261 replies to this topic

[vodkamaru]

These are just clips from a whole film. The first part can be found here. If you dig around his videos you can find the remaining parts.

Edited by vodkamaru, 30 July 2007 - 07:09 PM.

[SOAP]

Funny, those videos captured exactly how I feel right now. I don't think they prove anything new other than there's more questions to life than their are answers. Some people are just content ignoring those questions and believing some fairytale while some like me aren't and are miserable for it. I guess ignorance is bliss which is why I could never be happy being Christian.

Edited by SOAP, 30 July 2007 - 05:10 PM.

[TheAvengerLever]

I never went into Christianity wishing to make myself happy. If anything, being a Christian is a hell of a lot to suffer through. But I suffer through it because in the end, I get to be with Christ in Heaven.

[SOAP]

I grew up around the religion. My family wasn't particularly religious but I was rejected at school and church was only social output. For many years I was happy just being Christian and I was brainwashed into thinking that Christians were the only happy people in the world and everyone else was unhappy and it was our "duty" to make them happy by bringing them into our religion. The way I was taught was that Christianity was an all you can eat barbeque and the rest of the world was in famine and we needed to "invite" people to come and eat with us. As I grew up though I actually socializing with people outside of Christianity, I began to see how genuinely happy and GOOD people were and how I've been dooped to believe I had things any more figured out than they did. I began to be confused about my beliefs so I asked my Youth leader and my pastor these questions and no one could give me any clear answers and after a while, the church started alienating me and eventually I gave up.

I was miserable for a long long time. Then I got into college and once again the only group that would accept me were Christians, because Christians "accept everyone." But of course, I still had a mind of my own and when they realized I didn't think as they do, I was alienated again. People don't suffer because their Christian. They suffer because that's the human condition: Everyone suffers. Some people cling to an idea. When that's not enough, they have to get other people to believe as they do so their beliefs are vindicated. Christians, Muslims, Jews, Athiest... we all do it.

The thing taht pisses me off about Christianity is that it's sells itself as the solution to the world's problems but all it's done is create new ones. Christian PEOPLE might have been able helped the world a great deal but they would've been able to do it regardless of their faith, as their are many non-Christians that helped the world as well. When it gets down to it, there is no point to being Christian.

[Selena]

Oh boy. Another anti-Christian thread. We certainly don't have enough of those in Contro.




While some points are interesting and while I'm well aware of several mythological influences on the Bible, they're reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally stretching with some of those myth figures being like Jesus. Contortionist hooker kind of stretching. Just... no. Tying Jesus to a lot of those people made me question the validity of those other statements because of how off a lot of those were. But I'm a mythology nerd, so I guess it can't be helped.

[vodkamaru]

While some points are interesting and while I'm well aware of several mythological influences on the Bible, they're reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally stretching with some of those myth figures being like Jesus.

Could you explain that a little? I'd love to hear some counterpoints. I don't know the story of Oedipus besides a simple summary. Where is the stretching happening? I thought the point of the connections was just common themes with the different "hero" stories. I figured they wouldn't be exact mirrors of each other, but the fact that those stories happened centuries before the bible raises a red flag. Why would the life story of Jesus be influenced by mythology?

Edited by vodkamaru, 30 July 2007 - 06:31 PM.

[Selena]

Any excuse to tell myths. I'd be happy to.

I'd like to point out first, though, that they mainly tie resurrection onto Jesus when 'comparing' him with these other deities. While many of them are life-death-rebirth figures, their rebirths are usually tied in to some kind of natural order. The change of seasons, for example. Jesus' rebirth has nothing to do with any of that. His rebirth is more a sign of his status as the child of a deity than anything else. So while rebirth is indeed common in mythology and religion, it's not always for the same thing. Story themes surrounding the rebirth can be wildly different, and sometimes negative. It's in these themes that the stretching occurs. While Jesus is a symbol of hope and power, a lot of these are about something entirely opposite of that.

As for deities, they had a list in the background at one point. I'll hit as many as I'm decently familiar with, and try to sort by their historical invention (oldest to most recent).


