[Jumbie]

Just for completeness' sake, I should dump TP Ganondorf's dying speech here as well, but you've seen it in the other thread, so please debate it there.

Quote

選ばれし力を持つ者が現れる時
When one who holds the chosen power appears...
When the chosen ones appear...

必ず、その対極を成す者が生まれ出ん
Necessarily, one to accomplish the antithesis of that will be born.
They are always born into this world in perfect balance.

それが、お前達が信じる神が与えた紋章を持つ者の運命だ
That is the fate of those who bear the crests that were awarded by the gods you believe in.
That is the destiny of the chosen. That is the fate decreed by your gods, the only path for those who bear their crests.

この世に紋章を持つ者が現れる限り
Whenever those bearing the crests appear in this world...
When this world brings forth another marked as you are...

何度でも、流血の時代が訪れる
An age of bloodshed will come, as often as need be.
Know too, that it shall also be visited by one of my blood.

これで、全てが終わったと思うなよ
Do not think everything ends with this...
Do not think this ends here...

これが、光と闇の血塗られた歴史の始まりだと思え！
Think of this as the beginning of a bloodsmeared history of light and darkness!
The history of light and shadow will be written in blood!

- Note that my choices of singular and plural regarding the chosen ones were done by personal reasoning. It's ambiguous in Japanese.
- I think we can safely accept this removed passage as canon. It does nothing but add some more sense to TP.



I haven't come empty-handed though. Here's another passage from TP, what Midna tells the sages before entering the Shadow World:

Midna said:

影の世界っていうのはさ・・・あの世とか　言われたりするけど・・・そうじゃないんだ
The Shadow World… they act like it's the otherworld or something… however, that's not so.
Some call our realm a world of shadows, but that makes it sound unpleasant.

本当は、この世界の黄昏時のような穏やかで、綺麗な所なんだ・・・
In truth it's a beautiful place, calm like the hour of twilight in this world…
The twilight there holds a serene beauty… You have seen it yourself as the sun sets on this world.

住む者は皆　その黄昏の輝きの中で　清らかな心と、穏やかな姿を持っていた…
Everyone living in the glow of that twilight had a pure heart and a gentle appearance…
Bathed in that light, all people were pure and gentle.

だけど・・・変わってしまった　あの邪悪な魔力の出現によって・・・
But… things changed with the arrival of that evil magic…
But things changed once that power invaded the world.

Sages said:

全ては　我々の過ち・・・
It was all our fault.
It was all our doing.

賢者としての力を過信し　邪悪なる魔力を制御しようとした・・・
Overestimating our power as sages, we attempted to control the evil magic…
We overestimated our abilities as sages and attempted to put an end to Ganondorf's evil magic.

どうか、浅はかな我らを　許して欲しい・・・
Please, we hope you forgive our carelessness…
I hope you can find it in yourself to forgive our carelessness.

黄昏の姫君よ
O Twilight Princess.
O Twilight Princess.

Midna said:

なんだ・・・知ってたんだ
What… you knew?
What? So…you knew?

一族を統べる身でありながら　逃げ出したワタシにその資格はないよ
While I am the ruler of my clan, my fleeing disqualifies me to do so!
As a ruler who fled her people, I am hardly qualified to forgive you.

ワタシの世界ではね、勇者は　神獣となって現れると信じられてきた
In my world, it has been believed that a hero appears as a divine beast.
In our world we've long believed that the Hero would appear as a divine beast.

だから、[Link]を見つけた時　利用してやろうと思ったんだ
That's why when I found Link I thought I could use him.
That's why when I found you I thought I could use you, Link.

それで、自分の世界だけを　取り戻せばいいと・・・
So, when I was only going to regain my own world…
And I only cared about returning our world to normal.

光の世界がどうなろうと　かまわなかった
I didn't care what happened to the world of light.
I didn't care what happened to the world of light, not at all.

だけど、身を呈してまで人々を救おうとする　ゼルダ姫や[Link]に会って…
But after meeting Princess Zelda and Link who sacrificed themselves to save the people…
But after witnessing the selfless lengths that Princess Zelda and you have gone to… Your sacrifices…

今は、心の底から、この世界を救いたいと思っている
I now feel, in the bottom of my heart, that I want to save this world.
I now know, in the bottom of my heart, that I must save this world, too. There is no other way.

