110 replies to this topic

[Vertiboy]

I've been away for a while because there hasn't been any new games with new story information for some time. I still made a few changes to my theory. If I am referring to the events of a game, I will just put the title of the game in caps. If an event on the timeline is a part of another game's backstory or implied to have happened, I will place the abbriviation of that game or games in parenthesis. Anything else (probable fan fiction, etc.) is simply there without sources.

Here is the short version of my theory. It is in my signature, but I am not sure how many tweaks could be made in the future, so I'll type it here.

Imprisoning War Timeline:

The Minish Cap -> Ocarina of Time (Adult Ending) -> A Link to the Past -> The Legend of Zelda -> The Adventure of Link -> Oracle of Ages/Oracle of Seasons -> Link's Awakening -> Four Swords -> Four Swords Adventures


Split Timeline:

Ocarina of Time (Adult Ending) -> The Wind Waker -> Phantom Hourglass
Ocarina of Time (Child Ending) -> Majora's Mask -> Twilight Princess

Okay, here's the long version:

BEGINNING (In every timeline)
-Creation of Hyrule (ALttP, OoT, TP)
-Hero of men seals monsters away with the Picori Blade and light force. (TMC)
-Link I born.
-Ezlo makes Minish Cap, then Vaati curses Ezlo and comes to Hyrule. (TMC)
-THE MINISH CAP
-Vaati is revived.
-Vatti terrorized Hyrule and kidnaps maidens. A strange young boy imprisons Vaati in the Four Sword. The people build a shrine in which to place the sword. (FS, FSA)
-Sages build Temple of Time and forge the Master Sword to protect the Sacred Realm and the Triforce. (ALttP, OoT, TWW, TP)
-Evil tribe seal a demon inside Majora's Mask. (MM)
-Ganondorf I born to Gerudo. Twinrova sisters Kotake and Koume raise Ganondorf. (OoT, OoA, OoS)
-Twili battle Hylia over Sacred Realm and the Triforce; the "fierce war." (ALttP, OoT, TP)
-Link I and Zelda I born. Link's mother takes him to Kokiri Forest. (OoT)
-Twili banished to the Twilight Realm by the Light Spirits of Hyrule. (TP)
-OCARINA OF TIME; the Imprisoning War

IMPRISONING WAR TIMLINE
-Link IIIa is born. He is possibly descended from Link II. (Who know's what Link and Zelda did between Ganon's sealing and the adult ending, amirite?) Zelda IIIa is born, possibly descended from Zelda II. The Triforce of Courage and Wisdom are passed down through those bloodlines, respectively.
-Ganon I causes tragedies in Hyrule from the Dark World, then sends Agahnim to "help" Hyrule. (ALttP)
-A LINK TO THE PAST [Since Link IIIa, Zelda IIIa, and Ganon I all possess a crest and are all present at the final battle, the Triforce is whole after Link IIIa defeats Ganon I.]
-Link IIIa gives the Triforce to the Royal Family of Hyrule.
-The king of Hyrule uses the Triforce to bring peace to Hyrule. To protect the Triforce, the king of Hyrule hides the Triforce of Courage in the Great Palace. (TAoL)
-King of Hyrule dies, giving the prince part of the Triforce. Because Zelda (IIIa?) refuses to tell the prince how to obtain the rest, a wizard places a sleeping spell on her. The prince regrets telling the wizard to place the spell, and decrees that every princess be named Zelda. (TAoL)
-Zelda IVa born, possibly descended from Zelda IIIa [who is possibly the Zelda in TAoL's backstory].
-Link IVa born, possibly descended from Link IIIa.
-Ganon is (in some way) revived. (ALttP) [The Japanese manual implies that ALttP's Ganon is TLoZ Ganon.]
-Ganon invades Hyrule, stealing the Triforce of Power and kidnapping Zelda IVa. Before her capture, she splits up the Triforce of Wizdom into 8 pieces and scatters them across Hyrule. Impa finds Link IVa and asks for his help. (TLoZ)
-THE LEGEND OF ZELDA
-The Triforce of Wisdom and Power are returned to the Royal Family of Hyrule.
-Link IVa turns 16, and the mark of the Triforce appears on the back of his hand. Impa explains what happened to a previous Zelda (possibly Zelda IIIa), and Link IIIa sets off to find the Triforce of Courage. (TAoL)
-THE ADVENTURE OF LINK
-Link IVa gives the complete Triforce to the Royal Family of Hyrule. The Triforce is then kept in Hyrule Castle.
-Link Va born, possibly descended from Link IVa.
-Zelda Va born, possibly descended from Zelda IIIa, IVa, or both.
-Twinrova sisters are revived.
-Triforce sends Link Va to Holodrum and Labrynna. (OoA, OoS)
-ORACLE OF AGES/ORACLE OF SEASONS
-Link Va leaves Hyrule to sail the seas. (LA, OoA, OoS)
-LINK'S AWAKENING [DX]
-A dark tribe builds a pyrimid, in which it places a magic trident possibly containing an evil spirit. This tribe is banished to the Dark World (possibly the Sacred Realm or the Twilight Realm). (FSA)
-Ganondorf II is born to the Gerudo.
-Link VIa and Zelda VIa are born, possibly descended from Link Va and Zelda Va.
-Link VIa and Zelda VIa become friends at an early age. (FS, FSA)
-FOUR SWORD
-Ganondorf II finds the magic trident, becomes Ganon II, and uses the magic mirror to creat Dark Links. (FSA)
-FOUR SWORDS ADVENTURES

