164 replies to this topic

[Green Goblin]

Now, before anything, I must inform that I am Atheist. Meaning, I'll be looking at this strictly from a fictitious sense and using the Bible as my reference. So any tails of directly confronting satan in real life scenarios don't apply here.

Now, I honestly don't see it. I've only heard of Satan having a disagreement with god and he believed that he himself could be a better leader. In addition, the only real time Satan ever kills anyone in the Bible, it's Job's kids and only because he made a bet with God that if Job had all his blessings taken away, then he wouldn't worship God anymore.

Is there any reference to Satan doing anything truly dastardly on his own?

[TheAvengerLever]

This is a touchy subject with a lot of people. And You'll soon learn why.

I'll even point you out to corresponding verses.

In the beginning, Satan ruled as an anointed cherub over the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 18:15-onward)

He was anointed with every beautiful stone, and he was the most beautiful angel. This is where the problem begins. He is corrupted by his own beauty, and begins to think that he is better than God. Not necessarily a better ruler, but better. (Isaiah 14:12)

So he rebels in Heaven, and he takes a third of the angels of heaven with him against the Lord, and there is a great war. (Revelations 12:7-9)

Satan is hurled down to Earth (in those same verses) for his rebellion.

Now, Satan has done the most dastardly thing of all. He corrupted Man, and led us on this slow path of destruction. He convinced Man to eat of the tree that God forbade him to. This is of course taking into account believing that the Lord is infallible and he can do no wrong. But, that's for you to decide.

The reason Christians believe Satan is evil is because his mission is to drive Man away from God, and God is all things Good, and is Love. He (Satan) wants us to burn in hell with him.

Any questions?

Edited by TheAvengerButton, 04 December 2008 - 11:47 AM.

[Green Goblin]

if God is all things good, why could he see no other resolution with Satan than to cast him down? What that war boils down to is opinion. You could argue that Satan has a superiority complex, but I'm still not seeing anything genuinely evil. Just that he disagrees with God. If God truly is infallible, he could've found a way to convince Lucifer that he was wrong.

[Fizzbit]

Yeah I'm kinda with Goblin here. Superiority complex, yes. Persuasive, yes. So he's betraying God, and he's not afraid to think on his own and encourages others to think with their own minds rather than thinking "through God", but I'm not seeing anything just utterly disgusting that would warrant him as evil.

[MikePetersSucks]

Now, Satan has done the most dastardly thing of all. He corrupted Man, and led us on this slow path of destruction. He convinced Man to eat of the tree that God forbade him to. This is of course taking into account believing that the Lord is infallible and he can do no wrong. But, that's for you to decide.

Now here's something I want to ask. What, in the Bible, says that Satan is the serpent? As far as I recall, none of the Genesis passages say so, the connection only made by calling Satan a serpent in Revelations, which is obviously a metaphor. Did Satan possess the snake, or what? And if so, why did God curse the snake's entire species when it was forced to tempt Eve against it's will? Why not punish Satan directly and let Mr. Snake off with a warning?

If God truly is infallible, he could've found a way to convince Lucifer that he was wrong.

Hell, I could think of a way to do it: Let Lucifer rule the cosmos for a short, but sufficient, period of time, and either wait for (or orchestrate) everything fall to shit to let Lucifer see he's not worthy of the power he's demanding. That should humble his ass right quick.

Frankly, Lucifer never struck me as evil, just arrogant, and we're all arrogant at some point. All Lucifer really needs is things put in perspective, and quite frankly, he seems like a nicer guy than most Biblical figures, God included.

[insert Luciferianism plug here]

Edited by MikePetersSucks, 04 December 2008 - 01:41 PM.

[Doopliss]

The thing is quite simple: In religion God is portrayed as a perfect being whose teachings and decisions are absolutely flawless, and therefore EVERYTHING that comes from him is supremely good. Since God NEVER gets it wrong, every time you disobey God you're doing evil deeds. No matter how unreasonable and ridiculous God's orders are, you must obey him because supposedly there's always a good reason behind his words, even though it's beyond our understanding. Satan's mistake was to believe that he could take his own decisions freely, against God's will; in one word: disobedience.

Now, why is disobedience the greatest sin? Well, simply because every institutionalised religion is based upon blind obedience to its teachings. At least among the Catholics, it is a belief that the Pope can never be wrong in matters concerning faith, and this fictitious infallibility of his is the only thing that makes the Church so strong. Satan was condemmed to eternal damnation for disobeying God, so will you if you disobey the Vatican. Yeah, that's how religion works, that's why I think it's evil and why I'm an atheist.