ザントさえ倒せば　ワタシにかけられた呪いは消え、ゼルダに力を返すことができる
If only we defeat Zant, we can dissolve the curse cast on me, and return to Zelda her power.
If we can just defeat Zant, the curse on me will dissolve, and we may be able to revive Zelda.

[Link]行こう！　ゼルダやこの世界の人々のために！
Let's go, Link! For Zelda and the people of this world!
Let's go, Link! For Zelda! For all of this world!

Notes:
- So that explains why Rusl and Auru (and probably all Hyrulians) think of the Shadow World as being hell - they just don't know any better, with the mirror being kept at an execution place and all.
- Funny how Midna says the Twilis have a gentle appearance... She must be speaking for herself
- The Japanese text shows that the sages only regret abusing the mirror to send Ganondorf into Midna's world, not their attempt at executing him: "control evil magic" vs. "put an end to evil magic".
Firstly this removes any evidence of the divine prank being a punishment for the sages, secondly it is further evidence that the mirror was not used to banish criminals other than the mages and Ganondorf.
- The way the sages address Midna as a princess, 姫君, seems to imply that she does come from the royal family (there have been theories that she was never supposed to be the ruler if it hadn't been for Zant's being greedy).
- Instead of reviving Zelda, they just need to return power to her.

[Raien]

Fantastic work, Jumbie! This fits perfectly with our deductions from the previous translations.

I can see why Ganondorf's speech was removed; it suggests knowledge and wisdom that conflicts with Ganondorf's greedy character. But the information itself is valid if that is how the developers explain events. One thing that interests me is that Ganondorf refers to TP's events as a "beginning" for light and darkness. Anyone reckon this could be a hint of sorts?

[Duke Serkol]

Jumbie, on May 16 2008, 07:26 AM, said:

- The Japanese text shows that the sages only regret abusing the mirror to send Ganondorf into Midna's world, not their attempt at executing him: "control evil magic" vs. "put an end to evil magic".
Firstly this removes any evidence of the divine prank being a punishment for the sages

Actually I would say this is not so much implied by the above line as much as by Ganondorf's statement that others bearing the mark will unfailingly appear in time (two in response to a first).
But even so, this is debatable I think.

Jumbie, on May 16 2008, 07:26 AM, said:

- Instead of reviving Zelda, they just need to return power to her.

It figures. Ah NoA...
Still, I wish the game would explain why she disappears like that

Raian, on May 16 2008, 03:41 PM, said:

One thing that interests me is that Ganondorf refers to TP's events as a "beginning" for light and darkness. Anyone reckon this could be a hint of sorts?

I sure do, and did even before now. After all, seeing as TP happens (I'm sure just about everyone agrees about this) after MM, meaning the events of "Adult OoT" did not come to pass, this was really the first great adventure in Hyrule (MC being a tiny adventure ), the first clash between Link and Ganon(dorf).
And of course, the additional details about why and how this marks the beginning of a bloodsmeared history only serve to suggest further that the other games not in the adult timeline are to follow (which to me means everything except TWW and PH).

This post has been edited by Duke Serkol: 16 May 2008 - 09:41 AM

[CID Farwin]

Duke Serkol, on May 16 2008, 08:36 AM, said:

Still, I wish the game would explain why she disappears like that

Indeed.

Quote

And of course, the additional details about why and how this marks the beginning of a bloodsmeared history only serve to suggest further that the other games not in the adult timeline are to follow (which to me means everything except TWW and PH).

No, you're crazy; it clearly doesn't imply anything!

I'd say either it foreshadows that the pre-OoT games are meant to come after, or that Nintendo plans to make more games after TP (or *gasp* both????)

I still say, though, (as I have in the other thread) that we won't know anything for sure until the next game comes out.

[Malu CLBS]

Duke Serkol, on May 16 2008, 09:36 AM, said:

Still, I wish the game would explain why she disappears like that

And how she magically appears in the castle...

BTW, I'm still reading at least this thread as frequently as I can. My job takes a lot of my free time. Thanks for all the translations, Jumbie!

[Jumbie]

Malu CLBS, on May 21 2008, 05:05 AM, said:

Duke Serkol, on May 16 2008, 09:36 AM, said:

Still, I wish the game would explain why she disappears like that

And how she magically appears in the castle...

Hm, technically she jumps from one tower to the other... which is weird still...

Quote

BTW, I'm still reading at least this thread as frequently as I can. My job takes a lot of my free time. Thanks for all the translations, Jumbie!

