[MikePetersSucks]

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What about Ganondorf? He's certainly not a weak little Poe or Moblin.

He had divine, or powerful demonic, relics in each instance, just like Vaati has the Minish Cap and the Light Force.

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What I mean is, why couldn't he just be abducting them to stroke his ego? He did take Hyrule Castle as his own in TMC after all.

It's still a complete shift of motivation. Something happened to him, or else he'd of kidnapped Zelda to steal the remaining bits of her Light Force, not just for ego-stroking. Every action Vaati takes may have an ego-stroking element, but they also have a practical purpose for boosting his power.

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We're not exactly put in a situation where he'd really be talking to Link though.

It's the same situation where he should be giving witty banter.

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How would changing the castle itself alter the sky though? Even then, if Vaati's just good at distorting things, why couldn't the site of the final battle just be incredibly distorted to reflect Vaati's sheer power at that point? If Vaati can create mobius strips and people like Zant can change the world around them, I don't see why the location of the final battle couldn't be created or put together by Vaati.

Either way, the difference is that in the third phase, he's constructing a space from scratch instead of distorting already available space. To me, that suggests something is different.

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Ghostly wings typically serve no function though, and angels aren't exactly ghosts either.

I specifically brought up "cartoon angels" for lack of a better term; you know, how in Looney Tunes, when they blow up they get angel wings and a harp?

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He's possessing a bird with a piece of fruit; that itself doesn't exactly stick to physical possibility, and Daphnes has magical powers, explaining why he could alter the boat.

What I mean is that Link isn't doing anything with the bird that is physically impossible for the bird to do. It's not comparable. Besides, isolated by itself this would've been a valid point, but it's just one of many, many, many ghostly traits Daphnes possesses, and absolutely nothing implying that he is physically alive.

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The Triforce doesn't have to be present for someone to be the master of it; see Ganon in ALttP. Daphnes clearly wanted to stick around and tell the kids one last thing before sending them off.

Ganon kept it in a room just behind him, I wouldn't really consider that proof of anything. Daphnes clearly dismisses the Triforce; even if he did keep possession of it, it wouldn't mean anything one way or another, because he still has Goddess-given right to stay in the living world.

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However, Vaati would have just been killed about three minutes ago after giving an angry "I can't lose to a mortal!" speech. His calmness, smug laugh, and the timing of the lightning bolt make it feel more like a "Lol I troll you" moment.

I don't see why they're mutually exclusive, given Vaati's personality and behavior throughout the whole game.

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The Triforce also grants wishes, but people lose the Triforce/the Triforce pieces when they die.

The Minish Cap does not "serve you as long as you live" though. We can't assume it works by the same rules as the Triforce whatsoever.

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I just figured that Vaati had a magical pocket of his own or something. Also, if the Minish Cap had become one with Vaati and stayed a part of him even after death, why would he lose it after the third phase?

Because he was defeated, duh. This isn't the first time villains burp out relics they've fused with when they die.

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Except his body doesn't shatter or break at all; Vaati clearly wills his transformation, changing his body into the flying eye while flaunting his power.

His body is glowing and pixellating while he says this though. I always got the impression that his body was dying, but then he said "fuck that" and willed himself into his second form.

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While he is said to be a being of pure hatred and evil, Ganondorf was known as the evil incarnation of darkness in OoT yet wasn't dead, and Sharp, Flat, and possibly Dampe just muddle the whole issue. Also, didn't the description of Poes in the translations thread merely define them as the spirits of people who hated the world up till their deaths?

Also, no other enemy in the series has demonstrated an ability to immediately become a super Poe or something along those lines.

No other enemy has had relics like the Light Force and the Minish Cap when they died; stop trying to weasel out with these shoddy analogies.

Ganondorf being known as an evil incarnation of darkness only exists in the English Translation, it's kind of a Woosleyism; even if it wasn't, he technically IS an evil incarnation of darkness, since he turned himself into a big motherfucking demon.

A spirit that hated the world up to their death and a spirit composed of darkness aren't metaphysically any different from each other.

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I'm certainly not trying to be like Lex and I apologize if I sounded similar to him. I just don't see any reason in the game itself to believe that Vaati died before Link defeated his final form. The stuff leading up to that just seems like general "Tremble at my power you filthy peasants/final form/lol jk this is my real final form" villainy.

Either way, there's in-game basis to go either way if we disregard the figurines, and guess what? The figurines said so, and they're canonical.

