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Holodrum and Labrynna-A picture that will make you think


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#1 Mourngriever

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 12:48 PM

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Now i am not implying this is canon at all, but there are some very strange similarities between the lands.

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Here is Holodrum, ive included this map as it shows the borders of the land. Now i know the map is heavily based off of BS Zeldas map (contrary to the original NES Zelda which has a bit more of the Eastern Map. BS Zelda fits closer to ALTTP) but there is arguably some similarities.

Now here is Labrynna
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Again there is some arguable close similarities. I wonder if this is mere coincidence. Thoughts?

#2 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 05:47 PM

I don't see it.

#3 Arturo

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 06:02 PM

I certainly see it. I don't think there's a real connection, but I wouldn't be too surprised if there was because, after all, the Oracles were going to be a remake of LoZ and AoL

#4 Jumbie

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 06:13 PM

This thread deserves attention. After all, your findings are something that I and others before me have also independently concluded.

But I refrained from posting it here because I knew it wouldn't be taken seriously by anyone except a handful of geography lovers.
Anyway, you did so, and I'm quite pleased about that.

Well then, let me show you my detailed juxtaposition of the various places in the three games.

Holodrum:
Attached File  holodrum.png   303.62K   44 downloadsAttached File  holodrumhyrule.png   9.39K   37 downloads

(1) Horon Village => Old Kasuto:
Both maps have a town here. Horon could've been renamed Kasuto when the country joined Hyrule.

(2) Samasa Desert => a desert:
Here both maps show a large desert next to the sea.

(3) Woods of Winter => a forest:
Woods can go back or grow denser over time - here they did the latter.

(4) Sunken City => a lake:
Holodrum's biggest lake houses Sunken City, which is possibly still down there by the time of AoL.

(5) Mount Cucco => tunnel to New Kasuto:
One of the many caves in Holodrum's mountains broke through on the rear end. The grove behind the mountains, where New Kasuto will be, are not shown on OoS' map.

(6) a river => a river:
Both maps have a river running west from the great lake.

(7) Eyeglass Lake => a river:
First the river ends in the swamp, later it takes its way through Eyeglass Lake, through the Maku Tree's glade, and just east of Horon/Kasuto into the sea. The sandy path from the cemetery to the bridge (AoL map) may once have been part of the river bed. Thus, the near bridge was in Holodrum the land mass between river and Eyeglass Lake.

(8) western coast => Path of Fire:
Later the pirate ship is gone, but the spooky air remains through the Moa ghosts. In Holodrum the path south of the cemetery was blocked at the western border, but later it runs on to the Valley of Death.

(9) graveyard => graveyard:
Everything matches: north of both cemeteries is the swamp, east is a road running to the river. The Lizalfos' canyon west of the graveyard was not accessible yet in Holodrum.

(10) Spool Swamp => a swamp:
Though not always as big as in AoL, the swamp has been there all the time. In the east it's flanked by the Holodrum Plains which later become part of a forest.

(11) Lost Woods => a swamp:
Later these so-called Lost Woods connect to the swamp which thereby expands up to the mountains.

(12) mountain range => mountain range:
Not much of a difference. What became of Holodrum's Goron Tribe and the Temple of Seasons? Perhaps they still exist unseen during AoL.


Labrynna:
Attached File  labrynna.png   304.51K   39 downloadsAttached File  labrynnahyrule.png   10.67K   27 downloads

(1) Crescent Island => an island:
The prerequisite for Labrynna's location is an island south of the mainland, just like the one in AoL with the Island Temple on it. And it even has the shape of a crescent. The temple is at the same place as the Tokay Rock in OoA. The Tokay themselves might have degenerated into Lizalfos and left for the canyon near Holodrum.

(2) Yoll Graveyard => royal graveyard:
Already big in Labrynna, it was enlarged even more when the great king was buried. The Forest of Time gave way to more graves.