Dumuzi (Sumerian - 3000 BC and earlier)
Also known as Tammuz by the Babylonians, Dumuzi is one of the very first rebirth deities in recorded history. But he's nothing like Jesus at all. Dumuzi is an arrogant twat. He's self centered, cocky, and prone to stirring up arguments with other gods. He married the goddess of war, Ishtar, after bullying her love interest to the point where he stepped aside. Once married, Dumuzi essentially used Ishtar as his sugar momma. One day, though, Ishtar decided to go into the underworld to try and seize control of the realm. There, she was killed by her sister Ereshkigal, the goddess of the underworld. She is eventually rescued by another god. The underworld has one strict law, however. If someone leaves, another person must take their place. So she has to find someone to essentially send to hell. She goes to her palace, where she sees Dumuzi. He does not care at all about her death or peril, and is in fact lounging on her throne, eating all her fine foods. In a fit of rage, she condemns him to hell.

Dumuzi's sister, however, cannot live without him. So she offers herself up to Ishtar, saying that she will spend six months of the year in the underworld to liberate her brother for half the year. The switch, Dumuzi coming to life again for half the year, is about the change of seasons. Rather like Demeter and Persephone, but more badass.

So Jesus would have to be a self centered, gold digging, lazy asshole to be like Dumuzi.


Osiris (Egyptian - 3000/2000 BC)
Osiris might have some kind of connection, but his rebirth is more tied to the flooding of the Nile than anything else. He is slain by his jealous brother, Set, and is sent to the underworld. His wife, Isis, collects his body parts and then uses her divine magic to resurrect him temporarily, as she is the goddess of magic and the divine arts. Osiris' son, Horus, is then responsible for hunting down Set and killing him. Both factions are seen as being rivals to each other. I always associated this one more with Cain and Abel than with Jesus.


Baal (Hadad) (A few Levant cultures. Dates vary, but all BC)
Baal, or the older 'Bel,' simply means 'lord.' It can refer to several gods, so it's confusing as to why they would use this. Probably because 'Baal' appears once or twice in the Bible. If anything, he has more in common with God than Jesus. He's never resurrected. He's usually the head honcho and in charge of the whole pantheon. He's the Zeus of the region. When using the name, they often refer to Hadad (Caananite), which likely stems from the Sumerian 'Adad.' Both gods were in charge of storms and thunder. I don't really see any connections at all with Jesus. He's more a warrior/storm/leader god than anything else. I've heard him likened to the Sumerian 'Enlil' as well, who was the Sumerian equivalent of Zeus or God.


Adonis (Ancient Greek - likely from 1000 BC on)
Adonis is a very nice young hunter. Beautiful and buff. He is the subject of Aphrodite's affection. She is both mentor and lover. Eventually he becomes so popular with the lady gods that Aphrodite ends up fighting over him with Demeter (or Artemis?). Because of their obsession over who gets to claim this sexy beast, Adonis is left to hunt with no divine protection. He's killed in the hunt, and the blood from his body gives birth to beautiful flowers. He's not a savior or anything really special. He has more in common with Balder than Jesus.

Orpheus (Ancient Greek)
Orpheus is more like Lot than Jesus. The son of Apollo, he journeys into the underworld to save the woman he loves. Hades agrees to let her out of the underworld, but on the condition that Orpheus never looks back or looks at her. He eventually does by accident. She is the condemned to hell again and he never recovers her.

Oedipus (Ancient Greek)
Here's one I really don't get. Jesus never married his mother, did he? Oedipus was a young prince who left his kingdom and was raised away from family. He returns as a young man to kill his father, the quasi-corrupt king. He does so, and then unknowingly marries his mother. When she finds out, she kills herself. That's about it.

Hermes (Ancient Greek again)
No clue with this one either. Hermes is a mischeivous young son of Zeus who pulls pranks and helps out travelers/heroes in need. I cannot think of a single myth where he has anything in common with Jesus. Jesus does not pull pranks. That I'm aware of. Hermes is the lighthearted joker of the Greek group.

