[FDL]

Raien, on Apr 25 2009, 09:10 PM, said:

If Trinen is not capable of accurately translating the game when the meaning hinges on a good translation, or insists upon forcing timeline connections that do not exist in the original text, then I have no faith in Trinen in my timeline theorising. Yes, he's a good translator otherwise, but I'm not here to talk about that. I'm here to talk about the official timeline, to which Trinen's translations are an impediment. That's why we've got an entire topic here dedicated to ignoring Trinen's translations.

If you don't mind my asking, what's this in reference to? Off the top of my head I cannot think of anything Trinen has done that ruined timeline theorizing or something to that affect.

[Raien]

FDL, on Apr 26 2009, 05:09 PM, said:

If you don't mind my asking, what's this in reference to? Off the top of my head I cannot think of anything Trinen has done that ruined timeline theorizing or something to that affect.

Well, I don't believe I need to list the translation mistakes Trinen has made over the years. As for forced timeline connections, I'm thinking particularly of his attempt to put MM on the same timeline as TWW, and his attempt to suggest that TP's back story was the IW. If we didn't have the Japanese translations handy, we'd by fucking ourselves up over trying to understand how TP relates to ALttP and so on.

This post has been edited by Raien: 26 April 2009 - 11:30 AM

[MikePetersSucks]

....Lol, did Raien just bag on Bill Trinen because he didn't make the implied Onmyoji thing obvious?

It's not the dialogue that's the problem, it's that Bill had to translate words and phrases that A) have no English translation, or B) have synonyms in English that don't exist in the real world. For example, there's literally two words for Twilight that are meant to be used in different contexts. If he changed these words to Twilight and, say, I don't know, Dusk, fans would tear him a new asshole.

There's no such thing as a perfect translation of Japanese to English, and you're ripping on a guy for not being able to do so. That's the most arrogant, assholish thing I've seen outside of Lex's bullshit.

[Raien]

MikePetersSucks, on Apr 26 2009, 07:25 PM, said:

....Lol, did Raien just bag on Bill Trinen because he didn't make the implied Onmyoji thing obvious?

No. There's several other examples that I've already just raised and I'm not going to bother repeating.

Quote

There's no such thing as a perfect translation of Japanese to English, and you're ripping on a guy for not being able to do so. That's the most arrogant, assholish thing I've seen outside of Lex's bullshit.

And it's not arrogant when people say the same of Owsen? I know Owsen added a lot of peripheral stuff, but most of what he translated was accurate enough to follow the original storyline.

But really, it depends on whether we're talking about general enjoyment of the games or timeline theorising. If we're talking about game enjoyment, then I don't expect or need a perfect translation of the game. I'm happy so long as I can understand what's going on, and thankfully there's only a few occasions where Trinen has got me confused. As hard a job as I expect translating Japanese is, I expect Trinen to concentrate on making sure the important lines were translated accurately. Context is important.

But if we're talking about timeline theorising, then I absolutely expect perfection. If I want to understand the official timeline, I'm going to need to know what the writers are saying. And considering the fact that we have a topic for creating fan translations, and that we are now using fan translations in regular debate, then there really is no better way of saying that the theorising community has no faith in Trinen's translations.

So in both contexts, I don't see Trinen's translations as being any better than Owsen's translations. They're both generally enjoyable, but unreliable for theorists. I see no reason to put Trinen on a pedestal considering no one actually refers to his translations in theorising.

This post has been edited by Raien: 26 April 2009 - 02:48 PM

[FDL]

Raien, on Apr 26 2009, 12:21 PM, said:

FDL, on Apr 26 2009, 05:09 PM, said:

If you don't mind my asking, what's this in reference to? Off the top of my head I cannot think of anything Trinen has done that ruined timeline theorizing or something to that affect.

Well, I don't believe I need to list the translation mistakes Trinen has made over the years. As for forced timeline connections, I'm thinking particularly of his attempt to put MM on the same timeline as TWW, and his attempt to suggest that TP's back story was the IW. If we didn't have the Japanese translations handy, we'd by fucking ourselves up over trying to understand how TP relates to ALttP and so on.

I see what you mean with the Wind Waker stuff, but I think even the Japanese version of TP seems to make reference to the times of conflict mentioned in ALttP and OoT with the lines you're talking about. And we know those lines weren't talking about the IW because Ganondorf came by much later on. (I'm assuming you're referring to the stuff said by Lanayru and that old woman in the market. Correct me if I'm mistaken.)

