[Jumbie]

jhurvid said:

All things in the world are sourced by magic, according to the Zelda mythology; water is no exception.

We don't always have to shout "magic!" with things that work perfectly without magic. I don't view the Zelda universe as a twisted form of ours, but rather as an extended form of ours. Meaning that genetics and all real world science perfectly apply in Zelda, with magic only coming in as an addition, not an alternate explanation for physical laws.

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The problem that I have with the Oracles games is that they throw around characters and bosses from old Zelda games, but they don't really connect them to other games in ways that can be seen as a direct progression. We have Twinrova randomly back from the dead, Jabu-Jabu randomly as a child, an Agahnim-like boss randomly appearing in a dungeon, other LoZ bosses randomly appearing around OoS, the Windmill man, etc. There's nothing there that says to me "This character/boss was included to lead into or follow a previous game"; it just says to me "This character/boss was included as a fun cameo with no storyline connection to other games".

Yes, and how is that different from any of the recent Zelda games? Charas are later chosen to fit the game, not the story, as TMC's director said.

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LA does not have this string of cameos from all over the place

Heh, if only LA was old enough, it would be the game that *invented* cameos!
Of course it couldn't draw from Zelda games alone, as there were only three, and LoZ and AoL didn't offer too many recognizable charas at that, so it's obvious that most had to come from ALttP. Which is no timeline evidence at all though.

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And any attempt to explain these cameos just comes across as fanfic to me because of the lack of actual connection.

This is definitely true - but not a problem. The devs intentionally leave it up to the fans to manufacture possible connections and explanations.
I'm painfully aware that some people here will never realize this. But luckily, the majority of Zelda fans probably won't think about that question in the first place, they simply let their crazy fandom run wild as they are supposed to.

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I cite my comparison of Zelda in TWW and TMC. Looking the same means nothing if the storyline makes it impossible for them to be related (in the manner you suggest).

You don't seem to have understood in which manner I suggested it. I meant Deth-I might be a memory of Vaati, taken from the soul of TMC's or FSA's Link which still resides in LA Link's body, just that the Wind Fish is the only one who can access those memories.

Or alternatively, Deth-I is really something like Bellum, as Hero of Legend suggested. Bellum's Japanese description, "Fantasy Demon", shouldn't be for no reason, and there are no problems equating the Wind Fish with the Ocean King, since the Japanese LA manual makes it seem like "Wind Fish" was just a nickname given by Koholint's population.

Actually the second theory sounds a lot better, so I'll give in to your final point:

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Well, the change in BGM music normally symbolises an important transformation in the boss. So what makes Deth-I's final form special compared to his previous forms? I argue it is his true form; the final battle.

Well then, it's about time to post new translations, I have a ton just waiting to be put up. But of course I can only do that if this debate comes to an end...

This post has been edited by Jumbie: 04 April 2008 - 03:58 PM

[Raien]

Jumbie, on Apr 4 2008, 09:55 PM, said:

We don't always have to shout "magic!" with things that work perfectly without magic. I don't view the Zelda universe as a twisted form of ours, but rather as an extended form of ours. Meaning that genetics and all real world science perfectly apply in Zelda, with magic only coming in as an addition, not an alternate explanation for physical laws.

The Zelda Universe is forged on a mythological basis, not a real-life scientific basis. Any mysteries in real-world mythology are explained with the creation of gods and magic. For example, Christian mythology does not explain how Adam and Eve created mankind through genetics, and Greek mythology does not explain how the rain evaporates with temperature change. All evidence in the Zelda universe supports this sort of understanding. No character in Zelda explores science without relating to magic.

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Yes, and how is that different from any of the recent Zelda games? Charas are later chosen to fit the game, not the story, as TMC's director said.

Right. These characters were not included to be involved in the timeline, so I don't see why we should try to force a connection.

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Heh, if only LA was old enough, it would be the game that *invented* cameos!
Of course it couldn't draw from Zelda games alone, as there were only three, and LoZ and AoL didn't offer too many recognizable charas at that, so it's obvious that most had to come from ALttP. Which is no timeline evidence at all though.

This is a poor argument. Deth-I's forms support what we know to be an intended ALTTP > LA placement, and Oracles does not diminish that evidence. Unlike with Capcom, who have proven themselves to enjoy throwing cameos around, there isn't enough in LA to argue that Deth-I's forms are cameos.

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This is definitely true - but not a problem. The devs intentionally leave it up to the fans to manufacture possible connections and explanations.
I'm painfully aware that some people here will never realize this. But luckily, the majority of Zelda fans probably won't think about that question in the first place, they simply let their crazy fandom run wild as they are supposed to.

I thought it was generally decided that for serious timeline theorising, there must be a realistic evidential basis to support a connection. That's the reason we don't place LA after MM, a la Gametrailers.

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You don't seem to have understood in which manner I suggested it. I meant Deth-I might be a memory of Vaati, taken from the soul of TMC's or FSA's Link which still resides in LA Link's body, just that the Wind Fish is the only one who can access those memories.

Link possesses subconscious memories of past Links that only the Wind Fish can sense for the purpose of Deth-I creating an impression of Vaati? Sounds like fanfic.

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Or alternatively, Deth-I is really something like Bellum, as Hero of Legend suggested. Bellum's Japanese description, "Fantasy Demon", shouldn't be for no reason, and there are no problems equating the Wind Fish with the Ocean King, since the Japanese LA manual makes it seem like "Wind Fish" was just a nickname given by Koholint's population.