(3) southern shore => southern shore:
By the time of AoL, rows of tombstones are reaching till the southern shore.

(4) a river => a river:
First this river took its time to reach the sea. Later a bay originated where the Black Tower used to be. The bridge north of the tower is still in use during AoL.

(5) Rolling Ridge => a ridge:
Somehow the ridge elongated south to the coast where once was Lynna City. In the process, the glade of the Maku Tree disappeared.

(6) Lynna City => coast:
The city vanished completely. It wasn't that big, after all.

(7) Nuun Highlands => southern forest:
Plain and simple, some woods sprang forth.

(8) Symmetry Village => northern forest:
Seems like too many trees have grown in the village. The only house remaining in AoL belongs to Bagu, the strongest man in Hyrule.

(9) another river => path through the woods:
Before Talus River joined it, this river was the original one flowing into the sea. Later on, its upper bed was drained and became a path through the forest.

(10) Talus River => a river:
The upper part of the river from (4), going over the hills.

(11) Fairies' Woods => plains:
Never really dense, these woods became a grassland with some trees remaining in the east.

(12) Black Tower => Great Bay:
Presumably, the Black Tower was torn down, and its base was flooded by the river running from the hills, broadening it to a bay.

(13) Zora Village => Town of Saria:
The Venice-like town of Saria could be have its foundations on the Zora Village that is down in the sea strait. Perhaps the humans intended to name their town after the legendary Zora sage - and got the names wrong.

(14) Zora Sea => foot of Death Mountain:
More land showed up due to a retreat of the sea. To the south, the Death Mountain foothills extend, as seen in the in-game Labrynna map that Mourngriever posted.

(15) southern shore => long bridge:
From the foot of Death Mountain to the southern shore, a long bridge was built across the Sea of Storms. The stormy waters could explain why the bridge is partially broken in AoL.


As for whether the developers intended it or not - no telling. But I wouldn't mind either way, it's been an integral part of my fanon for a good while.^^
It's certainly a lot more interesting than saying, "We don't know where the Oracles countries are located", and, "Northern Hyrule from AoL never made a reappearance".

#5 CID Farwin

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 06:36 PM

:blink:

I...see it!

WHOAH!

#6 Reflectionist

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 12:15 AM

Nice research! This may get me interested in Zelda again, very well done.

#7 Fyxe

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 04:44 AM

This topic makes me cry endless tears and wish death upon those who do not understand how videogames are made. This is 'fanon' only, I'm afraid. Recognising vaguely similar visual patterns does not mean diddly squat. @.@

Plus it's already been mentioned that Holodrum was based more on the original Zelda's map, which is fairly plain for anyone to see.

#8 Masamune

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 06:41 AM

Even Fanon is worth discussing. It's not close enough to be meaningful, but I'd love see Holodrum, Labrynna, and Old Hyrule reworked into the TAoL map. Just for kicks.

#9 Mourngriever

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 11:32 AM

I never said it was anything more than a talking point as i said that i knew that Holodrum was based on the original Zelda map (as it was most likely the game that was LOZ's remake) But regardless, the similarities are very interesting.

#10 Fyxe

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 11:47 AM

Even Fanon is worth discussing.

I suppose that's where we differ. XP

#11 Jumbie

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 12:51 PM

Even Fanon is worth discussing.

I suppose that's where we differ. XP

Oh yes we do! And that's why you could spare yourself the effort of commenting in a geography thread, in case you never noticed it before... >_>
This topic is not for you to cry, but for you to ignore it. As simple as that.

Fanon may be discussed, and as there's no designated forum for it, it can only be done in Storyline. As I've said a thousand times before.

I'd love see Holodrum, Labrynna, and Old Hyrule reworked into the TAoL map. Just for kicks.

I'm pretty sure that will be done someday^^

Edited by Jumbie, 02 April 2008 - 12:51 PM.


#12 Fyxe

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 01:29 PM

Fanon may be discussed, and as there's no designated forum for it, it can only be done in Storyline. As I've said a thousand times before.