Anyway, did Dan Owsen do OoT? If so, that redeems him a bit, as from what we've seen of the JP version he did a pretty great job translating.

[Raien]

FDL, on Apr 26 2009, 09:07 PM, said:

I see what you mean with the Wind Waker stuff, but I think even the Japanese version of TP seems to make reference to the times of conflict mentioned in ALttP and OoT with the lines you're talking about. And we know those lines weren't talking about the IW because Ganondorf came by much later on. (I'm assuming you're referring to the stuff said by Lanayru and that old woman in the market. Correct me if I'm mistaken.)

TP's war for Hyrule, in which the Twili's ancestors were sealed, fits pretty strongly with the war over Hyrule in OoT's back story. Both games make it clear in the text that the fighting was for conquest over the kingdom of Hyrule. I don't know if they really have to be the same event, but there's no reason why they shouldn't.

The fighting in ALttP's back story, on the other hand, was not defined as a war for the conquest of the kingdom. It was defined as more general fighting to find the location of the Sacred Realm. It's clearly not the same context, and I don't associate them at all.

[Average Gamer]

Raien, on Apr 26 2009, 01:17 PM, said:

TP's war for Hyrule, in which the Twili's ancestors were sealed, fits pretty strongly with the war over Hyrule in OoT's back story. Both games make it clear in the text that the fighting was for conquest over the kingdom of Hyrule. I don't know if they really have to be the same event, but there's no reason why they shouldn't.

The Mirror of Twilight was already being guarded by the Sages and the Twili already seemed to have a society by the time of Ganondorf's execution. There appears to be a good deal of time between the initial sealing and the OoT era.

Also, for the Onmyoji thing, none of that was even said in the Japanese version of TP. It was something in Japanese culture that players were presumably expected to know beforehand.

[SOAP]

Raien, on Apr 26 2009, 09:17 PM, said:

FDL, on Apr 26 2009, 09:07 PM, said:

I see what you mean with the Wind Waker stuff, but I think even the Japanese version of TP seems to make reference to the times of conflict mentioned in ALttP and OoT with the lines you're talking about. And we know those lines weren't talking about the IW because Ganondorf came by much later on. (I'm assuming you're referring to the stuff said by Lanayru and that old woman in the market. Correct me if I'm mistaken.)

TP's war for Hyrule, in which the Twili's ancestors were sealed, fits pretty strongly with the war over Hyrule in OoT's back story. Both games make it clear in the text that the fighting was for conquest over the kingdom of Hyrule. I don't know if they really have to be the same event, but there's no reason why they shouldn't.

The fighting in ALttP's back story, on the other hand, was not defined as a war for the conquest of the kingdom. It was defined as more general fighting to find the location of the Sacred Realm. It's clearly not the same context, and I don't associate them at all.

I thought the whole reason the Twili were sealed was because they tried to obtain the Triforce? It's hard to say though because for some dumb reason they were intentionally vague about anything relating the Triforce, even when they go and show it it to you in your face. Oh well.

It's my personal theory anyways taht the Twilight Realm is in fact a corrupted Sacred Realm much like Drak World/Realm. Whether it holds true or not, for me, depends on whether Ganon was sealed first or the Twili. If Ganon was sealed before the Twili, then he alraedy currupted the Sacred Realm, which at that point was just a last ditch effort of the Sages to remove Ganondorf from the picture. He alraedy had the Triforce of Power at that point so it was better to seal him up in another dimension, even if at the time itr was one of the holiest of dimension. After which, due to Ganon's corruption the Twilight Realm just gets used as prison for the Sages to send off undesirables. However, the game strongly suggests it's other way around, which doesn't work because you'd have the Twili coexisting in the Twilight/Sacred Realm alongside the Triforce prior to OoT. That would hard to expalin other than the Triforce being useless within a sealed Sacred Realm. Come to think of it though, it could still work that way.

