75 replies to this topic

[wring]

How can you not see the similarities between FSA and ALTTP? The Dark World appears in both, so does the Moon Pearl, and they both have Seven Maidens who get trapped inside of crystals. Also, the Four Sword is very clearly connected to the Dark World because whoever holds it can see into the Dark World, as well.

[Raien]

2) The makers of FSA show the maidens sealing the Four Sword. You and MPS have said that there's no way such a seal could have been related to the Sacred Realm, even though it's identical to at least two depictions of Sacred Realm seals, and possibly three. Citing "it's not literal" for the two known depictions is a very weak argument.

You mean like it was a weak argument that "sealed away from the world" was a metaphor? I think after that fiasco, it's clear that you aren't in a position to dictate that metaphors weaken an argument, considering that you clearly don't understand their importance in establishing function. In this case, you argue that the two seals must be the same because they are shaped as pyramids, yet you ignore the fact that their manipulations of space are entirely different. ALttP's seal depicted darkness contained within the pyramid, yet the Dark World remained parallel to Hyrule and the portals between realms remained intact. The pyramid seal in this context is a metaphor; it represents the nature of the seal without depicting the entire Dark World plane being contained from the Hyrule plane. But the space depicted within the FSA pyramid seal is identical to the Four Sword Sanctuary; space within the seal has clearly not been manipulated in any way. The pyramid seal in this context is thus literal, and that establishes it as different in function from ALttP's seal.

The Light Force in all depictions looks exactly like a piece of the Triforce, but the established function and context tells us otherwise. FSA's pyramid seal looks like ALttP's seal, but the established function and context tells us otherwise.

3) Furthermore, the makers of FSA refer back to ALttP Palace of the Four Sword in another way by featuring Link Doppelgangers, the final bosses of the Palace of the Four Sword. This is yet another throwback to ALttP, specifically ALttP's Palace of the Four Sword, which was previously uncanon.

Since when do throwbacks indicate a timeline connection? TP strongly throwbacks to ALttP in its depiction of the Master Sword, yet you don't argue that the two games are connected in the timeline.

Also, the Four Sword is very clearly connected to the Dark World because whoever holds it can see into the Dark World, as well.

The Dark World in ALttP is the Sacred Realm transformed by Ganon's wish on the Triforce. Ganon didn't have the Triforce in FSA, so the Dark World in FSA cannot be the Dark World that features in ALttP. In fact, FSA clearly depicts Hyrule in a state of transformation into the Dark World; Princess Zelda in FSA even says that this is the case. So the Four Sword's connection to FSA's Dark World does not give it a magical ability to jump into the unrelated Sacred Realm.

Edited by Raian, 22 September 2008 - 02:04 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

The Dark World appears in both,

It's not the same Dark World.

Compare "Kuragari no Rikujou" to "Yami no Sekai."

[Lexxi Aileron]

I think after that fiasco, it's clear that you aren't in a position to dictate that metaphors weaken an argument, considering that you clearly don't understand their importance in establishing function.

1) I'm a freaking English major; of course I know the importance of metaphors. I'm simply arguing that it doesn't have to be taken metaphorically, especially given that most seals on evil in the Zelda series trap evil in another realm.
2) Stop claiming the interpretational highground. Doing so is a fallacy of the highest degree.

In this case, you argue that the two seals must be the same because they are shaped as pyramids, yet you ignore the fact that their manipulations of space are entirely different.

What the crap are you even talking about? They're images; how can I possibly rate how they manipulate space when all I see is their appearance? Aren't you the one who said we're dealing with fantasy, not science?

But the space depicted within the FSA pyramid seal is identical to the Four Sword Sanctuary; space within the seal has clearly not been manipulated in any way. The pyramid seal in this context is thus literal, and that establishes it as different in function from ALttP's seal.

This is all purely a matter of interpretation.

The Light Force in all depictions looks exactly like a piece of the Triforce, but the established function and context tells us otherwise. FSA's pyramid seal looks like ALttP's seal, but the established function and context tells us otherwise.

