[LionHarted]

I'd personally like translations of the history of the Dark Mirror from FSA.

[Duke Serkol]

Quote

奴の持つ憎悪や欲望は怨念となり・・・
The fellow's abiding hatred and desire turned into grudge…

OMG! Begrudgy Ganondorf! *Croaks loudly*

Jumbie, on Nov 12 2007, 06:04 AM, said:

- The "power of darkness" which only Ganondorf possessed until he shared it with Zant, is 闇の力, the very same thing mentioned in FSA in the Trident inscription.

And does this translate just as "power of darkness"? Or something more specific?

Jumbie, on Nov 12 2007, 06:04 AM, said:

Even though it might not seem an insult, just comparable to "fellow/guy", maybe "punk/jerk"

We really ought to find a more appropriate term (maybe rip off Mario's "miscreant")

Jumbie, on Nov 12 2007, 06:04 AM, said:

- Describing Ganondorf's seizure, Japanese is, as usual, much more blunt. But as to whether that makes theorizing easier, you decide.

More blunt? How?

This post has been edited by Duke Serkol: 12 November 2007 - 09:16 AM

[LionHarted]

It says he was "caught off-guard", while the English simply states that he was unaware of the danger.
This gives us a bit more insight into how he was subdued, since it would seem he was either overpowered or caught by surprise, whereas the English was a little more broad.

[jacensolo06]

Duke Serkol, on Nov 12 2007, 02:14 PM, said:

And does this translate just as "power of darkness"? Or something more specific?

闇の力 (yami no chikara) translates directly to "power of darkness", so it's not any more specific.

[CID Farwin]

Quote

Probably by a prank of the gods, the fellow, too, was somebody chosen by the gods to have power.

*grumble* I was hoping that the Japanese didn't use "divine prank," but it seems that they used an equivalent.

Well, at least there's a 'probably,' which should at least discourage those who argue that 'divine prank' actually means something; It means that the sage doesn't know for sure how Ganondorf got the Triforce.

[FDL]

It seems to me that the way it's phrased(or at least translated) implies that the sages are merely perplexed that someone as evil as Ganondorf would have command over the power that makes him a "demon". Like, why he was created as a demon rather than an angel. However, I believe they're also referring to the fact that he was chosen by the gods to bear the Triforce inside of him rather than just having it as an item. Another example would be how Link got the Triforce of Courage as an item in TWW but it didn't live within him until he's "chosen by the gods". However, the only thing that the quote implies specifically is what I originally mentioned, which is the fact that he was created evil and powerful.

[SOAP]

The way I see it is that the Sages were shocked that Ganondorf had the ToP when the in the past when the Twili tried to seize the Triforce, the Goddesses directly intervened. Since they didn't intervene with Ganondorf, the logical conclusion was that he was chosen by the Goddesses, perhaps as some prank. Had the Goddesses become evil? The Sages probably felt so. Ganondorf very well may be chosen. But he still could've gotten the Triforce of Power himself, possibly the same way he did in OoT. He touched the full Triforce and it split on him. One crest stayed with him and the other two went to child Link and Zelda. He goes into hiding for a while like he does in OoT after the Triforce splits and Ganondorf is no where to be found. The timelines begin to diverge though with Link's knowlege of the future that Ganondorf was still at bay. So while Hyrule's army was still strong, Ganondorf was hunted down before he could cause the damage he did during the seven year gap in OoT. He is executed by the Sages at the Arbiter Grounds, but to their surprise the ToP revives him.

[FDL]

I agree, SOAP. The reasons he's chosen are:


1. His command over "dark power".

2. The fact that goddesses didn't stop him when he attacked the Sacred Realm.

3. The Triforce piece manifesting as an inner power with Ganondorf and then amplifying his own power rather than remaining as a regular item.



His being "chosen" has nothing to do with the Triforce randomly being given to him. The Triforce appearing as a crest on his hand is.

