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#601 Raien

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 10:38 AM

Why would the Goddesses allow any of the Twili to have the ability to go back to the world of Light? It's like locking up a murderer but giving him the key to escape his prison.


Zant is not an ordinary Twili; he's a sorceror who has trained control over the connection between Light and Darkness. But he does not have the power to pass between realms, or the ability to actually attack the Light World without the Twili supporting him. The actual threat was minimal until Ganondorf arrived.

I think we should keep in mind Zant's crazy. He doesn't need a legitimate reason to hate the Royal Family.


And yet Midna responds to Zant's words as if they're perfectly reasonable. Zant was greedy, and the Royal Family rebuffed him because of his greed. I don't buy your explanation.

Edited by Raian, 28 May 2008 - 10:39 AM.


#602 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 11:39 AM

But Zant, as Onmyoji (master of Light and Darkness), has that ability. All Zant needs is magical power in order to use that ability; to travel between realms.
The Twili Royal Family possess magical power; they cannot travel between realms with it, but Zant can using his ability.
Zant was in line for the throne, because of his Onmyoji status, and in that position, Zant would acquire the Royal Family's magic power, which would allow him to work his ability to travel between realms.
The Royal Family saw the greed in Zant's eyes, and so they wouldn't allow him to become king and acquire their magic. Zant left the court in a state of malice, and Ganondorf gave him his own magical power instead.

MPS, does this not work? Why (if it doesn't work)?


You're giving Zant powers he doesn't have simply because of a symbolic connection I made. Given that the Twili aren't Japanese, he can't be a LITERAL damned Onmyoji, and given that Midna is pretty much a cookie-cutter keikai no otome-mikoto like Zelda, her power greatly trumps Zant's. She would be like, for lack of a better word, a DOUBLE Onmyoji. If Midna can't do it, Zant certainly can't.

And Zant probably hates the royal family not because they have the magic to switch worlds, but because they're PERFECTLY CONTENT with their lot in life and don't even try.

#603 Hero of Legend

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 01:33 PM

Notes:
- The royal family maintained cultural exchange with the sky, not just contact.
- Note how the messenger had to be approved.
- It is specified that book was needed by the messenger.
- "People of the sky" doesn't have to refer to the Oocca alone, it may include TMC's Wind People.
- The book is given a title and/or description: the historic documents of the sky. This explains what the messenger needed it for: to note down the conversations between the Hylians and the sky people.
- Japanese says that the book is missing several words, not just letters.
- The name of the ancient language is not Sky Writing.

I think we can almost be certain that the Oocca are not the ancient race. It's either that, or their culture took quite a nose dive... The fact that the Japanese is so unspecific further lends itself to this idea. However, I would ask you, if you have not already done so, to translate Oocco's statements about the Temple of Time and the Copy Rod. It could prove important.

Copy Rod is a good name, btw. The statues are copying the user's movements.

About the book, I don't think it was a work of the Hylians – why then would it be written in the sky language? It seems to me more like a ‘guide’ to the City in the Sky and the sky people, which is what Shad and, apparently, the messenger to the sky used it as. It works perfectly with Impal's story: together with the Copy Rod, the book is the key to opening the way to the canon room, ensuring that only the ones sent by the royal family are allowed entrance to the City.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 28 May 2008 - 01:35 PM.


#604 Raien

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Posted 28 May 2008 - 07:23 PM

Fair enough, MPS. I simply think that Zant wanting to invade the Light World is an acknowledgment that it is possible for the Twili to do so. I don't claim to know how this was intended to be done before Ganondorf's arrival, but I think Zant needed the Royal Family's power to do it. You're right that I set upon the "master of Light and Darkness" angle because it was convenient for my beliefs, but if that isn't plausible, then it will probably be something more general but difficult to accomplish.

Edited by Raian, 28 May 2008 - 07:46 PM.


#605 Duke Serkol

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 01:09 PM

About the book, I don't think it was a work of the Hylians – why then would it be written in the sky language? It seems to me more like a ‘guide’ to the City in the Sky and the sky people, which is what Shad and, apparently, the messenger to the sky used it as.

Jumbie thinks the book was used to record what was said to the messenger because of its name: "historic documents of the sky". Admittedly the name does seem to imply that the book contains more than just instructions to reach the Sky People. However, you bring up a valid point by its being written in Sky Language. Maybe the messenger only carried it for the Sky People to write in there and let the Royal Family read it when it was brought back to earth?

