[Raien]

Jumbie, on May 25 2008, 11:52 PM, said:

No honestly, that cannot be true. If Zant could have crossed the realms by his own power, he wouldn't have needed Ganondorf's. It certainly was thanks to him receiving Ganondorf's power.

Then why did Zant say that he hated the Twili Royal Family for not doing anything to recover the tribe's former glory? Clearly the power to invade the Light World was available to the Twili, but the Royal Family did not want to take that course of action. Zant could do nothing without their support... that is until he had Ganondorf's power to corrupt the Twili and transform them into shadow beasts. Ganondorf's power gave Zant his loyal army, thus taking the throne from Midna's family. This fits into the general symbolism, in my opinion.

Quote

My personal solution would be that Ganondorf's dying speech implies he already expected Zant to be unwilling to resurrect along with his master...

Why would he think that? Both Ganondorf and Zant knew that they could hold onto power by resurrecting each other, so why would Ganondorf think Zant unwilling?

This post has been edited by Raian: 25 May 2008 - 06:43 PM

[Hero of Legend]

Raian said:

Then why did Zant say that he hated the Twili Royal Family for not doing anything to recover the tribe's former glory? Clearly the power to invade the Light World was available to the Twili, but the Royal Family did not want to take that course of action.

Yes, Midna does say the gods forbade them to return to the light world. Why would they do that if they could not return? On the other hand, the Mirror of Twilight is the "only" link between the worlds, and I don't think Nintendo would want the ending ruined by Midna not needing it after all...

Quote

Why would he think that? Both Ganondorf and Zant knew that they could hold onto power by resurrecting each other, so why would Ganondorf think Zant unwilling?

And while on that subject, why didn't Ganondorf ressurect Zant? He must have known he was dead. And this opens the old question; who killed who? Did Ganondorf die because Zant was dead, or did he die because Zant wanted it? And if the latter, why did he want that?

[Raien]

Hero of Legend, on May 26 2008, 01:27 AM, said:

On the other hand, the Mirror of Twilight is the "only" link between the worlds, and I don't think Nintendo would want the ending ruined by Midna not needing it after all...

If the Mirror of Twilight is the physical embodiment of the link between the Light and Twilight Realms, then perhaps destroying the mirror completely severs the connection between realms, preventing anyone from crossing over even with magic.

This post has been edited by Raian: 25 May 2008 - 07:38 PM

[MikePetersSucks]

Quote

And that explains the significance of Zant's neck-snapping. Ugh, would it have killed NOA to explain Onmyoji for the Western players?

Yea, it probably would've. I kinda gave the barebones, but it's a whole damned religion known as Onmyodo.

Quote

I'm especially intrigued by that. Has it got to do with the glowing marks, or with the weird helmets they all wear?

Kinda, yea. The Twilight Curtain is basically one BIG ASS Keikai, or Barrier World, and the monsters in it seem to only be able to exist in said Keikai as Shikigami, artificial elementals created by an Onmyoji that only exist in specific conditions. Most of the monsters Zant commands are Shikigami of a sort, and the transfigured Twili can be classified as "possessed."

Quote

I was referring to the fact that NOA didn't explain Zant's ability to pass between realms. I always thought it was related to Ganondorf's power, but now I know it was available to him all along.

I never said THAT! Zant had the potential to wield such power, but it was not inherent to him.

[Raien]

MikePetersSucks, on May 26 2008, 02:17 AM, said:

I never said THAT! Zant had the potential to wield such power, but it was not inherent to him.

Oh, I understand now! Zant needed the Royal Family's magic to pass between realms, and that was why he wanted to be king! Okay, got it.

This post has been edited by Raian: 25 May 2008 - 08:23 PM

[Malu CLBS]

That Onmyoji theory is very interesting. We're lucky someone here knew about Japanese mythology, or else, how would we know now? Thanks, MPS

[MikePetersSucks]

Quote

Oh, I understand now! Zant needed the Royal Family's magic to pass between realms, and that was why he wanted to be king! Okay, got it.

Right, or Ganondorf's. an Onmyoji's magic is mostly taught, but what makes them special is that they usually have some sort of inherent magical ability to start with. In this case, Ganondorf may have zoomed in on Zant's hatred, which was so powerful that it could fuel Ganondorf's magic.