This post has been edited by Fierce Deity Link: 12 November 2007 - 06:28 PM

[Jumbie]

LionHarted, on Nov 12 2007, 07:03 AM, said:

I'd personally like translations of the history of the Dark Mirror from FSA.

Like the bit that Dampé tells? That is under way, along with the rest of the Trident inscription.

Duke Serkol, on Nov 12 2007, 03:14 PM, said:

More blunt? How?

I meant that English used the fancy triple construction of "exposed, subdued, and brought to justice" whereas Japanese has just one blunt expression, "caught off guard", in that place.

LionHarted, on Nov 12 2007, 03:48 PM, said:

It says he was "caught off-guard", while the English simply states that he was unaware of the danger.
This gives us a bit more insight into how he was subdued, since it would seem he was either overpowered or caught by surprise, whereas the English was a little more broad.

Right. I'll also specify that the original Japanese wording is "an opportunity was born", in the sense of "an opportunity to attack Ganondorf".

CID Farwin, on Nov 12 2007, 06:33 PM, said:

Quote

Probably by a prank of the gods, the fellow, too, was somebody chosen by the gods to have power.

*grumble* I was hoping that the Japanese didn't use "divine prank," but it seems that they used an equivalent.

Well, at least there's a 'probably,' which should at least discourage those who argue that 'divine prank' actually means something; It means that the sage doesn't know for sure how Ganondorf got the Triforce.

Exactly. What I translated as "probably", was the little word "ka" which indicates that the speaker is not sure whether what he says is correct.

Fierce Deity Link, on Nov 12 2007, 06:51 PM, said:

However, the only thing that the quote implies specifically is what I originally mentioned, which is the fact that he was created evil and powerful.

Well, he was a wielder of evil magic long before he first got the ToP. Be it ALttP, OoT, or TP, they all agree about that fact. From this text in TP we also learn that this evil magic is the "power of darkness" from FSA fame (not implying TP could happen after FSA).

Fierce Deity Link, on Nov 13 2007, 12:27 AM, said:

I agree, SOAP. The reasons he's chosen are:

1. His command over "dark power".

I think he got this power when Twinrova trained him.

Quote

2. The fact that goddesses didn't stop him when he attacked the Sacred Realm.

We shouldn't wonder why they didn't stop someone who rightfully wanted to claim the Triforce his own. Rather we should be surprised that the *Twili's ancestors* were not allowed to claim it. There are no divine guidelines saying that evil persons mustn't get the Triforce - it's only the good people of Hyrule who have a problem with that. So, what is it that made the Twili's ancestors so abnormal that the Goddesses had to intervene?

[SOAP]

Jumbie, on Nov 13 2007, 01:16 AM, said:

LionHarted, on Nov 12 2007, 07:03 AM, said:

I'd personally like translations of the history of the Dark Mirror from FSA.

Like the bit that Dampé tells? That is under way, along with the rest of the Trident inscription.

Duke Serkol, on Nov 12 2007, 03:14 PM, said:

More blunt? How?

I meant that English used the fancy triple construction of "exposed, subdued, and brought to justice" whereas Japanese has just one blunt expression, "caught off guard", in that place.

LionHarted, on Nov 12 2007, 03:48 PM, said:

It says he was "caught off-guard", while the English simply states that he was unaware of the danger.
This gives us a bit more insight into how he was subdued, since it would seem he was either overpowered or caught by surprise, whereas the English was a little more broad.

Right. I'll also specify that the original Japanese wording is "an opportunity was born", in the sense of "an opportunity to attack Ganondorf".

CID Farwin, on Nov 12 2007, 06:33 PM, said:

Quote

Probably by a prank of the gods, the fellow, too, was somebody chosen by the gods to have power.

*grumble* I was hoping that the Japanese didn't use "divine prank," but it seems that they used an equivalent.

Well, at least there's a 'probably,' which should at least discourage those who argue that 'divine prank' actually means something; It means that the sage doesn't know for sure how Ganondorf got the Triforce.

Exactly. What I translated as "probably", was the little word "ka" which indicates that the speaker is not sure whether what he says is correct.

