[Raien]

Thanks, Impossible.

[Impossible]

I think it still has to be inferred that he's talking about Hylian. Particularly since this was removed from the game in an incomplete state anyway. The hints at the game's intended content are obviously relevant despite that, though.

I found two more lines missing from the translations, in addition to the part I posted before from Link's grandma. I actually know exactly why you missed these two - they are located in a different part of the text dump to the rest of those scenes. Both are kind of similar "revelatory" lines, too.

King Hyrule said:

This is Hyrule...

King Hyrule said:

You are Princess Zelda.

Also, for completion's sake, since the preceding part and the next scene are already done, the end of the scene before leaving Hyrule:

King of Red Lions said:

But...each temple should have another
entrance high upon Hyrule's mountaintops,
which are now islands above the sea.

As always, I shall mark these places
on your Sea Chart.

Now then... If we stay here much longer,
we shall draw our enemy's attention to
Princess Zelda's whereabouts. We must
return to the surface immediately!

As a side note, I also have this post URL saved under the heading "Lex is wrong". It doesn't have a translation in it, so I HAVE NO IDEA WHY. Actually, I saw another post of Lex also being wrong about TWW yesterday, but I've forgotten which quote that was now...

This post has been edited by Impossible: 06 February 2009 - 08:47 PM

[jacensolo06]

Here's those miscellaneous lines:

King Hyrule said:

ハイラルなのだ!
This is Hyrule!
This is Hyrule...

King Hyrule said:

ゼルダ姫なのだよ
You are Princess Zelda.
You are Princess Zelda.

King of Red Lions said:

だが神殿への入り口は　高い山の上 海の上では島となっている場所に もう一つあるのだ
But there is another entrance to each temple on top of a high mountain that reaches above the sea to become an island.
But...each temple should have another entrance high upon Hyrule's mountaintops, which are now islands above the sea.

それぞれの場所は、いつものように お前の持つ海図に記しておいた
As usual, I have noted each of these places on your Sea Chart.
As always, I shall mark these places on your Sea Chart.

さあ、いつまでも此処にいると ゼルダの存在が敵に知られてしまう すぐに、海上に戻るぞ!
Now, if we stay here Zelda's existence will be known to our enemies. Let us go back above the ocean!
Now then... If we stay here much longer, we shall draw our enemy's attention to Princess Zelda's whereabouts. We must return to the surface immediately!

Link said:

でも今は　そんな時代じゃ ないからねえ・・・ だいいち、この島で剣術なんてしているのは 家の前に住む　赤シャチのジイ様ぐらいしか いないだろ?
But this isn't that era... First of all, isn't Old Man Akashachi who lives out front the only one on the island who knows any swordplay?
But we don't live in such an age any longer... Our ways are the ways of peace. Nowadays, I suppose Orca is the only one on the island who still knows anything about swordplay.

Note: Akashachi means "Red Orca".

[FDL]

Nice Job, Impossible. But...

Impossible, on Jan 31 2009, 10:36 PM, said:

What you do to OoT's ending, and consequently to TP's backstory, is just about the furthest thing away from logical reasoning, as basically none of the actions of any characters make any sense. There's nothing illogical or unreasonable about other interpretations of the OoT ending, you just refuse to give them a chance because you're attached to the same ideas you had three years ago.

Explain this. Lex is not the only person who believes Ganondorf obtained the Triforce before the execution scene, so I want to hear your reasoning as to how "none of it makes sense".

[Impossible]

Lex isn't the only person who believes that TWW allows for future games in Hyrule, either, so having company doesn't really add credibility. (Same deal with believing cameos in TMC are evidence, even though the game's director said that they have nothing to do with the story - and even though mere observation makes it blatantly obvious that they have nothing to do with the story. People who use evidence that is unrelated to plot and intent entirely don't get any sympathy from me.) Arguing that Ganondorf had the ToP before the execution, despite what logic suggests, is one thing. Arguing that he still touched the Triforce exactly as he did on the Adult Timeline is insane.