[Raien]

MikePetersSucks, on May 26 2008, 05:44 PM, said:

Right, or Ganondorf's. an Onmyoji's magic is mostly taught, but what makes them special is that they usually have some sort of inherent magical ability to start with. In this case, Ganondorf may have zoomed in on Zant's hatred, which was so powerful that it could fuel Ganondorf's magic.

Uhuh. It makes more sense when we consider it a pact between Zant and Ganondorf, as opposed to "Ganondorf entered Zant's body to revive", which was the popular concept until now. I never really liked that idea, though.

[Jumbie]

Raian, on May 26 2008, 01:39 AM, said:

Then why did Zant say that he hated the Twili Royal Family for not doing anything to recover the tribe's former glory? Clearly the power to invade the Light World was available to the Twili, but the Royal Family did not want to take that course of action. Zant could do nothing without their support... that is until he had Ganondorf's power to corrupt the Twili and transform them into shadow beasts. Ganondorf's power gave Zant his loyal army, thus taking the throne from Midna's family. This fits into the general symbolism, in my opinion.

It's unnecessary now that MPS explained it, but.. you shouldn't weigh every single of Zant's words. His calling the royal family "do-nothing" may just be due to his irrational hate. Or maybe he thinks they should've looked out for a powerful god who would free them.

Quote

Quote

My personal solution would be that Ganondorf's dying speech implies he already expected Zant to be unwilling to resurrect along with his master...

Why would he think that? Both Ganondorf and Zant knew that they could hold onto power by resurrecting each other, so why would Ganondorf think Zant unwilling?

I dunno. I'm only trying to reconcile Ganondorf's readiness to die with Zant apparently killing him...

Btw, for completeness sake, look at this depiction of two onmyouji:


His metal shoulder pads, the wide sleeves, and the little bows totally do it for me.^^

[Raien]

Jumbie, on May 27 2008, 08:40 AM, said:

It's unnecessary now that MPS explained it, but.. you shouldn't weigh every single of Zant's words. His calling the royal family "do-nothing" may just be due to his irrational hate. Or maybe he thinks they should've looked out for a powerful god who would free them.

What does the word "Do-nothing" mean? It means someone who is disrespected for doing nothing, and I don't see any reason not to take the word at face value since it fits the surrounding context perfectly.

This post has been edited by Raian: 27 May 2008 - 07:52 AM

[Fyxe]

I always thought Zant's dying speech made it pretty clear that what he and Ganondorf had going on was a pact of some kind. Ganondorf needed Zant to revive, and Zant needed Ganondorf to take over the Twilight Realm and invade Hyrule. The idea that it's based on a Japanese myth is of no surprise to me whatsoever. I tend to look at Nintendo games from a Japanese perspective. The stories make a lot more sense when you understand some of the underlying symbolism.

I've been sorta AwoL for awhile but I just thought I'd make a few comments...

Firstly, Serkol and the Satalliview stuff: very nice! Had no idea the old man was Aghina. Excellent work on translating all that, it just solidifies the theory of it occuring after or during LA. Having an actual time frame is great too. It all just emphasises that the game was not just a throwaway joke or anything. Heck, it arguably has more plot to it than FSA.

Secondly, the 'lost speech' of Ganondorf... I know it's discussed in another thread, but it's very interesting indeed, although very similar to OoT's ending with the threat of his return. The fact that Ganondorf states that one of 'his blood' will rise again is fascinating and does hint that there is more than one Ganondorf and not just one being revived. However, they presumably removed the speech for a reason. What reason, I don't know, but just because it's left in the game doesn't make it canon. I assume it was cut out of the Japanese game as well, yes? Maybe they turned agaisnt the idea of Ganondorf being reincarnated.

[NM87]

Fyxe, on May 27 2008, 07:50 AM, said:

Secondly, the 'lost speech' of Ganondorf... I know it's discussed in another thread, but it's very interesting indeed, although very similar to OoT's ending with the threat of his return. The fact that Ganondorf states that one of 'his blood' will rise again is fascinating and does hint that there is more than one Ganondorf and not just one being revived. However, they presumably removed the speech for a reason. What reason, I don't know, but just because it's left in the game doesn't make it canon. I assume it was cut out of the Japanese game as well, yes? Maybe they turned agaisnt the idea of Ganondorf being reincarnated.