I know there are some who would disagree, for many valid reasons but taht's just how it makes sense in my mind. The Twilight Realm just reminds me too much of art work for the Sacred Realm that I just can't ignore it even if nothing else suggest it other than the Twilight Realm being another shadowy dimension connected to Hyrule. And maybe that's all it is. But it would be an ironic twist if the Sacred Realm didn't exist until AFTER the Light Spirits sealed up the portion of Hyrule the Twili conquered. It would like the Gods saying, "Okay you want land and it's TRiforce so much, okay you get to stay in it for the rest of your life, and your children's lives, and your children's children, till the end of time." Perhaps the prolonged wars prior to OoT and TP were finally resolved by the Gods dividing off a part of of Hyrule into it's own pocket reality. Thus the Sacred Realm was born, in which generations later Ganondorf sought to entyer it to obtain the Triforce, and then later became known as the Twilight Realm after all the innates from Arbiter's Grounds sent there corrupted it, and finally Dark World/Realm when Ganondorf finally obtains all three pieces of the Triforce and his wish creates a mirror image of Hyrule.

Just throwing crazy ideas out there. Don't take me too seriously.

This post has been edited by SOAP: 26 April 2009 - 04:45 PM

[Raien]

Average Gamer, on Apr 26 2009, 10:28 PM, said:

The Mirror of Twilight was already being guarded by the Sages and the Twili already seemed to have a society by the time of Ganondorf's execution. There appears to be a good deal of time between the initial sealing and the OoT era.

That's a good point, actually. Okay, so I think we can safely say they're not the same war.

SOAP said:

I thought the whole reason the Twili were sealed was because they tried to obtain the Triforce? It's hard to say though because for some dumb reason they were intentionally vague about anything relating the Triforce, even when they go and show it it to you in your face. Oh well.

I can see why you would think that. During Lanayru's speech about the Dark Tribe's sealing, there is an image of Link running towards the Triforce, which does instinctively imply that the Triforce was his goal. But here's the thing; nothing depicted during Lanayru's speech was literal; everything was symbolic.

When Lanayru referred to the goddesses, we saw three balls of coloured light.
When Lanayru referred to the world, we saw a hilltop.
When Lanayru referred to the people, we saw them represented as Link and Ilia.
When Lanayru referred to the people's greed, we saw Link and Ilia's eyes go white to show blindness.
When Lanayru referred to the kingdom of Hyrule, the Triforce appeared.
When Lanayru referred to the Dark Tribe, we saw them as Shadow Links.

I believe that in this context, the Triforce is just Hyrule's symbol. Lanayru merely refers to a war for conquest over Hyrule.

This post has been edited by Raien: 26 April 2009 - 04:58 PM

[Finbarr]

SOAP, on Apr 26 2009, 10:42 PM, said:

It's my personal theory anyways taht the Twilight Realm is in fact a corrupted Sacred Realm much like Drak World/Realm. Whether it holds true or not, for me, depends on whether Ganon was sealed first or the Twili. If Ganon was sealed before the Twili, then he alraedy currupted the Sacred Realm, which at that point was just a last ditch effort of the Sages to remove Ganondorf from the picture. He alraedy had the Triforce of Power at that point so it was better to seal him up in another dimension, even if at the time itr was one of the holiest of dimension. After which, due to Ganon's corruption the Twilight Realm just gets used as prison for the Sages to send off undesirables. However, the game strongly suggests it's other way around, which doesn't work because you'd have the Twili coexisting in the Twilight/Sacred Realm alongside the Triforce prior to OoT. That would hard to expalin other than the Triforce being useless within a sealed Sacred Realm. Come to think of it though, it could still work that way.

I know there are some who would disagree, for many valid reasons but taht's just how it makes sense in my mind. The Twilight Realm just reminds me too much of art work for the Sacred Realm that I just can't ignore it even if nothing else suggest it other than the Twilight Realm being another shadowy dimension connected to Hyrule. And maybe that's all it is. But it would be an ironic twist if the Sacred Realm didn't exist until AFTER the Light Spirits sealed up the portion of Hyrule the Twili conquered. It would like the Gods saying, "Okay you want land and it's TRiforce so much, okay you get to stay in it for the rest of your life, and your children's lives, and your children's children, till the end of time." Perhaps the prolonged wars prior to OoT and TP were finally resolved by the Gods dividing off a part of of Hyrule into it's own pocket reality. Thus the Sacred Realm was born, in which generations later Ganondorf sought to entyer it to obtain the Triforce, and then later became known as the Twilight Realm after all the innates from Arbiter's Grounds sent there corrupted it, and finally Dark World/Realm when Ganondorf finally obtains all three pieces of the Triforce and his wish creates a mirror image of Hyrule.

Just throwing crazy ideas out there. Don't take me too seriously.