Fierce Deity Link, on Nov 12 2007, 06:51 PM, said:

However, the only thing that the quote implies specifically is what I originally mentioned, which is the fact that he was created evil and powerful.

Well, he was a wielder of evil magic long before he first got the ToP. Be it ALttP, OoT, or TP, they all agree about that fact. From this text in TP we also learn that this evil magic is the "power of darkness" from FSA fame (not implying TP could happen after FSA).

Fierce Deity Link, on Nov 13 2007, 12:27 AM, said:

I agree, SOAP. The reasons he's chosen are:

1. His command over "dark power".

I think he got this power when Twinrova trained him.

Quote

2. The fact that goddesses didn't stop him when he attacked the Sacred Realm.

We shouldn't wonder why they didn't stop someone who rightfully wanted to claim the Triforce his own. Rather we should be surprised that the *Twili's ancestors* were not allowed to claim it. There are no divine guidelines saying that evil persons mustn't get the Triforce - it's only the good people of Hyrule who have a problem with that. So, what is it that made the Twili's ancestors so abnormal that the Goddesses had to intervene?

There's a theory that the Twili and Gerudo are one and the same. I'm not so about this theory personally but the context clues in the games laeves room for such an interpretation. In this case, the Twili's banishment makes sense. If Ganondorf is the laeder of the Twili Midna says they lost to Greed, then that means that the Twili were banished by the Goddesses because only Ganondorf was chosen among them, not the whole tribe. Each crest can only go to one of three chosen ones. Other people can obtain a crest and hold onto as a tangible object (Like how King Daphnes held onto one half of the Triforce of Wisdom) but it won't dwell in them as a crest on their hand. That's reserved for the chosen ones once the Triforce pieces reaches them.

Edit: So the Goddesses intervene with the Twili not because they were abnormal but quite the opposite. They simply weren't special enough.

This post has been edited by SOAP: 12 November 2007 - 08:35 PM

[Duke Serkol]

Jumbie, on Nov 13 2007, 02:16 AM, said:

We shouldn't wonder why they didn't stop someone who rightfully wanted to claim the Triforce his own. Rather we should be surprised that the *Twili's ancestors* were not allowed to claim it. There are no divine guidelines saying that evil persons mustn't get the Triforce - it's only the good people of Hyrule who have a problem with that. So, what is it that made the Twili's ancestors so abnormal that the Goddesses had to intervene?

Word.

SOAP, on Nov 13 2007, 02:30 AM, said:

If Ganondorf is the laeder of the Twili Midna says they lost to Greed

Eh, there's quite the surprise soon to come on that... but I'll let Jumbie do the honors.

[FDL]

Jumbie, on Nov 12 2007, 09:16 PM, said:

LionHarted, on Nov 12 2007, 07:03 AM, said:

I'd personally like translations of the history of the Dark Mirror from FSA.

Like the bit that Dampé tells? That is under way, along with the rest of the Trident inscription.

Duke Serkol, on Nov 12 2007, 03:14 PM, said:

More blunt? How?

I meant that English used the fancy triple construction of "exposed, subdued, and brought to justice" whereas Japanese has just one blunt expression, "caught off guard", in that place.

LionHarted, on Nov 12 2007, 03:48 PM, said:

It says he was "caught off-guard", while the English simply states that he was unaware of the danger.
This gives us a bit more insight into how he was subdued, since it would seem he was either overpowered or caught by surprise, whereas the English was a little more broad.

Right. I'll also specify that the original Japanese wording is "an opportunity was born", in the sense of "an opportunity to attack Ganondorf".

CID Farwin, on Nov 12 2007, 06:33 PM, said:

Quote

Probably by a prank of the gods, the fellow, too, was somebody chosen by the gods to have power.

*grumble* I was hoping that the Japanese didn't use "divine prank," but it seems that they used an equivalent.

Well, at least there's a 'probably,' which should at least discourage those who argue that 'divine prank' actually means something; It means that the sage doesn't know for sure how Ganondorf got the Triforce.