"Force" (not "Light force") appears in other games in the same form, however.

FSA's pyramid seal has no "established function" aside to seal Ganon away from the world, which was the same established function of the sages' seal.

Since when do throwbacks indicate a timeline connection?

Since Toru Osawa talked about "pseudo-secrets" when OoT came out?

TP strongly throwbacks to ALttP in its depiction of the Master Sword, yet you don't argue that the two games are connected in the timeline.

That's because all sacred swords in Zelda, aside from the Phantom Sword in PH, are at some point in a pedestal in the woods, thus the repetition of this pattern need not tell us anything in particular.

[wring]

The Dark World appears in both,

It's not the same Dark World.

Compare "Kuragari no Rikujou" to "Yami no Sekai."

They are the exact same right down to the Moon Pearl. How can Hyrule have TWO other dark versions of Hyrule??

[TheAvengerLever]

^One is the Sacred Realm's reflection of Ganondorf's heart. The other just seems like another dimension. But that's as far as I know. I lost my copy of FSA before beating it *bastardly theiving gnomes*

[Raien]

1) I'm a freaking English major; of course I know the importance of metaphors. I'm simply arguing that it doesn't have to be taken metaphorically, especially given that most seals on evil in the Zelda series trap evil in another realm.

Oh, for goodness' sake! You can't seriously be arguing that because evil has been sealed in the Sacred Realm in some instances (the instances where the Sacred Realm was already spawning demons), that it becomes an immediate rule to be applied in other situations regardless of context or symbolism? And you said you understood the importance of metaphors; what a joke.

What the crap are you even talking about? They're images; how can I possibly rate how they manipulate space when all I see is their appearance? Aren't you the one who said we're dealing with fantasy, not science?

I said we're dealing with symbolism; fantasy is but a construct of symbolism (but not the only construct of symbolism).

First, look at the crystal that sealed Princess Zelda in OoT; her body did not change shape or size and she was shown to put her hands against the walls. This image indicates that the crystal is a simple barrier that separates Zelda from the outside world, which could then be used to transport her to Ganon's castle. But then if we look at the crystals that sealed the Maidens in ALttP, they were small enough to be held in Link's hands and fit into his pockets. This shows that the size of a Maiden was clearly manipulated within the crystal, although the Maiden was still trapped within the space of the crystal.

Now here's the interesting thing with this comparison; both the seals were depicted as crystals, yet the nature of the seals were different. They held captive bodies within them, but the manipulation of space was clearly different. But with that said, the pyramid seal around the Four Sword is not the same shape as Princess Zelda's crystal seal, but it possesses the same manipulation of space. The Four Sword had not changed shape or size within the seal, and it remained locked into the pedestal that was built for it in the Sanctuary, which clearly indicates that the seal is a simple barrier. If the Four Sword was removed from the Sanctuary, the best indication for that would be a removal from the pedestal.

What separates the ALttP Sages seal from the others is that its' depiction of space within the pyramid affects the world outside of it. If the cloud of darkness (representing Ganon's evil magic) was literally contained within that pyramid, then the Dark World would have to be contained within the pyramid as well. Yet portals to the Dark World appear all over the Kingdom of Hyrule; an expanse beyond the confines of a small pyramid. Since the relationship between the Dark World and Hyrule in this context doesn't reflect the pyramid's design, that leads us to believe that the pyramid is not a literal depiction of the seal, but a figurative representation of the containment of the Dark World.

That's because all sacred swords in Zelda, aside from the Phantom Sword in PH, are at some point in a pedestal in the woods, thus the repetition of this pattern need not tell us anything in particular.

The disappearance of the mist with the removal of the sword was an event that only previously occurred in ALttP. The image of the Master Sword in the woods during the end credits was clearly a throwback to ALttP. With that consideration, ALttP follows TP in the timeline by your logic.

They are the exact same right down to the Moon Pearl. How can Hyrule have TWO other dark versions of Hyrule??

