/weak shadow is right in the middle of Light and Darkness. What can go between the two but the waning/waxing dusks and dawns?

[Raien]

MikePetersSucks, on Feb 10 2009, 06:54 AM, said:

Whatever. A dimmer light/weak shadow is right in the middle of Light and Darkness. What can go between the two but the waning/waxing dusks and dawns?

A weaker light does not validate the existence of Darkness as something divine. Like evil, it takes advantage of momentary weakness that inevitably appears (like the skeleton monsters that appear at night).

[MikePetersSucks]

Where there is Light, there is Darkness, and the physical representation of Twilight includes a pale, golden light and patches of uniformly distributed darkness in a harmonious manner. I find it telling that even in it's purest state, undisturbed by evil, the World of Light knows Darkness.

(doesn't help that at times, Twilight, Shadow, and Darkness are ALL treated as synonyms).

[Raien]

MikePetersSucks, on Feb 10 2009, 09:47 PM, said:

Where there is Light, there is Darkness, and the physical representation of Twilight includes a pale, golden light and patches of uniformly distributed darkness in a harmonious manner. I find it telling that even in it's purest state, undisturbed by evil, the World of Light knows Darkness.

(doesn't help that at times, Twilight, Shadow, and Darkness are ALL treated as synonyms).

Okay. Well, maybe this is something to come away from and think about. You're the first person to contradict my understanding of Twilight, so I'm a bit caught out. Anyway, thanks for helping me work out where to stand on Mikaboshi.

[MikePetersSucks]

No problem, dude. Love to carry this convo after we both think on it.