[Travuko]

I'm not sure if you are asking a genuine question here or trying to assert your position. You're an atheist, and that's fine. And as such you believe that the bible is a complete work of fiction, an imaginative story conceived entirely by man, which also fine. And so, for the purpose, of this discussion we must treat the bible as a story and nothing else. Therefore we have understand that it was intent of the authors to make the character Satan the villain of the story and therefore evil.

Now at this point you can argue whether that character is really truly evil or just misguided or perhaps something else. And that is perfectly acceptable, so long as you maintain that your are discussing Satan as a character in a work of fiction. People do that all the time with other works of fiction. However, once you start speculating things and inserting opinions and "facts" that aren't included in the original text, you risk returning to this to an argument on religion.

Hmmm, this sounds vaguely familiar. Can't quick place it though. Oh well, I'm going to go make another post about whether Gannon is evil or not. And I'm going to include a whole bunch of stuff that isn't really included in the Zelda canon including my own personal beliefs.


Edit: Oh and as a side note, I too am really confused by the whole Satan is evil thing and I often philosophize with myself to determine what exactly is sin and what does it mean to sin. But that is a discussion on religion.

Edited by Travuko, 04 December 2008 - 03:19 PM.

[TheAvengerLever]

Now here's something I want to ask. What, in the Bible, says that Satan is the serpent? As far as I recall, none of the Genesis passages say so, the connection only made by calling Satan a serpent in Revelations, which is obviously a metaphor. Did Satan possess the snake, or what? And if so, why did God curse the snake's entire species when it was forced to tempt Eve against it's will? Why not punish Satan directly and let Mr. Snake off with a warning?

If God truly is infallible, he could've found a way to convince Lucifer that he was wrong.

Hell, I could think of a way to do it: Let Lucifer rule the cosmos for a short, but sufficient, period of time, and either wait for (or orchestrate) everything fall to shit to let Lucifer see he's not worthy of the power he's demanding. That should humble his ass right quick.

Frankly, Lucifer never struck me as evil, just arrogant, and we're all arrogant at some point. All Lucifer really needs is things put in perspective, and quite frankly, he seems like a nicer guy than most Biblical figures, God included.

[insert Luciferianism plug here]

Well, to answer Goblin's question about how God punishes Satan, what God is doing is allowing Satan to tempt people, to test our faith and our will. See, to Christians, we all listen to God. We don't consider that following God on all things is wrong, and that doesn't make us misguided or (insert word that means unable to think on our own)

As to What MPS said about Lucifer's rule, that pretty much sounds like what the End Times are going to be like

And the serpent connection, well, we have a connection. It mentions that he is the "ancient serpent" twice in Revelations, it says to me that it implies a reference to the serpent of Genesis, but that's purely an opinion of myself in regards to the text.

I hope I've at least helped you understand a little of what you are asking.

Edited by TheAvengerButton, 04 December 2008 - 03:28 PM.

[Selena]

So he rebels in Heaven, and he takes a third of the angels of heaven with him against the Lord, and there is a great war. (Revelations 12:7-9) Satan is hurled down to Earth (in those same verses) for his rebellion.

That happens at the end of the world, though. The angels that 'fell' early on in the Bible, Lucifer included, fell for a variety of reasons. I think Lucifer fell because of pride. Others fell because they had sex with human women and ended up breeding a race of giant superhumans. This is laid out more clearly in Jewish apocrypha, but that obviously doesn't "count."

Hell, I could think of a way to do it: Let Lucifer rule the cosmos for a short, but sufficient, period of time, and either wait for (or orchestrate) everything fall to shit to let Lucifer see he's not worthy of the power he's demanding. That should humble his ass right quick.

An interesting statement, because this happened, but with a neighboring pagan culture who have the same themes going on. The Ugarit culture essentially lived right by the early Hebrew people. Just to the north, in Syria. Their height was between 1600 BC and 1300 BC. The Old Testament was supposedly written in 1200 BC at the earliest. Both the Hebrews and the Ugarits are a part of a greater set of beliefs found throughout the western Levant. There's also influence from Sumer (much older, to the east) all around, because the Sumerians traded like crazy. You can still find their language reflected in Arabic and Hebrew (Shalom and Salaam both stem from Silim, the Sumerian greeting meaning 'peace and health').