Ganon was trying to cover Hyrule in darkness in ALttP and OoT, was he not? FSA's Dark World is the literal depiction of a transformed Hyrule, and undoubtedly it disappeared when Ganon was sealed within the Four Sword. At that time, the Sacred Realm was not the Dark World because Ganon had not yet wished upon the Triforce.

And the Moon Pearl isn't the same either. In ALttP, it was a single treasure that protected its holder from the power of the Triforce, but in FSA, there were several Moon Pearls that simply served as portals to the FSA Dark World (which btw has no connnection to the Triforce).

Edited by Raian, 22 September 2008 - 07:26 PM.

[wring]

First, look at the crystal that sealed Princess Zelda in OoT; her body did not change shape or size and she was shown to put her hands against the walls. This image indicates that the crystal is a simple barrier that separates Zelda from the outside world, which could then be used to transport her to Ganon's castle. But then if we look at the crystals that sealed the Maidens in ALttP, they were small enough to be held in Link's hands and fit into his pockets. This shows that the size of a Maiden was clearly manipulated within the crystal, although the Maiden was still trapped within the space of the crystal.

How do we know Zelda's seal couldn't manipulate space? There was never a need to carry her around in Link's pocket.

[Raien]

How do we know Zelda's seal couldn't manipulate space? There was never a need to carry her around in Link's pocket.

Are you suggesting that the persons who cast a seal can choose its properties to fit the purpose they have for it? That's exactly what I am arguing is the case. If the seal-casters dictate the properties of the seal, then shape really doesn't have any importance (apart from as a symbolic representation, of course. Pyramids are famous for their properties as containment devices).

Edited by Raian, 23 September 2008 - 06:03 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

They are the exact same right down to the Moon Pearl. How can Hyrule have TWO other dark versions of Hyrule??

No, they're not exactly the same. LTTP's is a reflection of Ganon's heart in the Sacred Realm, and anyone who enters it becomes a monster, the Moon Pearl allowing one to maintain their form. FSA's is a creation of the Dark Mirror with no connection to the Sacred Realm, and the Moon Pearls simply act as keys to get there. If you want, there's even a third in the form of the Twilight Realm. Deal with it.

But then if we look at the crystals that sealed the Maidens in ALttP, they were small enough to be held in Link's hands and fit into his pockets. This shows that the size of a Maiden was clearly manipulated within the crystal, although the Maiden was still trapped within the space of the crystal.

Interesting tidbit is that in manga and comics, the Maidens have lost their bodies with their souls sealed into crystals.

[spunky-monkey]

No, they're not exactly the same. LTTP's is a reflection of Ganon's heart in the Sacred Realm, and anyone who enters it becomes a monster, the Moon Pearl allowing one to maintain their form. FSA's is a creation of the Dark Mirror with no connection to the Sacred Realm, and the Moon Pearls simply act as keys to get there. If you want, there's even a third in the form of the Twilight Realm. Deal with it.

Not strictly true. Anyone who enters the golden land/dark world becomes a reflection of their heart, explaining why Link became a harmless pink rabbit, and how Ganondorf took on the form of the savage pig-like creature first seen in LoZ.

[MikePetersSucks]

Not strictly true. Anyone who enters the golden land/dark world becomes a reflection of their heart, explaining why Link became a harmless pink rabbit, and how Ganondorf took on the form of the savage pig-like creature first seen in LoZ.

Close enough.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Not strictly true. Anyone who enters the golden land/dark world becomes a reflection of their heart, explaining why Link became a harmless pink rabbit, and how Ganondorf took on the form of the savage pig-like creature first seen in LoZ.

Presumably it is the power of the Triforce (used by Ganon) that is responsible, however. Everything we know about the Sacred Realm in ALttP is in the context of Ganon's Dark World.

[NM87]

I want to dispute the connection between FSA and ALTTP.

This, I have been waiting for.

[MikePetersSucks]

Ditto.

[Crimson Lego]

Same here. Let's start.