Raian, on May 16 2008, 03:41 PM, said:

Fantastic work, Jumbie!

I really appreciate it!

Quote

One thing that interests me is that Ganondorf refers to TP's events as a "beginning" for light and darkness. Anyone reckon this could be a hint of sorts?

I may have something of interest for you:

Voice in OoT said:

闇の神殿…　それは　ハイラルの血塗られた闇の歴史…　欲望と怨念の集まりしところ…
Temple of Darkness… This is the gathering place of Hyrule's bloodsmeared history of darkness… of greed and of grudge…
Shadow Temple… Here is gathered Hyrule's bloody history of greed and hatred…

Prior to OoT it was a "bloodsmeared history of darkness", after TP it's a "bloodsmeared history of light and darkness"...

[Raien]

Jumbie, on May 22 2008, 03:31 AM, said:

I may have something of interest for you:

Voice in OoT said:

闇の神殿…　それは　ハイラルの血塗られた闇の歴史…　欲望と怨念の集まりしところ…
Temple of Darkness… This is the gathering place of Hyrule's bloodsmeared history of darkness… of greed and of grudge…
Shadow Temple… Here is gathered Hyrule's bloody history of greed and hatred…

Prior to OoT it was a "bloodsmeared history of darkness", after TP it's a "bloodsmeared history of light and darkness"...

The words are similar, but they're said in different contexts.
The OoT line is said in the Temple of Darkness, which is where Hyrule's Darkness has been sealed away, so naturally it is going to contain the history of Darkness in Hyrule.
TP Ganondorf, on the other hand, was referring to the fight between the chosen wielders of power, so light and darkness play equal roles in that fighting.

Sorry, I'm not convinced this means anything important.

This post has been edited by Raian: 21 May 2008 - 10:28 PM

[Jumbie]

Raian, on May 22 2008, 05:27 AM, said:

Sorry, I'm not convinced this means anything important.

And I was not trying to. I know that the two quotes cannot possibly have a relation. I just wanted to bring to your attention the similar wording used in OoT.

[Erimgard]

I'd just like to thank you, Jumbie, for all the great translations you've done.

I'm particularly pleased with your confirmation of Aganhim being soul-split, proper translation of the Trident inscription, and you're translations regarding Arbiter's Grounds. I frequently reference them to other people, and the Trident inscription helped my timeline out quite a bit.

[Jumbie]

Erimgard, on May 23 2008, 12:23 AM, said:

I'd just like to thank you, Jumbie, for all the great translations you've done.

I'm particularly pleased with your confirmation of Aganhim being soul-split, proper translation of the Trident inscription, and you're translations regarding Arbiter's Grounds. I frequently reference them to other people, and the Trident inscription helped my timeline out quite a bit.

Oh, that's very nice to hear! I realize I'm personally not doing much to spread my work, so that's always cool.^^

Today I have a text from TP that might have some relevance to current debates. Or it might not. Anyway, here is Zelda's sacrifice:

Midna said:

お願いだ・・・こいつに　かけられた呪いの解き方を・・・教えてくれ・・・
Please… Please tell me… a way to lift the curse cast on this one…
Please… Please tell me… How do we break…the curse on this one?

こいつは・・・アンタ達の世界を救う為には　絶対に・・・必要な・・・奴なんだ！
This…is the one…who is absolutely…indispensable to save your world!
This…is the one… You need him…to save your world!

だから・・・姫さん・・・頼むよ　[Link]を助けてやってくれよ！
That's why… Princess… I beg you, you must help Link!
That's why… Princess… Please… You must help Link…

Zelda said:

これは、今までの影の魔力とは違う　何か別の　邪悪なる力・・・
That is an evil power differing from the previous shadow magic…
What binds him is a different magic than what transformed him when he first passed the curtain of twilight. It is an evil power.

現世に　闇を照らす光があるように　魔の力には　それを撃退する力が存在します
In this world, just as there is light that illuminates the darkness, there exists a power that repulses demonic powers.
Our world is one of balance… Just as there is light to drive away darkness, so, too, is there benevolence to banish evil.

精霊フィローネが守りし地の奥に隠された　森の聖域に向かいなさい
Head for the sacred forest precincts hidden deep within the lands guarded by the spirit Firoone.
Head for the sacred grove that lies deep within the lands guarded by the spirit Faron.