There's a common theme of the sky god having a rivalry with a god that rules from some sort of abyss, which could potentially stem from Sumer. Whether this is a hateful relationship or not depends on the culture. It was friendly in Sumer (Enlil and Enki, who mainly just differ on how to raise humans). It was more hateful with the Ugarits. The Ugarit myth goes as follows:

- El is the supreme god of the universe, but he has two sons known as Hadad (sky) and Yah (sea, ruling from an abyss). Both are known as Elohim - sons of El. Elohim is a 'name' of God in the Bible.
- Both Hadad and Yah want to be in charge.
- El gives Yah the power to rule.
- Yah turns into a tyrant after some time, enslaving both god and human alike.
- Hadad storms in and defeats Yah, swearing that he won't allow Yah to usurp heaven. Hadad is victorious.
- Hadad then assumes control.

One could make the stretching argument that this is a piece that's meant to show one regional god (Hadad for Ugarits, Yah (YHWH) for Hebrews) triumphing over the other as a form of culture war. And both just reversed it to make themselves come off as the victor. Not uncommon. Happened in Sumer a few times, though not as violently.

Satan is there to be an adversary. Not necessarily completely evil, or even a little evil, but every good sky god needs an underworld rival. At least as local tradition demands. It's another common theme with a lot of belief systems from that period and location.

[TheAvengerLever]

So he rebels in Heaven, and he takes a third of the angels of heaven with him against the Lord, and there is a great war. (Revelations 12:7-9) Satan is hurled down to Earth (in those same verses) for his rebellion.

That happens at the end of the world, though. The angels that 'fell' early on in the Bible, Lucifer included, fell for a variety of reasons. I think Lucifer fell because of pride. Others fell because they had sex with human women and ended up breeding a race of giant superhumans. This is laid out more clearly in Jewish apocrypha, but that obviously doesn't "count."

I've always been tought myself that it's symbolic of the beginning. The woman described in Chapter 12 of Genesis births a son, who is the nation of Israel. The Dragon comes because naturally, he wants to devour, or oppress, God's children, the child itself, which is Israel. Then the War is fought and the Dragon is cast out of heaven. And that's how he ends up on Earth to test humanity until the End Times.

But again, this is what I have been tought or have interpreted from the verses themselves.

EDIT:

I made a mistake in my interpretation. The woman represents Israel, and the child represents The Christ.

The War In Heaven is still fought in the beginning, before the Beginning.

Edited by TheAvengerButton, 04 December 2008 - 04:55 PM.

[Goose]

As the story goes, Satan wanted to put himself before God. Pride got in the way.

The reason Satan is hated so much is that he introduced original sin into the world, which is the cause of so many of the worlds problems.

What is the cause of War? I'm better than you because....
What is the cause of Poverty? I deserve the food and you dont because...
What is the cause of Hate? I'm better than you, and you dont deserve respect because..

What is the one of the causes of Depression? Your better than me and I dont deserve.. because..

The worst Sin of all is pride, because it is a precursor to all other Sins. It creates hate. It creates needless hunger. It creates opression. It creates vanity, lust, greed, sloth, gluttony and envy.

The reason Satan is hated so, is because he taught us how to become self centred. ITs all about me.

The message of the Gospel, whether you believe its just a story or not, is to put others before yourself, and in the greatest and most argued about myth ever told, the Son of God put us before himself, and died a horrible painful death.

You could argue that Satan = Its about loving me, self centered pride.

and that Jesus = Its about loving others, and putting them before yourself.

It could be argued that this is the reason Satan is hated so much.

[Raien]

I think the problem here is that people are judging the God/Satan relationship according to a modern understanding that balance is the best solution. If you look at the traditions of Carnival in medieval Europe, it derives from the fact that anarchy was utterly supressed with the exception of this one day before Lent, in which people turned social conventions on their heads and lived as anarchics. As people have since come to accept deviance, the impact of Carnival has lessened. People today even question whether the government are leaders of the people or servants of the people.

God represents order and perfection, which in turn embodies all benevolent concepts like Love. Satan represents anarchy and imperfection, which embodies evil concepts like Hate. It's only as we move away from fundamentalist thinking that we separate order from benevolence and chaos from evil.

[CID Farwin]

It's odd how funny this thread is to me. Not the "ha ha" funny, but the other one.