Thanks a lot for those last translations. I'll add them in and have the complete file up as soon as I can.

[Duke Serkol]

Impossible, on Feb 7 2009, 08:59 AM, said:

that he still touched the Triforce exactly as he did on the Adult Timeline is insane.

jacensolo06, on Feb 7 2009, 04:06 AM, said:

King Hyrule said:

ハイラルなのだ!
This is Hyrule!

[FDL]

Impossible, on Feb 7 2009, 04:59 AM, said:

Lex isn't the only person who believes that TWW allows for future games in Hyrule, either, so having company doesn't really add credibility. (Same deal with believing cameos in TMC are evidence, even though the game's director said that they have nothing to do with the story - and even though mere observation makes it blatantly obvious that they have nothing to do with the story. People who use evidence that is unrelated to plot and intent entirely don't get any sympathy from me.)

Oh, but shouting about and insulting your opponents does add credibility?

Quote

Arguing that Ganondorf had the ToP before the execution, despite what logic suggests, is one thing. Arguing that he still touched the Triforce exactly as he did on the Adult Timeline is insane.

Wrong on both counts. Logic suggests anything but Ganondorf obtaining the Triforce then(see, I can unjustly insult the intelligence of my opponents as well). And you're doubly wrong in your second sentence. I don't care if you believe he obtained it then, but the fact that you treat other theories as impossible is ridiculous. This is not an argument of what's correct and what isn't, I'm simply tired of reading you say that the people who disagree with you are "illogical and insane". There are plenty of logical people who believe that Ganondorf obtained the Triforce on his own.

This post has been edited by FDL: 07 February 2009 - 12:24 PM

[Impossible]

So I have to repeat my argument every five minutes rather than merely referring to it, in topics where it's completely off-topic and you should not even have brought it up again, otherwise I'm just dismissing other arguments? Uh huh. Even though I've actually made all my opinions on basically everything freely available for everyone to see already. I'm not treating other theories as impossible for no reason, I'm just applying some amount of rational thought to these events. Ganondorf obtaining the Triforce of Power exactly as in the Adult Timeline = Ganondorf conquering Hyrule exactly as in the Adult Timeline. The Master Sword was necessary to stop him.

And you're right, criticising people because none of the evidence they use has anything to do with the stories of the goddamn games is totally uncalled for. I personally think everyone should ignore all of the text in TWW except for one irrelevant line that is nullified by the ending (at least in the context of Hyrule), and ignore the actual story in TMC in order to focus on the significance of a meaningless cameo. Also, context? What's that?

This post has been edited by Impossible: 07 February 2009 - 02:36 PM

[FDL]

Impossible, on Feb 7 2009, 04:23 PM, said:

So I have to repeat my argument every five minutes rather than merely referring to it, in topics where it's completely off-topic and you should not even have brought it up again, otherwise I'm just dismissing other arguments? Uh huh. Even though I've actually made all my opinions on basically everything freely available for everyone to see already. I'm not treating other theories as impossible for no reason, I'm just applying some amount of rational thought to these events. Ganondorf obtaining the Triforce of Power exactly as in the Adult Timeline = Ganondorf conquering Hyrule exactly as in the Adult Timeline. The Master Sword was necessary to stop him.

It's perfectly rational to think that he could be temporarily stopped even with the Triforce of Power. You cannot presume to know what difference Link, the Sages, and the Twilight Mirror would make for Ganondorf's attempted conquest.

Quote

And you're right, criticising people because none of the evidence they use has anything to do with the stories of the goddamn games is totally uncalled for. I personally think everyone should ignore all of the text in TWW except for one irrelevant line that is nullified by the ending (at least in the context of Hyrule), and ignore the actual story in TMC in order to focus on the significance of a meaningless cameo. Also, context? What's that?

This makes it even worse, your criticisms are invalid and hypocritical. You may think Lex does this, perhaps even correctly, but I do not base it on lines from random other games. I am basing my beliefs on the same things you are, OoT and TP.