I don't think there was ever a concrete explanation provided for the world of PH, which is very unlike LA, where it is stated to be a dream world. Whatever origin Bellum has, it isn't connected to nightmares like Deth-I is. Sounds like a grasping-for-straws explanation.

And although both the Wind Fish and Ocean King are whale deities, it is clear that they are not the same because one roams the sky whereas the other roams the seas.

This post has been edited by jhurvid: 04 April 2008 - 05:12 PM

[Impossible]

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So, we know for a fact that at least back in 1997, that's what the programmers thought. It's possible that this may have been retconned now, but back then there's no question that LA happened after ALttP (six years later according to AST).

Argh, I realised just as I was reading this that six years is how long after ALttP KnS was released! And you evidently noticed it just as I did. I think they probably had that line to make it feel like time was passing the same in the real world as in Hyrule, or something. (LOL, if only that were true.)

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The Oracle games borrowing and modifying sprites and in-game art from Link's Awakening?

NEVAAAR~

It should be kind of obvious that they just reused the boat because it was easier than making a new one. Anyway, even though this is supposedly the evidence that proves OoX -> LA, it really doesn't prove anything. You can interpret it as an implication, as something that was possibly being suggested, but nothing will make any other placement wrong because there's no real evidence. I interpret various things in LA and its manual as meaning that it's still after ALttP, and I prefer to trust a game to determine its own placement, than a different game to decide where that game goes. (The only time I really do that is with FSA, because FS gives us nothing to place it.) Particularly if it would involve actually changing a game's placement without any real reason. There are more flaws in OoX->LA, too.

So no, it's not "provable", but LA being a sequel to ALttP has somewhat more meaning to it, since that was at some point a fact. Something KnS reinforces more explicitly than the Oracles really do anything to change.

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Yes, and how is that different from any of the recent Zelda games? Charas are later chosen to fit the game, not the story, as TMC's director said.

The Oracles are a bit different, because the story was written before the gameplay was really decided. Also, the LoZ elements predate the current story. And I would still say the Oracles share more story elements with AoL than any other game. I'm not talking about things that were added in as references to OoT and MM, which exist in great number as well.

The Oracles don't weaken the evidence connecting LA to ALttP, they simply can't. No matter how you want to reinterpret LA's manual, it was written at the time to talk about ALttP. Arguably, you could say that all the things NoA added are inferred from that understanding.

Who cares if people are debating? You can post the translations. Also, I've never heard Dethl called DethI before... That's interesting.

This post has been edited by Impossible: 04 April 2008 - 06:54 PM

[Raien]

Impossible, on Apr 5 2008, 12:51 AM, said:

The Oracles are a bit different, because the story was written before the gameplay was really decided. Also, the LoZ elements predate the current story. And I would still say the Oracles share more story elements with AoL than any other game. I'm not talking about things that were added in as references to OoT and MM, which exist in great number as well.

I think the parallel between Oracles and TMC is that both games have literally ripped character models from previous games without applying a connecting narrative between those games. This is ultimately what makes character appearances in Capcom games unreliable in my eyes, and the FSA developers have admitted using these sorts of identifiable elements in that game too.

[Impossible]

My point is still that the basic story probably dates back to when they were still doing the remakes, because they had that before they had the world even worked out. And there are a few common elements, like Ganon's minions trying to revive him, and the Triforce mark.

[Jumbie]

Yadda yadda, enough of this now. Here's the stuff you requested:

White Maiden said:

リンク…ありがとう。あなたは私の…いえ、私だけではありません。ハイラルの希望、ともしびですわ。
Link… Thank you. You are my…nay, not only mine – the hope of Hyrule; its light you are.
Link… Thank you. You carry my hopes with you…as well as all of Hyrule's.

…あ、あなたが持っているのは　青の宝玉ですか？！　どうして　それを…。
…Oh, is that the blue jewel you carry?! What about it...?
Wait... is that the blue royal jewel you carry? How did you come by it?

…そうですか。　あのハイラル騎士団が…では　宝玉もいまは…。
…Is that so? The group of Hyrule Knights… So even the jewels are now…
Is that so? The Knights of Hyrule… So even the jewels are now…

…リンク、私たちにできるのは　ひとつひとつを乗りこえながら　光を信じ　歩んでいくことだけです。
…Link, all we can do is put our faith in the light and press on, overcoming one by one.
Link, all we can do is put our faith in the light and press on, overcoming each obstacle that confronts us.

私の森も、今は光を失い暗黒に包まれてしまっているのでしょうか。
I fear my forest, too, is now shrouded in darkness that makes it lose its light.
My forest has lost its light. Darkness covers it like a shroud.

リンク、森へ行って下さいませんか？　あの森なら　何か手がかりが　見つかるかも　知れません。
Link, could you please go to the forest? We can't tell what clues we might find in that forest.
Link, will you go to the forest? Perhaps you will find some clues there.

それに森の奥深くにある神殿。そこには闇の鏡が　まつられています。
Moreover, there's a temple in the depths of the forest. The Mirror of Darkness is enshrined there.
In the heart of the forest is a temple. The Dark Mirror can be found there.

はるか昔　闇の一族が　ハイラルに　せめこんだ時、その者らを　鏡の中に閉じこめました。
Long ago, when a clan of darkness invaded Hyrule, those people were imprisoned within the mirror.
Long ago, a dark tribe invaded Hyrule. They were defeated and imprisoned within the mirror.

