[Hero of Legend]

Jumbie said:

Or reincarnated, like Ganondorf. Ever since I got convinced that TMC is too different to be FS's backstory, I've thought Vaati is reborn as a new person since this also allows for other games to happen between TMC and FS

That's certainly possible, and not much different from my theory. Let’s leave it at that.

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(and for him to develop the lust for young girls which the Minish one lacked).

I don't think that's a huge problem even if it is the same Vaati. In TMC, Vaati is concerned with becoming a demon god, but why? Presumably so that he can do stuff like that. After all, that's what ruling the world is all about, isn't it?

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I admit I'm having a hard time explaining away your last point. Seems like I have to give in to the notion that "When he last tried to conquer Hyrule" refers to FS' backstory... But that still doesn't have to be TMC.
So, long after TMC and some time before FS' backstory, Vaati could've revived, stolen the power to control wind from the Wind People, and... maybe he did occupy their Palace, because as you said, in FS it does look like in TMC.
The important thing is that in FSA it does not. FSA's Palace of Winds is not the one from TMC, because there's another sky fortress in FSA that looks much more like TMC's Palace of Winds than the actual final level does.

I agree with all of that. Maybe Ganon built the Palace in FSA? No, he couldn’t have, because it was built with Vaati's power. Uh, what if Vaati built it on Ganon's orders, then? Or maybe the design of the Palace of Winds was one of the things that was decided upon when FSA was still supposed to be ALttP's prequel (which explains why it looks like the interior of ALttP's pyramid), and they didn't change it? Yeah, I think I'll go with that.

MikePetersSucks said:

Since Vaati doesn't lose his portion of the Light Force at his death

Says who? Ezlo says he lost his power, so I'm quite interested to hear where you learned this.

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I still doubt he was reincarnated. Occam's Razor prefers resurrection.

Actually, the simplest solution favors the idea that he didn't die at all.

This post has been edited by Hero of Legend: 02 June 2008 - 02:28 PM

[MikePetersSucks]

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Says who? Ezlo says he lost his power, so I'm quite interested to hear where you learned this.

Ezlo was referring to the Mage's Cap, if anything. And besides, we don't see the Light Force go anywhere, and in his next appearance, Vaati is almost exactly as he was. Since his Demon Eye form was caused by the Light Force, there's no reason to assume he doesn't have it anymore.

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Actually, the simplest solution favors the idea that he didn't die at all.

Yea, except he did. We saw it happen.

[Hero of Legend]

MikePetersSucks said:

Ezlo was referring to the Mage's Cap, if anything. And besides, we don't see the Light Force go anywhere, and in his next appearance, Vaati is almost exactly as he was. Since his Demon Eye form was caused by the Light Force, there's no reason to assume he doesn't have it anymore.

Again, Ganon became a demon through the power of the ToP but he's still a pig in AoL where he's recently resurrected and does not have it. In other words, that doesn't prove anything.

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Yea, except he did. We saw it happen.

No. We saw him explode and disappear, but that doesn't mean he's any more dead than after he was after he exploded the first time.

This post has been edited by Hero of Legend: 03 June 2008 - 05:31 AM

[MikePetersSucks]

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Again, Ganon became a demon through the power of the ToP but he's still a pig in AoL where he's recently resurrected and does not have it. In other words, that doesn't prove anything.

He's not resurrected in AoL, so that doesn't really mean anything. Though if you do die and they use blood to resurrect Ganon, there's also no one to stop him from getting the Triforce, so...

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No. We saw him explode and disappear, but that doesn't mean he's any more dead than after he was after he exploded the first time.

He also dropped the Mage's Cap, which returned to it's purified form. Then Zelda used it as a deus ex machina to fix every problem in the kingdom. Bitch is dead.

[Hero of Legend]

MikePetersSucks said:

He's not resurrected in AoL, so that doesn't really mean anything. Though if you do die and they use blood to resurrect Ganon, there's also no one to stop him from getting the Triforce, so...

Resorting to petty excuses won’t win you any debates. Ganon is clearly depicted as a pig in AoL, with or without the Triforce. That’s a fact.

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He also dropped the Mage's Cap, which returned to it's purified form. Then Zelda used it as a deus ex machina to fix every problem in the kingdom. Bitch is dead.