Sorry to lapse into British stereotypical exclaimations, but what the bloody hell do you think Zelda General is for then? @.@

Or, y'know, Showcase. What with it being fan-made and all.

#13 Crazy Penguin

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 08:00 PM

after all, the Oracles were going to be a remake of LoZ and AoL


Nope. There were going to be three games, two brand new and one a remake of Legend of Zelda.

I have yet to find a reliable source that they ever intended to do a remake of Adventure of Link. How would that even WORK?

#14 Impossible

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 08:02 PM

That was an interesting post, Jumbie, but you shouldn't just assume that the Oracles are before AoL. There are plenty of reasons for them to be later, too.

#15 Mourngriever

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 08:02 AM

As we now no Koholint (though a dream) is said to be 'Southern' we are getting a few more pieces of the Zelda atlas. Regardless of whether Holodrum and Labrynna are conciously West and East Hyrule or not, id love to see some sort of map, or more proof on where these other lands are.

Another question, as BS Zeldas map was changed from the original NES, what do we consider Canon. Either or both. As im sure many have noticed, BS Zelda has the right of the map cut off, but in fact looks closer to ALTTPs. Do we see more of the East of 'South Hyrule' in the NES game? Or do we not consider the map of BS Zelda anything special?

#16 Duke Serkol

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 08:25 AM

I (and of all people I should know ;)) personally, do not consider the maps from BS Zelda to be canon. All the more since there's two of them.
http://www.bszelda.z...s.net/map.shtml
http://www.bszelda.z...net/m2map.shtml
I remember a time many, many years ago, when I considered the idea that the transformation of Lake Hylia into a gulf could imply a later placement. How silly :lol:

But I'm interested in your observations: what is it in (either of) these maps that reminds you of ALttP?


About Koholint, I keep forgetting to ask Jumbie, but could it be southern really just meant tropical?

#17 Masamune

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 12:14 PM

Given that Koholint isn't even real, it's placement is kind of... meaningless.

#18 Reflectionist

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 12:38 PM

Given that Hyrule isn't even real, it's placement is kind of... meaningless.



:rolleyes:

#19 Masamune

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 01:20 PM

Yes. I realized that after I posted it. ;)

But I meant Koholint in the context of the Zelda series, which I'm allowed to do in this forum.

#20 Duke Serkol

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 01:29 PM

If the manual does say it's a southern island, then that at least means Link was returning to Hyrule from the south. So yeah, pretty darn relevant :P

#21 Jumbie

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 05:44 PM

That was an interesting post, Jumbie, but you shouldn't just assume that the Oracles are before AoL. There are plenty of reasons for them to be later, too.

Past debates about that resulted in that Oracles can go both places but before LoZ+AoL feels "nicer" than afterwards.
It's placement is one of the ever inconclusive ones, but there seems to be a high agreement that it's less atmospherical after LoZ+AoL.

About Koholint, I keep forgetting to ask Jumbie, but could it be southern really just meant tropical?

I also had that idea while translating, but all the words for tropical are entirely different, so it really means a land of the south. Though that might only refer to its looking like a southern island, of course.

#22 Raien

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 06:05 PM

I've seen just as much support for a post-AoL placement than a pre-LoZ placement; I guess it depends on who you talk to and what kinds of things people refer to in their arguments. Artwork similarities is the most notable point I've heard for a pre-LoZ placement, whereas the Triforce as three separate pieces is the most notable point for a post-AoL placement.

Edited by jhurvid, 03 April 2008 - 06:06 PM.


#23 Impossible

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 07:06 PM

Past debates about that resulted in that Oracles can go both places but before LoZ+AoL feels "nicer" than afterwards.


..."Nicer"? Seriously? Is that the decisive evidence here? When did atmosphere become timeline evidence? I would argue that there's more cohesion after AoL. It avoids disrupting the original flow of the games, and the plot itself follows on from AoL's in a way that feels much "nicer" to me. The fact that the Oracles started as remakes of the NES games may be a hint there, too.