#606 Hero of Legend

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 04:31 PM

That could work, but I assumed the name of the book implied that it was, well, what it says it is; a book about the history of the sky. Does the Japanese wording exclude the possibility that the book was a summary of the Sky People's history given to the Hylians (containing important things like location of the statues and the canon) and used as a means to ensure a proper exchange between the peoples? Hylians, being the lesser race would be the ones needing such instruction, and that might be why the messenger always brought it with him when meeting with the Sky People. That's how I understood it, at least.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 29 May 2008 - 04:33 PM.


#607 Jumbie

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 08:24 PM

However, I would ask you, if you have not already done so, to translate Oocco's statements about the Temple of Time and the Copy Rod. It could prove important.

Definitely. I still need to check a whole lot revolving around the Sky chapter...

About the book, I don't think it was a work of the Hylians – why then would it be written in the sky language?

I have a theory. In TMC, the Wind People shared the same language with the Hylians, seeing as their inscription in the Wind Ruins is legible to Link without Ezlo's help, and as all of them talk naturally to Link (in fact anything else would be surprising, as they just departed to the skies a few decades ago). That means that during TMC, the sky language was identical to Hy(ru)lian.
So if the language never developed in the skies because they remained among their own kind, different than all the Hyrulian races, that could mean they preserved the ancient TMC Hyrulian until the days of TP, whereas down on the ground it developed into TP Hylian.
Now one can speculate that as long as the cultural exchange took place, the sky language was still understood by the Hylians. Or even if the languages should already have diverged considerably, Hylian scholars have always studied it as a foreign language anyway.

What I like about this theory is that that way, we would witness two historical stages of the Hylian language in the same game. I think it makes sense that the sky language was the predecessor of Hylian, with the Wind People being presented in TMC somewhat as the predecessors of the Hylian race.

It seems to me more like a ‘guide’ to the City in the Sky and the sky people, which is what Shad and, apparently, the messenger to the sky used it as. It works perfectly with Impal's story: together with the Copy Rod, the book is the key to opening the way to the canon room, ensuring that only the ones sent by the royal family are allowed entrance to the City.

That could work, but I assumed the name of the book implied that it was, well, what it says it is; a book about the history of the sky. Does the Japanese wording exclude the possibility that the book was a summary of the Sky People's history given to the Hylians (containing important things like location of the statues and the canon) and used as a means to ensure a proper exchange between the peoples? Hylians, being the lesser race would be the ones needing such instruction, and that might be why the messenger always brought it with him when meeting with the Sky People. That's how I understood it, at least.

The wording doesn't exclude that, no. It's a fact that the messenger needed the book to recite a spell that enabled them to reach the sky cannon (and a second spell for the rare case of having to repair the Copy Rod). But apart from that, I think the book was mainly used to chronicle the dialogue between the Hylians and the sky, since it'd be very untypical for a messenger to remember all the information by heart. So, I interpret "historic documents" in the way that the book only later came to be called that, as chronicles of all the interracial conversations.

As for the owl locations, I'm not sure if they would be given by the book. Shad tells them to Link from what he knows of his father's notes instead by consulting the newly found book, implying that that knowledge was kept elsewhere (within the Hylian royal family, most likely). This in turn would make it redundant for the book to contain the owl locations.
And independant of that, it would've been a huge undertaking to travel around Hyrule each time before going to the skies, which makes me think that the owl statues may have been just a measure for the emergency case of people forgetting the spell to access the sky cannon.
Or else, the letters could've been removed from the book only after the contact between the peoples had been severed. Or maybe, in order to severe the contact?! But in that case, where did the owl statues suddenly come from?

Damn, so many questions... Really looks like we need a thread about it, doesn't it?

Edited by Jumbie, 29 May 2008 - 08:30 PM.


#608 LionHarted

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 08:30 PM

In TMC, the Wind People shared the same language with the Hylians, seeing as their inscription in the Wind Ruins is legible to Link without Ezlo's help, and as all of them talk naturally to Link (in fact anything else would be surprising, as they just departed to the skies a few decades ago). That means that during TMC, the sky language was identical to Hy(ru)lian.


Link has a Jabber Nut, silly.

#609 Jumbie

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 08:44 PM

Link has a Jabber Nut, silly.