そこには、古の賢者達によって造られた　退魔の剣　マスターソードが眠っています
There lies sleeping the blade of demons' bane, the Master Sword, crafted by the ancient sages.
There you will find the blade of evil's bane that was crafted by the wisdom of the ancient sages… the Master Sword.

マスターソードは　悪しき者が　決して触れることのできぬ聖剣
The Master Sword is a sacred blade that evil ones can never touch.
The Master Sword is a sacred blade that evil can never touch.

しかし、貴方なら　その剣によって　その身を覆う魔を斬り裂くことが　できるはずです
You, however, should be able with that sword to cleave the demon who cloaks your body.
Evil cloaks you like a dark veil...and that blade is the only thing that can cleave it.

神が遣わしたる勇者 [Link]
Link, hero sent by the goddesses.
Link… Hero sent by the goddesses…

私もまた、貴方と同じ　神より授かりし力を持つ者・・・
Like you, I am a bearer of the power granted by the god(desse)s…
Like you, I have been granted special powers by the goddesses…

Midna said:

よかったな・・・[Link]・・・後は、一人で行けるよな・・・？
Fine… Link… Can you go alone from here…?
Fine… Link… You can… You can get to the woods…on your own, right?

なあ、姫さん・・・最後に　頼みがあるんだ・・・
So, Princess… I have one last request…
Princess… I have one last request…

こいつに、陰りの鏡がある場所を　教えてやってくれないか・・・？
Couldn't you tell this guy the whereabouts of the Mirror of Gloom…?
Can you tell him…where to find the Mirror of Twilight?

Zelda said:

ミドナ・・・貴女が何者であるのか、わかったような気がします・・・
Midna… I believe I have understood who you are…
Midna… I believe I understand now just who and what you are…

・・・こんなに傷つきながらも　私達の代わりに、貴女は・・・
…In spite of being so wounded, you in our stead…
Despite your mortal injuries, you act in our stead…

今まで、随分と　辛い目にあわせてしまいましたね・・・
…have gone through extreme hardships up to here…
These dark times are the result of our deeds, yet it is you who have reaped the penalty.

ミドナ　受け取ってください　これを、貴女に・・・
Midna, please accept this, it's for you…
Accept this now, Midna. I pass it to you…

Midna said:

バカ！　そんなことしたら・・・！　[Link]　止めろ！！
You fool! To do such a thing…! Link, stop her!!
No! Link! STOP HER!

[Link]　戻ろう！　フィローネの森に！！
We go back, Link! To Firoone Woods!!
We go back, Link! Back to Faron Woods!

ゼルダ・・・アンタの全て　確かに、受け取ったよ・・・
Zelda… I really have received your everything…!
Zelda… I've taken all that you had to give…though I did not want it.

Notes:
- In the NoA translation, Zelda says that Light and Darkness are in a state of balance in the Zelda universe, whereas the Japanese version makes no such reference. Raian found this important because the line suggests that Darkness has a positive role to play in the world in co-operation with Light, which he thinks contradicts many symbols present in the mythology.

- When Zelda says she is a bearer of the power, the wording is the same as when Zant speaks about the power granted by his god:
　　　神より授かりし力 =　power granted by the gods
我が神より授かりし力 =　power granted by my god
So did Ganondorf share the "power of the gods" with Zant?

- Midna is very rude, I must say. First speaking about Link like he was a thing (こいつ), then calling Zelda a fool (バカ)...

- Zelda's phrase "These dark times are the result of our deeds" doesn't actually occur.

This post has been edited by Jumbie: 01 June 2008 - 07:04 PM

[Erimgard]

I think Ganondorf likely granted some power to Zant, [power which he obtained from the ToP] but I really don't see anything to suggest that Zant obtained the ToP itself.
I also find it interesting that the Japanese text says the Master Sword lies sleeping...similar wording to aLttP.

[Raien]

Jumbie, on May 24 2008, 01:48 AM, said:

- Zelda's phrase "These dark times are the result of our deeds" doesn't actually occur.

That makes sense; it wasn't the fault of anyone but the Dark Tribe for their imprisonment. Now would be an awesome time to translate what Zelda and Midna say at the very end of TP, since the NOA translation suggested the same theme.

[Jumbie]

Raian, on May 24 2008, 03:06 AM, said:

Now would be an awesome time to translate what Zelda and Midna say at the very end of TP, since the NOA translation suggested the same theme.