[Average Gamer]

Since, as I mentioned in the end of my last post, we're not going to agree on the Vaati issue, I'm only responding to some particular small things that stood out:

MikePetersSucks said:

He had divine, or powerful demonic, relics in each instance

OoT Ganondorf had powerful, demonic magic of his own before ever claiming the ToP though, and you, a while back, even said that he possessed certain demonic traits before he acquired the ToP.

MikePetersSucks said:

It's still a complete shift of motivation. Something happened to him

What if he was just reincarnated? It would explain why he wasn't trying to grab the last of the Light Force.

MikePetersSucks said:

What I mean is that Link isn't doing anything with the bird that is physically impossible for the bird to do. It's not comparable.

Again, with the vast amounts of magic and possession by the living in the series, I ultimately don't see why Daphnes couldn't have simply been using magic to control and alter the boat, almost like an advanced form of controlling a seagull with a Huoy Pear or a statue with the Dominion Rod. He might have even inherited the role of Sage from OoT Zelda, but that's probably a discussion in itself.

MikePetersSucks said:

Ganon kept it in a room just behind him

He seems to have been empowered by it while acting as Agahnim in the Light World though.

MikePetersSucks said:

Because he was defeated, duh. This isn't the first time villains burp out relics they've fused with when they die.

But if it's a matter of losing something upon death, shouldn't Vaati have lost the Minish Cap after the first phase, going off of the figurine descriptions?

MikePetersSucks said:

Ganondorf being known as an evil incarnation of darkness only exists in the English Translation, it's kind of a Woosleyism; even if it wasn't, he technically IS an evil incarnation of darkness, since he turned himself into a big motherfucking demon.

The line does exist in the Japanese version.

Rauru said:

ハイラルを　創りたまいし 古代の　神々よ！ 今こそ　封印の扉　開きて 邪悪なる　闇の化身を 冥府の彼方へ　葬りたまえ！！
Ancient gods who created Hyrule! Open the sealed door now and entomb the evil incarnation of darkness beyond the realm of the dead!!
Ancient Creators of Hyrule! Now, open the sealed door and send the Evil Incarnation of Darkness into the void of the Evil Realm!!

Also, incarnation typically implies that a person or being was born or created as something, not that they later became something. The Japanese might view the word differently though.

MikePetersSucks said:

A spirit that hated the world up to their death and a spirit composed of darkness aren't metaphysically any different from each other.

What's the metaphysical basis behind that? Sharp, Flat, and Dampe might be Poes, but they certainly aren't evil, dark entities like Vaati. Please explain.

This post has been edited by Average Gamer: 14 January 2010 - 05:45 PM

[Destiny]

Someone?

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This spot marks the remains of an ancient
fairy fountain. The legendary hero was said
to come here after battle so the fairies
could ease his weariness.
It was also said that whoever met with the
Great Fairy who lived here was blessed
with great fortune, so it came to be known
as the Fountain of the Fortune Goddess.

I'm trying to see if TMC connects with TWW.

[MikePetersSucks]

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OoT Ganondorf had powerful, demonic magic of his own before ever claiming the ToP though, and you, a while back, even said that he possessed certain demonic traits before he acquired the ToP.

Some guy fucking with black magic isn't the same as being a Demon Lord, though, in strictness of the word. Either way, Ganon and Vaati still aren't comparable.

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What if he was just reincarnated? It would explain why he wasn't trying to grab the last of the Light Force.

Even without the Light Force, it's still a shift in motivation, and it's still uncanny that he happens to become his Wind Mage form with no explanation. Occam's Razor kicks in, for me, and leads to an imperfect revival of some sort.

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Again, with the vast amounts of magic and possession by the living in the series, I ultimately don't see why Daphnes couldn't have simply been using magic to control and alter the boat, almost like an advanced form of controlling a seagull with a Huoy Pear or a statue with the Dominion Rod. He might have even inherited the role of Sage from OoT Zelda, but that's probably a discussion in itself.

If it was the only trait he had, sure, but combined with his ghostly aportations, his unaging, eternal lifespan, his apparent ability to not need to breathe or eat or anything, etcetera etcetera. There's no evidence he's alive at all, and he's already a metaphorical ghost of the past. Might as well just go with it being literal. The idea of Daphnes being a living person is an uphill battle.

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He seems to have been empowered by it while acting as Agahnim in the Light World though.

Because he owned it. And it was in a room in his castle right behind where he sat every day. That's nowhere near comparable to a guy making a wish that is heavily implied to include removing the Triforce from any active role in the future of the world, as it then vanishes into the sky for atleast hundreds of years.