Actually, I used to have a crazy theory similar to that. The Twilight Realm wasn't involved, but I had this idea that the Sacred Realm was originally a physical part of the land of Hyrule, but the goddesses broke it off after the Twili were banished to the Twilight Realm.

SOAP, on Apr 26 2009, 10:42 PM, said:

It would like the Gods saying, "Okay you want land and it's TRiforce so much, okay you get to stay in it for the rest of your life, and your children's lives, and your children's children..."

For three months!

[SOAP]

Raien, on Apr 26 2009, 09:54 PM, said:

Average Gamer, on Apr 26 2009, 10:28 PM, said:

The Mirror of Twilight was already being guarded by the Sages and the Twili already seemed to have a society by the time of Ganondorf's execution. There appears to be a good deal of time between the initial sealing and the OoT era.

That's a good point, actually. Okay, so I think we can safely say they're not the same war.

SOAP said:

I thought the whole reason the Twili were sealed was because they tried to obtain the Triforce? It's hard to say though because for some dumb reason they were intentionally vague about anything relating the Triforce, even when they go and show it it to you in your face. Oh well.

I can see why you would think that. During Lanayru's speech about the Dark Tribe's sealing, there is an image of Link running towards the Triforce, which does instinctively imply that the Triforce was his goal. But here's the thing; nothing depicted during Lanayru's speech was literal; everything was symbolic.

When Lanayru referred to the goddesses, we saw three balls of coloured light.
When Lanayru referred to the world, we saw a hilltop.
When Lanayru referred to the people, we saw them represented as Link and Ilia.
When Lanayru referred to the people's greed, we saw Link and Ilia's eyes go white to show blindness.
When Lanayru referred to the kingdom of Hyrule, the Triforce appeared.
When Lanayru referred to the Dark Tribe, we saw them as Shadow Links.

I believe that in this context, the Triforce is just Hyrule's symbol. Lanayru merely refers to a war for conquest over Hyrule.

Thanks for clearly that up. Lanayru's visions were a total mindfuck.

Editr: Also it can still be the same war. In TP it mentions them being prolonged wars in which the Sheikah dwindled in number. Prolonge implies that they lasted a very long time. In OoT they never say how long the wars lasted, other than it ended around the time Link was an infant. The war could have continued after the Twili were banished if they weren't the only aggressors. In fact, the Twilight Realm could have continued to been used all throughout the war to cast away the Hylians' POW's. Something like the Hyrulean version of Guantanamo Bay.

I'm starting to think Ganondorf was the last prisoner they ever sent through the mirror....

This post has been edited by SOAP: 26 April 2009 - 05:33 PM

[Raien]

SOAP, on Apr 26 2009, 11:24 PM, said:

Thanks for clearly that up. Lanayru's visions were a total mindfuck.

You're right at that. I remember that before the game was released, websites were posting that scene exclusively just to generate a WTF? reaction from viewers.

[Average Gamer]

SOAP, on Apr 26 2009, 03:24 PM, said:

Edit: Also it can still be the same war. In TP it mentions them being prolonged wars in which the Sheikah dwindled in number. Prolonge implies that they lasted a very long time. In OoT they never say how long the wars lasted, other than it ended around the time Link was an infant. The war could have continued after the Twili were banished if they weren't the only aggressors.

I really doubt that any of the races would be interested in continuing the struggle for the Triforce at that time after seeing spirits sent by the Goddesses themselves smite and seal away an entire tribe of people. The "Prolonged Wars" may have just been struggles over land within Hyrule or based on personal issues between the races, not necessarily another struggle for the Triforce.

SOAP said:

In fact, the Twilight Realm could have continued to been used all throughout the war to cast away the Hylians' POW's.

It would seem that only the ancestors of the Twili (the makers of the Fused Shadows) were sealed away by the Mirror.

[Raien]

Considering that "Prolonged Wars" is plural, it indicates that there were many different wars over Hyrule. Obviously these wars ended when the King of Hyrule united the nation in the ten years before OoT. The Sheikah could have dwindled out in any one of these wars.

[Duke Serkol]

Raien, on Apr 26 2009, 05:08 PM, said:

Duke Serkol, why did you cut out the part of my post that directly addressed the point you just raised?

Because no matter what we say, in the end...

Raien, on Apr 26 2009, 05:08 PM, said:

And Nintendo cannot make the Sacred Realm an interchangeable definition for both the kingdom and the pocket dimension, for the same reason that they cannot make the Light World interchangeable with the Twilight Realm; it's a mindfuck for anyone reading the story.