You ask what makes Satan evil, what Lucifer did that makes him a "bad guy," when to those who believe in the Bible, he defines evil.

I just need you to clarify, what do you mean by "evil?" What's the standard here? What does one need to do to be considered "evil?"

[MikePetersSucks]

Well, to answer Goblin's question about how God punishes Satan, what God is doing is allowing Satan to tempt people, to test our faith and our will. See, to Christians, we all listen to God. We don't consider that following God on all things is wrong, and that doesn't make us misguided or (insert word that means unable to think on our own)

That doesn't address my question at all. Tempting people and possessing them so you can force them to do what you want are totally different, and even if they weren't, it's just one snake. Why the hell are all snakes punished for what one snake did against it's will?

As to What MPS said about Lucifer's rule, that pretty much sounds like what the End Times are going to be like

I mean heaven, earth, hell, the whole damn Cosmos, with God, as part of the experiment, not giving his input in any matter. Maybe even let Satan create his own universe and see how it turns out. "Not so easy, huh?" The point being that the End Times scenario won't be sufficient, as Satan still has to work within God's little framework role for him.

[Selena]

Why the hell are all snakes punished for what one snake did against it's will?

Folklore for why snakes don't have feet.

And the anti-serpent/snake theme, as shared by a number of cultures, especially from that area of the world. I don't think the snake was doing it against his will, though. I always saw that part as either the snake being an entirely separate entity, or Satan shape shifting in the same way Loki or any other good supernatural villain can. A lot of Christians seem to take to the shape shifting idea. No, I don't know why that means all the snakes get condemned, but again, it's probably just an element of folklore. Maybe God didn't notice it was really Satan.

I just need you to clarify, what do you mean by "evil?" What's the standard here? What does one need to do to be considered "evil?"

Well he often gets played up as the anti-God, both the incarnation of evil and the Lex Luthor to God's Superman. But that seems more like a New Testament thing. In the Book of Job, God and Satan disagreed on the matter of humans cursing God after they were afflicted with horrible circumstances. God then gives Satan permission to ruin Job's life and inflict horrible pain upon him. And Job, being so devout, is the exact kind of person God would usually be trying to protect from harm rather than give the OK to Satan to essentially do everything but kill him. They come off less as enemies, and more like two guys betting over how much torture a person can handle before they snap.

Satan in the original documents seems more like he's obeying the will of God more than acting like the archnemesis of God. It wasn't "I'm going to torture Job to get his soul away from God." It seemed like it was more "I'm going to torture Job so that you, my Lord, can see that humans are not the devout creatures you seem to think they are."

I suppose you could argue Job's incident was before the 'fall,' but I understood that to happen almost right away after man's creation. If not, then when was the fall? If anybody fell at all.

[Green Goblin]

Methinks Goose answered best here. The problem here is that pride in itself, is not necessarily evil. It can be good or bad. Because as you've shown even in your own example(depression), LACK of pride leads to negatives as well.

I know that it's one of the seven deadly sins, but if it's one that literally EVERYONE suffers from in some degree, I don't see how that can be seen directly as evil.

[Poore]

Think about it this way:

By the Christian faith, accepting salvation through Christ means getting into Heaven. Which means eternal happiness. Which, I would argue, is pretty good.

By contrast, Satan, through deceit and corruption, tries to lead people AWAY from salvation through Christ. Which means eternal damnation. Which, I would argue, is not so good.


I think trying to rob all humanity of an eternity in paradise on the basis of your own foolish pride would qualify as at least a little bit "evil".

[Green Goblin]

Think about it this way:

By the Christian faith, accepting salvation through Christ means getting into Heaven. Which means eternal happiness. Which, I would argue, is pretty good.

By contrast, Satan, through deceit and corruption, tries to lead people AWAY from salvation through Christ. Which means eternal damnation. Which, I would argue, is not so good.


I think trying to rob all humanity of an eternity in paradise on the basis of your own foolish pride would qualify as at least a little bit "evil".

That's just it though. I'm not seeing anything necessarily deceitful or corrupt in his actions. It's more along the lines of him giving you a choice to think for yourselves and the benefits therein. It just so happens that God doesn't like that and throws a hissyfit anytime someone tries. That's not Satan's fault. That's God pouting because everything doesn't get to be all about him

[Goose]

Methinks Goose answered best here. The problem here is that pride in itself, is not necessarily evil. It can be good or bad. Because as you've shown even in your own example(depression), LACK of pride leads to negatives as well.