Again, things don't simply become that way because you say so. What matters is what the game says, and it doesn't say that. Or is it really impossible for you to imagine Vaati losing his source of power without actually dying? Don't lie, because we both know it's not.

This post has been edited by Hero of Legend: 03 June 2008 - 03:53 PM

[MikePetersSucks]

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Resorting to petty excuses won’t win you any debates. Ganon is clearly depicted as a pig in AoL, with or without the Triforce. That’s a fact.

It's not an excuse. Ganon isn't resurrected in AoL, and even if he was, he'd instantly get the Triforce. Besides, the Triforce of Power didn't reside within him in LoZ, so maybe he used it to transfigure himself. It's kind've a moot point either way.

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Again, things don't simply become that way because you say so. What matters is what the game says, and it doesn't say that. Or is it really impossible for you to imagine Vaati losing his source of power without actually dying? Don't lie, because we both know it's not.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but that's not the way it happened. Vaati is defeated. If he was still alive at the end of TMC, he'd probably come back for ANOTHER fight right then and there.

This post has been edited by MikePetersSucks: 03 June 2008 - 11:34 PM

[Raien]

I don't mean to break up this discussion, but is there any chance of a new translation soon? Feels like the time is right for one...

[Jumbie]

Raian, on Jun 4 2008, 09:10 PM, said:

I don't mean to break up this discussion, but is there any chance of a new translation soon? Feels like the time is right for one...

Hehe, now that's funny! There was gonna be a new translation last night already, but I got interrupted.
Here's your request, when Link meets Zelda for the first time in TP:

Zelda said:

・・・ミドナ？！
…Midna?!
…Midna?!

Midna said:

ククッ・・・覚えててくれたの？
He heh… You remembered?
Eee hee! You remember my name? What an honor for me…

Zelda said:

この方が　あなたの探していた・・・
This is the one for whom you were searching…
So, this is the one for whom you were searching…

Midna said:

思ってたのと、ちょっと違うけど・・・まぁ・・・そんなもんかな？
A little different than I had in mind, but… meh… I guess that one will do?
He's not exactly what I had in mind, but…I guess he'll do.

Zelda said:

・・・あなたが　捕らえられていたのですね。ごめんなさい
…You were imprisoned, right? I am sorry.
…You were imprisoned? I am sorry.

Midna said:

ここがドコで　何が起こったのか　全然わかってないみたいだからさ
Because of that, he doesn't have the slightest idea where this is or what's happened!
Poor thing, he has no idea where this is or what's happened…

アンタのしでかしたコトを　教えてやってくれないか？
Won't you explain to him what you've caused?
So, don't you think you should explain to him what you've managed to do? You owe him that much…

黄昏の姫さんよ！　クククッ
Twilight Princess! He he heh.
…Twilight Princess! Eee hee!

Zelda said:

よく聞いてください
Please listen carefully.
Listen carefully…

ここは、かつて神の力が眠るといわれた王国ハイラルです
This is Hyrule, the kingdom where once the power of the gods was said to sleep.
This was once the land where the power of the gods was said to slumber. This was once the kingdom of Hyrule.

しかし　このハイラルは　影を支配する王によって　黄昏の黒雲が覆う
But Hyrule was covered with black clouds of twilight by the king that rules the shadows.
But that blessed kingdom has been transformed by the king that rules the twilight…

影の領域に　なってしまいました
It has been turned into an area of shadows.
It has been turned into a world of shadows, ruled by creatures who shun the light.

Zant said:

選ぶがよい　降伏か、死か。ハイラル全土の。生か！　死かを！
You decide: surrender or die. For all the land of Hyrule. Life? Or death?!
It is time for you to choose: surrender or die. Oh yes, a question for all the land and people of Hyrule… Life? Or death?!

Zelda said:

黄昏の黒雲が　ハイラルを覆い、光を奪われた人々は　魂となりました
With the black clouds of twilight covering Hyrule, the people, bereft of light, became as spirits.
Twilight covered Hyrule like a shroud, and without light, the people became as spirits.

そして、今でも・・・・・・人々は、自分達が魂になったこともわからず
And now still…… the people are unaware that they turned into spirits.
Within the twilight, they live on, unaware that they have passed into spirit forms…

ただじっと、影の魔物に怯えながら生きる　存在になってしまったのです・・・
They have come to lead an all quiet existence frightened by the shadow monsters.
All the people know now is fear… Fear of a nameless evil…

そして、私はこの国の王女。ゼルダ
And I am this country's princess. Zelda.
The kingdom succumbed to twilight, but I remain its princess… I am Zelda.

