Alright, I realize this doesn't have a ton to do with storyline, but I find it interesting and semi-relevant to the story. Like most people, I at first assumed Ganon to be a pig, easy right? The general US interpretation being that of a glutton or somebody who is greedy. This interpretation doesn't really hold up well in most other societies, so I looked deeper into it.
In actuallity it makes more sense to relate the transformation to a boar, as in many cultures the boar is seen as a great power, a great warrior. As something "ferocious and cunning" all of these seem to fit with the portrait of Ganon given to us throughout the games, for he seems to be anything but gluttenous in most games.
As a side note, the pig represents among other things, regeneration and rebirth, two traits that I'd say fit Ganon all too well.
If I'm wrong tell me, I don't expect this to become a particularly hot discussion, but I did think it would be enlightening to share this information.
Symbolism in Ganon's Transformation
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, Oct 18 2004 12:52 PM
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#2
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Posted 18 October 2004 - 02:41 PM
Yes! Ganondorf is all powerful! WORSHIP ME!!! Ya, eating is fun too.
#3
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Posted 18 October 2004 - 04:01 PM
Wow. That's amazing! And it really makes sense once you think about it.
I always wondered about his transformation into pig-like monster. I just assumed it had some sort of relation to Arabic culture as the pig seems to be some sort of "holy animal" of some sort. But knowlege of that is limited to a very lame joke to kids were talking about at my old church about how the only way to stop a terrorist is to bring a pig with you whenever you board an airplane. I'm so glad to be out of that church....
I always wondered about his transformation into pig-like monster. I just assumed it had some sort of relation to Arabic culture as the pig seems to be some sort of "holy animal" of some sort. But knowlege of that is limited to a very lame joke to kids were talking about at my old church about how the only way to stop a terrorist is to bring a pig with you whenever you board an airplane. I'm so glad to be out of that church....
#4
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Posted 18 October 2004 - 09:09 PM
Ya, the link there is cool. Nice find Blackhawk!
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Posted 19 October 2004 - 07:28 AM
On another note, I always thought the transformation at the end of OoT was not only a desperate ploy for survival and vengeance, but it looks as if Ganon is showing his true colors, his inner evil soul there.
#6
Kairu Hakubi
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Posted 19 October 2004 - 12:31 PM
I think that joke meant the opposite, because pigs are unclean in middle eastern cultures (both judaism and islam).. perhaps your friend meant if you bring a pig, you could throw it at the terrorists and theyd be unclean.. or something.. ._.'
anyway though, it would support ganon's transformation.. his tainted unclean soul has turned him into a pig..
still, to me, he was always more of a 'demon' demon.. with cloven hooves, horns/tusks, and other caprine/porcine features.. and the main body of a goblin.. just a monstrous humanoid.
sometimes he does have pig ears and snout, though, this can't be denied..
anyway though, it would support ganon's transformation.. his tainted unclean soul has turned him into a pig..
still, to me, he was always more of a 'demon' demon.. with cloven hooves, horns/tusks, and other caprine/porcine features.. and the main body of a goblin.. just a monstrous humanoid.
sometimes he does have pig ears and snout, though, this can't be denied..
#7
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Posted 19 October 2004 - 03:41 PM
This little piggy went to the market,
This little piggy stayed home,
This little piggy had roast beef,
And this little piggy had none,
And this little piggy GAINED THE GOLDEN POWER AND CONQUERED ALL WHO STOOD BEFORE HIM!! MWAHAHAHA!!!
Oh, and, uh...yeah, your analysis makes sense. However, I say we have to think back to the original Zelda to analyze what sort of creature Ganon really is. After all, the rest of the games just have Ganon as a different interpretation of the original. I know the picture below is hard to see, but, if you look closely you can see that Ganon has no tusks, and is thus a pig, not a boar. I think they made him look more and more boar-like and demon-like as the series went on so he would look more mean and evil, as opposed to being more like a running gag.
This little piggy stayed home,
This little piggy had roast beef,
And this little piggy had none,
And this little piggy GAINED THE GOLDEN POWER AND CONQUERED ALL WHO STOOD BEFORE HIM!! MWAHAHAHA!!!
Oh, and, uh...yeah, your analysis makes sense. However, I say we have to think back to the original Zelda to analyze what sort of creature Ganon really is. After all, the rest of the games just have Ganon as a different interpretation of the original. I know the picture below is hard to see, but, if you look closely you can see that Ganon has no tusks, and is thus a pig, not a boar. I think they made him look more and more boar-like and demon-like as the series went on so he would look more mean and evil, as opposed to being more like a running gag.
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Posted 19 October 2004 - 04:42 PM
That's an interesting theory... However, I do think they meant pig rather than boar. (A boar is a kind of a pig though.) The "pigness" in Ganon's personality is shown through the uncleanliness of his soul and by his greed. He is depicted as a half-civilized desert warlord, haughty and desiring the whole world.