I know that it's one of the seven deadly sins, but if it's one that literally EVERYONE suffers from in some degree, I don't see how that can be seen directly as evil.

This is where it gets tricky.

The thing lacking in the above example was self esteem, not pride.

Pride, in my defintion, (Which may be flawed) is about the comparison of yourself to others, and how much better or worse you are in relation to them.

Self esteem is being confident in yourself, and not giving a horses shinbone what others think.

It is like there are two types of pride. Its okay to be proud of an achievement, like for example I just got a High Distinction on a book I had to write for my final university assignment, and I'm really proud of what I handed in. My tutor said it was publishable, and I'm proud of my work.

Thats the good kind.

Now the other kind would be for me to consider myself better than others, because of that acomplishment. I worked hard and laboured over every word in that book, but that doesn't mean I'm better than other people, just that I worked hard and that it paid off. Other people achieve other things.

And with the seven deadly sins, how we all do suffer from pride to some extent, because we all stuff up, (quite evident in daily life. ) the reason Satan is hated so much is that he introduced it to us. If he, in serpent form as believed, hadn't whispered in Eve's ear, we could've been completely happy going about our gardening business in paradise.

What I'm arguing is that the reason Satan is hated so, is that he introduced Sin (pride) and caused us to destroy ourselves and those around us.

[SteveT]

Then of course, there's a less common theory.

Satan is God's agent to test humans (like Job), and humans think he takes it too far. Maybe he enjoys catching people, but that's not really the point. His job is to test us, and it pisses people off, so we paint him as evil incarnate.

Traffic cops get the same treatment.

[TheAvengerLever]

That doesn't address my question at all. Tempting people and possessing them so you can force them to do what you want are totally different, and even if they weren't, it's just one snake. Why the hell are all snakes punished for what one snake did against it's will?

Sorry, that was in response to GG. I'll address your question now. I'm pretty sure all Christians agree that Satan and the Serpent are one in the same. Now, as to why all snakes were punished because of what one snake did, maybe or maybe not against its will, the answer to that question is as complicated and confusing to someone who wasn't a Christian as asking, "Why must all man suffer for what two people did thousands of years ago in a garden?"

As to What MPS said about Lucifer's rule, that pretty much sounds like what the End Times are going to be like

I mean heaven, earth, hell, the whole damn Cosmos, with God, as part of the experiment, not giving his input in any matter. Maybe even let Satan create his own universe and see how it turns out. "Not so easy, huh?" The point being that the End Times scenario won't be sufficient, as Satan still has to work within God's little framework role for him.

I know what you were saying. That was just a little joke I threw out there.

That's just it though. I'm not seeing anything necessarily deceitful or corrupt in his actions. It's more along the lines of him giving you a choice to think for yourselves and the benefits therein. It just so happens that God doesn't like that and throws a hissyfit anytime someone tries. That's not Satan's fault. That's God pouting because everything doesn't get to be all about him

Well, of course all of Christian belief relies on the notion that God is infallible, and that whatever he says goes. I dunno, the whole God thing makes sense to me. God is infallible, because he is such, everything he says is right. And even if it wasn't, he's God. He has power over us all. So that pretty much makes him right by default because frankly, someone who is all powerful and all knowing probably would know what's best for feeble little creatures such as us. I can see where people can believe that God is pretty much an attention whore and what he does is ridiculous, but I myself just can't believe that to be logical. No offense to anyone who believes otherwise. This is just me putting down my two cents.

[Green Goblin]

Methinks Goose answered best here. The problem here is that pride in itself, is not necessarily evil. It can be good or bad. Because as you've shown even in your own example(depression), LACK of pride leads to negatives as well.

I know that it's one of the seven deadly sins, but if it's one that literally EVERYONE suffers from in some degree, I don't see how that can be seen directly as evil.

This is where it gets tricky.

The thing lacking in the above example was self esteem, not pride.

Pride, in my defintion, (Which may be flawed) is about the comparison of yourself to others, and how much better or worse you are in relation to them.

Self esteem is being confident in yourself, and not giving a horses shinbone what others think.

It is like there are two types of pride. Its okay to be proud of an achievement, like for example I just got a High Distinction on a book I had to write for my final university assignment, and I'm really proud of what I handed in. My tutor said it was publishable, and I'm proud of my work.