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But if it's a matter of losing something upon death, shouldn't Vaati have lost the Minish Cap after the first phase, going off of the figurine descriptions?

His spirit was not yet vanquished; multiple times in Zelda, we're shown that ghosts can still possess rights and ownership of titles and objects, and that their presence in the living world is enough to satisfy criteria for being "alive."

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The line does exist in the Japanese version.

Oh, shit, I was thinking of something from Majora's Mask for some reason. I was sloshed, I guess.

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Also, incarnation typically implies that a person or being was born or created as something, not that they later became something. The Japanese might view the word differently though.

That's not how the word "incarnation" works at all. All it means is that you're an embodiment of some concept, either literally as you're stating, or metaphorically, such as saying "That beautiful girl was an incarnation of beauty, an embodiment of all my dreams and passions." Ganondorf, the King of Evil who was shrouding the world in darkness and evil, was certainly an incarnation of dark forces.

Even with the supernatural, literalist view, this is satisfied by his supernatural transformation into a big ass fucking demon.

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What's the metaphysical basis behind that? Sharp, Flat, and Dampe might be Poes, but they certainly aren't evil, dark entities like Vaati. Please explain.

In most mythologies, spirits are pretty much nothing more than the lingering sentiments and attachments of a dead person. The Enemy Poes may be spirits of hatred, but not necessarily Sharp, Flat, and Dampe.

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I'm trying to see if TMC connects with TWW.

It doesn't; furthermore, the quote you supplied doesn't...have anything that even hints towards TWW.

[Average Gamer]

MikePetersSucks, on 14 January 2010 - 08:56 PM, said:

Even without the Light Force, it's still a shift in motivation, and it's still uncanny that he happens to become his Wind Mage form with no explanation.

The reincarnated Ganondorf didn't appear to have any desire for the Triforce in FSA, and considering the Okami reference from earlier in this thread and the various Malons, Tingles, etc. looking the same, I personally just think that Vaati reincarnated for FS' backstory. We should probably leave it at that.

MikePetersSucks said:

If it was the only trait he had, sure, but combined with his ghostly aportations, his unaging, eternal lifespan, his apparent ability to not need to breathe or eat or anything

If by his ghostly aportations you mean Daphnes teleporting in Hyrule Castle, that may have just been regular teleporting; he'd have to control the boat again anyway, so there'd be no point in walking to it with Link. As for his life span, we know that magic can make people live absurdly long lives in the Zelda series, and Daphnes spent most of his time as a boat, which obviously wouldn't need to eat. While I agree that he was a symbol of the past, I don't necessarily see why he has to be dead. We're not going to sway each other, so let's leave it at that.

MikePetersSucks said:

Because he owned it. And it was in a room in his castle right behind where he sat every day.

But Daphnes owned the Triforce too, and Agahnim was in the Light World, not sitting next to the Triforce in the Dark World.

MikePetersSucks said:

His spirit was not yet vanquished; multiple times in Zelda, we're shown that ghosts can still possess rights and ownership of titles and objects, and that their presence in the living world is enough to satisfy criteria for being "alive."

I still don't see how beating up Vaati's ghost twice would separate him from the Minish Cap when outright killing him wouldn't have worked. I also find it hard to believe that Vaati almost immediately came back as an incredibly powerful ghost twice.

MikePetersSucks said:

That's not how the word "incarnation" works at all. All it means is that you're an embodiment of some concept, either literally as you're stating, or metaphorically, such as saying "That beautiful girl was an incarnation of beauty, an embodiment of all my dreams and passions." Ganondorf, the King of Evil who was shrouding the world in darkness and evil, was certainly an incarnation of dark forces.

Considering the prophecy involving Ganondorf, I took it to mean that Ganondorf would have been born as a wicked figure meant to destroy the world, not as a metaphorical incarnation. I guess it'd be up to interpretation though.

MikePetersSucks said:

In most mythologies, spirits are pretty much nothing more than the lingering sentiments and attachments of a dead person. The Enemy Poes may be spirits of hatred, but not necessarily Sharp, Flat, and Dampe.

So when you were comparing Poes to Vaati, you only meant in the lingering sentiment way? I thought you were saying that hating the world was metaphysically the same as being a vicious demon.