Midna said:

そんな悲しい顔　しなくていいじゃん
No need to make such a sad face.
You don't have to look so sad!

ワタシらにとっては　住みやすいし。光の世界が　影の領域になっただけの事だろ
For us, it's easy living. It's only that the world of light turned into an area of shadows, right?
We actually find it to be quite livable! I mean, is perpetual twilight really all that bad?

Zelda said:

ミドナ・・・影の魔物達は　あなたを捕らえようと　捜し回っています　何故です？
Midna… The shadow monsters have been searching far and wide to seize you. Why is this?
Midna… This is no time for levity. The shadow beasts have been searching far and wide for you. Why is this?

Midna said:

さぁ、何故でしょう？　クククッ
Yeah, why indeed? Hehehe.
Why indeed? You tell me! Eee hee hee!

Zelda said:

もうすぐ、見張りの者が来る頃です
Soon it is time for the guard to come around.
Time has grown short. The guard will soon make his rounds.

早く、ここから逃げて
Quick, flee from here.
You must leave here, quickly.

Notes:
- 黄昏の姫 (Twilight Princess) is the same wording with which the sages reveal Midna's identity.

- Zelda doesn't say it "was once the kingdom of Hyrule", she says it is Hyrule right now. Rather, "once" refers to the sleeping of the Triforce, which now isn't at rest anymore.

- Hyrule's being covered with black clouds is reminiscent of FSA ("The forest's been covered by pitch-black clouds recently."). The black clouds of Twilight are what is spreading over the land as soon as a Light Spirit has been rendered defenc

This post has been edited by Jumbie: 04 June 2008 - 09:17 PM

[LionHarted]

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- Zelda doesn't say it "was once the kingdom of Hyrule", she says it is Hyrule right now. Rather, "once" refers to the sleeping of the Triforce, which now isn't at rest anymore.

I'm off to spread the word.

The Triforce is in TP, absolutely without a doubt.

This post has been edited by LionHarted: 04 June 2008 - 06:19 PM

[Raien]

Excellent! Three points:

1) Spelling error: It's "surrender or die", not "surrounder or die".

2) It appears to me that the legends of the Triforce have faded away over time, hence "This is Hyrule, the kingdom where once the power of the gods was said to sleep."

3) The black clouds are a recurring symbol of evil passing over Hyrule. In OoT, Zelda said the black clouds in her dream represented Ganondorf, and I believe the black clouds have appeared before even that.

This post has been edited by Raian: 04 June 2008 - 06:28 PM

[LionHarted]

Raian, on Jun 4 2008, 06:26 PM, said:

It appears to me that the legends of the Triforce have faded away over time, hence "This is Hyrule, the kingdom where once the power of the gods was said to sleep."

Definitely, but the only reason I can think of that would have any significance whatsoever to the plot is the possession of the pieces by the wielders.

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The black clouds are a recurring symbol of evil passing over Hyrule. In OoT, Zelda said the black clouds in her dream represented Ganondorf, and I believe the black clouds have appeared before even that.

I think FSA's beginning mirrors ALttP's in such a way that we can say that the clouds have been retroactively applied there. It may be that they were added to the remake, as well.

[Raien]

LionHarted, on Jun 5 2008, 12:55 AM, said:

Definitely, but the only reason I can think of that would have any significance whatsoever to the plot is the possession of the pieces by the wielders.

Sure. It's a statement that puts the Triforce into the context of the time period.

This post has been edited by Raian: 04 June 2008 - 07:14 PM

[LionHarted]

Raian, on Jun 4 2008, 07:14 PM, said:

Sure. It's a statement that puts the Triforce into the context of the time period.

Ah. I thought you might be implying that it only meant that there were no legends left, not that the legends were obsolete.

[Raien]

LionHarted, on Jun 5 2008, 01:51 AM, said:

Ah. I thought you might be implying that it only meant that there were no legends left, not that the legends were obsolete.

What I mean is that legends in the Zelda universe fade over time, while remaining true amongst the royal family. Zelda's line says that legends of the Triforce have faded, but she still indicates the Triforce's existence by simply referencing it.