Hercules/Theseus/Perseus (Ancient Greek)
All three heroes were the son of Zeus and a mortal woman, because Zeus is a manwhore. Hercules killed his family and to repent for his actions, he goes around the world doing great deeds. In the end, he kills himself and his new wife, and they both rise to Olympus where he becomes the god of strength. I guess I can vaguely see something there, but Hercules isn't the brightest guy and is kind of an asshole at times. Thesus killed a bull. Perseus rescued a princess and married her after killing a sea serpent.

Dionysus (More Ancient Greek)
The god of booze. And peace. He was, like the above three, born from Zeus and a mortal. But that's about it. He's a femme looking god who is associated with wine. Which I guess can be tied to communion. But other than that, nothing much in common.

Thor (Norse - early AD years, with early hintings of him during BC times)
Thor is a drunken fool whose reaction is to kill almost anything that moves. Absolutely nothing in common, unless Jesus is a binge drinking foolish madman with a warhammer. I really don't get this one.

Balder (Norse - early AD)
Balder prophecizes his own death, but cannot avoid it. After taking great lengths to protect him from harm, his mother is unable to save him from death. His passing triggers 'Ragnarok,'
the battle between the gods in which the world will be destroyed. When he returns, the world begins anew with him at the helm, replacing his father Odin as leader of the pantheon. While you can see a connection with this one, it really needs to be noted that the Christianization of Scandinavia and Europe was occurring at this time. If anything, Balder would be influenced by Jesus and not the other way around.





Most of the myth connections in the Bible are in the Old Testament rather than the New, and influenced by Sumerian mythology in particular. I can point those connections out if you'd like, but I think I'm long winded with this post enough as it is.

[SOAP]

I think the connection with Dionysus was that his name meant "Twice born" or "resurrected" or something to taht nature. I forget what but I've heard the comparison made before (it was a theory that God and Zeus were one and the same) but I think that was about all the similarities. Dionysus was a crazy bisexual from what I've heard. Jesus loved everyone but not like that...

[TheAvengerLever]

The thing taht pisses me off about Christianity is that it's sells itself as the solution to the world's problems but all it's done is create new ones.

I'm pretty sure nothing about Christianity is about problem solving. Except solving the problem of sin.

[vodkamaru]

Any excuse to tell myths. I'd be happy to.

I'd like to point out first, though, that they mainly tie resurrection onto Jesus when 'comparing' him with these other deities. While many of them are life-death-rebirth figures, their rebirths are usually tied in to some kind of natural order. The change of seasons, for example. Jesus' rebirth has nothing to do with any of that. His rebirth is more a sign of his status as the child of a deity than anything else. So while rebirth is indeed common in mythology and religion, it's not always for the same thing. Story themes surrounding the rebirth can be wildly different, and sometimes negative. It's in these themes that the stretching occurs. While Jesus is a symbol of hope and power, a lot of these are about something entirely opposite of that.

As for deities, they had a list in the background at one point. I'll hit as many as I'm decently familiar with, and try to sort by their historical invention (oldest to most recent)...

You're trying to draw direct comparisons. I'm more concerned with the broader ideas. There are many common events in Jesus' life that are shared with these deities. Thanks for the mythology. I'll have to do more reading.

Edited by vodkamaru, 30 July 2007 - 08:36 PM.

[SOAP]

The thing taht pisses me off about Christianity is that it's sells itself as the solution to the world's problems but all it's done is create new ones.

I'm pretty sure nothing about Christianity is about problem solving. Except solving the problem of sin.

Except it doesn't do that. All it does is make people feel guilty about things that are perfectly natural like looking at porn or lying. Killing is wrong but I don't see how calling it a sin worthy of damnation of hell helps things. If anything it just confuses the matter because according to Christianity, killing is the same as telling a lie. Nevermind the fact taht the world isn't black and white to begin with...

[TheAvengerLever]

I'm not confused at all by it.

I don't know why anyone would call something natural when their former Lord labeled something as a sin. I'd pretty much take what the Bible says about something first. And I know, people are going to jump up on me and quote some Old Testament verse about the slaying of newborns or something like that and say "well are you gonna do that" The answer is, never...ever talk to me if you're going to do something like that.