...they can, because they are Nintendo. They make the games, so if they want to make them confusing, assbackwards or royal mindfukky, they will, and nothing we can do will change this.
Your chuffing train avatar is proof enough of this

Raien, on Apr 26 2009, 05:08 PM, said:

Nintendo knows this, they know the Sacred Realm has always been recognised as a specific location within Hyrule.

Except when it was a parallel dimension that reflects the heart of he who enters it and got turned into a Dark World you could travel in and out of, in order to spot the differences and make changes in it that influence the other dimension, namely Hyrule?
Sorry but how can that possibly not count as the most recognizable characterization associated to the name?

Fintin O, on Apr 26 2009, 11:58 PM, said:

Actually, I used to have a crazy theory similar to that. The Twilight Realm wasn't involved, but I had this idea that the Sacred Realm was originally a physical part of the land of Hyrule, but the goddesses broke it off after the Twili were banished to the Twilight Realm.

That isn't really crazy since several of us (me and Arturo included, if I'm not mistaken) believe that this is in fact the case. It probably happened when the Temple of Time was built and the Master Sword forged.

This post has been edited by Duke Serkol: 26 April 2009 - 06:35 PM

[Raien]

Duke Serkol, on Apr 27 2009, 12:32 AM, said:

...they can, because they are Nintendo. They make the games, so if they want to make them confusing, assbackwards or royal mindfukky, they will, and nothing we can do will change this.

No, you miss my point. All professional writers follow narrative conventions that need to be met in order to create an accessible story. That's why writers never use interchangeable names unless they refer to the same individual/object. This is stuff that should be taken for granted, and I don't know what it is about timeline theorists that they think these narrative conventions magically don't apply to the Zelda writers.

But if you wish to argue this point, I'll just do what I usually do in this situation and ask for examples from any story you can think of, regardless of whether it's video games or movies or other literature. Name one example of an interchangeable name that is used to refer to two different things, and yet is not addressed within the story in question. Good luck.

Raien, on Apr 26 2009, 05:08 PM, said:

Except when it was a parallel dimension that reflects the heart of he who enters it and got turned into a Dark World you could travel in and out of, in order to spot the differences and make changes in it that influence the other dimension, namely Hyrule?
Sorry but how can that possibly not count as the most recognizable characterization associated to the name?

Because you're referring to player associations, and the writers aren't the players. The Zelda mythology, that which the writers wrote, says that the Sacred Realm is a location within the land of Hyrule, and yet a place that reflects the land of Hyrule. It's never the kingdom of Hyrule itself.

This post has been edited by Raien: 26 April 2009 - 07:35 PM

[FDL]

Raien, on Apr 26 2009, 04:17 PM, said:

FDL, on Apr 26 2009, 09:07 PM, said:

I see what you mean with the Wind Waker stuff, but I think even the Japanese version of TP seems to make reference to the times of conflict mentioned in ALttP and OoT with the lines you're talking about. And we know those lines weren't talking about the IW because Ganondorf came by much later on. (I'm assuming you're referring to the stuff said by Lanayru and that old woman in the market. Correct me if I'm mistaken.)

TP's war for Hyrule, in which the Twili's ancestors were sealed, fits pretty strongly with the war over Hyrule in OoT's back story. Both games make it clear in the text that the fighting was for conquest over the kingdom of Hyrule. I don't know if they really have to be the same event, but there's no reason why they shouldn't.

The fighting in ALttP's back story, on the other hand, was not defined as a war for the conquest of the kingdom. It was defined as more general fighting to find the location of the Sacred Realm. It's clearly not the same context, and I don't associate them at all.

I would say the fact that they're called "Prolonged Wars", as well as the fact that Hyrule was pretty much supposed to be in turmoil for a lot of the time before Link's birth, implies that all of these backstory conflicts could very well be the same things.


On another note, I'm iffy about the Sacred Realm really not being mentioned. You say it used a different definition than that of the true SR, but didn't it specifically say "The holy land/Sacred Realm is the place where the gods first descended" in TP, which is directly in keeping with it's "sister" games?

[SOAP]

Raien, on Apr 27 2009, 12:26 AM, said:

Duke Serkol, on Apr 27 2009, 12:32 AM, said:

...they can, because they are Nintendo. They make the games, so if they want to make them confusing, assbackwards or royal mindfukky, they will, and nothing we can do will change this.