そして、闇の一族とあの鏡が　この世界と関わりを持たぬよう　その神殿へ　かくしたのです。
And, in order for the clan of darkness and that mirror not to have a connection to this world, it was hidden away in that temple.
The tribe's mirror prison was then secreted away and hidden in the forest temple to sever its connection to this world.

心悪しき者の手へと、闇の鏡が　わたるような事は、決して　あってはなりません。
The Mirror of Darkness must never fall into the hands of evil-hearted ones.
That Dark Mirror must never fall into the hands of those with evil hearts.

リンク！今は勇者である　あなたの手元に　あるのが　一番安心です。
Link! Now with you being a hero, it's a great relief that it is within your reach.
Link! The mirror is a danger in anyone's hands but yours. No one else can be trusted.

神殿で　闇の鏡を手に入れて下さい。そして、ゼルダ姫を助け出すまで　あなたが　あずかっていて下さい。
Please retrieve the Mirror of Darkness from the temple, and keep it until you have come to Princess Zelda's aid.
Retrieve the Dark Mirror from the palace, and keep it until Princess Zelda is safe.

お願いします。今たよれるのは　あなただけなのです…。
I ask this of you. You are now the only one we can depend on…
Please. You are the only one we can depend on…

…まずは森へ　おもむきましょう。
…First of all, it's off to the forest.
First, let us proceed to the forest.

あの森は、大きな光の力を持っています。
That forest has the power of a great light.
That forest is empowered with the strength of light.

その森が　たやすく　暗黒に　しずんでしまうなどとは、私には　考えられないのです…。
It's unimaginable to me that it would succumb to the darkness so easily…
I cannot imagine that it would be overwhelmed so easily by the darkness…

もし暗黒におおわれている　ならば　何か理由があるはずです。とても強大な　何かが…。
If it is covered in darkness, there must be a reason. Something really mighty…
If the darkness smothers the light, there must be a reason. Some mighty force…

White Maiden said:

リンク。ここが　光の森…。
Link. This is the Forest of Light…
Link, this is the Forest of Light.

かつての、と言うべきでしょうか…。やはり　ここも暗黒が深く、空気が　よどんでいます…。
Or rather, it once was, I guess. After all, the darkness grows deep here, and the air is stagnant…
Or rather, it once was. Now, the darkness grows deep, and the air stagnant.

ここで　何かが　見えてくるでしょう。手がかりとなる何か…。
Here we should see something. Some clue…
I wonder if some clue might reveal itself here.

おかしな魔物たちが　この森に　集まっているようです。
It seems that some odd monsters are gathering in this forest.
It seems that many foul beasts are gathering here.

彼らから　何か　さぐれるかも　知れませんよ。
Perhaps you might be able to learn something from them.
Perhaps you might be able to learn something from them.

White Maiden said:

ああっ…！闇の鏡が…　何者かにうばわれているわ！
Aah…! The Mirror of Darkness… Someone has stolen it!
Ah! The Dark Mirror... Someone's stolen the Dark Mirror!

あれは、持つ者の悪しき心をうつし出し　魔物を生み出します。
That thing arouses the wickedness within the person who has it and spawns an evil being.
That mirror reveals the wickedness within a person and brings it to life.

暗黒の…黒い力をもった魔物…
An evil being possessing the black power of darkness…
It's an item of terrible, dark power. No good can come from this.

…シャドウリンク！！
…Shadow Link!!
Shadow Link!!

あれは闇の鏡から　生まれ出たのでは？！
So, is the Mirror of Darkness what created him?!
Could he be your evil reflection, cast by the Dark Mirror?

それが　鏡をうばった者のくわだてならば…。…なんということでしょう。
If that was the plan of the mirror's thief… then I guess that's what it means.
If that were the motive of the mirror's thief… This is disastrous!

はやく　取り戻さなければ　世界中が　シャドウリンクで　あふれかえってしまいます。
If we don't recover it quickly, the whole world will be overrun with more and more Shadow Links.
If we don't get the mirror back, Hyrule will be overrun with evil Shadow Links.

あの鏡は　だれが…　どこに…？！
That mirror… who… and where…?!
The mirror... Who took it? And where?

So, that was disappointing. No major differences at all.

This post has been edited by Jumbie: 04 April 2008 - 07:48 PM

[Raien]

Just out of interest, does the White Maiden suggest any particular relationship between the Dark Tribe and Dark Mirror?

This post has been edited by jhurvid: 04 April 2008 - 08:30 PM

[Impossible]

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Long ago, when a clan of darkness invaded Hyrule, those people were imprisoned within the mirror.

...So now we're back where we started! Looks like the US version was more consistent with the tribe being inside the mirror. I always figured this scene would be more useful than Dampe.

I actually find the last scene, talking about the mirror and Shadow Link, to be more useful in the Japanese version, too. It confirms that the Dark Mirror actually creates the Shadow Links out of nothing (which would certainly differentiate it from any other mirror in the series, since Nintendo use mirrors way too much). It's more explicit, and less open to interpretation. The same goes for many of your translations, really, like how we can be clear about details in TP. Sure, it was said in the US version too, but it was really just implied, and never certain.

Thanks a lot for this one, Jumbie. I guess now we need to move on to stuff involving Ganon and Vaati, if there's anything else in FSA that should be translated.