Of course, part of Hyrule's identity in the Zelda mythos is as the location of the Triforce, so perhaps Zelda is referencing the Triforce in order to say "this is the holy kingdom of Hyrule".

[Jumbie]

Raian, on Jun 5 2008, 01:26 AM, said:

1) Spelling error: It's "surrender or die", not "surrounder or die".

But, the Japanese actually does say "surrounder"... nah, joke. Fixed. Hehe, how could that happen!

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2) It appears to me that the legends of the Triforce have faded away over time, hence "This is Hyrule, the kingdom where once the power of the gods was said to sleep."

Ah, that's possible too.

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3) The black clouds are a recurring symbol of evil passing over Hyrule. In OoT, Zelda said the black clouds in her dream represented Ganondorf, and I believe the black clouds have appeared before even that.

I considered that, but they don't actually affect the landscape in OoT, whereas in FSA and TP they do.

[Raien]

Jumbie, on Jun 5 2008, 03:23 AM, said:

I considered that, but they don't actually affect the landscape in OoT, whereas in FSA and TP they do.

Why should that matter? The dark clouds carry the same symbolism, whether in the dream or reality. And for the record, the dark clouds appeared in the Imprisoning War, or so says ALTTP's manual.

[MikePetersSucks]

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Why should that matter? The dark clouds carry the same symbolism, whether in the dream or reality. And for the record, the dark clouds appeared in the Imprisoning War, or so says ALTTP's manual.

If the clouds have different metaphysical properties, then they're different. Symbolism isn't the end all and be all.

[Raien]

MikePetersSucks, on Jun 5 2008, 05:34 AM, said:

If the clouds have different metaphysical properties, then they're different. Symbolism isn't the end all and be all.

Actually, if everything in the world exists for a deeper meaning or purpose, then that purpose (understood through the symbols) is the end all and be all. That's what it means to build a universe on symbolism, as the Zelda universe has been built. Metaphysics, on the other hand, is an example of knowledge without symbolic meaning, as I elaborated on in the symbolism topic, so I don't understand why you're raising that concept when the evidence to support its relevance to the storyline is nil.

This post has been edited by Raian: 05 June 2008 - 07:58 AM

[Hero of Legend]

Raian said:

I don't understand why you're raising that concept when the evidence to support its relevance to the storyline is nil.

In case you didn't notice, the Twilight Curtain IS a dark cloud. And no, it doesn't have to be symbolic - most things are not, just as there is no deeper meaning behind most of the symbolism that actually exists.

This post has been edited by Hero of Legend: 05 June 2008 - 11:16 AM

[Raien]

Hero of Legend, on Jun 5 2008, 05:14 PM, said:

In case you didn't notice, the Twilight Curtain IS a dark cloud. And no, it doesn't have to be symbolic - most things are not, just as there is no deeper meaning behind most of the symbolism that actually exists.

So you don't think that dark clouds are synonymous with arising evil? Given the dark clouds appear whenever evil arises, and that Zelda saw dark clouds as a premonition of Ganondorf's arrival, I would say the symbolism is pretty clear.

This post has been edited by Raian: 05 June 2008 - 11:37 AM

[Hero of Legend]

Yes, but those clouds are of the kind seen during the final battle with Ganondorf. When Zelda speaks of a darkness over Hyrule, she is referencing the Twilight.

This post has been edited by Hero of Legend: 05 June 2008 - 12:01 PM

[Raien]

Hero of Legend, on Jun 5 2008, 05:58 PM, said:

Yes, but those clouds are of the kind seen during the final battle with Ganondorf. When Zelda speaks of a darkness over Hyrule, she is referencing the Twilight.

Of course she was referencing Twilight, but at the time in which the Twilight invaded Hyrule, the light of that realm (the Sols) had been stolen by Zant, so it had ultimately become an evil place. The children in Kakariko referred to it as living in a nightmare.

This post has been edited by Raian: 05 June 2008 - 12:16 PM

[Hero of Legend]

Huh? What are you saying here? I don't think the Sols have anything to do with the shadow that covers Hyrule. The "twilight" isn't even called that for the most part (in the Japanese version), and I don't think it has anything to do with the actual Twilight Realm.