[Raien]

How many times do we have to debate this topic before someone realises we've debated it fifty times already because there's no evidence!?

Goddamn glitch in the Matrix...

[FDL]

That's precisely my point. Impossible says that it's "insane" to believe that Ganondorf got it the same way he did in the AT, and illogical to believe he got it before the execution at all. He cannot say that, because the situation in no way allows for anyone to declare they are correct. That's why I called him out on it. I don't care if you disagree with my beliefs because there is no way to determine who is truly correct on this matter, I have an issue with people saying what Impossible does/has. You and I have discussed this enough times to understand that there is no definitive set of events for TP's backstory, so I do not like seeing someone who's apparently respected around these parts declare it's "insane" for me to believe what I do.

This post has been edited by FDL: 07 February 2009 - 05:22 PM

[Impossible]

FDL, on Feb 8 2009, 07:39 AM, said:

It's perfectly rational to think that he could be temporarily stopped even with the Triforce of Power. You cannot presume to know what difference Link, the Sages, and the Twilight Mirror would make for Ganondorf's attempted conquest.

No, see, here's my problem with the whole debate. People who suggest that this makes any sense are missing the fact that THERE IS A PRECEDENT FOR THIS. There are many, many games filled with precedent. The most obvious one being OoT. The sages are simply incapable of subduing Ganondorf. That's not within their power. They aren't warriors. They could only SEAL Ganon, not hurt him, and they could only do it after he had been badly beaten. Link, on the other hand, would get the shit beaten through him without the Master Sword. The Mirror of Twilight has nothing to do with it. They had to capture Ganondorf, AND CONTAIN HIM, probably for days at least. They also had to kill him, and believe that they could kill him (I'll get to that in a moment). The difference between our arguments is that you're saying "you don't know anything, it could have been possible!" while I'm using precedent from every other game to point out that this hypothetical makes no sense, as the evidence suggests it is not possible and the explanations of any scenario where it is easily fall apart for the reasons I've stated. There's just no rational way to say that it happened, which makes it far from the best possibility. It also makes no sense in light of what Aonuma said. He summed up the important events that happened after OoT's child ending.

Eiji Aonuma said:

It was decided that Ganon be executed because he'd do something outrageous if they left him be.

It would be a joke to use that to describe Ganondorf trying to conquer Hyrule with the ToP, the way he did on the adult timeline. They figured that, despite closing the Door of Time and preventing his initial plan to get the Triforce, he was too dangerous and needed to be executed. If he had the ToP, then he already would have been doing outrageous things. If any of this had really been relevant, Aonuma would have mentioned it..

The reason why I also call it insane is because I'm against any theory that requires illogical actions on the part of the characters:

- The sages know the power of the Triforce. They would know that Ganondorf has it. It is clear from TP's scene that they did NOT know that Ganondorf had the ToP until the execution. They were completely shocked. They had Ganondorf contained by completely non-magical constraints that they knew could not hold the Triforce's power. If Ganondorf had the ToP the entire time, and was able to use it (which he certainly was if he touched it), they should have known that he had it. They wouldn't be this stupid.

- Ganondorf, who had the power to blast his way free at any time, waited until he was in front of a portal to another world and had a sword in his chest about to kill him to escape. (As well as the sages knowing he had that power.) Yeah, really believable. If he had been able to escape, he wouldn't have been so stupid. He could have killed all of the sages at any time.

- Future Zelda, using her powers, sent Link back to regain his lost childhood in peace. She would not have taken any chances. The goal was to prevent Ganondorf from ever entering the SR, because that was the mistake they made that led to OoT's events. "Close the Door of Time" and all that. She had the power to send him back to a specific point, so she sent him to right before drawing the Master Sword and ever letting any of it happen. Otherwise, it just makes no sense. Why would she take the risk of all of the same things happening again? She didn't give Link any specific instructions to stop it. It's idiotic to deliberately give Ganondorf the ToP, when you would obviously stop it from ever happening, that being the point of the ending.