If someone has told you that something God labels as a sin was just natural and part of "growing up" then that is a bit of a problem.

[SOAP]

I'm not confused at all by it.

I don't know why anyone would call something natural when their former Lord labeled something as a sin. I'd pretty much take what the Bible says about something first. And I know, people are going to jump up on me and quote some Old Testament verse about the slaying of newborns or something like that and say "well are you gonna do that" The answer is, never...ever talk to me if you're going to do something like that.

If someone has told you that something God labels as a sin was just natural and part of "growing up" then that is a bit of a problem.

So in other words, somethings a "sin" because your imaginary friend says it is?

People lie, chaet, steal, and kill because they're human and should be punsihed as HUMANS. Hell as punsih,ment for any so-called sin is overkill, no matter what the sin, especially if it's something not believing in something taht no one has any proof existing until they die.

Whoa! Deja Vu. I feel like I've had this conversation with Wolf before except I was on the other side. Weird...

[Selena]

I think the connection with Dionysus was that his name meant "Twice born" or "resurrected" or something to taht nature. I forget what but I've heard the comparison made before (it was a theory that God and Zeus were one and the same) but I think that was about all the similarities. Dionysus was a crazy bisexual from what I've heard. Jesus loved everyone but not like that...

A nickname of his means 'twice born.' But it has nothing to do with resurrection. He was actually born twice in the fashion of Athena. Born, consumed, and then came out of Zeus' body. Actually, I think Dionysus was sewed into his nutsack and then escaped. Those Greeks are silly.

You're trying to draw direct comparisons. I'm more concerned with the broader ideas. There are many common events in Jesus' life that are shared with these deities. Thanks for the mythology. I'll have to do more reading.

I thought I was being quite broad, actually. At least in terms of the myths themselves. Jesus has three things going for him in comparisons: born of god and man, capable of miracles, and the big one... resurrection. Yes, there are many heroes that share these things in common with him. Almost all the Greek heroes are demigods. But they very, very seldom stand for things that are pure and holy. This is where Jesus tends to veer off. I'm not saying things about him don't scream of myths - they certainly do. There are just several stretches made that I don't particularly approve of given the nature of the characters and myths involved. It does them a bit of disservice when people only look at certain things instead of the big picture. That's the problem with searching through mythology trying to hunt Jesus down - you actually miss the big picture you're trying to concentrate on. Because so much as to do with the story.

Tammuz represented greed and aggression.
Osiris was more like Abel.
"Baal" was God, not Jesus.
Adonis was nothing more than foil for the goddesses' greed and lust.
Orpheus was Lot, not Jesus.
Oedipus was in love with his mother and not much else is going for him.
Hermes was devious and a joker who stole stuff.
Thor was a drunk god of war who hit giants over the head with a warhammer.
Balder was likely a product of Christianization.

With the demigods, you can obviously draw the comparison of being born from Zeus and a woman. When they die and 'ascend to heaven/Olympus to live forever,' that last part serves primarily as an explanation for the constellations rather than life after death. Every constellation in the sky has a myth like that behind it. The big dipper is Callisto, for example, and... yeah.

In my opinion, the main mythology behind Jesus is his resurrection. Which is admittedly far fetched and probably came after his death. Rather like the real King Arthur is said to be 'still sleeping.' Because he was likely a real person. But that's an example of a similar situation, as Arthur came much later.

In summary: To call Jesus a mythological construct is fine because there are things in mythology found in absolutely every pantheon.... but comparing him to these actual deities is folly, because they're nothing like him.

[TheAvengerLever]

So in other words, somethings a "sin" because your imaginary friend says it is?

Absolutely. But God, my friend, is no figment of my imagination.

People lie, chaet, steal, and kill because they're human and should be punsihed as HUMANS. Hell as punsih,ment for any so-called sin is overkill, no matter what the sin, especially if it's something not believing in something taht no one has any proof existing until they die.

That's called faith, and it's a good thing to have. Absolutes I tend to stay away from.