SPLIT TIMELINE (CHILD)
-Link II arrives in his own time before he met Zelda II, as implied by Zelda looking through the window (as she was when she was spying on Ganondorf) and her shocked reaction (as she had when she first saw Link in the flesh). He warns Zelda and the king about Ganondorf's upcoming attack, so when it finally happens, the castle is ready for it. (My interpretation of OCARAIN OF TIME's ending)
-Months after warning the Royal Family of Ganondorf's threat, Link leaves Hyrule to search for Navi, but not before Zelda gives him the Ocarina of Time. (MAJORA'S MASK)
-MAJORA'S MASK
-Link II returns to Hyrule. (My interpretation of MAJORA'S MASK's ending)
-Since Link II didn't obtain the Spiritual Stones, it takes Ganondorf many years to obtain them on his own. After he finds them, he and his army attack Hyrule Castle, but the king has known for years that Ganondorf was a threat, therefore, he has had years to prepare for Ganondorf's attack. Ganondorf is arrested. He is sentenced to death, but he mysteriously obtains the Triforce of Power (probably because of the time travel laws of the Ocarina and MAJORA'S MASK and their similarities to OCARINA OF TIME's ending). He is sent to the Twilight Realm. (My interpretation of Aonuma's quote, TP)
-Link II dies. His spirit remains in Hyrule as the Hero's Spirit.
-Link IIIb and Zelda IIIb are born, possibly descended from Link II and Zelda II. II possibly passes down the Triforce of Courage/Wisdom through his/her family to IIIb.
-Ganondorf meets Zant, poses as a god, grants Zant power, frees Zant, and escapes from the Twilight Realm his self. (TP)
-TWILIGHT PRINCESS

SPLIT TIMELINE (ADULT)
-When Link II travels back in time to his childhood, the timeline splits. The Triforce of Courage stays behind and splits into 8 pieces and hides itself throughout Hyrule. (TWW)
-Zelda passes the Triforce of Wisdom down through her family.
-Ganondorf escapes the Sacred Realm, terrorizing Hyrule. The Hylia pray to the goddesses to help them, so they flood Hyrule. Many of the Hylia survive by climbing to the tops of mountains. (TWW)
-Link IIIc is born. He is not descended from Link II. Tetra, also known as Zelda IIIc, is born. She may be descended from Zelda II.
-THE WIND WAKER
-Link IIIc, Tetra (Zelda IIIc), and the pirates sail the seas. (PH)
-PHANTOM HOURGLASS

EDIT: I fixed some of the Roman numerals that I mistakenly screwed up in the first typing. Also, in order to avoid confusion on which Link is which in each timeline, I placed a, b, or c after most Roman numberals. (Example: So one doesn't confuse Link III of the Miyamoto Timeline with Link III of the Split Timeline Child and Link III of the Split Timeline Adult, the first is Link IIIa, the second is Link IIIb, and the third is Link IIIc.)

Edited by Vertiboy, 14 June 2008 - 04:39 PM.

[NM87]

I think this is a great theory, placing FSA at the end is the smartest thing anyone could do. I also place it at the end since it clears up inconsistencies with other games. I reason that FSA Ganondorf becomes the Ganon of old by wielding the Trident in which his soul inhabits FSA Ganondorf.

I only have three questions:

Why place LA after OOX instead of ALTTP? It really doesn't matter, but I'm curious.

Link II arrives in his own time before he met Zelda II.

I agree here as well, and just curious again why you think he was sent back to the time before. Personally, the ending of OT where they meet in the courtyard implies it.

Since Link II didn't obtain the Spiritual Stones, it takes Ganondorf many years to obtain them on his own. After he finds them, he and his army attack Hyrule Castle, but the king has known for years that Ganondorf was a threat, therefore, he has had years to prepare for Ganondorf's attack.

I am not sure that Ganondorf searched for the stones, TP implies that he attacked Hyrule Castle shortly after Link returned to Hyrule. Besides, a "hero" was known to exist back then. This doesn't change anything in the timeline, but I don't think Ganondorf looked for the stones.