It could give us better insight to what the developers were aiming for and I think it was only left out of the Englsh version of the game.

[Fyxe]

NM87, on May 27 2008, 04:43 PM, said:

I think it was only left out of the Englsh version of the game.

That's not the impression I got, but if Jumbie could clear this up, that's be great, because it makes a massive difference. What's canon in Japan takes prescedence over the localisations, after all. However, if it was just in the text dump of the Japanese game, that doesn't make it canon. That makes it removed, and much like many of the things removed from previous Zelda games but left in the code, it would not be canon. Interesting, and possibly an insight into some of the developer's intentions, but not canon.

[Hero of Legend]

It was removed from the Japanese version (or so I assume - I don't think anyone has checked with the Japanese game), and Jumbie already translated it. It's in the first post on the page before this one.

This post has been edited by Hero of Legend: 27 May 2008 - 12:14 PM

[LionHarted]

Fyxe, on May 27 2008, 07:50 AM, said:

Secondly, the 'lost speech' of Ganondorf... I know it's discussed in another thread, but it's very interesting indeed, although very similar to OoT's ending with the threat of his return. The fact that Ganondorf states that one of 'his blood' will rise again is fascinating and does hint that there is more than one Ganondorf and not just one being revived. However, they presumably removed the speech for a reason. What reason, I don't know, but just because it's left in the game doesn't make it canon. I assume it was cut out of the Japanese game as well, yes? Maybe they turned agaisnt the idea of Ganondorf being reincarnated.

Well, TP was originally supposed to precede TWW, and he would have to be resurrected (and retain the Triforce of Power) for that to happen.

[Duke Serkol]

Fyxe, on May 27 2008, 02:50 PM, said:

Firstly, Serkol and the Satalliview stuff: very nice! Had no idea the old man was Aghina. Excellent work on translating all that, it just solidifies the theory of it occuring after or during LA.

Thanks
There were doubst about the old dude for a while because of how much Agihna resembles the Japanese word for sage/wise person. Now finally we know for sure (and even established how closely related he is with Sasry)

Fyxe, on May 27 2008, 02:50 PM, said:

Heck, it arguably has more plot to it than FSA.

Secondly, the 'lost speech' of Ganondorf... I know it's discussed in another thread, but it's very interesting indeed, although very similar to OoT's ending with the threat of his return. The fact that Ganondorf states that one of 'his blood' will rise again is fascinating and does hint that there is more than one Ganondorf and not just one being revived. However, they presumably removed the speech for a reason. What reason, I don't know, but just because it's left in the game doesn't make it canon.

The blood bit was changed in the English translation, if I'm not mistaken. I wish we could find text like this from FSA as well. Apparently Miyamoto had them cut the ending shorter and simplify it because he felt a more elaborate ending would not fit a linear game.

[Jumbie]

Fyxe, on May 27 2008, 02:50 PM, said:

I assume it was cut out of the Japanese game as well, yes?

Yes. In each example of unused quotes I've seen so far, all the language versions took them out.

Raian, on May 27 2008, 02:17 PM, said:

What does the word "Do-nothing" mean? It means someone who is disrespected for doing nothing, and I don't see any reason not to take the word at face value since it fits the surrounding context perfectly.

Is MPS telling you so not enough reason? The Twilis did not have the necessary power to cross worlds. There was nothing the royal family could've done.

[Fyxe]

LionHarted, on May 27 2008, 07:14 PM, said:

Well, TP was originally supposed to precede TWW, and he would have to be resurrected (and retain the Triforce of Power) for that to happen.

I think the idea of TWW following TP was ditched well before they had the final script sorted out. Text like this was almost certainly removed very late in the process.

[LionHarted]

Fyxe, on May 27 2008, 03:43 PM, said:

I think the idea of TWW following TP was ditched well before they had the final script sorted out.

I think Ganondorf's role is too sloppy for it to have not been changed last-minute, which IMO would suggest otherwise.

Same goes for the Triforce marks.