[MikePetersSucks]

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The reincarnated Ganondorf didn't appear to have any desire for the Triforce in FSA, and considering the Okami reference from earlier in this thread and the various Malons, Tingles, etc. looking the same, I personally just think that Vaati reincarnated for FS' backstory. We should probably leave it at that.

Ganon has an explanation for his powers, though. At the very least, let's just say it could be either one. Either way, this Vaati doesn't possess the same consciousness as the one defeated in TMC. Deal?

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If by his ghostly aportations you mean Daphnes teleporting in Hyrule Castle, that may have just been regular teleporting; he'd have to control the boat again anyway, so there'd be no point in walking to it with Link. As for his life span, we know that magic can make people live absurdly long lives in the Zelda series, and Daphnes spent most of his time as a boat, which obviously wouldn't need to eat. While I agree that he was a symbol of the past, I don't necessarily see why he has to be dead. We're not going to sway each other, so let's leave it at that.

His possessing a boat most of the time doesn't solve his lack of needing food, water, and oxygen. If you're comparing him to Link, then his body must be somewhere during his possessions, right?

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But Daphnes owned the Triforce too, and Agahnim was in the Light World, not sitting next to the Triforce in the Dark World.

Ganon didn't cease existing just because Agahnim was his soul-split. He was in two places at once.

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I still don't see how beating up Vaati's ghost twice would separate him from the Minish Cap when outright killing him wouldn't have worked. I also find it hard to believe that Vaati almost immediately came back as an incredibly powerful ghost twice.

After enough beat-downs, Link apparently defeated his spirit so it couldn't do any evil stuff anymore, like when he kills ghosts and shit with his sword. This isn't an issue.

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Considering the prophecy involving Ganondorf, I took it to mean that Ganondorf would have been born as a wicked figure meant to destroy the world, not as a metaphorical incarnation. I guess it'd be up to interpretation though.

Which prophecy? Ganondorf is never named in any of them, so he just happens to be the person who rises up to claim the role of Villain.

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So when you were comparing Poes to Vaati, you only meant in the lingering sentiment way? I thought you were saying that hating the world was metaphysically the same as being a vicious demon.

Indeed. If hating the world was enough to be a demon, then there wouldn't be nice demons in the Zelda universe like there are, and...well, Tingle's brothers would be Maou of the highest calibur.

[Average Gamer]

MikePetersSucks, on 14 January 2010 - 11:25 PM, said:

His possessing a boat most of the time doesn't solve his lack of needing food, water, and oxygen. If you're comparing him to Link, then his body must be somewhere during his possessions, right?

I was actually thinking that Daphnes may have possessed the boat in a manner similar to how Ganondorf possessed Zelda's body in TP. I mainly mentioned Link and the seagulls just because that instance is from the same game as Daphnes.

MikePetersSucks said:

Ganon didn't cease existing just because Agahnim was his soul-split. He was in two places at once.

I know that. What I'm saying is that the Agahnim half appears to have also been empowered by the Triforce, even though that half was in another dimension.

MikePetersSucks said:

After enough beat-downs, Link apparently defeated his spirit so it couldn't do any evil stuff anymore, like when he kills ghosts and shit with his sword.

Those ghosts are generally defeated after one beat-down though. Going by the figurines, ghost Vaati would have been defeated and banished like a Poe or something before coming back again on steroids. I just kind of find that hard to believe, as it'd seem like Vaati would more or less get infinite respawns from being pissed or whatever his reason was. I'll leave it at that.

MikePetersSucks said:

Which prophecy? Ganondorf is never named in any of them

The whole "Evil will cover Hyrule and the Hero of Time will save us" prophecy. He wasn't named, but I took it that he'd still arguably count as a prophetic figure.

[Destiny]

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It doesn't; furthermore, the quote you supplied doesn't...have anything that even hints towards TWW.

TMC: There's a fairy in the minish woods which makes your wallet bigger.
TWW: There's a fairy in the forbidden woods which makes your wallet bigger.

There's definitely something.

[MikePetersSucks]

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I know that. What I'm saying is that the Agahnim half appears to have also been empowered by the Triforce, even though that half was in another dimension.

Because Agahnim is Ganon, and Ganon owns the Triforce.

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Those ghosts are generally defeated after one beat-down though. Going by the figurines, ghost Vaati would have been defeated and banished like a Poe or something before coming back again on steroids. I just kind of find that hard to believe, as it'd seem like Vaati would more or less get infinite respawns from being pissed or whatever his reason was. I'll leave it at that.