[MikePetersSucks]

During this time, Link and Zelda obtain the Triforce of Courage and Wisdom, respectively, probably because of MAJORA'S MASK time travel laws. (My interpretation of OCARAIN OF TIME's ending)

I'm sorry, can you explain this part?

Link II arrives in his own time before he met Zelda II.

Impossible.

He is sentenced to death, but he mysteriously obtains the Triforce of Power

By the very nature of the Triforce, he must have gotten it when Link and Zelda got theirs, AKA before Majora's Mask.

-Link II dies. His spirit remains in Hyrule as the Hero's Spirit.

I heavily disagree.

Aside from that, the timeline is WORKABLE, though you know I disagree with it, and I don't like your three-ended timeline especially.

I am not sure that Ganondorf searched for the stones, TP implies that he attacked Hyrule Castle shortly after Link returned to Hyrule. Besides, a "hero" was known to exist back then. This doesn't change anything in the timeline, but I don't think Ganondorf looked for the stones.

I agree. He'd probably just try and smash the Temple of Time.

[Showsni]

He is already searching for the stones in OoT, remember; if Link hadn't got involved in collecting them for him, I see no reason for him to stop his slow plan of starving the Gorons into submission, cursing the Deku Tree and making Jabu-Jabu grumpy. That is, assuming this timeline, where Link returns before he starting collecting stones.

[Jumbie]

Great timeline, Vertiboy! I agree almost completely, except that I would place LoZ+AoL after FSA.

[Ize]

What Jumbie said, that's a great timeline except for theplacement of FSA after LoZ and LA after OoX instead of after ALttP.
And why did you use Link III for ALttP AND LoZ? They should be different Links, or maybe I'm reading it wrog. The whole 'explanation' of the timeline is kind of confusing and nor very ordered and clear, but I like the scheme in your sig.

However I still don't get why it's so impossible to join the IW timeline and Aunuma's Child timeline. Like so:

MC - OoT(child) - MM - TP - IW(the imp. war) - ALttP - ......and so on.

This creates no big conflict and doesn't require a third timeline (what you call the IW timeline).

Edited by Ize, 10 June 2008 - 06:36 PM.

[NM87]

However I still don't get why it's so impossible to join the IW timeline and Aunuma's Child timeline. Like so:

MC - OoT(child) - MM - TP - IW(the imp. war) - ALttP - ......and so on.

This creates no big conflict and doesn't require a third timeline (what you call the IW timeline).

I agree yet again. For some reason, there are invisible inconsistencies that only others are able to see. For example, TP supposedly disturbing the Sacred Realm even though there has never been anything concrete pointing to this.

He is already searching for the stones in OoT, remember; if Link hadn't got involved in collecting them for him, I see no reason for him to stop his slow plan of starving the Gorons into submission, cursing the Deku Tree and making Jabu-Jabu grumpy. That is, assuming this timeline, where Link returns before he starting collecting stones.

That's why the "hero" (OOT Link) saves the day. He is sent back to the time before he met Zelda, therefore back to his OWN original time where he never had gotten involved. Ganondorf gives up searching because he just can not obtain the stones.

[Vertiboy]

Why place LA after OOX instead of ALTTP? It really doesn't matter, but I'm curious.

I just think that Capcom intended to retcon LA's placement from ALttP to the end of the Oracles. I think that it fits a little better, too, as we actually see Link leave Hyrule at the end of a linked game.

I agree here as well, and just curious again why you think he was sent back to the time before. Personally, the ending of OT where they meet in the courtyard implies it.

I agree that it was Zelda's reaction that implies he arrived before he met her. I know that not everyone agrees with that, though.

I am not sure that Ganondorf searched for the stones, TP implies that he attacked Hyrule Castle shortly after Link returned to Hyrule. Besides, a "hero" was known to exist back then. This doesn't change anything in the timeline, but I don't think Ganondorf looked for the stones.

If I am correct, Aonuma said that the execution scene takes place a few years after the child ending of Ocarina of Time. I guess it could be possible that Ganondorf went ahead and attacked Hyrule Castle anyway, just like he did in Ocarina of Time, not too long after Link met Zelda. He could have just been in prison for all those years in between. That was just an idea that I had.

I'm sorry, can you explain this part?

I think that the time travel laws of MM could possibly apply to OoT's ending. In MM lets say that Link gets the Hero's Bow on Day 3. If Link were to play the Ocarina, he would arrive on Day 1 with the bow, even though he never had it before. Here's another situation: when Deku Link takes the Ocarina from Skull Kid, he never has it again, no matter how many other 3-day cycles he goes to the top of the Clock Tower.

Here's a problem with this, though. Kafei doesn't keep Anju's pendant, no matter how many times Link travels back in time. Link never keeps his Rupees in his pocket no matter how many times he travels back in time. The time travel laws of MM are inconsistent, which is why I say that it could possibly be MM time travel logic that allows Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf to keep their crests. It was just an explanation within the canon that I thought could be possible.