I don't even know any real plot evidence for the pre-LoZ placement.

Given that Koholint isn't even real, it's placement is kind of... meaningless.


Well, it should imply where Link was when he ended up there, at least. And what if the Wind Fish's power did make Koholint real, as long as he was dreaming?

#24 Raien

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 07:41 PM

Impossible has an interesting idea. What if the plotline of reviving Ganon was originally meant to be an adaptation of the plotline of LoZ/AoL, back when the games themselves were planned to be remakes of LoZ and AoL (with a sequel). It makes perfect sense in my mind.

#25 Jumbie

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 08:13 PM

I've seen just as much support for a post-AoL placement than a pre-LoZ placement; I guess it depends on who you talk to and what kinds of things people refer to in their arguments.

Oh, I didn't know that. I was just referring to these boards.

Artwork similarities is the most notable point I've heard for a pre-LoZ placement

Huh?! I would never use that as evidence. I generally reject the use of artwork as evidence. Otherwise one might get the idea that TMC came after TWW, or something funny like that ;)

whereas the Triforce as three separate pieces is the most notable point for a post-AoL placement.

Double-huh?! Now this one is ridiculous. The Triforce was three pieces after ALttP just the same. And in case you mean that they fly around unconnectedly in Oracles, even that is the same in ALttP.

Past debates about that resulted in that Oracles can go both places but before LoZ+AoL feels "nicer" than afterwards.


..."Nicer"? Seriously? Is that the decisive evidence here? When did atmosphere become timeline evidence?

Did you read what I wrote? "Past debates about that resulted in that Oracles can go both places". I didn't lose a word on timeline evidence.

Also, there's Link's Triforce mark. There's only one other time in the series a mark appears without its bearer having the Triforce, which is AoL. So most likely, it appears for the same reason - Link is someone worthy of the Triforce. The king cast a spell to make that mark appear, so without AoL, there's absolutely no precedent for it. As well as that, Impa tells Link that the mark is a sign of a fated hero in Hylian legend. Tell me, when could that mark only be identified as the sign of a hero, and not someone with a Triforce piece? Only AoL actually explains why Impa says that.

Duke Serkol reminded me why that doesn't really work. AoL Link received the mark on his 16th birthday, so if the mark in Oracles appeared because of the King's spell too, Oracles Link would logically have to be 16.
That's older than most believe him to be in ALttP, and would thus render invalid all that you said in the translation thread about Oracles' artwork.

#26 Raien

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 08:27 PM

Huh?! I would never use that as evidence. I generally reject the use of artwork as evidence. Otherwise one might get the idea that TMC came after TWW, or something funny like that ;)


What do you use to support a pre-LoZ placement?

Double-huh?! Now this one is ridiculous. The Triforce was three pieces after ALttP just the same. And in case you mean that they fly around unconnectedly in Oracles, even that is the same in ALttP.


It's not so much the flying around as the fact that each piece of the Triforce is placed upon a separate pedestal. Although ALTTP depicted the three pieces of the Triforce floating separately, it never emphasised the fact that each piece held a distinctive identity. LoZ/AoL gave the Triforce pieces separate identities regarding the plot, and I feel Oracles makes that same distinction by the deliberate choice to keep them separate. After all, the Triforce symbol became iconic after ALTTP, and the only reason I can see to separate them would be to reference LoZ/AoL.

And one thing I just remembered is that the glowing which surrounds each Triforce piece as they work their magic (on Zelda in AoL and Link in Oracles) is identical in AoL and Oracles, which also suggests a reference to me.

#27 Jumbie

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 09:28 PM

What do you use to support a pre-LoZ placement?

Nothing. Should I?