Mkay:

Midna said:

なんだよ？　何とか言えよ　あんまり綺麗すぎて・・・言葉がでないか？
What? Say something! Am I so beautiful… that you've no words left?
What? Say something! Am I so beautiful that you've no words left?

Phew, good to know the best quote of the game is all right.^^

Midna said:

これで、お別れだな
This is farewell.
Well…I guess this is farewell, huh?

所詮、光と影は　交わっちゃいけないんだ
Light and shadow aren't supposed to associate, after all.
Light and shadow can't mix, as we all know.

・・・だけど、この世には、もう一つの世界があるって　ことを・・・忘れないでくれよ
…But never forget… that there's another world to this one!
But… Never forget that there's another world bound to this one.

Zelda said:

光と影は、表裏一体・・・
Light and shadow are two sides of the same thing…
Shadow and light are two sides of the same coin…

どちらが欠けても　成り立ちはしないもの・・・
With one missing, nothing will come about…
One cannot exist without the other.

神がこの世に　陰りの鏡を残されたのは・・・
As for the goddesses leaving the Mirror of Gloom in this world…
I know now the reason the goddesses left the Mirror of Twilight in this world…

それは、きっと　我々の出会いを繋ぐためなのだと・・・
That surely was done in order to prompt our encounter…
They left it because it was their design that we should meet.

私は、そう信じています
I do believe so.
Yes... That is what I believe.

Midna said:

ゼルダ・・・アンタ、いい人だな
Zelda… You're a good person.
Zelda… Your words are kind, and your heart is true.

ハイラルが、みんな　アンタみたいな人なら　うまくやっていけるかもな・・・
If all in Hyrule are like you, then maybe you'll do all right…
If all in Hyrule are like you… Then maybe you'll do all right.

ありがとうな・・・姫さんが、言ったろ　鏡がある限り、また会えるって・・・
Thank you… The princess said it: as long as the mirror exists, we could meet again…
Thank you… Well, the princess spoke truly: as long as that mirror's around, we could meet again…

[Link] ・・・ま・・・またな・・・
[Link]… S…see you…
[Link]… I… See you later…

[MikePetersSucks]

Quote

しかし、貴方なら　その剣によって　その身を覆う魔を斬り裂くことが　できるはずです
You, however, should be able with that sword to cleave the demon who cloaks your body.
Evil cloaks you like a dark veil...and that blade is the only thing that can cleave it.

Ha ha, nice. This actually supports some of my personal theories of Zelda cosmology correlating to Japanese mythology.

Zant = Onmyoji. That has huger consequences than I can imagine right now, especially given the Light/Twilight dualism.

[NM87]

This is from long ago but…can LA actually/possibly go after MM? The Japanese only said you stopped Hyrule from the demonic king of evil Ganon...and isn't that what OOT Link had done, albeit in another reality? Plus, we know OOT Link has bad dreams concerning Ganon. ALTTP Link also has bad dreams, but you know. Not that I want it to go after MM, its just something to think about.

[MikePetersSucks]

Given what Link experiences in the dream world of Koholint, OOT Link is highly, highly unlikely. Plus the two Links look nothing alike.

[Raien]

MikePetersSucks, on May 24 2008, 05:40 AM, said:

Quote

しかし、貴方なら　その剣によって　その身を覆う魔を斬り裂くことが　できるはずです
You, however, should be able with that sword to cleave the demon who cloaks your body.
Evil cloaks you like a dark veil...and that blade is the only thing that can cleave it.

Ha ha, nice. This actually supports some of my personal theories of Zelda cosmology correlating to Japanese mythology.

Zant = Onmyoji. That has huger consequences than I can imagine right now, especially given the Light/Twilight dualism.

Could you explain the significance of it to us, please MPS?

[Jumbie]

NM87, on May 24 2008, 07:43 AM, said:

This is from long ago but…can LA actually/possibly go after MM?

Yes, it could. But not in this thread!

MikePetersSucks, on May 24 2008, 06:40 AM, said:

Ha ha, nice. This actually supports some of my personal theories of Zelda cosmology correlating to Japanese mythology.

Zant = Onmyoji. That has huger consequences than I can imagine right now, especially given the Light/Twilight dualism.

Let me see... Onmyouji, translating to "master of yin and yang", would be 陰陽師... I notice that the first kanji, 陰 (dark side), is the same as in 陰りの鏡 (Mirror of Gloom).