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Posted 19 October 2004 - 04:53 PM
I think that joke meant the opposite, because pigs are unclean in middle eastern cultures (both judaism and islam).. perhaps your friend meant if you bring a pig, you could throw it at the terrorists and theyd be unclean.. or something.. ._.'
anyway though, it would support ganon's transformation.. his tainted unclean soul has turned him into a pig..
still, to me, he was always more of a 'demon' demon.. with cloven hooves, horns/tusks, and other caprine/porcine features.. and the main body of a goblin.. just a monstrous humanoid.
sometimes he does have pig ears and snout, though, this can't be denied..
First off, he WAS NOT my friend. Also, it was still a very ignorant thing for him to say. I look Middle Eastern though and I should have went up to him and told him off for talking about my "ancestors." But I didn't... Oh wells.
#10
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Posted 20 October 2004 - 01:04 AM
Although I do not know for sure what the hell Ganondorf transformed into in Ocarina of Time, I can say that in A Link to the Past, he's a pig. The Dark World changed you into a reflection of what was in your heart. Ganondorf was obviously greedy and dirty, so he became a pig.
As for the other games - I have no support for what he "is". He's just this giant pig like boss wielding a trident. I'm not sure what is up with the true nature of Ganon's ability to be Gerudo and Monster...sometimes he does it without the Triforce. Sometimes he does. It would be nice to have more explanation on this.
As for the other games - I have no support for what he "is". He's just this giant pig like boss wielding a trident. I'm not sure what is up with the true nature of Ganon's ability to be Gerudo and Monster...sometimes he does it without the Triforce. Sometimes he does. It would be nice to have more explanation on this.
#11
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Posted 20 October 2004 - 10:09 AM
well he's never been pink, so on a fundamental level he's not exactly a pig. piglike, sure... but the prevailing theme is an inhuman goblin-monster-ness.. with features of other animals, especially pigs.
#12
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Posted 20 October 2004 - 12:05 PM
I see everybody's point here, but the pig as a dirty greedy animal is purely US and has no basis in anything I can find. Even in the commonly told story of the three little pigs they aren't dirty, perhaps some slobishness can be seen by the younger two brothers of the story, but the wisdom and hard work of the oldest brother is what saves them.
My theory comes from the fact that the game was not made in the US, it was made in Japan, a part of Asia, where the pig is a representation of wisdom and rebirth, in other places it is an animal of fertility, but only in the states is it a greedy dirty animal. The boar I feel represents Ganon much better, as it's a warlike creature in most cultures. As far as demons go, those are usually represented as a goatlike creature, as seen in the Greek Pan, not pigs.
My theory comes from the fact that the game was not made in the US, it was made in Japan, a part of Asia, where the pig is a representation of wisdom and rebirth, in other places it is an animal of fertility, but only in the states is it a greedy dirty animal. The boar I feel represents Ganon much better, as it's a warlike creature in most cultures. As far as demons go, those are usually represented as a goatlike creature, as seen in the Greek Pan, not pigs.
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Posted 20 October 2004 - 01:14 PM
@Blackhawk
The pig doesn't have a negative image in the U.S. As a matter of fact, a majority of Americans eat pork. The pig being a filthy animal and not to be eaten is commonly in Islamic countries and beliefs.
Perhaps, the appearance of Ganon being a pig is just a trademark of Ganon that Nintendo has ran with. If they wanted to he could've started of as any other mixture of beast. Also, what causes his transformation doesn't seem to have anything to do with the Sacred Realm or the Triforce. We've seen him several times in pig form outside of the Sacred Realm. We've also seen him in pig form without the Triforce. All, I can say is that Ganon deals with the black arts and maybe that has something to do with his transformation--his black arts powers.
The pig doesn't have a negative image in the U.S. As a matter of fact, a majority of Americans eat pork. The pig being a filthy animal and not to be eaten is commonly in Islamic countries and beliefs.
Perhaps, the appearance of Ganon being a pig is just a trademark of Ganon that Nintendo has ran with. If they wanted to he could've started of as any other mixture of beast. Also, what causes his transformation doesn't seem to have anything to do with the Sacred Realm or the Triforce. We've seen him several times in pig form outside of the Sacred Realm. We've also seen him in pig form without the Triforce. All, I can say is that Ganon deals with the black arts and maybe that has something to do with his transformation--his black arts powers.
#14
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Posted 20 October 2004 - 01:16 PM
Tri-Enforcer, when you think of a pig what do you think of? And honestly, no going in deep, when you have to relate a pig to something what do you relate it with?
And possibly it's just a running thing that Nintendo stuck with, but everything has meaning, whether it was the creators intention to give it or not.