Nintendo rules say bosses get three free phases. I wouldn't try and base any metaphysics around it. Suffice to say he was indeed pissed enough to come back a second time, but not a third.

For whatever it's worth, the Four Sword played the biggest role in the third phase, so maybe that's it.

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The whole "Evil will cover Hyrule and the Hero of Time will save us" prophecy. He wasn't named, but I took it that he'd still arguably count as a prophetic figure.

Because Ganondorf's the only evil person who tried to get the Triforce, ever.

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TMC: There's a fairy in the minish woods which makes your wallet bigger.
TWW: There's a fairy in the forbidden woods which makes your wallet bigger.

There's definitely something.

There's always been fairies in Zelda games that give you bigger wallets or bomb bags or whatever the fuck. It's not any big deal.

[Average Gamer]

MikePetersSucks, on 15 January 2010 - 08:06 PM, said:

Because Agahnim is Ganon, and Ganon owns the Triforce.

Yeah, but a part of Ganon, Agahnim, is being empowered by the Triforce even though Agahnim and the Triforce are in separate dimensions. It would appear that the Triforce can empower its master no matter how far away its master is.

MikePetersSucks said:

Nintendo rules say bosses get three free phases. I wouldn't try and base any metaphysics around it. Suffice to say he was indeed pissed enough to come back a second time, but not a third.

However, the post-battle statement for Vaati's third phase starts off just as angry and hateful as the post-battle statement for his second phase. In my opinion, it seems as though his angry rant is only stopped by some sort of horrifying realization. I'll leave it at that.

MikePowersSucks said:

Because Ganondorf's the only evil person who tried to get the Triforce, ever.

I'm not saying that others haven't tried to claim the Triforce; I just think that Ganondorf may have literally been born as the evil incarnation of darkness simply because he appears to be an apocalyptic figure from a prophecy.

This post has been edited by Average Gamer: 15 January 2010 - 10:28 PM

[Destiny]

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There's always been fairies in Zelda games that give you bigger wallets or bomb bags or whatever the fuck. It's not any big deal.

It's just the fact that they're both in the forest and that a hero's visited them etc. I find it a bit hard to ignore.

[MikePetersSucks]

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Yeah, but a part of Ganon, Agahnim, is being empowered by the Triforce even though Agahnim and the Triforce are in separate dimensions. It would appear that the Triforce can empower its master no matter how far away its master is.

Ganon is in the same dimension as the Triforce, so that's moot. Either way, I'm not saying the Triforce is limited by distance, or anything. I'm just saying that King Daphne's wish negated his own ownership, and this is visually shown.

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However, the post-battle statement for Vaati's third phase starts off just as angry and hateful as the post-battle statement for his second phase. In my opinion, it seems as though his angry rant is only stopped by some sort of horrifying realization. I'll leave it at that.

Or his ass was just beat enough. That's how it goes.

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I'm not saying that others haven't tried to claim the Triforce; I just think that Ganondorf may have literally been born as the evil incarnation of darkness simply because he appears to be an apocalyptic figure from a prophecy.

That's silly, not to mention totally incompatible with the whole aesop about Ganondorf representing the greed and evil potential of mortal men.

[Average Gamer]

MikePetersSucks, on 15 January 2010 - 09:39 PM, said:

Ganon is in the same dimension as the Triforce, so that's moot.

Again, the Agahnim part isn't in the same dimension as the Triforce. That's what I'm trying to point out.

MikePetersSucks said:

I'm just saying that King Daphne's wish negated his own ownership, and this is visually shown.

How? I figured that he never gave up ownership until after the kids were removed from Hyrule.

MikePetersSucks said:

That's silly, not to mention totally incompatible with the whole aesop about Ganondorf representing the greed and evil potential of mortal men.

I don't see why it's necessarily silly. Also, as far as an aesop for Ganondorf goes, wasn't he stated by a Gerudo in FSA to have seemingly become more evil every year for no apparent reason?

[MikePetersSucks]

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Again, the Agahnim part isn't in the same dimension as the Triforce. That's what I'm trying to point out.

It doesn't matter, he's the same person as Ganon, who IS in the same dimension as the Triforce.

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How? I figured that he never gave up ownership until after the kids were removed from Hyrule.

I don't see any indication of that. His wish negates ownership by virtue of what he wished for: Hope for a future that's completely unfettered by the past. It's then that Hyrule starts flooding and beginning it's destruction: I can't imagine what sort of metaphysical inertia would make him hold onto his Triforce ownership until after the fight for some weird-ass reason.