This post has been edited by LionHarted: 27 May 2008 - 03:46 PM

[Raien]

Jumbie, on May 27 2008, 09:14 PM, said:

Is MPS telling you so not enough reason? The Twilis did not have the necessary power to cross worlds. There was nothing the royal family could've done.

The Royal Family had magic, and as Onmyoji, Zant could have become king and acquired that magic in order to travel between worlds. That was why Zant called the Royal Family "do-nothing", because they would not allow Zant to become king and thus acquire their magic to conquer the Light World.

If you read back on the conversation between MPS and myself, he accepted that this works.

This post has been edited by Raian: 27 May 2008 - 05:02 PM

[Fyxe]

LionHarted, on May 27 2008, 09:44 PM, said:

I think Ganondorf's role is too sloppy for it to have not been changed last-minute, which IMO would suggest otherwise.

No, the game doesn't even vaguely lead into TWW, and no dialogue changes could change that. The fact is, the only piece of missing dialogue left in the game is that one fairly inconsequential set of lines. That's it. If they had made large plot changes near the end, there'd be a lot more than just that. You can't change the ending just by changing the dialogue. Ganondorf's dead, nobody's sealed, it doesn't lead into TWW, and him being reincarnated doesn't lead into TWW either.

[Raien]

Ganondorf: "Link! If you strike me now, I'll become more powerful than you can imagine!"

[Jumbie]

Raian, on May 28 2008, 12:01 AM, said:

The Royal Family had magic, and as Onmyoji, Zant could have become king and acquired that magic in order to travel between worlds. That was why Zant called the Royal Family "do-nothing", because they would not allow Zant to become king and thus acquire their magic to conquer the Light World.

If you read back on the conversation between MPS and myself, he accepted that this works.

He said, "Right, or Ganondorf's", continuing to focus on the Ganondorf explanation (which incidentally has always been the much more obvious explanation), so I thought he meant to subtly get you on the right track.

Fyxe, on May 28 2008, 01:02 AM, said:

The fact is, the only piece of missing dialogue left in the game is that one fairly inconsequential set of lines. That's it. If they had made large plot changes near the end, there'd be a lot more than just that.

Oh, that's not so actually. I still have to check-translate those three pages full of unused Twili quotes...


But now, let's get to the Sheikah and Oocca stuff in TP. Impal has an awful lot to tell, and some of it is pretty interesting:

Quote

獣どもの鳴き声が消えた・・・
The howls of the beasts have faded…
The howls of the beasts… They've faded into silence…

もしかして、あなたが・・・？　おお、救世主じゃ　あなたは、まさに救世主じゃ！
Are you perhaps…? Ohh, the saviour. Certainly you are the saviour!
Wait, are you… The savior! It's you, the savior!

どうか、扉を開けなかったこと・・・許して下され
Please, please forgive me…for not opening up the door.
Please, please forgive me…for not opening up the door.

私は、この村に住むインパルという者です
I am Impal, the one who lives in this village.
My name is Impaz. I'm the last resident of this poor village.

その昔、この村をおつくりになった偉い御方の名前をもらいました・・・
My name comes from the great one who built this village so long ago…
My name comes from the great one who built this village so long ago…

この村は　訳あって　王家に仕えた一族が　住んでいた隠れ里でしたが・・・
This village was the secret home of a clan who served the royal family, but…
This village was once the secret home of a proud tribe who served the royal family…

今は荒れ果て、あのような魔物がうろつく物騒な場所になってしまったのです
Now it is ruined and has become a dangerous place where that sort of beast loiters.
But it fell into decline, and became infested with dangerous beasts. It's become an awful place…

失礼ですが・・・あなたのお名前は　[Link]と言うのでは・・・？
It is impolite, but…is your name Link, then…?
Excuse me for asking, but is your name…Link?

おお、やはり・・・では、あの娘は助かったんですね？・・・よかった
Ohh, as I thought… So then, you saved that girl, right? …That was good.
Ah! I knew it… So then, you saved that nice girl? …How lovely.

あの娘は、ここに捕まっている時いつも、あなたが助けに来てくれると私を励ましてくれました
When she was being held here, she would often cheer me up by saying that you would come to help.
When she was here, she would often cheer me up by saying that you would come to help.