Whatever. It's not implied that the signs on the inscription are unusual in any way (in fact they are symbols of TMC Hylian!); and it would be idiotic for the Wind People to leave behind a message no one can read (unless in the unlikely case that they've been to a Minish garden).

...And yet you must try and torpedo anything. Even though it doesn't help your timeline at all to assume the Wind People speak a language different from Hylian.

Edited by Jumbie, 29 May 2008 - 08:45 PM.


#610 LionHarted

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 08:49 PM

Whatever. It's not implied that the signs on the inscription are unusual in any way (in fact they are symbols of TMC Hylian!); and it would be idiotic for the Wind People to leave behind a message no one can read (unless in the unlikely case that they've been to a Minish garden).

...And yet you must try and torpedo anything. Even though it doesn't help your timeline at all to assume the Wind People speak a language different from Hylian.


I'm really not attacking your overall point, just the justification. I disagree with the point, but it's really irrelevant for the reasons you stated.

As for your point about the message, it's about as idiotic as the king of AoL leaving behind a scroll that only one person will be able to read. Personally, I think the two cases are rather comparable in that respect.

#611 CID Farwin

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 12:56 AM

Hm, this is what I get for disappearing for a few days.

But keep in mind that the removed dying speech shows that Ganondorf's death was impending anyway...


I didn't mean that Zant caused Ganondorf's death, it just makes my original view of the ending scene have more validity.

Zant is dead.
We see Ganondorf dying.
Zant is shown to die right before Ganondorf.
i.e. Zant is really dead and cannot come back, thanks to Gannondorf's kickin' the bucket.

The problem I had with that is why show it at all, and if they've got an Onimyouji's pact between them, there's a reason to show them both dying at the same time.

- The royal family maintained cultural exchange with the sky, not just contact.
- Note how the messenger had to be approved.
- It is specified that book was needed by the messenger.
- "People of the sky" doesn't have to refer to the Oocca alone, it may include TMC's Wind People.
- The book is given a title and/or description: the historic documents of the sky. This explains what the messenger needed it for: to note down the conversations between the Hylians and the sky people.
- Japanese says that the book is missing several words, not just letters.
- The name of the ancient language is not Sky Writing.

I'm sure that this is unintentional on your part, but the way you depict the book seems reminiscent of the Book of Mudora. (not saying that it is, but it's reminiscent, like the Mirror of Twilight to FSA's Dark Mirror.)

Edited by CID Farwin, 30 May 2008 - 12:57 AM.


#612 Duke Serkol

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 12:13 PM

Link has a Jabber Nut, silly.

Ah that's right, I always forget that!

It's not implied that the signs on the inscription are unusual in any way (in fact they are symbols of TMC Hylian!); and it would be idiotic for the Wind People to leave behind a message no one can read

...which is exactly why it would be in the language of the ground dwellers since it was left for them ;)

#613 Hero of Legend

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 12:58 PM

I have a theory. In TMC, the Wind People shared the same language with the Hylians, seeing as their inscription in the Wind Ruins is legible to Link without Ezlo's help, and as all of them talk naturally to Link (in fact anything else would be surprising, as they just departed to the skies a few decades ago). That means that during TMC, the sky language was identical to Hy(ru)lian.

I see where you're coming from, and I do believe the members of the Wind Tribe speak Hylian in TMC - we do know that some of them live among and/or visit the Hylians (three are seen doing this in TMC), indicating that they all know Hylian, which means the argument that it is the Jabber Nut that enables Link to understand them is likely false (and besides, the nut is only said to enable him to speak the Minish language - another example of a Minish-related check-before-you-talk misstep, courtesy of our friend LionHarted). On the other hand, they might very well have their own language besides, though that is speculation at this point. I guess the most realistic shot we will ever have at finding out anything for sure is if Nintendo decides to tell the story of how Vaati conquered the Palace of Winds.

Damn, so many questions... Really looks like we need a thread about it, doesn't it?

Yes, that might be a good idea.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 30 May 2008 - 01:01 PM.


#614 LionHarted

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 01:59 PM

and besides, the nut is only said to enable him to speak the Minish language - another example of a Minish-related check-before-you-talk misstep, courtesy of our friend LionHarted


The nut is needed to understand the Minish language.

But that's a rather open statement.