The truth is, though, that there is probably no explanation within the canon, and they retain their crest because Aonuma and the rest of the crew thought that it would make a good story if the crest were involved in TP.

Impossible.

The only thing that I've found in OoT's ending that would suggest that Link arrived in his time after he met Zelda is the fact that the Door of Time is open. If Link arrived after meeting Zelda, though, how would he get into Hyrule Castle to talk to Zelda? The guards don't let anyone in, and Link can't sneak in (without Action Replay ). No matter when Link arrives in his time, there will be some kind of plot hole.

Besides, in a video game universe, nothing is impossible.

Aside from that, the timeline is WORKABLE, though you know I disagree with it, and I don't like your three-ended timeline especially.

I figured that some people might not like the 3-ended timeline. I honestly believe, though, that when making MM, TWW, TP, and PH, the only previous game that Aonuma counted as part of the "Split Timeline" canon is OoT. Not everyone agrees, and I understand why. What I don't understand is why people think that the time has to be a straight line or only split in two directions and all of that. It's obvious that that amount of thought didn't go into overall timeline details in the first place, so why should we complicate it in that sense? That's just my opinion, though.

And why did you use Link III for ALttP AND LoZ? They should be different Links, or maybe I'm reading it wrog. The whole 'explanation' of the timeline is kind of confusing and nor very ordered and clear, but I like the scheme in your sig.

Yeah, I messed up. I fixed it now, but just so everyone knows, I do not think that ALttP Link and TLoZ/TAoL Link are the same.

However I still don't get why it's so impossible to join the IW timeline and Aunuma's Child timeline. Like so:

MC - OoT(child) - MM - TP - IW(the imp. war) - ALttP - ......and so on.

This creates no big conflict and doesn't require a third timeline (what you call the IW timeline).

I would do that, but I still think, after all of the Zelda games that have been released, that OoT is the Imprisoning War. Perhaps it is not the IW anymore, but I'm not convinced yet.

[MikePetersSucks]

I think that the time travel laws of MM could possibly apply to OoT's ending. In MM lets say that Link gets the Hero's Bow on Day 3. If Link were to play the Ocarina, he would arrive on Day 1 with the bow, even though he never had it before. Here's another situation: when Deku Link takes the Ocarina from Skull Kid, he never has it again, no matter how many other 3-day cycles he goes to the top of the Clock Tower.

Here's a problem with this, though. Kafei doesn't keep Anju's pendant, no matter how many times Link travels back in time. Link never keeps his Rupees in his pocket no matter how many times he travels back in time. The time travel laws of MM are inconsistent, which is why I say that it could possibly be MM time travel logic that allows Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf to keep their crests. It was just an explanation within the canon that I thought could be possible.

The truth is, though, that there is probably no explanation within the canon, and they retain their crest because Aonuma and the rest of the crew thought that it would make a good story if the crest were involved in TP.

I simply figured that Link was travelling bodily in MM, when in OOT it is clearly a traveling of spirit. The Triforce is probably split because it was, well, disturbed by child Link's escapades.

The only thing that I've found in OoT's ending that would suggest that Link arrived in his time after he met Zelda is the fact that the Door of Time is open. If Link arrived after meeting Zelda, though, how would he get into Hyrule Castle to talk to Zelda? The guards don't let anyone in, and Link can't sneak in (without Action Replay tongue.gif). No matter when Link arrives in his time, there will be some kind of plot hole.

Besides, in a video game universe, nothing is impossible.

So, "Game mechanics, waaah"? Please.

I figured that some people might not like the 3-ended timeline. I honestly believe, though, that when making MM, TWW, TP, and PH, the only previous game that Aonuma counted as part of the "Split Timeline" canon is OoT. Not everyone agrees, and I understand why. What I don't understand is why people think that the time has to be a straight line or only split in two directions and all of that. It's obvious that that amount of thought didn't go into overall timeline details in the first place, so why should we complicate it in that sense? That's just my opinion, though.

I only disagree with it because, if there's gonna be a third prong in a timeline, I'd like an in-universe metaphysical cause for it, like OOT's ending.

[NM87]

So, "Game mechanics, waaah"? Please.

The final scene is enough to prove it was the time before meeting Zelda. Or does Zelda always greet Link with a surprise.

[Arturo]

The Door of Time is open and Link has the Triforce of Courage, and can have the Hylian Shield. That's enough to prove it was after meeting Zelda, and after opening the Door.

[FDL]

I agree with what Arturo and MPS are saying here. I'd also like to add that it is acknowledged by Zelda herself that Link will have to lay the Master Sword to rest and shut the Door of Time when he returns to the past. So it is not just "game mechanics" that cause the DoT to be open.