Second, what has any of that to do with symbolism? The matter of fact is that the twilight is a cloud of darkness. Why should we understand Zelda's statement as symbolic when it's a blatantly true empirical observation?

This post has been edited by Hero of Legend: 05 June 2008 - 12:31 PM

[Raien]

Hero of Legend, on Jun 5 2008, 06:27 PM, said:

Huh? What are you saying here? I don't think the Sols have anything to do with the shadow that covers Hyrule. The "twilight" isn't even called that for the most part (in the Japanese version), and if I'm not mistaken, it is in fact nothing more than a lack of light.

You're right, so far as to say that it is the lack of light that causes the people to become spirits (and according to Kakariko's bomb maker, shadow beasts), just like the lack of light caused the Twili to transform into shadow beasts (according to Midna). But Darkness, by definition, is the absence of Light, does it not make sense that Darkness (or Dark Twilight, in this case) should appear when the Light is stolen from the land?

PS: I know that "Dark Twilight" isn't a canon title, but for me it's the easiest way to distinguish between the two states of the Twilight Realm; the state where it is bathed in Light and the state where Light is absent. And while the Twilight covering Hyrule may not be the Twilight Realm proper, it still shows the qualities of Dark Twilight.

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Second, what has any of that to do with symbolism? The matter of fact is that the twilight is a cloud of darkness. Why should we understand Zelda's statement as symbolic when it's a blatantly true empirical observation?

I think you misunderstand my application of symbolism to the Zelda universe. Everything that we see in the Zelda universe is obvious real, whether it be dark clouds or Light magic. But everything that is real exists for an ultimately deeper meaning or purpose, and like all traditional mythologies, that meaning is defined by symbolism. The dark clouds appear in different Zelda games under different empirical forms, but they always represent the same meaning in each game as heralds of evil, and thus that is the reason why dark clouds always appear whenever evil appears.

This post has been edited by Raian: 05 June 2008 - 01:28 PM

[MikePetersSucks]

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Actually, if everything in the world exists for a deeper meaning or purpose, then that purpose (understood through the symbols) is the end all and be all. That's what it means to build a universe on symbolism, as the Zelda universe has been built.

[citation needed]

[Raien]

MikePetersSucks, on Jun 5 2008, 08:19 PM, said:

[citation needed]

Who needs citation when I can write an entire topic on symbolism in the Zelda universe and comparisons to traditional mythologies? For so much symbolism to exist amongst the foundations of the game storylines, it's clearly a centrepoint for the Zelda universe.

This post has been edited by Raian: 05 June 2008 - 02:36 PM

[LionHarted]

Raian, on Jun 5 2008, 02:34 PM, said:

Who needs citation when I can write an entire topic on symbolism in the Zelda universe and comparisons to traditional mythologies? For so much symbolism to exist, it's clearly a centrepoint for the Zelda universe.

Symbolism could easily be seen as a centerpoint for OUR universe as well, you know.

[Raien]

LionHarted, on Jun 5 2008, 08:36 PM, said:

Symbolism could easily be seen as a centerpoint for OUR universe as well, you know.

I've covered all this in the Symbolism topic. If you wish to continue debating the relevance of symbolism, do so there, not here.

This post has been edited by Raian: 05 June 2008 - 03:26 PM

[Jumbie]

Raian, on Jun 5 2008, 04:38 AM, said:

Jumbie, on Jun 5 2008, 03:23 AM, said:

I considered that, but they don't actually affect the landscape in OoT, whereas in FSA and TP they do.

Why should that matter? The dark clouds carry the same symbolism, whether in the dream or reality. And for the record, the dark clouds appeared in the Imprisoning War, or so says ALTTP's manual.

I'm aware that dark clouds in Zelda usually are a metaphor for arising evil, but that's why I specified that in TP, just like in FSA, there is much more to the dark clouds than mere symbolics. They themselves are actually the threat this time, as opposed to being just a herald or accompaniment for evil. This is important because it's something that only FSA and TP have in common (a veil of darkness covering and changing the land). I really don't see why you try to deny this. Recently you come around advertising that symbolism thingie as if you were paid for doing so...