No, you miss my point. All professional writers follow narrative conventions that need to be met in order to create an accessible story. That's why writers never use interchangeable names unless they refer to the same individual/object. This is stuff that should be taken for granted, and I don't know what it is about timeline theorists that they think these narrative conventions magically don't apply to the Zelda writers.

But if you wish to argue this point, I'll just do what I usually do in this situation and ask for examples from any story you can think of, regardless of whether it's video games or movies or other literature. Name one example of an interchangeable name that is used to refer to two different things, and yet is not addressed within the story in question. Good luck.

AHEM!


That wasn't too hard.

[Raien]

SOAP, on Apr 27 2009, 02:35 AM, said:

That wasn't too hard.

Being intentionally used as a joke counts as recognising it. Sorry, better luck next time.

This post has been edited by Raien: 26 April 2009 - 08:39 PM

[SOAP]

Raien, on Apr 27 2009, 01:39 AM, said:

SOAP, on Apr 27 2009, 02:35 AM, said:

That wasn't too hard.

Being intentionally used as a joke counts as recognising it. Sorry, better luck next time.

Yes I meant it as a joke too. You're lucky I didn't link to TVTropes otherwise none of us would get anywhere.

[Raien]

I missed this post!

FDL, on Apr 27 2009, 02:31 AM, said:

I would say the fact that they're called "Prolonged Wars", as well as the fact that Hyrule was pretty much supposed to be in turmoil for a lot of the time before Link's birth, implies that all of these backstory conflicts could very well be the same things.

I still think it excludes ALttP's conflict, because it takes place in a different context. Wasn't the kingdom at that time otherwise described as peaceful?

Quote

On another note, I'm iffy about the Sacred Realm really not being mentioned. You say it used a different definition than that of the true SR, but didn't it specifically say "The holy land/Sacred Realm is the place where the gods first descended" in TP, which is directly in keeping with it's "sister" games?

I don't remember it being said in the "sister" games that the Sacred Realm was the first place the gods descended to. I remember it was implied to be the place from which the gods departed the world for the heavens, because that's where the Triforce was left.

But regardless, where the gods first descended to doesn't change quotes like this:

Lanayru translation said:

But at length, a rivalry ensued over Hyrule, the holy land.

Seriously, how can anyone claim that this quote is not referring to the kingdom of Hyrule!? I mean, honestly!

This post has been edited by Raien: 26 April 2009 - 09:04 PM

[Duke Serkol]

Raien, on Apr 27 2009, 02:26 AM, said:

But if you wish to argue this point

No, no I don't. I generally dislike arguing. I'll just cut the chase and say I don't believe the writers at Nintendo are nearly as professional as you give them credit for.
...if they were, they wouldn't rip off nearly every previous game in the series with TP's plot, and Zelda wouldn't disappear into thin air only to show up again at the final battle for no given sensible reason. And really that's just the tip of a continent sized iceberg there

This post has been edited by Duke Serkol: 26 April 2009 - 09:20 PM

[FDL]

Raien, on Apr 26 2009, 09:58 PM, said:

I still think it excludes ALttP's conflict, because it takes place in a different context. Wasn't the kingdom at that time otherwise described as peaceful?

Was it? I don't remember.

Quote

I don't remember it being said in the "sister" games that the Sacred Realm was the first place the gods descended to. I remember it was implied to be the place from which the gods departed the world for the heavens, because that's where the Triforce was left.

Wow, I was way off then! I really thought I remembered it saying the opposite, that the SR was the first place the goddesses. Serves me right for trying to discuss this while I'm tired.

Quote

regardless, where the gods first descended to doesn't change quotes like this:

Lanayru translation said:

But at length, a rivalry ensued over Hyrule, the holy land.

Seriously, how can anyone claim that this quote is not referring to the kingdom of Hyrule!? I mean, honestly!

Well, with that other stuff cleared up I see where you're coming from better. And if I wasn't so tired, I'd contend DS is being really, really unfair to TP's story, but alas, I'm quite tired.

[Raien]

Duke Serkol, on Apr 27 2009, 03:14 AM, said:

No, no I don't. I generally dislike arguing. I'll just cut the chase and say I don't believe the writers at Nintendo are nearly as professional as you give them credit for.
...if they were, they wouldn't rip off nearly every previous game in the series with TP's plot, and Zelda wouldn't disappear into thin air only to show up again at the final battle for no given sensible reason. And really that's just the tip of a continent sized iceberg there

Continuity errors and plot-stealing happen all the time in literature; there's a lot of stuff I'm sure you can name where both have happened. But this "interchangeable names" thing? It's much more fundamental to literature; it's a thing that even bad writers just do not do, hence the lack of examples. Your argument really holds no water here.