Thats the good kind.

Now the other kind would be for me to consider myself better than others, because of that acomplishment. I worked hard and laboured over every word in that book, but that doesn't mean I'm better than other people, just that I worked hard and that it paid off. Other people achieve other things.

And with the seven deadly sins, how we all do suffer from pride to some extent, because we all stuff up, (quite evident in daily life. ) the reason Satan is hated so much is that he introduced it to us. If he, in serpent form as believed, hadn't whispered in Eve's ear, we could've been completely happy going about our gardening business in paradise.

What I'm arguing is that the reason Satan is hated so, is that he introduced Sin (pride) and caused us to destroy ourselves and those around us.

Just going right to the source here:

Pride: a feeling or deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired


self-esteem
noun
confidence in one's own worth or abilities; self-respect

While the two do vary ever-so-slightly, I'm still not seeing anything definitively evil in pride. If pride however is combined with indifference, dismissiveness or hatred of your fellow man, THEN it becomes something evil.

By itself however, it's basically harmless.

Well, of course all of Christian belief relies on the notion that God is infallible, and that whatever he says goes. I dunno, the whole God thing makes sense to me. God is infallible, because he is such, everything he says is right. And even if it wasn't, he's God. He has power over us all. So that pretty much makes him right by default because frankly, someone who is all powerful and all knowing probably would know what's best for feeble little creatures such as us. I can see where people can believe that God is pretty much an attention whore and what he does is ridiculous, but I myself just can't believe that to be logical. No offense to anyone who believes otherwise. This is just me putting down my two cents.

Well, we do only have his word that he's infallible. Hell, even he was thinking he made a mistake in creating the world and decided to flood it. That act alone proves that he is flawed. More than anything, it's not about claiming that he's not infallible. It's about questioning how he is and putting it to the test before giving him all your devotion.

Edited by Green Goblin, 05 December 2008 - 12:23 AM.

[TheAvengerLever]

Well, we do only have his word that he's infallible. Hell, even he was thinking he made a mistake in creating the world and decided to flood it. That act alone proves that he is flawed. More than anything, it's not about claiming that he's not infallible. It's about questioning how he is and putting it to the test before giving him all your devotion.

I don't think the Bible portrays God as being regretful and thinking he made a mistake. He simply saw how wicked the world had become, and he also saw that there was one pure family in the entire pack. And so he decided to purge the Earth of wickedness, and spare the purity.

[Showsni]

I think the deadly sin version of pride is more hubris than pride. Wasn't apathy originally a deadly sin?

[spunky-monkey]

Okay we can't solve this problem so let's discuss what the Bible has to say; from what I can gather it has never explicitly labelled Satan as the very incarnation of 'evil', possibly because it's either riddled with contradictions/inaccuracies, or there simply is no such thing as good or evil to begin with, well, we know for a fact they're both immaterial seeing how the universe is actually governed by cause and effect.

There isn't a lot to expand upon so let's study the fall from grace:

Ezekiel 28:11-19
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Okay, from the get-go this makes absolutely no sense. You cannot be perfect and then *bang* suddenly imperfect. A truly infallible personality cannot descend into corruption or be affected by external corrupt forces. Perfection by the benevolent God's standards normally transcends from what is finitely good (creation, man, animals) to the point where the being in question is classed as infinitely good (i.e. the angels, archangels). You cannot add or subtract from infinity, that's like impossible. Anyway arguing with a book is futile, so moving on...

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

So... he became as vain as a peacock? A flawed ego perhaps, arrogant probably, but can hardly be classified as the pure malevolence he's dubbed as in popular media.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. (KJV)

For his trespasses (bearing in mind an angel is no threat to an all-powerful God) he's utterly annihilated by his own loving creator, without any effort at all from this maker to at least redeem, forgive, recreate, humble and/or preserve some aspect of him. Nope, complete and total destruction. A sad fate for a tragic character.

Let's suppose Satan out of indifference didn't want to serve his master. If God were fair, he would've released him from this endless monotony in another's sovereignty, thereby permitting the free agent to live out whatever existence he originally wanted, totally separate from the rest of creation. There'd be nothing for him out there, but at least he's answerable to no one but his own will. Of course more reading from the Bible strictly dictates that anyone and everyone who opposes God dies, usually in a graphical fashion too. I guess a tribunal is out of the question then?


Oh and just for the record - God has murdered way more people than the devil ever has.