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I don't see why it's necessarily silly. Also, as far as an aesop for Ganondorf goes, wasn't he stated by a Gerudo in FSA to have seemingly become more evil every year for no apparent reason?

And Vaati was enchanted by the evil in the hearts of men. What the hell is your point?

[Average Gamer]

MikePetersSucks, on 15 January 2010 - 11:03 PM, said:

It doesn't matter, he's the same person as Ganon, who IS in the same dimension as the Triforce.

Except power is still crossing the realms to reach the Agahnim half, suggesting that the Triforce can empower its master regardless of distance and location.

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I don't see any indication of that. His wish negates ownership by virtue of what he wished for: Hope for a future that's completely unfettered by the past. It's then that Hyrule starts flooding and beginning it's destruction: I can't imagine what sort of metaphysical inertia would make him hold onto his Triforce ownership until after the fight for some weird-ass reason.

However, Hyrule wasn't fully flooded until after Daphnes said his final words to the kids, instructing them to avoid the problems that burdened Ganondorf and himself. I just figured that Daphnes planned to relinquish the Triforce and kill himself only after everything else was taken care of.

MikePetersSucks said:

And Vaati was enchanted by the evil in the hearts of men. What the hell is your point?

What I meant was that Ganondorf doesn't seem to be much of an aesop if he seemingly became evil and destructive for apparently no reason in FSA.

This post has been edited by Average Gamer: 16 January 2010 - 06:55 AM

[MikePetersSucks]

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Except power is still crossing the realms to reach the Agahnim half, suggesting that the Triforce can empower its master regardless of distance and location.

This is of course assuming that the universe recognizes there's a distance between the two halves. Anyway, it doesn't matter; no one was refuting that the Triforce is limited by space, because that's stupid, considering that it regulates it.

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However, Hyrule wasn't fully flooded until after Daphnes said his final words to the kids, instructing them to avoid the problems that burdened Ganondorf and himself. I just figured that Daphnes planned to relinquish the Triforce and kill himself only after everything else was taken care of.

The wish calls for giving hope to the children. Drowning them is going against the wish, so I just assumed the initial wish made the water fall AROUND them, and actively protected them until they reached the surface again.

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What I meant was that Ganondorf doesn't seem to be much of an aesop if he seemingly became evil and destructive for apparently no reason in FSA.

Just because we're not given a reason doesn't mean anything. He could've just been a total pissant who grew more and more discontent with the Gerudo lifestyle, or his greed for power started at an early age due to him being spoiled royalty. Or hell, maybe it's because he's the reincarnation of a previous Ganondorf (who had non-supernatural origins for his evil), and he's being "jumpstarted" in his evil career because of his resonance to the Trident.

[Average Gamer]

MikePetersSucks, on 16 January 2010 - 12:17 PM, said:

Just because we're not given a reason doesn't mean anything. He could've just been a total pissant who grew more and more discontent with the Gerudo lifestyle, or his greed for power started at an early age due to him being spoiled royalty.

FSA Ganondorf wasn't actually royalty. Anyway, I guess there could be an aesop of sorts with him, though it feels a little shallow, as though the aesop were "Some people are dicks".

This post has been edited by Average Gamer: 16 January 2010 - 04:22 PM

[MikePetersSucks]

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FSA Ganondorf wasn't actually royalty. Anyway, I guess there could be an aesop of sorts with him, though it feels a little shallow, as though the aesop were "Some people are dicks".

He's the male Gerudo, therefore he's their prince.

Also, the Aesop = greed corrupts, blah blah, power is dangerous, radda bladdah.

[Average Gamer]

MikePetersSucks, on 17 January 2010 - 12:41 AM, said:

He's the male Gerudo, therefore he's their prince.

I recall FSA Ganondorf being called a guardian of the desert, meaning that he'd have been born with eternal guard duty.

MikePetersSucks said:

Also, the Aesop = greed corrupts, blah blah, power is dangerous, radda bladdah.

I knew what you were suggesting, I just think that FSA Ganondorf, who seemingly wanted to conquer and ravage the world out of boredom, doesn't feel like much of a "greed is bad/beware power" aesop. The dude's just a dick.

[MikePetersSucks]

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I recall FSA Ganondorf being called a guardian of the desert, meaning that he'd have been born with eternal guard duty.

Kings tend to be eternal guards of their dominions. Especially when they're kings of desert nomad thief tribes that can't be afforded extra luxuries.