And possibly it's just a running thing that Nintendo stuck with, but everything has meaning, whether it was the creators intention to give it or not.
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Posted 20 October 2004 - 01:40 PM
Tri-Enforcer, when you think of a pig what do you think of? And honestly, no going in deep, when you have to relate a pig to something what do you relate it with?
And possibly it's just a running thing that Nintendo stuck with, but everything has meaning, whether it was the creators intention to give it or not.
I see what you're saying. But what I was trying to let you know is that the pig being filthy is not unique to the U.S. or largely enhanced by the U.S. I was just correcting what you were saying about where thoughts of pigs being filthy mostly come from. But you're right I do think of a filthy animal....(of course when I'm not thinking of a bacon cheese sandwich.)
I think everything has meaning as well...but what causes Ganon's transformation may best be associated with the fact that he's evil and engages in the black arts...or he has the spirit of a demon.
#16
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Posted 20 October 2004 - 01:46 PM
I see what you're saying. But what I was trying to let you know is that the pig being filthy is not unique to the U.S. or largely enhanced by the U.S. I was just correcting what you were saying about where thoughts of pigs being filthy mostly come from. But you're right I do think of a filthy animal....(of course when I'm not thinking of a bacon cheese sandwich.)
Okey dokey, I realize the references in many other societys, but I kind feel like they see the pig as a different kind of filthy, as in "unclean" while the perception I speak of is more of "an animal that rolls around in it's own filth and gorges itself on food".
And true, it's completely possible Ganon's transformations stem completely from his own mastery of the dark arts, I mean, judging from his upbringing that's probably the most plausible explanation and I never debated it. To explain his transformation in ALttP, that works just as well, what's in his heart transforms him, the fact that he can transform into that same creature at will outside of the dark world strengthens the fact that he really is that at heart.
As for the bacon and cheese sandwich...man could I go for one of those right now...
#17
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Posted 20 October 2004 - 01:56 PM
As for the bacon and cheese sandwich...man could I go for one of those right now...
LOL...yeah I hear you there!
#18
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Posted 20 October 2004 - 02:04 PM
egh...must push food from mind...no good food on campus...
Anyway, more seriously, I'm still trying to figure out the whole spirit of a demon thing for myself, I've seen it posted but I still need to do more research. I've generally throughout the past few years thought of Ganon being one man who is just really steamed about what happened in OoT/the Imprisoning War and since then has been trying to get back at the people of Hyrule, particularly the Royal Family. Four Swords Adventure kind throws a wrench into that theory though, judging from that the whole spirit of a demon transforms him into a monster when he gets particularly mad (think the Hulk but cooler...and more evil).
Anyway, more seriously, I'm still trying to figure out the whole spirit of a demon thing for myself, I've seen it posted but I still need to do more research. I've generally throughout the past few years thought of Ganon being one man who is just really steamed about what happened in OoT/the Imprisoning War and since then has been trying to get back at the people of Hyrule, particularly the Royal Family. Four Swords Adventure kind throws a wrench into that theory though, judging from that the whole spirit of a demon transforms him into a monster when he gets particularly mad (think the Hulk but cooler...and more evil).
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Posted 20 October 2004 - 02:16 PM
Well whoever the original Ganon was...must've been killed...then became a demon...and he's constantly being revived or reincarnated?
Now, you're speaking blasphemy! I'm very sensitive when people talk about Marvel characters.... The Hulk will smash and bash Ganon and make him change his name to Ganora...and have him serve butter cookies.
the whole spirit of a demon transforms him into a monster when he gets particularly mad (think the Hulk but cooler...and more evil).
Now, you're speaking blasphemy! I'm very sensitive when people talk about Marvel characters.... The Hulk will smash and bash Ganon and make him change his name to Ganora...and have him serve butter cookies.
#20
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Posted 20 October 2004 - 02:22 PM
So I'm guessing we don't know who the first Ganon was, I mean considering the Minish Cap it would seem that OoT Ganondorf isn't the first one. If that's the case it means that Ganon is definately a demon and not a person any longer. Dang it...that screws me over as far as Ganon theories go. Back to the drawing board...
heh, I'm with ya on the whole Marvel thing, though the Hulk has never really been my forté. I'm more a Daredevil/Spiderman/X-Men kind of guy, pity they had to ruin the whole Dardevil thing with that movie, I mean, it was good, but I was hoping for more.
[edit]
After looking over that post again, I can just imagine Ganon in a pink apron serving cookies to the Hulk. I be he'd just love that.
heh, I'm with ya on the whole Marvel thing, though the Hulk has never really been my forté. I'm more a Daredevil/Spiderman/X-Men kind of guy, pity they had to ruin the whole Dardevil thing with that movie, I mean, it was good, but I was hoping for more.