村から逃がしてあげる時も最後まで　この老婆のことを気遣ってくれて・・・
She worried about this old woman all up to when she was let escape from the village…
That sweet girl… She worried about this old woman even as I helped her to escape from here…

ただ、私は　王家の命により　あるお方が現れるのを待っているため
I, however, by decree of the royal family, wait until a certain person arrives.
By royal order, I can't leave this place until a certain person arrives.

どんな酷い目に遭おうと　この村を離れるわけにはいかなかったのです
Whatever terrible fate it may encounter, I cannot leave this village.
…No matter what terrible fate is visited upon it…

そうじゃ、コレをあの娘に返してもらえませんか？
So, could you return this to that girl?
Oh, but listen to me blather on! I have a favor to ask: would you help me return this to her?

あの娘が　肌身離さず大切にしていた物を　この老いぼれのために貸してくれたんです
She lent the thing she always carried and cherished to this old dodderer.
I think she always kept it close to her heart, but even so, she didn't hesitate to part with it in order to protect me…

私が今まで無事でいられたのは　それのおかげだと思っております・・・
I believe it's thanks to this that I've been kept safe until now…
I believe in my heart that it's kept me safe all this time…

どうか、よろしくお願いします必ず　あの娘に渡してくだされ
Please, I ask that you make sure to return it to that girl.
So please… I ask that you return it to that girl.

どうか、あの娘に首飾りを渡してください
Please, return the necklace to that girl.
That dear girl deserves her charm back.

そして、この老いぼれが　感謝していたと　伝えてくだされ
And tell her that this old dodderer was very grateful.
…And tell her that this old biddy was very grateful.

Okay, up to here pretty dull. But it gets better!

Quote

おおっ！　その杖は、もしや・・・コピーロッドと呼ばれる杖では・・・？
Ohhh! That rod, by any chance… is it called Copy Rod…?
Hey! That rod… Is that the Dominion Rod?

おお・・・まさか。あなたが天空への使者だったとは！
Ohh… Well, I never! You are the messenger to the sky!
Ahh… Could it really be? Are you the messenger to the heavens?!

我が一族の言い伝えによると　昔、王家がまだ天空と交流があった時代
According to the legends of my clan, in the past there was an epoch when the royal family still maintained cultural exchange with the sky.
Among the legends of my clan, there is a story from the time when the Oocca still maintained contact with the royal family.

天空の者より、不思議な力を秘めた杖を　献上されたそうです。その杖は　コピーロッドと呼ばれ・・・
A rod containing a mysterious power was handed down from the people of the sky. That rod was called the Copy Rod…
Yes, it said that a mysterious rod was handed down from the people of the sky, and it was called the Dominion Rod…

王家が天空へ使いを送る時に　王家が認めた天空への使者のみが　その杖を持つことを　許されました
When the royal family sent a message to the sky, they only permitted an approved messenger to the sky to carry that rod.
The rod was only to be carried by the messenger to the heavens when the royal family needed to communicate with the Oocca.

そして、我が一族は　王家の命により　天空への使者が必要とする、ある書物を　代々　守ってきたのです
And my clan, from generation to generation by royal decree, has guarded a certain book needed by the messenger to the sky.
From generation to generation, my ancestors have guarded the book that, by royal decree, was to be given to the messenger to the heavens.

これが、その書物です。どうぞ　お受け取りくだされ
This is that book. Please, take it.
This is that book. Please, take it.

Quote

天空の古文書を　手に入れた！
You got the historic documents of the sky!
You got the Ancient Sky Book!

古の天空語で記された書物　ところどころ　言葉が欠けている・・・
A book written in the ancient sky language. Here and there it is missing words…
A book written in the ancient Sky language. A word in it seems to be missing letters…

Quote

その書物は、古の天空語で　書かれているそうです
This book is written in the ancient sky language.
This book is written in the ancient language of Sky Writing.

この里を離れなくて　本当によかった・・・もし、あの娘に会っていなかったら　今の私はなかったでしょう
It's truly fortunate that I didn't leave this village… If I had not met that girl, what would have become of me?
I am so glad I stayed in this village… If I had not met that young girl, what would have become of me?