This post has been edited by Impossible: 04 April 2008 - 08:52 PM

[Raien]

Have the Gerudos' quotes in FSA been translated? They talk about their relationship with the Pyramid, so it could shed light on the general subject.

[Jumbie]

jhurvid, on Apr 5 2008, 03:18 AM, said:

Just out of interest, does the White Maiden suggest any particular relationship between the Dark Tribe and Dark Mirror?

Um, I don't know what to answer. It just says what I posted?

Impossible, on Apr 5 2008, 03:49 AM, said:

...So now we're back where we started! Looks like the US version was more consistent with the tribe being inside the mirror. I always figured this scene would be more useful than Dampe.

I don't think it's a big deal, they don't literally have to be inside the mirror, even though that's the way the legend is remembered.

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It confirms that the Dark Mirror actually creates the Shadow Links out of nothing

Not without using the wickedness in its holder.

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(which would certainly differentiate it from any other mirror in the series, since Nintendo use mirrors way too much).

In Zelda they used no more than 3 mirrors, and only 2 of them are similar. But they are similar enough to easily be the same, regardless of the tiny differences revealed here.

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I guess now we need to move on to stuff involving Ganon and Vaati, if there's anything else in FSA that should be translated.

Oh there's a lot left! I, at least, want to get it complete (with FSA that sure can be done, not so sure about TP...).

jhurvid, on Apr 5 2008, 01:48 PM, said:

Have the Gerudos' quotes in FSA been translated? They talk about their relationship with the Pyramid, so it could shed light on the general subject.

I figured that would be next on the list, after the game's ending. I'll also include the Zuna quotes in there.

[Impossible]

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I don't think it's a big deal, they don't literally have to be inside the mirror, even though that's the way the legend is remembered.

If you're going to say this, any legend or backstory in the series can immediately be discounted. If the game says the tribe was imprisoned in the mirror, it was. The sages have the highest credibility. Besides, the fact that it creates beings out of thin air just by having a person to base them on suggests that the magic of the tribe is inside the mirror itself.

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Not without using the wickedness in its holder.

Yes, but it produces the Shadow Links themselves from nothing. There isn't anything they're made of, it's just poof and there are more Shadow Links. The Mirror of Twilight has no such power.

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In Zelda they used no more than 3 mirrors, and only 2 of them are similar. But they are similar enough to easily be the same, regardless of the tiny differences revealed here.

Three is too many. And no, they aren't similar enough... The history of the Dark Mirror is irreconcilable with the history of the Mirror of Twilight. Only the Magic Mirror could be the same as the Dark Mirror, which, while unlikely, is at least feasible, because FSA was made AFTER ALttP. And because there's a deliberate decision NOT to destroy the mirror, as opposed to TP having that scene to ensure that no other game relates to the Twilight or the mirror.

Besides, the majority of evidence points to FSA being after TP...

[Duke Serkol]

Jumbie, on Apr 6 2008, 06:15 AM, said:

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It confirms that the Dark Mirror actually creates the Shadow Links out of nothing

Not without using the wickedness in its holder.

Holder or bystander, I'd say. I mean, I don't think Link was actually briefly handed over the mirror prior to the game (though it is possible). It seems more liekly to me that Ganon hung it some place where he knew it would catch Link's reflection.

Impossible, on Apr 6 2008, 06:50 AM, said:

there's a deliberate decision NOT to destroy the mirror, as opposed to TP having that scene to ensure that no other game relates to the Twilight or the mirror.

Besides, the majority of evidence points to FSA being after TP...

Quoted for truth
It is after all the whole point to destroyng the mirror, separating the two worlds permanently and explain why any relation with the Twilight Realm was absent from the rest of Hyrule's history (i.e. the other games).
Personally (as I discussed with Jumbie in the past), I think the Twilight Mirror was originally going to be the Dark Mirriro, and the Twili the Dark Tribe, but as the game was developed, Nintendo I believe changed this in order to have more liberty.

[LionHarted]

Isn't Link said to get sucked into the mirror when he crosses worlds in the Japanese text of ALttP? If that's the case, why is the wording of "within the Mirror" in any way evidence that the mirror doesn't send people to another world?

Impossible said:

as opposed to TP having that scene to ensure that no other game relates to the Twilight or the mirror.

Not in the CHILD timeline.

[Impossible]

You're missing the point as always. I'm not saying it physically prevents any game from having that mirror, although that's also true. (FSA can't be after TWW, because Ganon isn't known by the descendants of the sages, even though he's known very well by ALttP's sages because of the IW. Ganon's role in history is common knowledge on the Adult Timeline, and his conquest of the Sacred Realm becomes common knowledge between FSA and ALttP. What does this suggest happened between FSA and ALttP?) I'm saying that it's an individual plot item, and they severed its connection to any other game in the series by destroying it, ensuring it wouldn't be used again or in other games. Do you honestly think they even had the possibilities on various timelines in mind when they were doing that? The point is that the mirror has nothing to do with any other games.

Besides, to make a solid case for the mirrors being the same, they would have to be similar or identical in appearance, function, and history. It meets none of these criteria. They're just both mirrors relating to dark tribes.

[LionHarted]

Impossible, on Apr 6 2008, 08:02 AM, said:

FSA can't be after TWW, because Ganon isn't known by the descendants of the sages

The fact that Zelda knows he is an ancient demon reborn sort of contradicts this.