Quote

This makes it even worse, your criticisms are invalid and hypocritical. You may think Lex does this, perhaps even correctly, but I do not base it on lines from random other games. I am basing my beliefs on the same things you are, OoT and TP.

I never criticised you, except that your reasoning in the first post was "it's not stupid because other people believe it". I pointed out what was wrong with that.

This post has been edited by Impossible: 07 February 2009 - 07:13 PM

[FDL]

Impossible, on Feb 7 2009, 08:09 PM, said:

No, see, here's my problem with the whole debate. People who suggest that this makes any sense are missing the fact that THERE IS A PRECEDENT FOR THIS. There are many, many games filled with precedent. The most obvious one being OoT. The sages are simply incapable of subduing Ganondorf. That's not within their power. They aren't warriors. They could only SEAL Ganon, not hurt him, and they could only do it after he had been badly beaten. Link, on the other hand, would get the shit beaten through him without the Master Sword. The Mirror of Twilight has nothing to do with it. They had to capture Ganondorf, AND CONTAIN HIM, probably for days at least. They also had to kill him, and believe that they could kill him (I'll get to that in a moment). The difference between our arguments is that you're saying "you don't know anything, it could have been possible!" while I'm using precedent from every other game to point out that this hypothetical makes no sense, as the evidence suggests it is not possible and the explanations of any scenario where it is easily fall apart for the reasons I've stated. There's just no rational way to say that it happened, which makes it far from the best possibility. It also makes no sense in light of what Aonuma said. He summed up the important events that happened after OoT's child ending.

Eiji Aonuma said:

It was decided that Ganon be executed because he'd do something outrageous if they left him be.

It would be a joke to use that to describe Ganondorf trying to conquer Hyrule with the ToP, the way he did on the adult timeline. They figured that, despite closing the Door of Time and preventing his initial plan to get the Triforce, he was too dangerous and needed to be executed. If he had the ToP, then he already would have been doing outrageous things. If any of this had really been relevant, Aonuma would have mentioned it..

No, Ganondorf's power with the Triforce is not as clear as you're saying. What makes you say that? I feel like I should probably not respond to this part until I know specifically what your problems with the idea are. But one problem I have with the literal interpretation is exactly what your problem is: precedence. The Gods, who have always had it against evildoers, GIVING Ganondorf the Triforce at a strange, somewhat random time? I don't understand the rationale behind it.

Quote

The reason why I also call it insane is because I'm against any theory that requires illogical actions on the part of the characters:

- The sages know the power of the Triforce. They would know that Ganondorf has it. It is clear from TP's scene that they did NOT know that Ganondorf had the ToP until the execution. They were completely shocked. They had Ganondorf contained by completely non-magical constraints that they knew could not hold the Triforce's power. If Ganondorf had the ToP the entire time, and was able to use it (which he certainly was if he touched it), they should have known that he had it. They wouldn't be this stupid.

It's actually implied in TP itself that this is how it happened. The sages themselves declare that the reason the events escalated in such a way and caused ruin for the Twili was because they overestimated their own abilities. If Ganondorf was saved by Deus Ex Machina at the very last second, this would not be an overestimation. Furthermore, Ganondorf's own reaction does not imply he was surprised at all. And as Fyxe, HoL, and I have discussed in the past, the parallels between Ganondorf's execution and his near-death at the hands of Link. Right down to the new boost of strength which comes to him as the darkness closes in on him.

Quote

- Ganondorf, who had the power to blast his way free at any time, waited until he was in front of a portal to another world and had a sword in his chest about to kill him to escape. (As well as the sages knowing he had that power.) Yeah, really believable. If he had been able to escape, he wouldn't have been so stupid. He could have killed all of the sages at any time.

Or perhaps he couldn't escape. There is precedence for the Triforce awakening and giving it's bearer access to power they did not have until they were put in danger, which is why I don't think it's a given that Ganondorf could've broken free at any time.