[Vertiboy]

I guess I never thought of all that. Perhaps the writers intended for Link to arrive after he met Zelda. After all, she could just have a shocked reaction because she sees the crest glowing on his hand.

That is to say if the writers even thought that far in the first place.

I simply figured that Link was travelling bodily in MM, when in OOT it is clearly a traveling of spirit.

I've always thought that MM time travel was more like Groundhog's Day, in the sense that he is traveling in spirit, but he retains the memories of the past cycles. I mean, we don't see multiple Links meeting at the door of the Clock Tower on Day 1 at 6:00 A.M. and then running in their own directions. It's just a game, though, so the writers probably didn't put too much thought into it.

[Showsni]

But he also retains items in MM, except those we see getting "lost" in the time streams... Of course, time travel is always a tricky subject. (When you play the Inverted Song of Time, does everyone else hear Link speak twice as fast as normal?)

[CID Farwin]

(When you play the Inverted Song of Time, does everyone else hear Link speak twice as fast as normal?)

Link doesn't speak, so problem solved

[Jumbie]

I agree that it was Zelda's reaction that implies he arrived before he met her. I know that not everyone agrees with that, though.

I share that idea. But an objection I recently saw went as follows: Would Zelda ever trust Link when he doesn't bring the trademarks from her prophetic dream - the fairy and the green stone? Then again, he would in any case have the Kokiri Emerald already, so that's not a valid objection.

The only thing that I've found in OoT's ending that would suggest that Link arrived in his time after he met Zelda is the fact that the Door of Time is open.

That can be dismissed, it remains gameplay mechanics no matter which way you twist it:
1. Link needs a way out. And no, not the warp songs! If they showed him playing a warp song in the ending, then which one should they have picked? To the lake, to the Woods? Ridiculous. For the ending's sake, he needs to be able to walk straight out, inconsistency or not. Nobody says there cannot be certain mechanics built into the Temple of Time that will automatically open the door when someone needs out from the Master Sword's side.
2. There doesn't even exist a model of the Master Sword chamber with the Door closed, so there was no other choice but to show it open. If one argued that in that case they should have just altered the model accordingly - then you haven't noticed how lazy Nintendo are about changing near identical models.
(Btw, those points are of course not aimed at Vertiboy.)

I figured that some people might not like the 3-ended timeline. I honestly believe, though, that when making MM, TWW, TP, and PH, the only previous game that Aonuma counted as part of the "Split Timeline" canon is OoT. Not everyone agrees, and I understand why. What I don't understand is why people think that the time has to be a straight line or only split in two directions and all of that. It's obvious that that amount of thought didn't go into overall timeline details in the first place, so why should we complicate it in that sense? That's just my opinion, though.

Exactly my thoughts!^^

I guess I never thought of all that. Perhaps the writers intended for Link to arrive after he met Zelda. After all, she could just have a shocked reaction because she sees the crest glowing on his hand.

That is to say if the writers even thought that far in the first place.

I'm sure they did. It's very important to look at narrative, too, which the Zelda devs care about more than including evidence.
To think that Link meets Zelda for the very first time again is clearly the most atmospheric situation, as in, that's the event that will amaze players most. (Sure, half of the players didn't take it that way, but still the fact remains that Link re-visiting her would convey no "ohh!" effect at all.) I find it very likely that the devs intended that courtyard scene to make us go, "Oh, how ironic!". There wouldn't be anything ironic if Link came back to her, it'd just be the usual course that we once expected to happen until after the third dungeon.

Also, Aonuma saying that Link's visit to Zelda in the end changed the course of events sounds like Zelda was still spying on Ganondorf in the ending scene. At any rate, the royal guard alone isn't that interesting for her to constantly be staring into that window...

I think that the time travel laws of MM could possibly apply to OoT's ending. In MM lets say that Link gets the Hero's Bow on Day 3. If Link were to play the Ocarina, he would arrive on Day 1 with the bow, even though he never had it before. Here's another situation: when Deku Link takes the Ocarina from Skull Kid, he never has it again, no matter how many other 3-day cycles he goes to the top of the Clock Tower.

That's right. Arturo and I perfectly explained why in our split timeline article at ZL. Let me quote:

"In OoT, Link is forced to sleep for seven years until he is old enough to be the Hero of Time, so to make up for this unnatural sacrifice, destiny "saves" his original past timeline and simultaneously "opens" a new future timeline. In MM, however, Link willingly asks the Goddess of Time to let him rewind the flow of time as a last escape, creating a time loop of three days in the act. Just like in the movie "Groundhog Day".

Link's primary objective in MM is to collect the masks of the Four Giants, so whenever he rewinds time back to Day One, each major item he has found stays right in his pockets, meaning that the respective item of the new cycle is exactly the same one that Link brings from the old cycle. All it has done is change its place, because all the events in the old cycle have been rewound, with Link and Tatl as the only ones who have kept their memory. That's why there has always been only one single timeline in Termina - all Link ever did was rewind the flow of time."