あの娘との出会いは、きっと　このことを知らせる　神のお導きだったのかも知れません・・・
Meeting that girl must have been ordained by the gods to make sure this would be passed on…
Meeting that girl must have been ordained by the gods, so that I could be here today to pass on this knowledge…

天空の古文書を　あなたに渡すことができて　本当によかった・・・
It's truly fortunate that I am able to pass on the historic documents of the sky to you…
Yes, I was meant to pass on that ancient book from the heavens to you…

Notes:
- The royal family maintained cultural exchange with the sky, not just contact.
- Note how the messenger had to be approved.
- It is specified that book was needed by the messenger.
- "People of the sky" doesn't have to refer to the Oocca alone, it may include TMC's Wind People.
- The book is given a title and/or description: the historic documents of the sky. This explains what the messenger needed it for: to note down the conversations between the Hylians and the sky people.
- Japanese says that the book is missing several words, not just letters.
- The name of the ancient language is not Sky Writing.

This post has been edited by Jumbie: 27 May 2008 - 11:41 PM

[MikePetersSucks]

Quote

The Royal Family had magic, and as Onmyoji, Zant could have become king and acquired that magic in order to travel between worlds. That was why Zant called the Royal Family "do-nothing", because they would not allow Zant to become king and thus acquire their magic to conquer the Light World.

If you read back on the conversation between MPS and myself, he accepted that this works.

No, I didn't. The Twili can't warp between worlds like that, it's why they need the mirror.

[Duke Serkol]

Jumbie, on May 28 2008, 06:40 AM, said:

- "People of the sky" doesn't have to refer to the Oocca alone, it may include TMC's Wind People.
- The book is given a title and/or description: the historic documents of the sky. This explains what the messenger needed it for: to note down the conversations between the Hylians and the sky people.

It should be noted that "People of the Sky" is the Japanese name of the Oocca, is it not? So this consideration would apply to anything that is said about them in the game, not just this conversation.
Also I'd replace the word "explains" with "suggests"

MikePetersSucks, on May 28 2008, 08:01 AM, said:

No, I didn't. The Twili can't warp between worlds like that, it's why they need the mirror.

I think so as well.

[Raien]

MikePetersSucks, on May 28 2008, 07:01 AM, said:

No, I didn't. The Twili can't warp between worlds like that, it's why they need the mirror.

I think you're all getting confused on what I'm suggesting.

The Twili in general don't have the ability to travel between realms.
But Zant, as Onmyoji (master of Light and Darkness), has that ability. All Zant needs is magical power in order to use that ability; to travel between realms.
The Twili Royal Family possess magical power; they cannot travel between realms with it, but Zant can using his ability.
Zant was in line for the throne, because of his Onmyoji status, and in that position, Zant would acquire the Royal Family's magic power, which would allow him to work his ability to travel between realms.
The Royal Family saw the greed in Zant's eyes, and so they wouldn't allow him to become king and acquire their magic. Zant left the court in a state of malice, and Ganondorf gave him his own magical power instead.

MPS, does this not work? Why (if it doesn't work)?

[Fyxe]

This is straying distinctly deep into fanfic for my likin'. o.o

[Raien]

Fyxe, on May 28 2008, 02:18 PM, said:

This is straying distinctly deep into fanfic for my likin'. o.o

I'm just trying to make sense of what Zant says. And this isn't just a single sentence that can be overlooked; this is an entire section of dialogue upon the revelation of Zant's true nature as a character, and the events that led to Zant making his pact with Ganondorf.

Zant said that since the Dark Tribe's sealing, the Twili were leading a half-existence in the Twilight Realm and that their former glory should be restored to them. But how can Zant expect the tribe's former glory to be restored if access to the Light World was unavailable before Ganondorf's arrival? How can Zant blame the Royal Family for something that they have no control over? We know from the translation that Zant wanting to be king is part of this, and from what I can see, the Royal Family's magic would be essential if Zant had the ability to travel between realms but not the magical power.

This post has been edited by Raian: 28 May 2008 - 09:40 AM

[Mourngriever]

Why would the Goddesses allow any of the Twili to have the ability to go back to the world of Light? It's like locking up a murderer but giving him the key to escape his prison.

[FDL]

I think we should keep in mind Zant's crazy. He doesn't need a legitimate reason to hate the Royal Family.