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I knew what you were suggesting, I just think that FSA Ganondorf, who seemingly wanted to conquer and ravage the world out of boredom, doesn't feel like much of a "greed is bad/beware power" aesop. The dude's just a dick.

I figured his obsessiveness with absorbing every drop of energy he could get his hands on was a pretty clear "Dude is obsessed with power" thing.

But yea, he is a dick.

[Average Gamer]

Today I found a line in TWW that I'd like to see translated just for clarification.

Ganondorf said:

You have deceived yourself...

Did you think you'd be safe inside the castle? Foolish...

Now that my power has been restored, there is no safe haven for you!

I have taken your precious Zelda.

And here, you shall fall into eternal slumber!

NoA appears to have translated this quote based off of their mistranslation of Ganondorf's "Mazoku" speech in the Forsaken Fortress. Does the Japanese version of the above quote simply refer to Ganondorf's Mazoku?

This post has been edited by Average Gamer: 19 January 2010 - 10:23 PM

[MikePetersSucks]

Yea, it does. I think we've done that line before, anyway, but I'm not sure.

[Average Gamer]

MikePetersSucks, on 20 January 2010 - 12:48 PM, said:

Yea, it does. I think we've done that line before, anyway, but I'm not sure.

I couldn't find that line in the translations sticky. Everything between the Hero of Winds and Puppet Ganon cutscenes was skipped over.

[Jarsh]

Nerushi, on 09 January 2010 - 01:00 PM, said:

Quote

『ふしぎの木の実』は、カプコン制作。最初から3つのトライフォースが揃っており、ガノンが既に封印され、リンクがハイラル城に出入りできる立場にあり、ゼルダ姫とも面識がある世界観から、『神々のトライフォース』『夢を見る島』の後の話と推測される。当時発売された『64DREAM』等の雑誌では、『ふしぎの木の実』の情報として『神々のトライフォース』のリンクと同一人物と報じていた。『時のオカリナ』とは同名の別人と思われるツインローバがガノン復活に尽力し、最後はその身を捧げてガノンを召喚するも、トライフォースを宿したリンクに再び滅ぼされる。『夢を見る島』と『ふしぎの木の実』がどちらが前か後かははっきりしていない。しかし、『ふしぎの木の実』のエンディングにリンクが海へ出航するシーンが存在し、『夢をみる島』ではリンクが船で遭難するところから始まるため、『ふしぎの木の実』から『夢をみる島』へと物語が続いていると見る事もできる。

I used a less shitty online Japanese translator, and I think the overall message is a little clearer.

Quote

"Strange nuts" are Capcom production. 3 of try force is even from the beginning, and a moth non seals up already, and a link is infered from the worldview which has acquaintance with Zelda princess, too with talk after "try force of gods" "Shima who has a dream" in the viewpoint where you can go in and out of a HAIRARU castle. A link of "try force of gods" and the identical figure were being reported as information on "strange nuts" by a magazine of the "64DREAM" etc. sold then. TSUINROBA which seems a homonymous another person endeavors after a moth non recovery with "ocarina at time", the end offers the body, and, a moth non, it's summoned, it's destroyed by the link pregnant with try force again. It isn't certain where "Shima who has a dream" and "strange nuts" are the front or the back. But the scene from which a link sails to a sea exists in an ending of "strange nuts", and then for "Shima who has a dream to start from the place where a link is in distress by ship, it's possible to think a story follows "Shima who has a dream" from "strange nuts".

Despite "link pregnant with try force again", it seems a little clearer.

[MikePetersSucks]

Okay, stop the fandom, take a break, we got a new mission besides figuring out the timeline.

"link pregnant with try force again" must be made into the new meme. The CD-i videos have been overthrown.

[Showsni]

Jarsh, on 21 January 2010 - 05:18 AM, said:

Nerushi, on 09 January 2010 - 01:00 PM, said:

Quote

『ふしぎの木の実』は、カプコン制作。最初から3つのトライフォースが揃っており、ガノンが既に封印され、リンクがハイラル城に出入りできる立場にあり、ゼルダ姫とも面識がある世界観から、『神々のトライフォース』『夢を見る島』の後の話と推測される。当時発売された『64DREAM』等の雑誌では、『ふしぎの木の実』の情報として『神々のトライフォース』のリンクと同一人物と報じていた。『時のオカリナ』とは同名の別人と思われるツインローバがガノン復活に尽力し、最後はその身を捧げてガノンを召喚するも、トライフォースを宿したリンクに再び滅ぼされる。『夢を見る島』と『ふしぎの木の実』がどちらが前か後かははっきりしていない。しかし、『ふしぎの木の実』のエンディングにリンクが海へ出航するシーンが存在し、『夢をみる島』ではリンクが船で遭難するところから始まるため、『ふしぎの木の実』から『夢をみる島』へと物語が続いていると見る事もできる。

I used a less shitty online Japanese translator, and I think the overall message is a little clearer.