Here's a problem with this, though. Kafei doesn't keep Anju's pendant, no matter how many times Link travels back in time. Link never keeps his Rupees in his pocket no matter how many times he travels back in time.

No inconsistencies here. Kafei cannot keep the pendant because he doesn't travel back in time. No one does except Link and Tatl.
And the rupees and ammo Link had better lose, because since those items exist in myriads, how would the laws decide where in Termina to take them from upon Link's arrival at a new day? (Sorry, that one might be a bit tricky to comprehend...)

The truth is, though, that there is probably no explanation within the canon, and they retain their crest because Aonuma and the rest of the crew thought that it would make a good story if the crest were involved in TP.

Here's my explanation: Adult Link was marked (spiritually) as the bearer of the Triforce of Courage. That means that in the new timeline, Link is still designated as the bearer of the ToC, which automatically grants him the ToC of that timeline. This, naturally, disrupts the Triforce. However, we see that young Zelda doesn't have her piece yet, and Ganondorf only gets his via the divine prank years later. So this means that they have yet to prove their worth to the goddesses before they will be chosen (this is no fanfic, it's stated in TWW). Possibly Zelda got chosen only after working out a plan to arrest Ganondorf with the mirror sages, and Ganondorf got chosen only after he had displayed an unshattering will to survive (to remain "in power").

Edited by Jumbie, 11 June 2008 - 11:01 PM.

[NM87]

The Door of Time is open and Link has the Triforce of Courage, and can have the Hylian Shield. That's enough to prove it was after meeting Zelda, and after opening the Door.

So?

[Vertiboy]

Link keeps the Mirror Shield after traveling back in time with the Ocarina. Why wouldn't he keep the Hylian Shield after Zelda sends him back in time with the Ocarina?

Also, is it my imagination, or did Zelda have the crest on the back of her hand during the flashback in MM?

Edited by Vertiboy, 12 June 2008 - 01:21 AM.

[Arturo]

He doesn't keep the Mirror Shield. If you had paid attention, for some strange reason, none of the weapons Link gets as an adult can be used by child Link, except for the magic spells (and the bottles, but this is just a little gameplay mechanic). Isn't it because Child Link doesn't have those?

And moreover, having the Door of Time open is not just because of those lazy developers. It's not a gameplay mechanic. It's canon:

You must lay the Master Sword to
rest and close the Door of Time...

We know of no other way to open the Door of Time, so saying it could be open although it shouldn't, is just making up things unnecessarily.
And he could have exited using the Prelude of Light, no need to go to any forests ¬¬

[Raien]

We know of no other way to open the Door of Time, so saying it could be open although it shouldn't, is just making up things unnecessarily.

But then again, this argument leads to another inconsistency; Zelda is in Hyrule Castle Garden, when she had escaped the castle after Ganondorf's forces stormed it. In which case we have to believe that Link waited days or weeks for Zelda to return and talk to her, which I don't think was ever meant in the game. And I don't see what Link and Zelda's conversation could achieve if Ganondorf had already been foiled by that point, considering that Aonuma emphasised the conversation as an active part in the continuity to TP.

As I see it, a theorist's perspective on this ultimately depends on how the story progresses in TP. If they believe Ganondorf was foiled and did not reach the Sacred Realm, then returning Link to an earlier point to foil the attack on Hyrule Castle makes more sense. If they believe Ganondorf got into the Sacred Realm and took the Triforce of Power, then Link would have to be returned to a point after the Sacred Realm was opened.

Edited by Raian, 12 June 2008 - 07:44 AM.

[FDL]

Here's my explanation: Adult Link was marked (spiritually) as the bearer of the Triforce of Courage. That means that in the new timeline, Link is still designated as the bearer of the ToC, which automatically grants him the ToC of that timeline. This, naturally, disrupts the Triforce. However, we see that young Zelda doesn't have her piece yet, and Ganondorf only gets his via the divine prank years later. So this means that they have yet to prove their worth to the goddesses before they will be chosen (this is no fanfic, it's stated in TWW). Possibly Zelda got chosen only after working out a plan to arrest Ganondorf with the mirror sages, and Ganondorf got chosen only after he had displayed an unshattering will to survive (to remain "in power").

Difference is, in TWW Link has the power of the ToC bestowed upon him after he's already obtained it. That's somewhat different than it being bestowed upon Zelda and Ganondorf before they even have a piece. Arturo has covered the rest of things I disagree with in this theory so I won't get into them but it's still a pretty well thought-out one even if I disagree.

But then again, this argument leads to another inconsistency; Zelda is in Hyrule Castle Garden, when she had escaped the castle after Ganondorf's forces stormed it. In which case we have to believe that Link waited days or weeks for Zelda to return and talk to her, which I don't think was ever meant in the game. And I don't see what Link and Zelda's conversation could achieve if Ganondorf had already been foiled by that point, considering that Aonuma emphasised the conversation as an active part in the continuity to TP.