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even though he's known very well by ALttP's sages because of the IW.

Or because of FSA, and the fact that he's not dead anymore.

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Ganon's role in history is common knowledge on the Adult Timeline, and his conquest of the Sacred Realm becomes common knowledge between FSA and ALttP.

I'm pretty sure the Sacred Realm has nothing to do with the immediate plots of TWW, TMC, FS, or FSA, so if none of these games reference it, that doesn't mean anything whatsoever.

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I'm saying that it's an individual plot item, and they severed its connection to any other game in the series by destroying it, ensuring it wouldn't be used again or in other games.

It was already used in another game...

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Besides, to make a solid case for the mirrors being the same, they would have to be similar or identical in appearance, function, and history. It meets none of these criteria. They're just both mirrors relating to dark tribes.

A 2D sprite will NOT be identical to a 3D model. EVER.
The Dark Mirror was used to seal away a dark tribe and spawned monsters. So was/did the Mirror of Twilight.

I'm waiting to see the differences.

This post has been edited by LionHarted: 06 April 2008 - 10:20 AM

[Jumbie]

Duke Serkol, on Apr 6 2008, 01:23 PM, said:

Jumbie, on Apr 6 2008, 06:15 AM, said:

Not without using the wickedness in its holder.

Holder or bystander, I'd say. I mean, I don't think Link was actually briefly handed over the mirror prior to the game (though it is possible). It seems more liekly to me that Ganon hung it some place where he knew it would catch Link's reflection.

That theory is excellent! In any case, the Japanese text says "wickedness in the person who has/holds it", and the Shrine Maiden expresses relief because the mirror will be safe in Link's hands...

LionHarted, on Apr 6 2008, 02:42 PM, said:

Isn't Link said to get sucked into the mirror when he crosses worlds in the Japanese text of ALttP? If that's the case, why is the wording of "within the Mirror" in any way evidence that the mirror doesn't send people to another world?

Oh yes, what a very nice quote!^^

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I received the Magical Mirror! It's a beautiful clear blue mirror... I feel like I'll be sucked in.

Impossible, on Apr 6 2008, 04:02 PM, said:

Besides, to make a solid case for the mirrors being the same, they would have to be similar or identical in appearance, function, and history.

They are similar in appearance, function, and history - that's what our theories are based on. They're just not similar enough for you.

LionHarted, on Apr 6 2008, 05:19 PM, said:

The fact that Zelda knows he is an ancient demon reborn sort of contradicts this.

I have an unpleasant surprise coming up about this.


By the way, I've just now discovered some mysterious quotes in the English and Japanese textdumps of FSA that I doubt are ever encountered while playing the game:

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この先、賢者の森
Forest of Sages ahead.
Forest of Sages ahead.

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賢者の家
House of Sages
Hall of Sages

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どこかで、あったかのぉ？　ワシの他にも、６人の賢者が身を潜めている　きっとお前達の、力になるだろう
Where was it, though? Six sages other than me are hiding. Surely they can aid you, I think.
Where was it, though? There are six other sages hiding in this realm. Surely they can aid you...

If these quotes were left from an earlier stage of development, that must mean they originally wanted FSA to retell the Seal War, but later decided to abandon that storyline and change the Sages into Shrine Maidens...
There can be no other reason why they ended up completely avoiding the use of "Sage" in the final game. You'd think they use every possible method of recognition to show us that FSA is intended as being ALttP's prequel, rather than actually *removing* those points of recognition shortly before the game's completion, right?

This post has been edited by Jumbie: 06 April 2008 - 03:22 PM

[Raien]

Given FSA was said to have included ALTTP references in order to appeal to the nostalgia of veteran fans, I think it's almost impossible to accurately second-guess what was intended for specific ALTTP references. Maybe there was an original intention to retell the Seal War, but I think other reasons are available, even if not immediately easy to understand.

[Hero of Legend]

Didn't I tell you FSA's final battle was suspiciously like the story of the IW - the "knights" protecting the "sages" while they worked their seal?

Impossible said:

Do you honestly think they even had the possibilities on various timelines in mind when they were doing that?

You seem to know a great deal of what is going on in the minds of Nintendo's employees when they make a new Zelda. Tell me, what is it that makes the destruction of a mirror so obviously different from, say, the destruction of Hyrule? Because, surely, Nintendo would never do THAT if they intended to use that setting again in an alternate timeline?

Oh, wait...

[Duke Serkol]

Jumbie, on Apr 6 2008, 10:21 PM, said:

Duke Serkol, on Apr 6 2008, 01:23 PM, said:

Jumbie, on Apr 6 2008, 06:15 AM, said:

Not without using the wickedness in its holder.

Holder or bystander, I'd say. I mean, I don't think Link was actually briefly handed over the mirror prior to the game (though it is possible). It seems more liekly to me that Ganon hung it some place where he knew it would catch Link's reflection.

That theory is excellent! In any case, the Japanese text says "wickedness in the person who has/holds it", and the Shrine Maiden expresses relief because the mirror will be safe in Link's hands...

Ah yes, that is indeed quite controversial. I always assumed the maiden was relieved because Link (knowing now what the mirror does) would keep it shrouded or prevent it to reflect any more people, but it could also be read in the way you suggest, that it gives body to evil in the shape it last reflected but out of the evil of its owner.
...would that make Shadow Link in FSA half Phantom Ganon?