Exactly. What I translated as "probably", was the little word "ka" which indicates that the speaker is not sure whether what he says is correct.

Fierce Deity Link, on Nov 12 2007, 06:51 PM, said:

However, the only thing that the quote implies specifically is what I originally mentioned, which is the fact that he was created evil and powerful.

Well, he was a wielder of evil magic long before he first got the ToP. Be it ALttP, OoT, or TP, they all agree about that fact. From this text in TP we also learn that this evil magic is the "power of darkness" from FSA fame (not implying TP could happen after FSA).

Fierce Deity Link, on Nov 13 2007, 12:27 AM, said:

I agree, SOAP. The reasons he's chosen are:

1. His command over "dark power".

I think he got this power when Twinrova trained him.

Quote

2. The fact that goddesses didn't stop him when he attacked the Sacred Realm.

We shouldn't wonder why they didn't stop someone who rightfully wanted to claim the Triforce his own. Rather we should be surprised that the *Twili's ancestors* were not allowed to claim it. There are no divine guidelines saying that evil persons mustn't get the Triforce - it's only the good people of Hyrule who have a problem with that. So, what is it that made the Twili's ancestors so abnormal that the Goddesses had to intervene?

Thing is, Ganondorf getting the Triforce of Power by itself may not make him "chosen", but having reside inside him after he obtains it is. Link got the Triforce of Courage in The Wind Waker and yet it was simply an item until the gods chose him. Combine this with the fact that Ganondorf has heard stories of the Twili, and you've got a guy who thinks himself "chosen" by the gods to be king. Basically all I'm saying is that there's nothing in "divine prank" that proves the "Ganondorf got the ToP at the AG" theory.

[TRIFORCE89]

I'm working on a personal side project. I know, it's not specifically in the game's text, but does anyone have access to the Japanese enemy names for TMC, TP, and PH?

This post has been edited by TRIFORCE89: 13 November 2007 - 06:59 PM

[MikePetersSucks]

I always figured that the Goddesses intervened because the Twili were raiding the Sacred Realm and trying to claim the Triforce for their entire species, instead of one or few people.

[Duke Serkol]

Think there's a passage in the Hylian Bible reading "We Goddesses do not support or tolerate any democracy upheld with our power"?
Just kidding, I realize the Twili's ancestors would have used it to elevate them above others (but how is it better if it's a single person doing that?)

[SOAP]

MikePetersSucks, on Nov 13 2007, 11:49 PM, said:

I always figured that the Goddesses intervened because the Twili were raiding the Sacred Realm and trying to claim the Triforce for their entire species, instead of one or few people.

Impossible. Since the Triforce only obeys the first person who touches it anyways and only if they have a balanced heart. Naturally it would go their leader. It wouldn't make sense for the Goddesses to intervene anymore than if it was a single person since by its design it can only have one owner.

A much more likely assumption is that the Fused Shadow was considered cheating somehow and the Goddesses were like "Oh hellz nah! We ain't we gonna have that in our house!"

[CID Farwin]

MikePetersSucks, on Nov 13 2007, 04:49 PM, said:

I always figured that the Goddesses intervened because the Twili were raiding the Sacred Realm and trying to claim the Triforce for their entire species, instead of one or few people.

I feel it's something like that; it might have something to do with how, in claiming the Triforce as their own they make themselves as a higher species than the Hylians, who we all know are the Goddesses' 'chosen people.'

Quote

Thing is, Ganondorf getting the Triforce of Power by itself may not make him "chosen", but having reside inside him after he obtains it is. Link got the Triforce of Courage in The Wind Waker and yet it was simply an item until the gods chose him. Combine this with the fact that Ganondorf has heard stories of the Twili, and you've got a guy who thinks himself "chosen" by the gods to be king. Basically all I'm saying is that there's nothing in "divine prank" that proves the "Ganondorf got the ToP at the AG" theory.

Looking through this thread, I don't think anyone here is arguing that theory(Thank goodness.) I think there needs to be some discussion on what exactly it means to be "chosen," but that belongs in a different topic.