#615 Hero of Legend

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 03:17 PM

All I’m saying is we shouldn't pretend its some know-it-all nut of languages, because that's not what the game says it is. It’s a Minish invention that enables outsiders to speak Minish. Does that indicate it teaches other languages as well? Not really.

#616 Duke Serkol

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 04:12 PM

the nut is only said to enable him to speak the Minish language

I'm pretty sure we are to understand that Link also uses it to talk to animals. However, seeing as this is not possible while in normal size, I suppose it only works while Link is shrunk down.

#617 Hero of Legend

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 07:01 PM

Hmm... I suppose that's true. Well, that’s that, huh?

#618 Jumbie

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 09:31 PM

I'm sure that this is unintentional on your part, but the way you depict the book seems reminiscent of the Book of Mudora. (not saying that it is, but it's reminiscent, like the Mirror of Twilight to FSA's Dark Mirror.)

Hm, I don't have that impression. The historic documents were for exchange with the Sky People, while the Book of Mudora was (from what the game shows, disregarding the NoA manual) just a dictionary for old Hylian.

I guess the most realistic shot we will ever have at finding out anything for sure is if Nintendo decides to tell the story of how Vaati conquered the Palace of Winds.

It's probably not the same Palace of Winds in TMC and FS/A. FSA says that Vaati created the Palace when he last threatened Hyrule (in FS), and that the Palace crumbling is because it was built on Vaati's magic and cannot exist with its master gone.

#619 LionHarted

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 10:00 PM

It's probably not the same Palace of Winds in TMC and FS/A. FSA says that Vaati created the Palace when he last threatened Hyrule (in FS), and that the Palace crumbling is because it was built on Vaati's magic and cannot exist with its master gone.


Which is rather bizarre, because it seems almost identical in both in most respects.

Perhaps Vaati took over the original Palace of Winds and twisted it to his own design? That would suffice to explain why Vaati's magic is what holds it together.

Edited by LionHarted, 30 May 2008 - 10:01 PM.


#620 Hero of Legend

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Posted 31 May 2008 - 04:18 AM

It's probably not the same Palace of Winds in TMC and FS/A. FSA says that Vaati created the Palace when he last threatened Hyrule (in FS), and that the Palace crumbling is because it was built on Vaati's magic and cannot exist with its master gone.

Well, the same holds true for the transformed Dark Hyrule Castle in TMC, and I thought that along with the already existent Palace of Winds was indication enough of how Vaati created his fortress in FS/FSA (which existed before that btw, because that’s obvious in FS – FSA must speak of FS’s backstory when Vaati first returned after his defeat in TMC).

Edited by Hero of Legend, 31 May 2008 - 04:34 AM.


#621 Jumbie

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Posted 31 May 2008 - 11:49 PM

Well, the same holds true for the transformed Dark Hyrule Castle in TMC

Hm, not a bad explanation at first glance. But TMC names no reason for the castle's collapsing, nothing ever happens to it except for a few boulders blocking the exits, and as Link and Zelda flee, Vaati reveals that he survived all along - meaning that he personally damaged the castle. All that is very much like Ganondorf in OoT, rather than FSA.

and I thought that along with the already existent Palace of Winds was indication enough of how Vaati created his fortress in FS/FSA (which existed before that btw, because that’s obvious in FS – FSA must speak of FS’s backstory when Vaati first returned after his defeat in TMC).

Yellow Maiden: "When he last tried to conquer Hyrule, he built a Palace of Winds in the Realm of the Heavens."
"Last tried" must refer to FS, not its backstory. Moreover, "built" is very different from "transformed".

Which is rather bizarre, because it seems almost identical in both in most respects.

I heavily disagree. Luckily, my theories don't even require the Palaces of Winds to all be the same:

From the outside, FSA's Palace of Winds looks just like a castle from Arabian Nights, something that we've never seen in any other Zelda. The interior, too, bears no resemblance to TMC's Palace of Winds, being just one storey tall, roofed, wheatherproof, and impermeable to light. (I suppose that could be arranged via magic, but that still wouldn't make it similar to FS' Palace of Winds then).

In TMC, we have a Tibetian-looking house of the Wind People, and above that, a ruined five-floor Palace of Winds (which I suspect to be one of the four buildings in TP's City in the Sky).
In FSA, we first enter a dark cloud which contains the ruins of a huge fortress, and only afterwards do we arrive at Vaati's actual Palace. So I would say the ruins around the dark cloud are the thing that should be identified as TMC's Palace of Winds, while Vaati's own Palace of Winds was built in FS.