To cite Wikipedia:

Quote

Onmyōji were specialists in magic and divination. Their court responsibilities ranged from tasks such as keeping track of the calendar, to mystical duties such as divination and protection of the capital from evil spirits. They could divine auspicious or harmful influences in the earth, and were instrumental in the moving of capitals. It is said that an onmyōji could also summon and control shikigami.

So you suggest Zant had that position at the Twili palace?

[Raien]

If Zant has mastery of the connection between Light and Shadow, does that explain why he has the ability to pass between the Light and Twilight Realms?

This post has been edited by Raian: 24 May 2008 - 12:11 PM

[LionHarted]

Jumbie, on May 24 2008, 11:32 AM, said:

So you suggest Zant had that position at the Twili palace?

More than likely this was the same position Agahnim held in ALttP.

[MikePetersSucks]

Yes, I am suggesting that. Not only does this imply that Zant has the power to travel between realms to some extent (which he demonstrates with his direct teleportation), but all of his powers tie into that of an Onmyoji's, including the weird reality-warping of his boss battle. And as Master of Ying and Yang, or Light and Shadow, he was probably the prime person to recruit to bring them together into Ganondorf's ideal Darkness.

His curses and monsters are also of an Onmyoji style, and I think there's a quote somewhere of Zant being part of the royal court. Onmyoji were usually the next person in line for the throne after any royal heirs, like the Chancellors in European kingdoms. Perhaps Midna was originally too young for the role that he would've naturally assumed.

And like most Onmyoji, Zant is soulbound to his deity, reviving as long as the other exists and vice versa and such.

And I wouldn't really pin Agahnim as an Onmyoji. His connections are pretty strenuous, but I suppose you could make the claim. I think the LTTP era wasn't very influenced by Japanese mythology as much, though.

[Raien]

Fantastic, MPS! This explains a big hole in NOA's translation.

This post has been edited by Raian: 25 May 2008 - 07:13 AM

[CID Farwin]

MikePetersSucks, on May 24 2008, 11:42 PM, said:

Yes, I am suggesting that. Not only does this imply that Zant has the power to travel between realms to some extent (which he demonstrates with his direct teleportation), but all of his powers tie into that of an Onmyoji's, including the weird reality-warping of his boss battle. And as Master of Ying and Yang, or Light and Shadow, he was probably the prime person to recruit to bring them together into Ganondorf's ideal Darkness.

Cool.

Quote

His curses and monsters are also of an Onmyoji style, and I think there's a quote somewhere of Zant being part of the royal court. Onmyoji were usually the next person in line for the throne after any royal heirs, like the Chancellors in European kingdoms. Perhaps Midna was originally too young for the role that he would've naturally assumed.

Makes sense why he wants the throne and thinks he's king.

Quote

And like most Onmyoji, Zant is soulbound to his deity, reviving as long as the other exists and vice versa and such.

@.@ guzhuwha??? Now that's something!! It explains Ganondorf's death a lot better!

Quote

And I wouldn't really pin Agahnim as an Onmyoji. His connections are pretty strenuous, but I suppose you could make the claim. I think the LTTP era wasn't very influenced by Japanese mythology as much, though.

fair enough.

[MikePetersSucks]

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@.@ guzhuwha??? Now that's something!! It explains Ganondorf's death a lot better!

Many Onmyoji were known to bind themselves to a Kami in a life-binding partnership. In such deals, said kami would give power to the Onmyoji, and the Onmyoji would have to fulfill the kami's will. These partnerships have usually been benign, but there are stories of partnerships with malevolent deities and spirits that involve the Onmyoji ending his own life to slay his evil deity and try to cleanse his soul in redemption. There are no tipped scales in Eastern Mythology, if you have a connection that goes one way, it goes the opposite as well. If we apply this to Ganondorf and Zant, then that means that if Zant revives as long as Ganondorf is alive, then Zant can kill Ganondorf simply by refusing to resurrect.

[Raien]

MikePetersSucks, on May 25 2008, 07:23 PM, said:

If we apply this to Ganondorf and Zant, then that means that if Zant revives as long as Ganondorf is alive, then Zant can kill Ganondorf simply by refusing to resurrect.

And that explains the significance of Zant's neck-snapping. Ugh, would it have killed NOA to explain Onmyoji for the Western players?

[Nick722]

MikePetersSucks, on May 25 2008, 11:23 AM, said:

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@.@ guzhuwha??? Now that's something!! It explains Ganondorf's death a lot better!