Before I forget to mention it, "black clouds of twilight" is apparently a description of the...atmosphere...that Zant poured out of the Shadow Realm onto the land of Hyrule. Remember when Midna said, "The cloud of twilight is looking wonderful today" when entering an area of Twilight? What do you think she meant, that she admires the presence of evil in the land? No, she spoke, like Zelda, of this new "layer" that covers Hyrule.
What all this shows is that the light world doesn't turn into Twilight because the Light Spirits lose their light, but rather the light world is overflown by a twilight layer coming from the Shadow Realm, which only gets possible once the Light Spirits are stolen their light.

Hero of Legend, on Jun 5 2008, 07:27 PM, said:

The "twilight" isn't even called that for the most part (in the Japanese version), and I don't think it has anything to do with the actual Twilight Realm.

Well, the Twilight Realm is called Shadow Realm, where there is perpetual "tasogare" (twilight), but the Twilight in Hyrule is called "Towairaito, area of shadows". Here, the usage of the English word "twilight" as a proper name seems to signify a certain artificiality to that world.

Raian, on Jun 5 2008, 07:48 PM, said:

PS: I know that "Dark Twilight" isn't a canon title, but for me it's the easiest way to distinguish between the two states of the Twilight Realm; the state where it is bathed in Light and the state where Light is absent. And while the Twilight covering Hyrule may not be the Twilight Realm proper, it still shows the qualities of Dark Twilight.

The Shadow Realm was never "bathed in light", rather it enjoyed the "glow of that twilight". The Sols seem to emit an unusual type of waves we could perhaps call "twilight light", that's why the Sol-infused Master Sword only works within the Shadow World, because that kind of wave isn't visible in the light world. As such, you're right that the Shadow World turned darker when Zant removed the Sols. Then he took the black clouds of twilight to Hyrule.

[Raien]

Jumbie, on Jun 6 2008, 11:58 AM, said:

I'm aware that dark clouds in Zelda usually are a metaphor for arising evil, but that's why I specified that in TP, just like in FSA, there is much more to the dark clouds than mere symbolics. They themselves are actually the threat this time, as opposed to being just a herald or accompaniment for evil. This is important because it's something that only FSA and TP have in common (a veil of darkness covering and changing the land). I really don't see why you try to deny this. Recently you come around advertising that symbolism thingie as if you were paid for doing so...

I advertise symbolism because addressing symbolism actually forces theorists to think about the general meanings and not split hairs over the details. Dark clouds come in different forms and at different times, but what they represent to the people of Hyrule (an invasion of evil) is exactly the same.

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Before I forget to mention it, "black clouds of twilight" is apparently a description of the...atmosphere...that Zant poured out of the Shadow Realm onto the land of Hyrule. Remember when Midna said, "The cloud of twilight is looking wonderful today" when entering an area of Twilight? What do you think she meant, that she admires the presence of evil in the land? No, she spoke, like Zelda, of this new "layer" that covers Hyrule.
What all this shows is that the light world doesn't turn into Twilight because the Light Spirits lose their light, but rather the light world is overflown by a twilight layer coming from the Shadow Realm, which only gets possible once the Light Spirits are stolen their light.

Of course. From what I can see, the Twilight Realm possesses a "nature" (best word I can think of right now) that exists independently of whether it is covered by Light or Darkness, and that atmosphere of Twilight has indeed covered Hyrule. However, it doesn't change the fact that living under the Twilight has caused people to feel fear (the children of Kakariko refer to it as a nightmare), which certainly does implicate an evil presence. But the nature of Dark Twilight is best explained in response to your next reply.

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The Shadow Realm was never "bathed in light", rather it enjoyed the "glow of that twilight". The Sols seem to emit an unusual type of waves we could perhaps call "twilight light", that's why the Sol-infused Master Sword only works within the Shadow World, because that kind of wave isn't visible in the light world. As such, you're right that the Shadow World turned darker when Zant removed the Sols. Then he took the black clouds of twilight to Hyrule.

The Sols are not proper Light, but they are a subsidiary form of Light nonetheless. They are the "suns" of the Twilight Realm; they bathe the people and repel Darkness with their presence, exactly like the Light of Hyrule. Given the context, I think the words "bathed in Light" are suitable to get my meaning across.

Also, Midna said that Ganondorf's magic could only be repulsed by the Sols' magic in the Master Sword, yet they were in the Light World. So I have a theory that the cumulative powers of Darkness and Twilight can only be repelled by the cumulative powers of Light and Twilight.