#622 Hero of Legend

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 07:26 AM

Hm, not a bad explanation at first glance. But TMC names no reason for the castle's collapsing, nothing ever happens to it except for a few boulders blocking the exits, and as Link and Zelda flee, Vaati reveals that he survived all along - meaning that he personally damaged the castle. All that is very much like Ganondorf in OoT, rather than FSA.

Yes, I thought of that, but I still think it tells us that the tell-tale difference you were talking about is not conclusive. Indeed, we don't even know if Vaati died for real in FSA (he's only said to have lost his power and been defeated - like in TMC). On the other, the castle doesn’t change back/break down when Vaati was defeated in TMC, so in that sense you’re right.

Yellow Maiden: "When he last tried to conquer Hyrule, he built a Palace of Winds in the Realm of the Heavens."
"Last tried" must refer to FS, not its backstory. Moreover, "built" is very different from "transformed".

To be honest I don’t think FSA considers FS to be an attempt by Vaati to conquer Hyrule (because he didn’t try to do that.) But more important is the fact that FS plainly states Vaati already had his Palace of Winds. It’s said in the manual that the boy from the legend entered his palace and fought him, and moreover, Vaati’s first words after escaping are: My name is Vaati. I am the great wind mage! The seal is broken... so I shall rage yet again! Hoh hoh hoh! And what a gift awaits my return! I shall make you my bride! Onward we go, to my palace of winds! Hoh hoh hoh!

As for ‘building’ vs ‘transforming’ I don’t think that’s a relevant distinction. The maiden didn’t live when Vaati created it so she wouldn’t know exactly how he did it, and if it comes down to FSA vs TMC, I’ve gotta go with the latter as a more credible source of information about the FS series. Original creator intent and all that stuff.

I heavily disagree. Luckily, my theories don't even require the Palaces of Winds to all be the same:

That theory works, though I don’t agree with it. But as for what LionHarted was saying; from what little I've seen, I think the FS Palace of Winds looks a lot like the TMC Palace of Winds. The Palace in FSA is obviously very different from either, and has been redesigned quite extensively by Ganon, so it's not a good argument against what is suggested in TMC and FS.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 01 June 2008 - 07:32 AM.


#623 Jumbie

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 04:08 PM

Indeed, we don't even know if Vaati died for real in FSA (he's only said to have lost his power and been defeated - like in TMC).

I believe Vaati died both in FSA and in TMC. About FSA it's just guesswork. But in the end of TMC, the Mage's Hat Vaati was wearing goes back to Ezlo. I doubt that Vaati can exist in his demon form without the Mage's Hat, as the cap's gold rim and ruby formed an integral part of his face.

To be honest I don’t think FSA considers FS to be an attempt by Vaati to conquer Hyrule (because he didn’t try to do that.)

In FSA, Vaati only continues what he failed at in FS. Maidens are kidnapped again, he returns to the Palace of Winds. If we have FSA saying that Vaati once tried to conquer Hyrule, we should assume that that's exactly what he's again trying to do right now. And with FSA being for Vaati like a "second quest" of FS, we should assume he wanted to conquer Hyrule in FS, too.
In the backstory of FS it's also never said he wanted to conquer Hyrule, but it doesn't have to be spelled out for us to know that no baddie will ever be tolerated in a country as long as there's someone else ruling it whom they haven't disposed of.

But more important is the fact that FS plainly states Vaati already had his Palace of Winds. It’s said in the manual that the boy from the legend entered his palace and fought him

"He boldly entered Vaati's palace."
That doesn't have to be the Palace of Winds. For all we know, it could even refer to Dark Hyrule Castle.
In any case it's one single word, which could've been inserted by NoA to replace "hideout" or some such. Too bad we don't have the Japanese manual.

and moreover, Vaati’s first words after escaping are: My name is Vaati. I am the great wind mage! The seal is broken... so I shall rage yet again! Hoh hoh hoh! And what a gift awaits my return! I shall make you my bride! Onward we go, to my palace of winds! Hoh hoh hoh!

Ganondorf in TP: "Welcome to my castle."

Edited by Jumbie, 01 June 2008 - 04:10 PM.