[Impossible]

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Isn't Link said to get sucked into the mirror when he crosses worlds in the Japanese text of ALttP? If that's the case, why is the wording of "within the Mirror" in any way evidence that the mirror doesn't send people to another world?

Why do you insist on continuing with points that you already know are irrelevant from past arguments? ALttP is speaking metaphorically. It FEELS LIKE you're being sucked in. FSA is not speaking metaphorically, it's saying that they were literally imprisoned INSIDE the mirror.

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A 2D sprite will NOT be identical to a 3D model. EVER.

A handheld mirror is different to a mirror an entire person can fit in.

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The Dark Mirror was used to seal away a dark tribe and spawned monsters. So was/did the Mirror of Twilight.

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They are similar in appearance, function, and history - that's what our theories are based on. They're just not similar enough for you.

You can make ANYTHING sound similar through the magical practice of omission. Leaving out details isn't a good way to prove something. Being mirrors doesn't make them similar in appearance. Their functions are completely different - one is a portal to another world, the other creates evil beings in infinite number, and there's no explanation of how this could change. Why doesn't the Dark Mirror take Link into the Twilight Realm? Why doesn't the Twilight Mirror ever start producing evil copies out of thin air? Because they're different mirrors that are specific to the GAME (not timeline) plots of two different games.

Their histories are irreconcilable - after the dark tribe was sealed INSIDE the Dark Mirror, it was hidden in the Forest of Light until FSA. The Mirror of Twilight, however, was in Arbiter's Grounds at the time of OoT at least, meaning it was there before the timeline split. However, the Dark Mirror should definitely be in the Forest of Light at that time, if that's true. The Twili must have already been sealed BY the Mirror of Twilight at that time.

Unless they at least manage to be THE SAME in one area, and not completely contradictory in any other area, it's just not possible.

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You seem to know a great deal of what is going on in the minds of Nintendo's employees when they make a new Zelda. Tell me, what is it that makes the destruction of a mirror so obviously different from, say, the destruction of Hyrule? Because, surely, Nintendo would never do THAT if they intended to use that setting again in an alternate timeline?

One is a game plot point, one is a series plot point. The Mirror of Twilight has nothing to do with any other games.

[Mgoblue201]

I know that there is a new argument, and so I do this with no alacrity, but I really have to address this post.

Jumbie, on Apr 3 2008, 11:06 PM, said:

All that line shows is that LA was originally intended as ALttP's sequel, which was reconsidered in 2001 though.

But what was the intent? The plots of LTTP and the Oracles aren't in any way irreconcilable that I know of (and even if they are, it's not by much). They whiffed badly on some key pieces of dialogue, which wouldn't be difficult to change. If the Oracles were intended to lead into LA, then why do so much damage? To change the timeline so severely because of minor story elements would in my mind be incredibly inauspicious. They could have shoved it between LTTP and LA with no difficulties. There is absolutely no reason to sever the two games apart. This isn't changing the OOT Imprisoning War thing since OOT never aligned with LTTP to begin with. This is changing a long held belief that never needed to be tampered with in a ridiculous way.

And so we are left with three possibilities. 1) A retconning where one is not needed. 2) An intent to put it between two games and missing badly because they don't know their facts. 3) Nothing was meant by the ending. The last one is perhaps the only one that would not be a result of idiocy, though it would be a result of naivety, and one must at least take notice of the similarities. The first would probably be the biggest leap, one I just don't see Nintendo ever making.

Jumbie, on Apr 3 2008, 11:06 PM, said:

No, the only difference in the sails is that in Oracles they are rolled out, because Link wants to gain speed, and in LA they are rolled in, because Link is in a thunderstorm... >_>
Apart from that, the ship sprites are completely identical; the colour difference being due to opposite lighting in the two games:
Oracles_LA.PNG

Unless my sea legs are lacking, those are two completely different kinds of sails. One kind of sail is rolled up. For instance:



They have a crossbar on top. The sail furrows downward and are held in place by various ropes and what not. There are other kinds of sails that are held in place by vertical and horizontal bars. There are even sails that require three: two horizontal and one vertical. There are also sails that aren't held in place by bars but instead just ropes.

The one on the right looks more like an old Viking ship with one square sail.



The one on the left looks like some sort of sail boat.

[LionHarted]

Impossible, on Apr 6 2008, 08:43 PM, said:

Why do you insist on continuing with points that you already know are irrelevant from past arguments? ALttP is speaking metaphorically. It FEELS LIKE you're being sucked in. FSA is not speaking metaphorically, it's saying that they were literally imprisoned INSIDE the mirror.

Sure, sure, the pot can call the kettle black and subjectively and incongruently interpret concepts. That's nice.

Of course, why bother cutting off the mirror "from this world" if it's an object in this world? There are much better ways to say that--like "to prevent their escape." But, no, they choose to involve the concept of worlds. Why do you suppose that is?

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A handheld mirror is different to a mirror an entire person can fit in.

Who said the Dark Mirror was handheld?

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You can make ANYTHING sound similar through the magical practice of omission. Leaving out details isn't a good way to prove something. Being mirrors doesn't make them similar in appearance. Their functions are completely different - one is a portal to another world, the other creates evil beings in infinite number, and there's no explanation of how this could change. Why doesn't the Dark Mirror take Link into the Twilight Realm? Why doesn't the Twilight Mirror ever start producing evil copies out of thin air? Because they're different mirrors that are specific to the GAME (not timeline) plots of two different games.