This post has been edited by Raien: 27 April 2009 - 07:38 AM

[Duke Serkol]

However, as I already mentioned, I'm not making arguments. That isn't something I enjoy. I only drop by to offer the occasional statement, and with that I am done

[MikePetersSucks]

Quote

That would hard to expalin other than the Triforce being useless within a sealed Sacred Realm. Come to think of it though, it could still work that way.

It's still perfectly usable in LTTP.

[Average Gamer]

Hey Jacen. Could you please translate this? It supposedly comes from page six of the Majora's Mask manual.

MM Manual said:

This is kind of a parallel world that is similar to and yet different from the land of Hyrule, which was the setting for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. Termina is a myterious place, and the people Link meets here may look vaguely familiar at first glance.
Clock Town rests at the heart of this world.

This post has been edited by Average Gamer: 30 April 2009 - 07:31 PM

[jacensolo06]

The English manual pretty much nailed it, but here it is anyways. (I was working from a pretty low-quality scan, so it might not be perfect.)

Quote

This is a type of Parallel World that resembles but is completely different from Hyrule, the setting of "Ocarina of Time". It is a mysterious world where even the people Link meets on his journey at first glance give you the feeling you have met them before.
With the clock tower as it's symbol, Clock Town is at the center of this land that spreads out in various directions. Amid rumors of the moon falling, Clock Town is celebrating it's once a year Carnival.

[Average Gamer]

Thanks Jacen.

Edit: Hey Jacen, could you please translate this?

Poe Salesman said:

Oh...you are quite an energetic
young man. You're brave and
handsome, too.
Heh heh heh...your name is
Link, isn't it.
Heh heh he...don't be surprised.
I can read people's minds.
If I looked as good as you, I
could run a different kind of
business...heh he heh...
My shop is the only Ghost Shop
in Hyrule.
Because of the great Ganondorf,
it is a fine time for a business
like this...heh heh heh...
Oh...I can only hope the world
gets even worse!
The ghosts, called Poes, are
spirits of concentrated hatred
that appear in the fields and
graveyard. They hate the world!
Young man, if you catch a Poe, I
will pay a lot of money for it...
Heh heh hee!

People have been wondering about the nature of Poes, so it might help if we look at the original text.

This post has been edited by Average Gamer: 02 May 2009 - 09:20 PM

[Impossible]

This is probably too much for one person to translate, and I'm not pushing jacen or anyone else to do it in a hurry, but I just want to make a list of the untranslated interviews I know about:

Ocarina of Time:
Ki no ue no Himitsu kichi - In progress by GlitterBerri

Majora's Mask:
Ki no ue no Himitsu kichi

Oracle of Seasons/Ages:
Ki no ue no Himitsu kichi (partially translated here)
Nintendo Online Magazine

The Wind Waker:
Ki no ue no Himitsu kichi
Nintendo Online Magazine
Zelda Box staff interviews

If anyone knows of any more things to be translated, let me know and I'll add them to the list.

I'm kind of frustrated by the TWW interviews, because as far as I know, they don't have much story information, while the OoT interview at least had one thing. People involved with the story are part of the interviews, but they just never seem to talk about the right thing. God, if the developers would just TALK about some of this stuff it would be so much better. TP got that Aonuma interview, but what about some of the older games? Could have saved us years of the stupidity of the single vs split debate, too... In any case, the TWW and OoX interviews from 1101.com are probably the highest priority. I would love to get some insight into the intent and ideas behind TWW's story, so that we could have something there in undeniable writing, rather than just the blatantly obvious in-game themes... Because blatantly obvious isn't good enough for some theorists.

Technically, we did get something from Zelda Box already, which was proof of the split timeline. But again, people played retarded semantics games with it, despite the fact that ENGLISH SEMANTICS DON'T WORK ON JAPANESE. Something that has to be stated a million times even now, due to people who are STILL trying to apply them in that way. Lex has been doing some fucking horrible things with that lately, and he still defends the way he did it with the "flows of time" line.

This post has been edited by Impossible: 12 May 2009 - 05:24 AM