Many Onmyoji were known to bind themselves to a Kami in a life-binding partnership. In such deals, said kami would give power to the Onmyoji, and the Onmyoji would have to fulfill the kami's will. These partnerships have usually been benign, but there are stories of partnerships with malevolent deities and spirits that involve the Onmyoji ending his own life to slay his evil deity and try to cleanse his soul in redemption. There are no tipped scales in Eastern Mythology, if you have a connection that goes one way, it goes the opposite as well. If we apply this to Ganondorf and Zant, then that means that if Zant revives as long as Ganondorf is alive, then Zant can kill Ganondorf simply by refusing to resurrect.

Ho, that's awesome! Great work, guys.

[Jumbie]

MPS, that's a great theory!
I'd really appreciate it if you could post your knowledge whenever a question arises that no one else can solve.

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His curses and monsters are also of an Onmyoji style

I'm especially intrigued by that. Has it got to do with the glowing marks, or with the weird helmets they all wear?

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Fantastic, MPS! This explains a big hole in NOA's translation.

There is no such hole.

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And that explains the significance of Zant's neck-snapping. Ugh, would it have killed NOA to explain Onmyoji for the Western players?

Or Nintendo of Japan, for that matter? Remember, the word onmyoji never appears in TP. There's nothing NOA could have done, and no way how they could've found out about that concept (apart from asking a Japanese guy...).

From May 25 2008, 08:05 PM:

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And like most Onmyoji, Zant is soulbound to his deity, reviving as long as the other exists and vice versa and such.

@.@ guzhuwha??? Now that's something!! It explains Ganondorf's death a lot better!

But keep in mind that the removed dying speech shows that Ganondorf's death was impending anyway...

This post has been edited by Jumbie: 25 May 2008 - 05:30 PM

[Raien]

Jumbie, on May 25 2008, 11:13 PM, said:

There is no such hole.

I was referring to the fact that NOA didn't explain Zant's ability to pass between realms. I always thought it was related to Ganondorf's power, but now I know it was available to him all along.

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But keep in mind that the removed dying speech shows that Ganondorf's death was impending anyway...

That's a very good point. I guess Zant couldn't resurrect both Ganondorf and himself at the same time?

This post has been edited by Raian: 25 May 2008 - 05:19 PM

[Hero of Legend]

Raian said:

I was referring to the fact that NOA didn't explain Zant's ability to pass between realms. I always thought it was related to Ganondorf's power, but now I know it was available to him all along.

Are we certain of that? Twilight Princess might make use of Japanese mythology for its plot (which is pretty awesome, albeit confusing), but they are not the same, and we should not assume too much.

I would also find it quite strange if Zant was able to warp to the light world at will - that would render the exile quite ineffective. Though, on the other hand, Midna did say she needed Zant's power to return to her world (though that might actually be Ganondorf's power, since she just said he had found some new magic).

[Jumbie]

Everyone, let me clarify something. While MPS's theory is a great help to understand TP better, it has nothing to do with translation errors at all.
What he has done was interpreting certain aspects of the game and likening them to a piece of mythology. His conclusion is that Zant is an onmyouji, while the game itself (also the Japanese one) remains absolutely silent. It doesn't even call him a sorcerer or any profession, as far as I've seen.

All in all, MPS proposed a very helpful and convincing background by which certain things in TP can be explained. And now leave NoA alone, it's not their fault... this time

Raian, on May 26 2008, 12:18 AM, said:

I was referring to the fact that NOA didn't explain Zant's ability to pass between realms. I always thought it was related to Ganondorf's power, but now I know it was available to him all along.

Now you know? That's interesting, because I don't...
No honestly, that cannot be true. If Zant could have crossed the realms by his own power, he wouldn't have needed Ganondorf's. It certainly was thanks to him receiving Ganondorf's power.

The thing we did find out is that, applying what MPS says, Zant is the right person to pass between realms once he finds a kami to get power from (that being Ganon).

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But keep in mind that the removed dying speech shows that Ganondorf's death was impending anyway...

That's a very good point. I guess Zant couldn't resurrect both Ganondorf and himself at the same time?

It greatly bothers me to have two potential explanations for Ganondorf's death. (After we just recently shut one out...)
My personal solution would be that Ganondorf's dying speech implies he already expected Zant to be unwilling to resurrect along with his master...

This post has been edited by Jumbie: 25 May 2008 - 05:59 PM