Quote

- Future Zelda, using her powers, sent Link back to regain his lost childhood in peace. She would not have taken any chances. The goal was to prevent Ganondorf from ever entering the SR, because that was the mistake they made that led to OoT's events. "Close the Door of Time" and all that. She had the power to send him back to a specific point, so she sent him to right before drawing the Master Sword and ever letting any of it happen. Otherwise, it just makes no sense. Why would she take the risk of all of the same things happening again? She didn't give Link any specific instructions to stop it. It's idiotic to deliberately give Ganondorf the ToP, when you would obviously stop it from ever happening, that being the point of the ending.

The point was for Link to regain his lost seven years, and I don't see how we can know for sure that Zelda has that kind of power. It doesn't seem like she'd even need to wait for Link to beat Ganondorf with that kind of power.

Quote

I never criticised you, except that your reasoning in the first post was "it's not stupid because other people believe it". I pointed out what was wrong with that.

Simply saying what you've said about people who believe Ganondorf obtained the ToP from the SR in the CT feels like criticism to me. Perhaps I've jumped the gun, though, and I apologize if that's the case.

And that was also the reason that I mentioned that Lex isn't the only one. Even if you have a problem with Lex specifically, bear in mind you're insulting others as well on occasion.

This post has been edited by FDL: 07 February 2009 - 07:41 PM

[Raien]

FDL, on Feb 8 2009, 12:39 AM, said:

The Gods, who have always had it against evildoers, GIVING Ganondorf the Triforce at a strange, somewhat random time? I don't understand the rationale behind it.

I can answer that one quickly.

Prosperity is a balance between Order and Chaos; too much of one or the other brings about a decline. With Ganondorf defeated in the CT, Hyrule was declining, as made clear in discussion about the lack of courageous role models and lazy guards. The goddesses allowed Ganondorf to attack in order to give the people some inspiration to be courageous and prosper again.

To quote Monty Python & the Holy Grail:

Quote

God: Arthur, you and your knights shall be given a task to make you an example of in these dark times...

Arthur: Good idea, oh Lord!

God: Of course, it's a good idea!

This post has been edited by Raien: 07 February 2009 - 08:20 PM

[Showsni]

Keep arguments out of the translation thread, please. If you want to debate something, start a new thread.

[FDL]

Eh, we don't need a new topic, I wasn't planning on getting into a huge debate over this anyway. This can be the end of it, if Impossible's okay with that(or we can do it via PM's).

This post has been edited by FDL: 07 February 2009 - 08:46 PM

[Raien]

If you don't get this debate over with now, it will come back again in a few weeks/months time. Guaranteed.

[FDL]

I doubt it, I've argued it backwards and forwards, and I have my doubts we'll come upon something new.

[Impossible]

Okay, I wanted to add a table of contents, but it appears that Excel doesn't allow for that... I haven't done the headings particularly well, so I'll list the sections you should be looking for here:

The Legendary Hero
Outset Island
The Pirate Ship
Forsaken Fortress
Windfall Island
Dragon Roost Island
Dragon Roost Cavern
Forest Haven
After Forbidden Woods
Finding Jabun
Tower of the Gods
Hyrule and Forsaken Fortress
Earth Temple
Wind Temple
Ganon's Tower
The Final Battle
Ending

The comments key/credits can now be found on the right side at the beginning.

I'm now using ShareBee, so we shouldn't have any problems like what's happened to my timeline document. I'll look into proper hosting once the Japanese column is complete, which jacensolo06 will hopefully be doing. As a side note, if you have any other comments on your translations, feel free to add them in brown in the comments column.

http://sharebee.com/23247991

This post has been edited by Impossible: 08 February 2009 - 12:57 AM

[jacensolo06]

It seems the file is corrupted or something. Excel doesn't recognize the file format.

[Impossible]

That doesn't make much sense, the only compatibility issues that occur, according to Excel, should be with the Japanese characters. I specifically saved it in that format to make sure. Has anyone else gotten it to work? It could be the download site you used, so try another one... I'll just upload it again to be sure, too.

http://sharebee.com/c94f2606

[jacensolo06]

I agree that it doesn't make sense. None of the sharebee links gave me a working file. The initial file you had on the previous page worked (and still works) fine though.