A fair point, but you have to consider the fact that people can move around. While it's a little less "clean" to say Zelda returned to the castle after her escape, it's a reasonable explanation for why she's there. And if you believe Link went back to a time before he even met Zelda you have to explain...

1) Why Link is told to lay the Master Sword to rest and close the Door of Time.
2) Why Link has the Triforce of Courage and the Hylian Shield.
3) Why Ganondorf mocks the Twili for being stopped in their attempt to obtain the Triforce if he never did.
4) How Link is revered as a legendary hero by Gorons, Renaldo, Impaz, Zoras, and other various people of Hyrule over a hundred years after OoT and MM.

....among other things.

[NM87]

He doesn't keep the Mirror Shield. If you had paid attention, for some strange reason, none of the weapons Link gets as an adult can be used by child Link, except for the magic spells (and the bottles, but this is just a little gameplay mechanic). Isn't it because Child Link doesn't have those?

Adult Link has Child Link's weapons although he can't use them. Its not because adults can not use slingshots and boomerangs, its because the two aren't meant to use the others weapons. The argument is inconsistent because you can't say that they are grayed out for Child Link because he doesn't have them and then grayed out in the same way for Adult Link because he just can't use them.

We know of no other way to open the Door of Time, so saying it could be open although it shouldn't, is just making up things unnecessarily.

The bigger picture of the ending seems to imply it was before meeting Zelda. She greets him the same way she did when they had first met, and she was watching Ganondorf pledge allegiance to the King at that time. So its a fact that she was again watching Ganondorf pledge allegiance at the end of OOT. If Ganondorf was pledging allegiance then it had to before he attacked.

This way, Link was indeed sent back to a time the way he was supposed to be and not involved in the mess of Zelda. Regardless of the Door of Time being open, in which Zelda being in the courtyard makes inconsistent, and regardless of the Triforce on Link’s hand, in which it is not there in MM.

[MikePetersSucks]

I guess I never thought of all that. Perhaps the writers intended for Link to arrive after he met Zelda. After all, she could just have a shocked reaction because she sees the crest glowing on his hand.

And also because she might not have been expecting to see him. I know I don't tend to greet people with a stoic calm when they bust into my house to greet me.

I've always thought that MM time travel was more like Groundhog's Day, in the sense that he is traveling in spirit, but he retains the memories of the past cycles. I mean, we don't see multiple Links meeting at the door of the Clock Tower on Day 1 at 6:00 A.M. and then running in their own directions. It's just a game, though, so the writers probably didn't put too much thought into it.

My personal theory is that he makes a new split timeline every time in MM, and then after defeating Majora, they all merge into a "New Day" timeline with the best from all of them.

Here's my explanation: Adult Link was marked (spiritually) as the bearer of the Triforce of Courage. That means that in the new timeline, Link is still designated as the bearer of the ToC, which automatically grants him the ToC of that timeline. This, naturally, disrupts the Triforce. However, we see that young Zelda doesn't have her piece yet, and Ganondorf only gets his via the divine prank years later. So this means that they have yet to prove their worth to the goddesses before they will be chosen (this is no fanfic, it's stated in TWW). Possibly Zelda got chosen only after working out a plan to arrest Ganondorf with the mirror sages, and Ganondorf got chosen only after he had displayed an unshattering will to survive (to remain "in power").

Citation Needed.

But then again, this argument leads to another inconsistency; Zelda is in Hyrule Castle Garden, when she had escaped the castle after Ganondorf's forces stormed it. In which case we have to believe that Link waited days or weeks for Zelda to return and talk to her, which I don't think was ever meant in the game.

Or hours. And the castle seems perfectly fine after that first return trip you make for gameplay, so I don't see what the problem is.

And I don't see what Link and Zelda's conversation could achieve if Ganondorf had already been foiled by that point, considering that Aonuma emphasised the conversation as an active part in the continuity to TP.

Who said he was foiled? Ganondorf chased after Zelda, probably lost them, without him there to lead them, the monsters were probably defeated. There's no problem here, you guys.

Adult Link has Child Link's weapons although he can't use them. Its not because adults can not use slingshots and boomerangs, its because the two aren't meant to use the others weapons. The argument is inconsistent because you can't say that they are grayed out for Child Link because he doesn't have them and then grayed out in the same way for Adult Link because he just can't use them.

That's a pretty cheesy way to argue Gameplay Mechanic. They're grayed out because when he goes back in time, his consciousness "Wakes up" seven years earlier. Going forward in time merely puts him into a seven year sleep.

The bigger picture of the ending seems to imply it was before meeting Zelda. She greets him the same way she did when they had first met,

And every other time they met,

and she was watching Ganondorf pledge allegiance to the King at that time.