[edit]
After looking over that post again, I can just imagine Ganon in a pink apron serving cookies to the Hulk. I be he'd just love that.
#21
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Posted 20 October 2004 - 02:31 PM
Yeah, I'm marvel to the core. As a matter of fact....the whole spirit time traveling stuff...I originally read about that in an X-Man book long before OOT!
As for Ganon...who knows, maybe that red looking beast in the MC stain glass intro was the original Ganon? Whatever the case may be...if there could be several Links/Zeldas, then why not several iterations of Ganon?
As for Ganon...who knows, maybe that red looking beast in the MC stain glass intro was the original Ganon? Whatever the case may be...if there could be several Links/Zeldas, then why not several iterations of Ganon?
#22
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Posted 20 October 2004 - 02:35 PM
Good point, but I've indoctrinated myself into the fact that there is one and only one Ganon...I'm working on a twelve step program at the moment to get myself out of this destructive cycle...
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Posted 20 October 2004 - 02:38 PM
Good point, but I've indoctrinated myself into the fact that there is one and only one Ganon...I'm working on a twelve step program at the moment to get myself out of this destructive cycle...
Just think about how I felt when I found out there's more than one Link!
#24
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Posted 20 October 2004 - 02:42 PM
Wow, that must have been quite...um...traumatic.
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Posted 20 October 2004 - 02:52 PM
More like sleepless nights in the corner shaking...with my teddy bear...oh...uhmm excuse me, got kinda carried away there...hey even I have a sensitive side.
Ganon, seems to be almost like the epitome of evil in the Zelda-verse.
Ganon, seems to be almost like the epitome of evil in the Zelda-verse.
#26
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Posted 20 October 2004 - 02:57 PM
In a way, yes. But in any story the main evil guy is generally seen as the epitome of all evil. Though the fear that the land generally keeps does tend towards a semblence of "this guy is the embodyment of all evil in the world" especially since the history of Hyrule doesn't give any type of evil in it's theology, all we have are the three Goddesses, it makes sense then, that evil must arrise from somewhere correct? If there were any other evil force or personage, something comparable to the Christian Satan, then assuredly the story would have said something about it by now. In all those regards Ganon is the most evil we ever see in the games, and plausibly the epitome of all evil in Hyrule.
#27
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Posted 20 October 2004 - 07:52 PM
It could be possible that this Demon Ganon is some sort of 4th God that acted as Hyrule's Satan, and it manifests itself repeatedly as Ganondorf, but it simply MEANS more if there's one Ganon, and he is Evil on his own according. It's like saying that even if Evil is immortal and all powerful, even a sprinkle of Good can defeat it ^ ^ sparkle!
#28
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Posted 21 October 2004 - 07:19 AM
Or he's...a greedy Gerudo so corrupted with madness he's invincible and nearly forgotten why he wanted the Triforce in the first place? I'll uh...go with my option...
#29
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Posted 21 October 2004 - 07:30 AM
In a way, yes. But in any story the main evil guy is generally seen as the epitome of all evil. Though the fear that the land generally keeps does tend towards a semblence of "this guy is the embodyment of all evil in the world" especially since the history of Hyrule doesn't give any type of evil in it's theology, all we have are the three Goddesses, it makes sense then, that evil must arrise from somewhere correct? If there were any other evil force or personage, something comparable to the Christian Satan, then assuredly the story would have said something about it by now. In all those regards Ganon is the most evil we ever see in the games, and plausibly the epitome of all evil in Hyrule.
Not so! We have a Wind God and Earth God in the Wind Waker as well as the two lesser wind gods Zephos and Cyclos. And have you forgotten the Goddess of the Sands? She could be considered an "Evil" Goddess. And then theres certian immortal beings that could be considered lesser gods too like the Fairy Queen and the Great Deku Tree. There's probably lots of other gods not mentioned yet. Din, Nayru, and Farore are just the Creator Dieties. They're probably the at the top of the chain of commands but the way OoT's creation story puts it, it looks like the Goddesses created the world, made Hylians their chosen race, and then just left everyone to fend for themselves
Oh yeah. And the Goddess of Time too. Can't forget her.
#30
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Posted 21 October 2004 - 09:09 AM
btw, americans probably think of pigs as gluttonous slobs because of the conditions we keep them in and the way they've been bred here.. ^^' our pigs were traditionally -bred- to be... 'pigs'..
but now they're being bred leaner and healthier and stuff, so... heh. the attitude of the fastidious upper-class pig is coming into being... in lots of cartoons too
only one thing is universal among pigs... they don't wear pants.
but now they're being bred leaner and healthier and stuff, so... heh. the attitude of the fastidious upper-class pig is coming into being... in lots of cartoons too
only one thing is universal among pigs... they don't wear pants.