Can someone else see if it works?

[Impossible]

Looks like the problem isn't just you, as I can't get it to work on the PC I'm using right now. It was made with Excel 2008 on a Mac, but I've never had compatibility problems like this before using the old xls file format. I'll see what I can do later, but this is bizarre when the old one worked...

This post has been edited by Impossible: 08 February 2009 - 09:22 PM

[Impossible]

Can you tell me what version of Excel you're using? I don't know why this applies to xls and not just xlsx files, but it might help to install the updates for Office that add compatibility with Office 2007/2008 formats. This page should explain how to do it. Or maybe this will help. I don't know, fucking Microsoft. I've uploaded the xlsx version here just to see how that one works:

http://sharebee.com/e3ad956d

The thing is, it should have nothing to do with Excel's Japanese compatibility, otherwise only those characters would display incorrectly. And if the previous version worked fine, this is just weird as hell.

I thought I would also try to copy and paste it into a new file, but Excel is really dickish on the whole subject of pasting with line breaks.

[jacensolo06]

The xlsx one works with that Office update, but the xls still doesn't. I have no I idea why. I resaved the xlsx one as xls and everthing works fine.

[Impossible]

Well, that helps. When you've added the Japanese in, upload both the xls and the xlsx, particularly as I want to see if the xls you've made will continue to work if I edit it.

Edit: Actually, I'm making some changes to the file now - worked out how to add contents, and I'm trying to make it look better as well. So don't worry about that, I'll have to just paste in the Japanese column from your version. We can test out compatibility later.

TP is going to be hell. >_< That one might be justified doing across different tabs, but I don't know what that will do to the HTML version.

This post has been edited by Impossible: 09 February 2009 - 08:29 PM

[jacensolo06]

Finished adding the Japanese column: http://www.mediafire.com/?zmikvzq2znz

[Impossible]

Thanks, that went in nicely. I replaced the "[player_name]" from the text dump with リンク. That should work fine, shouldn't it? I'll upload the new version pretty soon.

The only thing I really have to say now to FDL's last post is that it deals mostly with a strawman that is not relevant to what I'm actually saying. You can get some idea of my theory from the last discussion we had about this, which I believe was in the "current stance on the timeline" topic. The version you're saying requires sheer idiocy from many of the characters, characters who KNOW what the power of the Triforce is - and, had Ganondorf touched it, they would also know that he had it. I think you've interpreted what the sages have said rather narrowly. Meanwhile, I'm not claiming a literal interpretation of the divine prank, despite Lex's constant ignorant accusations (this is the guy who had never correctly interpreted a metaphor in the entire series). I'm saying that was their interpretation of an event that happened for different reasons, which are partly revealed by the removed ending text.

Quote

Or perhaps he couldn't escape. There is precedence for the Triforce awakening and giving it's bearer access to power they did not have until they were put in danger, which is why I don't think it's a given that Ganondorf could've broken free at any time.

See: Adult Timeline. That's the problem, and why I can claim a much better precedent. Ganondorf did NOT need to be in the situation that, for example, transformed him into his pig form in OoT, to conquer all of Hyrule. If Ganondorf touched the Triforce, he is capable of using the ToP's power just as he did in OoT.

This post has been edited by Impossible: 10 February 2009 - 03:06 AM

[Impossible]

Okay, here we go, this is the xlsx version:

http://sharebee.com/64a2e9c5

Someone else better upload an xls from that, since mine probably won't work. >_> I was going to change the version number just for clarity, but I figured nobody downloaded the last one anyway, so I can just make this the first official version.

I keep looking at TP and getting terrified by the whole idea. Maybe I should do FSA first? That seems more relaxing.

[FDL]

I don't think you and I have had a big argument about this ever, so forgive me if I don't know exactly what your beliefs are. But as I said, if you want to continue arguing about this feel free to PM me, I don't want to take up any more of this topic.