[TheAvengerLever]

Okay we can't solve this problem so let's discuss what the Bible has to say; from what I can gather it has never explicitly labelled Satan as the very incarnation of 'evil', possibly because it's either riddled with contradictions/inaccuracies, or there simply is no such thing as good or evil to begin with, well, we know for a fact they're both immaterial seeing how the universe is actually governed by cause and effect.

There isn't a lot to expand upon so let's study the fall from grace:

Ezekiel 28:11-19
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Okay, from the get-go this makes absolutely no sense. You cannot be perfect and then *bang* suddenly imperfect. A truly infallible personality cannot descend into corruption or be affected by external corrupt forces. Perfection by the benevolent God's standards normally transcends from what is finitely good (creation, man, animals) to the point where the being in question is classed as infinitely good (i.e. the angels, archangels). You cannot add or subtract from infinity, that's like impossible. Anyway arguing with a book is futile, so moving on...

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

So... he became as vain as a peacock? A flawed ego perhaps, arrogant probably, but can hardly be classified as the pure malevolence he's dubbed as in popular media.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. (KJV)

For his trespasses (bearing in mind an angel is no threat to an all-powerful God) he's utterly annihilated by his own loving creator, without any effort at all from this maker to at least redeem, forgive, recreate, humble and/or preserve some aspect of him. Nope, complete and total destruction. A sad fate for a tragic character.

Let's suppose Satan out of indifference didn't want to serve his master. If God were fair, he would've released him from this endless monotony in another's sovereignty, thereby permitting the free agent to live out whatever existence he originally wanted, totally separate from the rest of creation. There'd be nothing for him out there, but at least he's answerable to no one but his own will. Of course more reading from the Bible strictly dictates that anyone and everyone who opposes God dies, usually in a graphical fashion too. I guess a tribunal is out of the question then?


Oh and just for the record - God has murdered way more people than the devil ever has.

Wouldn't it be a little dumb in the first place to even fight against the Almighty? He's God. He's all powerful and all knowing. That's not really someone you should pick your fights with.

[MikePetersSucks]

Sorry, that was in response to GG. I'll address your question now. I'm pretty sure all Christians agree that Satan and the Serpent are one in the same. Now, as to why all snakes were punished because of what one snake did, maybe or maybe not against its will, the answer to that question is as complicated and confusing to someone who wasn't a Christian as asking, "Why must all man suffer for what two people did thousands of years ago in a garden?"

Well, why did he? If Satan's the evil guy, why is God being completely unjust and unfair, here? Shouldn't he have atleast made it so Cain/Abel and their descendants had to eat the fruit in order to count too?

Well, of course all of Christian belief relies on the notion that God is infallible, and that whatever he says goes. I dunno, the whole God thing makes sense to me. God is infallible, because he is such, everything he says is right. And even if it wasn't, he's God. He has power over us all. So that pretty much makes him right by default because frankly, someone who is all powerful and all knowing probably would know what's best for feeble little creatures such as us. I can see where people can believe that God is pretty much an attention whore and what he does is ridiculous, but I myself just can't believe that to be logical. No offense to anyone who believes otherwise. This is just me putting down my two cents.

Might makes Right. Stalin knew what was best for his people because he was totally in charge and had absolute power over them, right? He was infallible if you wanted to live.

I don't think the Bible portrays God as being regretful and thinking he made a mistake. He simply saw how wicked the world had become, and he also saw that there was one pure family in the entire pack. And so he decided to purge the Earth of wickedness, and spare the purity.

Which brings a better question. Instead of all the hoops that'd have to be gone through for the Flood to work (regardless of whether or not it happened, God would've had to violate the laws of physics to make the Flood and Ark thing work, not to mention the animal thing), why not do something much simpler with the same effect, like transporting all the wicked people directly into Hell Rapture-style, or something? And how could all the world be wicked except one family? Does that include children and infants who, according to the same doctrine, aren't yet accountable for their actions?

Wouldn't it be a little dumb in the first place to even fight against the Almighty? He's God. He's all powerful and all knowing. That's not really someone you should pick your fights with.

That still doesn't really justify the extent of God's punishment, however. Why DIDN'T Lucifer and those guys get some chance at redemption? Humans did, and God, being all-loving, shouldn't play favorites. At the very least, he could've talked to Lucifer to see if he could change his mind. After all, he's the Almighty. He should be able to make the perfectly convincing argument without having to resort to force.