Quote

"Strange nuts" are Capcom production. 3 of try force is even from the beginning, and a moth non seals up already, and a link is infered from the worldview which has acquaintance with Zelda princess, too with talk after "try force of gods" "Shima who has a dream" in the viewpoint where you can go in and out of a HAIRARU castle. A link of "try force of gods" and the identical figure were being reported as information on "strange nuts" by a magazine of the "64DREAM" etc. sold then. TSUINROBA which seems a homonymous another person endeavors after a moth non recovery with "ocarina at time", the end offers the body, and, a moth non, it's summoned, it's destroyed by the link pregnant with try force again. It isn't certain where "Shima who has a dream" and "strange nuts" are the front or the back. But the scene from which a link sails to a sea exists in an ending of "strange nuts", and then for "Shima who has a dream to start from the place where a link is in distress by ship, it's possible to think a story follows "Shima who has a dream" from "strange nuts".

Despite "link pregnant with try force again", it seems a little clearer.

A translation programme I used came up with

Quote

Capcom production of 'Nut of mystery'.

Three trial force becomes complete from the beginning, and it is guessed the story after 'Trial force of the pantheon' and 'Island where it has the dream' from the outlook on the world [ganon] has already been sealed, it exists in the standpoint from which the link can go in and out to the Hailar castle, and with the princess Zelda and acquaintance.

In the magazine such as '64DREAM' put on the market at that time, it was reported the link and the same person of 'Trial force of the pantheon' as information on 'Nut of the mystery'.

It is destroyed again by the link where the trial force is borne , saying that 'Ocarina' though [tsuinro-ba] that seems that the another person of the same name it endeavors in the [ganon] revival, and the body is dedicated and [ganon] is summoned at the end.

'Island where it has the dream' and 'Nut of the mystery' are not clear which the back ahead.

However, the scene that the link sails to the sea at the ending of 'Nut of the mystery' exists, and the link is good at 'Island where the dream is seen' because it meets an accident by the ship at the thing expected to be continuation of 'Island where the dream is seen' from 'Nut of the mystery' and the story because of the start of it.

Or, in better English,

Quote

Capcom's production Oracle of Ages/Seasons.

The whole triforce is complete in the beginning, and it is guessed that the story takes place after ALttP and LA judging by the world's status; Ganon has already been sealed, and Link can freely come and go from Hyrule castle and is an acquaintance of Princess Zelda.

Magazines such as "64DREAM" published at the time reported that Link from OoX was the same person as the one in ALttP.

Twinrova, who has the same name as a character from OoT, attempts to revive Ganon, ultimately sacrificing her body to summon him; he is destroyed by Link, bearing the triforce.

It's not clear which of OoX and LA comes first.

However, there is a scene showing Link sailing away to sea at the end of OoX, whereas Link meets with an accident at sea at the start of LA, so it's possible that LA follows on from OoX.

[Jarsh]

^
Yours is much, much clearer than the translation I found; great work. However, it does lack the vital information of Link's pregnancy with the try force; very unfortunate.

At any rate, it seems like it's just simple speculation from the Japanese Wikipedia. I would like the see this issue of 64 Dream about OoX's Link being the same as ALttP's Link; specifically if it was talking about OoX pre-release (maybe even beta) or post-release.

[MikePetersSucks]

Lol all that translating work for something that's factually wrong on multiple accounts. Great work.

[Average Gamer]

I've found two images that give certain bosses and mini-bosses strange English names. Yes, I am aware that they are freakishly small, but Imageshack is being a bitch. The pictures were large enough for the text to be perfectly legible on the site where I found these images.

This post has been edited by Average Gamer: 18 February 2010 - 07:51 PM

[Average Gamer]

Sorry for double posting. Anyway, I thought that the content in this ZU thread:

http://www.zeldauniv...ream-devil.html

could be interesting. The ZU poster bitterlime claims that, via some translating work of his own, Bellum's Japanese name and title translate to "Bellum the Dream Devil." If this hasn't already been investigated, could someone please try to shed some light on this? Thanks in advance.