It's not so much the flying around as the fact that each piece of the Triforce is placed upon a separate pedestal. Although ALTTP depicted the three pieces of the Triforce floating separately, it never emphasised the fact that each piece held a distinctive identity. LoZ/AoL gave the Triforce pieces separate identities regarding the plot, and I feel Oracles makes that same distinction by the deliberate choice to keep them separate. After all, the Triforce symbol became iconic after ALTTP, and the only reason I can see to separate them would be to reference LoZ/AoL.

And one thing I just remembered is that the glowing which surrounds each Triforce piece as they work their magic (on Zelda in AoL and Link in Oracles) is identical in AoL and Oracles, which also suggests a reference to me.

Oh, I had forgotten about the three pedestals. Now that's weird indeed, why did they keep the three pieces separately?

#28 Raien

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 10:04 PM

Nothing. Should I?


To rephrase my question, what do you think makes it more likely that Oracles takes place before LoZ, as opposed to after AoL?

Oh, I had forgotten about the three pedestals. Now that's weird indeed, why did they keep the three pieces separately?


There is no reason to explain it with the narrative that I can think of; it looks like an aesthetic choice, which is why I suggest it is meant to support LoZ/AoL's depiction of the Triforce pieces as separate entities.

Edited by jhurvid, 03 April 2008 - 10:04 PM.


#29 Jumbie

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 10:43 PM

To rephrase my question, what do you think makes it more likely that Oracles takes place before LoZ, as opposed to after AoL?

The timeline just feels concluded after AoL somehow, that game is a nice ending to it. Link has just thwarted Ganon's revival, so it would be boring if Twinrova a short time later retried it. And where do they come from, anyway? It should be noted that they were still alive in the new Child Timeline, and one would expect them to show up to revive their master some time between OoT and AoL...

Also, there's the fact that Hyrule is so huge in AoL while there (still) are neighbouring countries in Oracles.
I'm sure there's plenty of other details making OoX > LoZ+AoL the smoother solution, but I forgot them because this debate never comes up here.

There is no reason to explain it with the narrative that I can think of; it looks like an aesthetic choice, which is why I suggest it is meant to support LoZ/AoL's depiction of the Triforce pieces as separate entities.

But they're three separate entities also in other games (OoT, TWW, TP), and we don't put OoX directly after any of them either.

#30 Impossible

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 11:05 PM

Your implication was that the result of debates has concluded that pre-LoZ is better. It's not.

Duke Serkol reminded me why that doesn't really work. AoL Link received the mark on his 16th birthday, so if the mark in Oracles appeared because of the King's spell too, Oracles Link would logically have to be 16.
That's older than most believe him to be in ALttP, and would thus render invalid all that you said in the translation thread about Oracles' artwork.


This is the same as saying TWW Link should have gone to sleep for seven years when he drew the Master Sword. The king didn't specify an age, it could have been different for him.

More importantly, that doesn't change the other significant thing about the mark, which is that it's the sign of a hero. Nothing to do with having a Triforce piece. Why is it the sign of a hero if AoL hasn't happened yet? It doesn't make sense.

What do you use to support a pre-LoZ placement?

Nothing. Should I?


Yes, because you just said it's nicer. Without any evidence, or reasons to suggest that it was intended (like the Oracles perhaps including parts of the sequel to AoL that was being made), it's not nicer. I'm glad we agree that any artistic similarities to ALttP and LA are irrelevant, though.

I don't believe that the Triforce being in three "pieces" or not matters. But anyone can see a shitload of LoZ and AoL references in the Oracles. I don't count references as timeline evidence for major issues, but there are two different Oracle placements that are very close to each other in their amount of supporting evidence. That's why I'm saying that little things like the Triforce crest and the development of the game can help us choose a more appropriate placement. And those NES game references are in both story and gameplay, not just gameplay and graphics like TMC or something. The Triforce crest itself is another reference to AoL, even if you can argue that it's possible before LoZ as well. It's a shared story element, as is the revival of Ganon.




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