Pics or it didn't happen.

regardless of the Triforce on Link’s hand, in which it is not there in MM.

Probably because there's no other piece to resonate with.

[Vertiboy]

Perhaps exactly when Link arrived may not have mattered to the writers of OoT and TP. There are inconsistencies either way, and most of the theories I've heard work either way.

Then again, whether they had an intent or not, it is still fun to discuss.

[NM87]

That's a pretty cheesy way to argue Gameplay Mechanic. They're grayed out because when he goes back in time, his consciousness "Wakes up" seven years earlier. Going forward in time merely puts him into a seven year sleep.

Did you just say cheesy? You loose this argument and all arguments hereafter. Cheesy?

Besides, your reply has nothing to do with me saying “grayed out”. It is still perfectly fine to say the two Links weren’t meant to use the others weapons. If they could, Child Link could go to the adult temples.

And every other time they met,
Pics or it didn't happen.

You don’t get it. At the end of OOT she greets Link the same way she greeted him the first time she met him in the beginning of OOT. She turns, gasps, covers her mouth etc.. during that time, she was looking a Ganondorf through the window. So if that event is happening again the same way it did the first time, then she was looking at Ganondorf through the window. Its not a solid fact, but it makes sense considering.

Probably because there's no other piece to resonate with.

The crest can glow without another Triforce to resonate with.

[Vertiboy]

To start another discussion, I think that LA goes directly after the Oracle games because they fit the requirements that the LA manual gives, and the end helps go right up to the Oracle games moreso than ALttP's ending. Oracle Link kills Ganon. He is more than qualified to be LA Link. As for those of you who don't think that the linked Oracle ending meant anything, have you ever actually compared the two boats from the two games side by side?



I mean, come on...

The Oracles' ending could possibly be a mere "reference" to LA's introduction, but I doubt that claim myself.

[MikePetersSucks]

Did you just say cheesy? You loose this argument and all arguments hereafter. Cheesy?

Oh please, other people have said worse words. You, being one of them.

You don’t get it. At the end of OOT she greets Link the same way she greeted him the first time she met him in the beginning of OOT. She turns, gasps, covers her mouth etc.. during that time, she was looking a Ganondorf through the window. So if that event is happening again the same way it did the first time, then she was looking at Ganondorf through the window. Its not a solid fact, but it makes sense considering.

Yea, except for everything supporting it, I can think of something that contradicts it. Zelda's pretty much the same every time you meet her there. And, IMO, Zelda's a peeping tom who does that shit all the time.

The crest can glow without another Triforce to resonate with.

They glow when they resonate or when they're being used. Neither of those conditions are met in MM.

and the boats have different masts, so you fail. [/assholejackassanalnitpick]

[SOAP]

Not that I think LA follows Oracles but how are the masts different? One has the the sails folded up and the other doesn't. I mean would you have your sails open during a storm? No you wouldn't. You fail.

Edited by SOAP, 13 June 2008 - 05:47 AM.

[Fyxe]

I've said this before, but it's not like the Oracles ever reuses graphics from LA at all. Like, ever. The ship looking similar is like, totally the only thing in the whole game. Everything else is new. Thus it must be purposeful, and not just them simply reusing graphics, because if they were reusing graphics, surely they'd do it at other moments, right?

...OH WAIT.

[NM87]

Yea, except for everything supporting it, I can think of something that contradicts it. Zelda's pretty much the same every time you meet her there. And, IMO, Zelda's a peeping tom who does that shit all the time.

She isn't the same every time you meet her, she is standing around in the courtyard. Its not like Link comes to see Zelda and every time she has eyes wide open shrieking a him. She doesn’t know Link anymore since he was sent back to the time before meeting her.

The crest can glow without another Triforce to resonate with.

In TP it glows when Link returns from the Forest temple. It wasn't being used or resonating with another piece. Its perfectly fine for a piece to just glow.

About LA and OOX, I will say it again: LOOK AT THE BIGGER PICTURE. OOX ends with Link on a boat while LA begins with Link on a boat. They look similar enough to be the same one. If you place OOX after ALTTP, then there is a reason Ganon is revived with the Trident, as opposed to placing it after LOZ where he didn’t have the Trident.

oh my goodness the door of tyme!! its open
no no, the mast is different, definitely made by a different mast company

I don't personally place OOX after ALTTP, but if one were to, I don't see a problem. Nothing is ever going to seem constant in Zelda because its a vieo game.

...and you know what, since I love trouble I'll say this: If OOT was the IW, and ALTP features the same Ganon directly, placing OOX after ALTTP makes sense because Ganon is called a Gerudo King in OOX! But wait...how are Koume and Kotake still alive if they had died in OOT's adult ending? This is some complicated shit.

(In no way is any of this suppoerted by NM87 co.)