#624 CID Farwin

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 04:43 PM

I'm sure that this is unintentional on your part, but the way you depict the book seems reminiscent of the Book of Mudora. (not saying that it is, but it's reminiscent, like the Mirror of Twilight to FSA's Dark Mirror.)

Hm, I don't have that impression. The historic documents were for exchange with the Sky People, while the Book of Mudora was (from what the game shows, disregarding the NoA manual) just a dictionary for old Hylian.

Well, it's a weak argument to start with, and that wasn't the reason why. Even with the NoA manual you have compiled legends and such vs. written history.

I guess what I picked up on was the "Ancient Language" bit.

#625 LionHarted

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 04:43 PM

FSA differs from FS in that in FS, Vaati was not making Hyrule a realm of darkness, while he is helping Ganon to do so in FSA.

#626 Hero of Legend

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 05:44 PM

I believe Vaati died both in FSA and in TMC. About FSA it's just guesswork. But in the end of TMC, the Mage's Hat Vaati was wearing goes back to Ezlo. I doubt that Vaati can exist in his demon form without the Mage's Hat, as the cap's gold rim and ruby formed an integral part of his face.

I admit that's possibly, but it would require Vaati to be revived somehow - a seemingly unnecessary assumption. As I see it, at the end of TMC Vaati had already become a demon. Loosing the Mage's Cap or even the light force and the rest of his power could never change that fact (like with Ganon in AoL). What I think happened was simply that he was left powerless and shapeless - a bit like Sauron in LotR actually, 'evil eye' and all - and unable to cause any further harm. Ezlo does say "his power has waned" and not anything else (I do wish we had TMC's Japanese text dump).

You don't see any direct problems with this interpretation, do you? Just checking so we understand each other.

Now as for FS's backstory, I think what happened was that Vaati regained his power (duh), but how did this happen? Well, based on the fact that Vaati had no connection (besides his name) to the wind in TMC, and the fact that the Wind Tribe and their Palace of Winds is ripe for the taking... Well, think you know where I'm going with this. It's a simple fact that Vaati needs to become the Wind Sorcerer at one point or another, and since we know he gains power mainly by taking it from others, it makes sense to assume he stole it from the keepers of the Wind Element.

Again, you don't have any real objections to any of this, right? I wouldn't want to have missed anything important...

And as for FSA - blatant attempts to belittle Vaati in the face of Ganon aside - the reason I don't think he died there is his less-than-definite death, as well as the fact that he is never actually said to die. Think of it this way: every other boss save Ganon (who does not die) leaves Force Gems behind. Vaati has spent most of the game absorbing the force of the land, and in fact drops Force Gems when hit - but not when he dies. Why? I think there is more than one reason, but I also think the fact that Nintendo did not want to kill Vaati of is one of them. One could even argue Bellum's death in PH (where he turns into force) is a retroactive support of this interpretation, given his and Vaati's obvious kinship. Of course you don't have to agree with me about this one.

In FSA, Vaati only continues what he failed at in FS. Maidens are kidnapped again, he returns to the Palace of Winds. If we have FSA saying that Vaati once tried to conquer Hyrule, we should assume that that's exactly what he's again trying to do right now. And with FSA being for Vaati like a "second quest" of FS, we should assume he wanted to conquer Hyrule in FS, too.

Actually, the "second quest" aspect is what makes me doubt the maiden is referring to FS - it's almost like the first part of the game. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about that one, though.

In the backstory of FS it's also never said he wanted to conquer Hyrule, but it doesn't have to be spelled out for us to know that no baddie will ever be tolerated in a country as long as there's someone else ruling it whom they haven't disposed of.

Well, one of the things I liked about Vaati was that he didn't care about ruling. He just did what he wanted. I believe it would be wrong to argue that he was trying to conquer Hyrule when the story specifically states that he let the knights come to him, although I admit FSA says differently.

"He boldly entered Vaati's palace."
That doesn't have to be the Palace of Winds. For all we know, it could even refer to Dark Hyrule Castle.
In any case it's one single word, which could've been inserted by NoA to replace "hideout" or some such. Too bad we don't have the Japanese manual.

Ganondorf in TP: "Welcome to my castle."

I'm sorry Jumbie, but this seems a lot like twisting words to make them mean what you want them to. Sure, your interpretation is possible, but do you really believe that was the intended meaning of those words? In TP we know what Ganondorf meant by saying it was his castle. In FS we have absolutely no reason not to think Vaati is not telling things straight. It is his Palace of Winds, and he’s going there right now. If it matters to you, there are a couple of fairies who also agree Vaati's palace is very much existent at the beginning of FS.