Their histories are irreconcilable - after the dark tribe was sealed INSIDE the Dark Mirror, it was hidden in the Forest of Light until FSA. The Mirror of Twilight, however, was in Arbiter's Grounds at the time of OoT at least, meaning it was there before the timeline split. However, the Dark Mirror should definitely be in the Forest of Light at that time, if that's true. The Twili must have already been sealed BY the Mirror of Twilight at that time.

1) The Master Sword in ALttP goes from having a silver and red hilt in the official art to having the traditional blue hilt in the in-game sprite to having a brown hilt once Link has it. As such, it's quite impossible to tell precisely what anything looks like based on its in-game sprite.

2) The Mirror of Twilight is used as a portal to another world, because in order to eliminate the threat against Hyrule, the despot of that other world must be eliminated. The Mirror of Twilight is also said to be dangerous, and is shown to literally be able to reflect the evil in someone's heart. In FSA, however, no one's trying to use the Dark Mirror to get at the sealed tribe. Ganon's simply using it to spawn evil beings. How in the world he can get it to reflect Link without ever having met him is beyond me.

As for the Forest of Light bit, it's really unnecessary to try to pin down when exactly it was placed there. It was placed there for a purpose, however. In the Child Timeline, the Ancient Sages still exist, but in the Adult Timeline, they do not appear to (otherwise, why awaken new sages?). Since the Ancient Sages are responsible for guarding the Mirror, what then would happen to it?

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One is a game plot point, one is a series plot point. The Mirror of Twilight has nothing to do with any other games.

Actually, both of them are just as much of both. In order for the Great Flood to truly be a series plot point, it would have to be related to games outside of its particular arc. Otherwise it could just be a dead-end side story with no real significance to the rest of the series, in which case its only significance is unto itself. In order for the Mirror of Twilight to possibly be a series plot point, it needs to play a role in multiple story arcs, like the Master Sword. We're arguing that it does.

It's undeniable that the Mirror of Twilight is based off the Mirror of Darkness. And, since there are no flat-out contradictions between the two, we might as well say they are the same.

Or are there two Master Swords, since one was made by the people and one by the sages?

[Impossible]

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Of course, why bother cutting off the mirror "from this world" if it's an object in this world? There are much better ways to say that--like "to prevent their escape." But, no, they choose to involve the concept of worlds. Why do you suppose that is?

I'm not even going to respond to a point that obviously pathetic. Stop taking everything so literally.

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Who said the Dark Mirror was handheld?

I'm pretty sure Zelda holds it when she takes it.

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1) The Master Sword in ALttP goes from having a silver and red hilt in the official art to having the traditional blue hilt in the in-game sprite to having a brown hilt once Link has it. As such, it's quite impossible to tell precisely what anything looks like based on its in-game sprite.

The Master Sword has absolutely nothing to do with it. This is a difference in size.

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Since the Ancient Sages are responsible for guarding the Mirror, what then would happen to it?

Nothing, and it would be lost in the destruction of Hyrule.

The most obvious implication, for those of us NOT searching for ways to prove an unlikely theory, is that the hiding of the mirror was done immediately after the imprisoning in order to prevent any evil from escaping. Why the hell would you wait? Obviously the mirror's evil power was too great to keep in human hands, and it's sheer speculation of something the game doesn't imply to say they wouldn't have severed the mirror from human contact in the first place. It probably would have cast evil clones of the sages, had they been its guardians, so even that wasn't safe. But the Mirror of Twilight had no such power and was COMPLETELY different in purpose.

HYRULE is a series plot point, not the flood. HYRULE. What is hard to understand about that?

It's not necessary for the mirrors to be the same, as you might say, so it's not worth trying to prove anything with it. And their functions and histories completely contradict each other, which makes me wonder why you insist on dragging this on.

This post has been edited by Impossible: 07 April 2008 - 07:50 AM

[LionHarted]

Impossible, on Apr 7 2008, 06:42 AM, said:

FSA is not speaking metaphorically, it's saying that they were literally imprisoned INSIDE the mirror.
[...]
I'm not even going to respond to a point that obviously pathetic. Stop taking everything so literally.

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I'm pretty sure Zelda holds it when she takes it.

Link puts a ball-and-chain in his pocket. What's your point?

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Nothing, and it would be lost in the destruction of Hyrule.

Nothing is necessarily lost in the destruction of Hyrule except Hyrule itself.

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The implication I get from "then" is that this was done immediately after the imprisoning in order to prevent any evil from escaping. Why the hell would you wait? Obviously the mirror's evil power was too great to keep in human hands, and it's sheer speculation of something the game doesn't imply to say they wouldn't have severed the mirror from human contact in the first place. It probably would have cast evil clones of the sages, had they been its guardians, so even that wasn't safe. But the Mirror of Twilight had no such power and was COMPLETELY different in purpose.

1) They obviously weren't keen on sealing the Mirror of Twilight completely away in TP, even though it's just as dangerous.
2) The Mirror was kept by Zelda, as you yourself has stated, rendering your second point useless.
3) The Mirror of Twilight didn't turn the sages evil in TP.
4) The Mirror of Twilight very clearly spawns monsters. It's said to:

Yeta said:

But...since I get mirror, I get sick, and then bad monsters appear...

5) Why are you using the NoA translation when we have the literal Japanese translation?

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HYRULE is a series plot point, not the flood. HYRULE. What is hard to understand about that?