[TRIFORCE89]

Answered my own question.

So, if anyone was wondering...

Ocarina of Time: http://www.bornfrome...colo/zo_mt.html
Majora's Mask: http://www.bornfrome...colo/zm_mt.html
The Wind Waker: http://www.bornfrome...colo/zt_mt.html
Twilight Princess: http://www.bornfrome...colo/zp_ms.html
Phantom Hourglass: http://www.bornfrome...colo/zd_ms.html

This post has been edited by TRIFORCE89: 13 November 2007 - 10:22 PM

[Jumbie]

SOAP, on Nov 13 2007, 02:30 AM, said:

There's a theory that the Twili and Gerudo are one and the same. I'm not so about this theory personally but the context clues in the games laeves room for such an interpretation.

Good thinking. In fact, only few days ago I became fond of the Twili = Gerudo theory. Now, the Japanese quotes will either cement this or put it to rest forever. Since you brought it up, I'll use this situation to post my results.

The first implication for Twili = Gerudo is that NoA described the goals of the Twili and of Ganondorf, respectively, with the very same expression:

- Wielding powerful sorcery, they tried to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm.
- He was the leader of a band of thieves who invaded Hyrule in the hopes of establishing dominion over the Sacred Realm.

In Japanese, however, these are worded entirely different:

- With powerful sorcery, they tried to rule the Sacred Realm.
- He was once a leader of thieves who invaded Hyrule in the hopes of laying his/their hands on the Sacred Realm.

While the statements don't differ, the choice of words sure does, showing that this implication through similarity was merely made up by NoA. With that out of the way, the only evidence left for the Twili = Gerudo theory is the quote you mentioned.

Here's what Midna tells Zant after defeating him: (translated Japanese in blue, NoA in brown)

Quote

教えてやるよ・・・オマエが長として認められなかったのは、その目だ！
I'll have you know... The reason why you were not accepted in the position of the leader, are your eyes!
You want to know why none would call you king? It was your eyes, Zant.

瞳の奥に潜む欲望が、古代の一族のように力に支配されると　王は危[?]したからさ！
That desire lying hidden in your pupils, like the clan of ancient times when they were controlled by power. Therefore the king feared [?] !
All saw it...a lust for power burning in your pupils... Did you think we'd forget our ancestors lost their king to such greed?

Well, there we have it - Japanese does by no means speak about an ancient king of the Twili, but rather about an obviously recent king, who feared something would happen if Zant would get to rule, just like it happened to their ancestors before. Sadly I cannot say what the king feared, the dump encrypts this. But it's certain that the mentioned king has nothing to do with the ancient clan, as they occur in two separate sentences.

I call that a *major* screw-up on NoA's part.
So, I think that puts the Twili = Gerudo theory to rest, since there simply was never a king whom the Twili lost to such greed. It was the localizers tossing the words around.

CID Farwin, on Nov 14 2007, 03:26 AM, said:

Quote

Basically all I'm saying is that there's nothing in "divine prank" that proves the "Ganondorf got the ToP at the AG" theory.

Looking through this thread, I don't think anyone here is arguing that theory(Thank goodness.)

Sorry, but at least one is... As for myself, I'm totally undecided as to when and how Ganondorf got the ToP.

TRIFORCE89, on Nov 14 2007, 04:21 AM, said:

Answered my own question.

So, if anyone was wondering...

Ocarina of Time: http://www.bornfrome...colo/zo_mt.html
Majora's Mask: http://www.bornfrome...colo/zm_mt.html
The Wind Waker: http://www.bornfrome...colo/zt_mt.html
Twilight Princess: http://www.bornfrome...colo/zp_ms.html
Phantom Hourglass: http://www.bornfrome...colo/zd_ms.html

Thank you, there'll be many happy faces about this!

This post has been edited by Jumbie: 14 November 2007 - 12:41 PM

[Prime Blue]

Again, nice find Jumbie!