Of course you could argue FSA recons this. I would understand that, though I would still consider Fujibayashi's tale to be supreme within his own series.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 01 June 2008 - 05:50 PM.


#627 Jumbie

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 09:06 PM

I admit that's possibly, but it would require Vaati to be revived somehow - a seemingly unnecessary assumption.

Or reincarnated, like Ganondorf. Ever since I got convinced that TMC is too different to be FS's backstory, I've thought Vaati is reborn as a new person since this also allows for other games to happen between TMC and FS (and for him to develop the lust for young girls which the Minish one lacked).

You don't see any direct problems with this interpretation, do you? Just checking so we understand each other.

Not at all, no.

Again, you don't have any real objections to any of this, right? I wouldn't want to have missed anything important...

He stole the powers of wind from them? That's a neat idea, I might adopt it.

Of course you don't have to agree with me about this one.

Good, because I wasn't going to. Not necessarily, at least. While I'm not one of those who say, "Vaati's definitely dead after FSA!", I rely on Zelda's quote that Vaati's Palace crumbles because its master is gone. But of course we cannot know what "gone" is supposed to mean, so the question remains.

Well, one of the things I liked about Vaati was that he didn't care about ruling. He just did what he wanted. I believe it would be wrong to argue that he was trying to conquer Hyrule when the story specifically states that he let the knights come to him, although I admit FSA says differently.

And quoth Vaati, "Let the knights come to me!" ...I couldn't resist :D

I'm sorry Jumbie, but this seems a lot like twisting words to make them mean what you want them to. Sure, your interpretation is possible, but do you really believe that was the intended meaning of those words? In TP we know what Ganondorf meant by saying it was his castle. In FS we have absolutely no reason not to think Vaati is not telling things straight. It is his Palace of Winds, and he’s going there right now. If it matters to you, there are a couple of fairies who also agree Vaati's palace is very much existent at the beginning of FS.

I admit I'm having a hard time explaining away your last point. Seems like I have to give in to the notion that "When he last tried to conquer Hyrule" refers to FS' backstory... But that still doesn't have to be TMC.
So, long after TMC and some time before FS' backstory, Vaati could've revived, stolen the power to control wind from the Wind People, and... maybe he did occupy their Palace, because as you said, in FS it does look like in TMC.
The important thing is that in FSA it does not. FSA's Palace of Winds is not the one from TMC, because there's another sky fortress in FSA that looks much more like TMC's Palace of Winds than the actual final level does.

#628 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 01 June 2008 - 11:39 PM

Or reincarnated, like Ganondorf. Ever since I got convinced that TMC is too different to be FS's backstory, I've thought Vaati is reborn as a new person since this also allows for other games to happen between TMC and FS (and for him to develop the lust for young girls which the Minish one lacked).


Yea, because someone just gave birth to a horrible eye monster. :P

Since Vaati doesn't lose his portion of the Light Force at his death, I think resurrecting him is a simple matter. As for why he has a lust for girls, perhaps his revival was botched (lol OOX), and he only remembered that he was trying to get "some girl" "for some reason".

There's probably something in my repertoire of Japanese literature and myth I can compare it to if I look.

#629 Jumbie

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 12:37 AM

Or reincarnated, like Ganondorf. Ever since I got convinced that TMC is too different to be FS's backstory, I've thought Vaati is reborn as a new person since this also allows for other games to happen between TMC and FS (and for him to develop the lust for young girls which the Minish one lacked).

Yea, because someone just gave birth to a horrible eye monster. :P

I meant of course reincarnated in a non-demon form. Not necessarily as a Minish again, maybe this time as a human who looks like his human version in TMC.

Since Vaati doesn't lose his portion of the Light Force at his death, I think resurrecting him is a simple matter. As for why he has a lust for girls, perhaps his revival was botched (lol OOX), and he only remembered that he was trying to get "some girl" "for some reason".

Oh, I really like that explanation!

#630 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 01:40 PM

I meant of course reincarnated in a non-demon form. Not necessarily as a Minish again, maybe this time as a human who looks like his human version in TMC.


I still doubt he was reincarnated. Occam's Razor prefers resurrection.