[TheAvengerLever]

Well, why did he? If Satan's the evil guy, why is God being completely unjust and unfair, here? Shouldn't he have atleast made it so Cain/Abel and their descendants had to eat the fruit in order to count too?

]

Well no. Sin is passed on through descendants like genetics to babies. At least, that's how I always understood it.

Might makes Right. Stalin knew what was best for his people because he was totally in charge and had absolute power over them, right? He was infallible if you wanted to live.

You can't compare God to a human being. Stalin had no idea what was right for his people. He couldn't possibly know what's in their mind and their hearts. God does.

Which brings a better question. Instead of all the hoops that'd have to be gone through for the Flood to work (regardless of whether or not it happened, God would've had to violate the laws of physics to make the Flood and Ark thing work, not to mention the animal thing), why not do something much simpler with the same effect, like transporting all the wicked people directly into Hell Rapture-style, or something? And how could all the world be wicked except one family? Does that include children and infants who, according to the same doctrine, aren't yet accountable for their actions?

Well, if the Bible says that there was wickedness in everyone except for Noah's family, then that's that. It sounds harsh, but again. He's God. You can oppose him if you like, but it may not be smart.

As to why God didn't just send all the wicked to hell, think about it this way. The Flood was very theatrical and showy. It's the perfect picture to paint someone to warn them that this is what happens to you when you defy God. And it was painted to Noah and his family.

That still doesn't really justify the extent of God's punishment, however. Why DIDN'T Lucifer and those guys get some chance at redemption? Humans did, and God, being all-loving, shouldn't play favorites. At the very least, he could've talked to Lucifer to see if he could change his mind. After all, he's the Almighty. He should be able to make the perfectly convincing argument without having to resort to force.

It's part of the great plan to give more glory to God. God allows the world to fall, so through him it could be redeemed to show human beings that he deserves the glory.


Look, the nature of God will never be understood. I don't understand it myself, but my faith helps me believe in God, that he is good. I know to [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of people his actions are questionable, but it's going to be impossible for you to understand his methods. But that's not why we're here. We're not here to say, "Well, God is a bastard because he did this or this." or "God is good because he did this or this." We're here to redeem ourselves through Christ and join God in heaven, or to not join God.

So it doesn't matter what questions you ask or what proofs both sides present, it's not as important as the individual choice to accept God or not.

[Poore]

Quick thought:

This discussion has become relevant only if you follow a strictly literal interpretation of the Bible, i.e. there are no shades of meaning, no interpretations, no allegories, etc., etc., etc. But back to the topic at hand.


Pride, on an individual level, is not harmful. But Satan's pride, and why he is 'evil', affects more than just himself. If you follow the logical train of his thought, Satan equated himself with God. Which means he thought he could do better than God. Okay, nothing harmful in that thought (per se). Then consider that he went to war to try and prove that he was better, and lost. Ok. Cool. War isn't a good thing, and starting a war that is essentially a divine coup is probably a bit worse, and I would say already that's kind of an 'evil' thing to do. It wasn't so much the fact that he believed he was better than God, but the fact that he became the aggressor in a conflict that could possibly have terrible consequences simply because he thought he knew better than God seems to be indicative of a less-than-magnanimous personality.

Example: The United States feels it knows how to run Iraq better than their current government, and we disagree with some of that governments decisions, so we start a war to establish our sovereignty to prove it. It's not a perfect analogy (the war in Iraq isn't solely based on Imperialistic tendencies), but I think you see my point. Even if their motives aren't necessarily evil, the aggressor in a conflict is usually not the most benevolent of the two combating parties.

However, he didn't stop there. Satan had his failed war to prove he was better (or, at least, as good as God), and then gets kicked out of Heaven. What does he do? Does he go to God and try to make amends? Does he think about and regret his actions? No. He decides to give God the finger and tries to totally wreck God's shit. He introduces Sin to mankind to separate them, eternally, from God.

Let me repeat that: because he was a sore loser, Satan has, since his fall, has tried to consign the entire human race to damnation. I do not see how that cannot be called anything but evil.

Edited by Poore, 05 December 2008 - 07:08 PM.

[TheAvengerLever]

I think with Satan it's one of those things where just maybe, he could be forgiven for what he does, he just doesn't want to be forgiven and because he conciously is opposing God then as long as he does so, God won't give him forgiveness.