Doesn't matter, since, as you yourself have admitted, place names are not static in the Zelda series.

This post has been edited by LionHarted: 07 April 2008 - 07:53 AM

[Impossible]

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Nothing is necessarily lost in the destruction of Hyrule except Hyrule itself.

Right, let's just flout common sense.

It was my mistake using the NoA translation, I mixed it up with the Japanese one. I edited it, my point still stands.

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1) They obviously weren't keen on sealing the Mirror of Twilight completely away in TP, even though it's just as dangerous.

It wasn't any danger sitting in the mirror chamber. That much is obvious. No evil clones of Link or the sages or anyone else jumped out. If the Mirror of Twilight were that dangerous, and not just a one-way portal, it wouldn't be there. Monsters didn't just jump out of it, or there's no goddamn way it would be there. Yeta only even had a piece of the mirror, not the actual thing, and the monsters were not evil Shadow Yetas. They were unrelated monsters, not Twilight beings.

The link between the mirrors is strenuous at best, no matter how you want to put it, because no evil clones came out of the Mirror of Twilight, and the two mirrors were in completely different locations before OoT. You're reinterpreting FSA's dialogue to mean something it doesn't.

This post has been edited by Impossible: 07 April 2008 - 08:03 AM

[LionHarted]

Impossible, on Apr 7 2008, 08:01 AM, said:

It wasn't any danger sitting in the mirror chamber. That much is obvious.

Despite the fact that it was, and was actually the means by which the threats seen throughout the entire game were even able to become threats.

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If the Mirror of Twilight were that dangerous, and not just a one-way portal, it wouldn't be there.

It looked quite two-way to me.

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The link between the mirrors is strenuous at best, no matter how you want to put it, because no evil clones came out of the Mirror of Twilight, and the two mirrors were in completely different locations before OoT. You're reinterpreting FSA's dialogue to mean something it doesn't.

And the Master Sword doesn't shoot sword beams and can't kill Ganondorf in OoT.

What's your point?

[Impossible]

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Despite the fact that it was, and was actually the means by which the threats seen throughout the entire game were even able to become threats.

And you know damn well that's not true, because the fact is that no Shadow Links come out of the Mirror of Twilight, even though Link is right in front of it.

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It looked quite two-way to me.

Not to the Twili.

Please learn the difference between things that we know are true, and theories that actually contradict evidence.

[LionHarted]

Impossible, on Apr 7 2008, 08:25 AM, said:

And you know damn well that's not true, because the fact is that no Shadow Links come out of the Mirror of Twilight, even though Link is right in front of it.

When was Link anywhere near the Mirror of Darkness?

[Hero of Legend]

Duke Serkol, on Apr 7 2008, 01:03 AM, said:

Jumbie, on Apr 6 2008, 10:21 PM, said:

Duke Serkol, on Apr 6 2008, 01:23 PM, said:

Jumbie, on Apr 6 2008, 06:15 AM, said:

Not without using the wickedness in its holder.

Holder or bystander, I'd say. I mean, I don't think Link was actually briefly handed over the mirror prior to the game (though it is possible). It seems more liekly to me that Ganon hung it some place where he knew it would catch Link's reflection.

That theory is excellent! In any case, the Japanese text says "wickedness in the person who has/holds it", and the Shrine Maiden expresses relief because the mirror will be safe in Link's hands...

Ah yes, that is indeed quite controversial. I always assumed the maiden was relieved because Link (knowing now what the mirror does) would keep it shrouded or prevent it to reflect any more people, but it could also be read in the way you suggest, that it gives body to evil in the shape it last reflected but out of the evil of its owner.
...would that make Shadow Link in FSA half Phantom Ganon?

Actually, we are never told the mirror needed to reflect anything, be it Link or anyone else, in order to spawn Shadow Link. The maiden says "it arouses the wickedness within the person who has it and spawns an evil being" so, presumably, Shadow Link was created simply because Ganon wanted it. That's how I understand it, anyway.

Mgoblue201 said:

The first would probably be the biggest leap, one I just don't see Nintendo ever making.

Which is why Nintendo would never turn a game like OoT into the Seal War, only to sever the connection to ALttP twice over with TWW and TP following the introduction of the concept of a split timeline?

This post has been edited by Hero of Legend: 07 April 2008 - 09:47 AM

[Raien]

I agree with Impossible that the specific differences outweigh the general similarities, but I only have one point to address.

LionHarted said:

Of course, why bother cutting off the mirror "from this world" if it's an object in this world? There are much better ways to say that--like "to prevent their escape." But, no, they choose to involve the concept of worlds. Why do you suppose that is?

As I pointed out in the two-month debate when you argued Ganon was sealed in the Dark World in FSA's ending, references to "from the world" or "away from the world" refer to a lack of communication between an enclosed space and an outside space. Someone who is locked in prison would be said to be separated from the world; meaning he/she cannot interact with people outside.

Jumbie's latest translation proves this interpretation; namely this line in particular:

FSA said:

And, in order for the clan of darkness and that mirror not to have a connection to this world, it was hidden away in that temple.

How could the Dark Mirror not have a connection with the world if it was hidden in a temple within the world? Because it refers to communication; the power of Light in the Forest prevents the dark power of the Mirror from making contact with the outside world. There are other ways of creating this meaning, but why would it be necessary to do so? The only player who has ever claimed that this statement should be taken absolutely literally is you.