A little side-note:
ゼルダの伝説 4つの剣+ (The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords+)
ハイラルアドベンチャー (Hyrule Adventure)
シャドウバトル (Shadow Battle)
ナビトラッカーズ (Navi Trackers)

The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventures
Hyrulean Adventure
Shadow Battle
Tetra's Trackers

This post has been edited by Prime Blue: 17 November 2007 - 01:29 AM

[CID Farwin]

Quote

Sorry, but at least one is...

*Hangs head*

Quote

As for myself, I'm totally undecided as to when and how Ganondorf got the ToP.

I'm pretty sure it's about the same time Link got the ToC.(not necessarily TP Link, mind you.)

[Duke Serkol]

Jumbie, on Nov 14 2007, 05:24 AM, said:

it's certain that the mentioned king has nothing to do with the ancient clan, as they occur in two separate sentences.

I call that a *major* screw-up on NoA's part.

You should also mention what you told me the other day, the the German localizers got that line right.

[Jumbie]

CID Farwin, on Nov 14 2007, 07:00 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure it's about the same time Link got the ToC.(not necessarily TP Link, mind you.)

Yes, that exactly used to be my firm belief. Now I'm not sure.

Duke Serkol, on Nov 14 2007, 07:18 PM, said:

You should also mention what you told me the other day, the the German localizers got that line right.

I thought that might come off as bragging But yes, the German version of that quote is:

"The greedy flicker in your eyes is to blame. The king feared you might fall victim to your powers... like our ancestors did!"

Out of all five languages, this comes closest to the Japanese. Hey, every dog has his day

[Fyxe]

I don't remember that line being in the version I played. Was it fixed in the NoE revision? Maybe not, it's hard to remember these sort of things.

[Arturo]

*sigh* Splitting the thread...

[Duke Serkol]

Fyxe, on Nov 14 2007, 08:38 PM, said:

I don't remember that line being in the version I played. Was it fixed in the NoE revision? Maybe not, it's hard to remember these sort of things.

I was expecting someone involved with this topic to answer this, but seeing as that didn't happen, I will: no, it was not fixed.

[Raien]

I haven't been debating here for a while, but can I just say very well done to Jumbie for the work he's put into translating the Japanese texts? I'm very interested in reading about the Trident. I hope we can establish how Ganondorf in FSA relates to his predecessor in OoT.

Am I on the right lines in thinking that Ganondorf in FSA is the evil spirit of Ganondorf from OoT that was revived by the power of the Trident? The inscription next to the Trident still sounds to me like it's heralding the arrival of Ganondorf to take the Trident.

This post has been edited by jhurvid: 15 November 2007 - 06:16 PM

[FDL]

Yeah, I'd also like to say that I really appreciate all the work Jumbie has done so the fans can clear up some stuff. Great job.

[Prime Blue]

While looking for some stuff to tag my Four Swords Adventures sound rip, I found something very interesting:

The King of Red Lions is one of the navigators the player can choose from in Navi Trackers/Tetra's Trackers. The sound track when you select him is officially named "ナビゲータ選択:赤獅子" which translates to "Navigator Select: Red Lion". They shortened his name from "赤獅子の王" to "赤獅子", omitting the "王/King" (and the "の" that was not a possessive particle in the first place but rather a suffix to connect the two terms). Therefore, his real name is Red Lion King, not King of Red Lions.

Interesting side note: This is analogous to the German translation "Roter Leuenkönig", which basically translates to "Red Lion King" ("Leu" is Middle High German and the origin of the modern word "Löwe" for "lion"). Gives me a little of my confidence in the German localization team back, although the psychic trauma from "Feuerberg" will most likely never go away.

Sure, it's no biggie. But interesting nonetheless.

This post has been edited by Prime Blue: 17 November 2007 - 01:45 AM

[Duke Serkol]

Prime Blue, on Nov 17 2007, 07:40 AM, said:

stuff to tag my Four Swords Adventures sound rip

FSA sound rip? Of sound effects? Like voice acting? I could use that!