It's very simple and you've heard it all before. You've probably even defended it staking your rep. We all have sin. The only way to get rid of the sin is through Jesus Christ. Accept him, and you're saved from your horrible fate. If you don't like the idea of hell, then save your ass

[SOAP]

In summary: To call Jesus a mythological construct is fine because there are things in mythology found in absolutely every pantheon.... but comparing him to these actual deities is folly, because they're nothing like him.

How about comparing Jesus to Hercules. As far I can recall, he stood for good and moral things. He didn't perform miracles but he was super stromng and baet the crap out of monsters. He wasn't resurrected by he did ascend into Heaven after he died. Then again, my most of my knowlege of Greek mythology comes movies and TV shows like Xena so I could be completely off base.

I think Jesus existed. I think he also stood up for a lot of good things and was good man that saw that things seriously needed to change. I just think his story got ridiculously embellished, kinda like Beowulf.

So in other words, somethings a "sin" because your imaginary friend says it is?

Absolutely. But God, my friend, is no figment of my imagination.

People lie, chaet, steal, and kill because they're human and should be punsihed as HUMANS. Hell as punsih,ment for any so-called sin is overkill, no matter what the sin, especially if it's something not believing in something taht no one has any proof existing until they die.

That's called faith, and it's a good thing to have. Absolutes I tend to stay away from.

It's very simple and you've heard it all before. You've probably even defended it staking your rep. We all have sin. The only way to get rid of the sin is through Jesus Christ. Accept him, and you're saved from your horrible fate. If you don't like the idea of hell, then save your ass

Yeah, you can save the Sunday School sermon. I used to say the same exact things not too long ago, I already know it's all BS. The problem is you don't know that yet and if you're lucky, you never will. *shrug*

Edited by SOAP, 30 July 2007 - 09:45 PM.

[TheAvengerLever]

Yeah, you can save the Sunday School sermon. I used to say the same exact things not too long ago, I already know it's all BS. The problem is you don't know that yet and if you're lucky, you never will. *shrug*

Well, now I can only pray. I thought I might be offended by you calling Jesus Christ BS, but I'm not. It's what you believe and I'll respect that.

[CID Farwin]

Well, now I can only pray. I thought I might be offended by you calling Jesus Christ BS, but I'm not. It's what you believe and I'll respect that.

One good thing that this place has taught me. Respect for other's opinions, even if they differ from yours.

But after reading all this, I think I'll stick with my beliefs.

[SOAP]

Yeah, you can save the Sunday School sermon. I used to say the same exact things not too long ago, I already know it's all BS. The problem is you don't know that yet and if you're lucky, you never will. *shrug*

Well, now I can only pray. I thought I might be offended by you calling Jesus Christ BS, but I'm not. It's what you believe and I'll respect that.

That's all you Christians ever can do for anyone, isn't it? Lemme ask you this, has your prayers ever helped anyone? Because I prayed every night for my sister's leg to be healed, for this anger in my heart to go away, and I've prayed most of all prayed taht no one, including my enemies, would get hurt by me. None of those prayers have been answered. So either I just don't deserve God's help or God doesn't exist and I'm trough beating myself up so I'll go with the latter.

[TheAvengerLever]

I pray for people but I can't change the will of God. Prayer CAN make a difference, and many...MANY times it has for me. But whether or not you pray for someone it can never...EVER change the Will of God.

[CID Farwin]

Exactly! God will do everything you ask him, as long as it fits with the big picture.

[Selena]

How about comparing Jesus to Hercules. As far I can recall, he stood for good and moral things. He didn't perform miracles but he was super stromng and baet the crap out of monsters. He wasn't resurrected by he did ascend into Heaven after he died. Then again, my most of my knowlege of Greek mythology comes movies and TV shows like Xena so I could be completely off base.

I think Jesus existed. I think he also stood up for a lot of good things and was good man that saw that things seriously needed to change. I just think his story got ridiculously embellished, kinda like Beowulf.

You'd have an easier time comparing him with Hercules opposed to most of the others. But no, Hercules wasn't really like the Xena version. Although that show did rule.

Hercules was born to Zeus and a mortal woman, but when Hera found out, she dispatched serpents to kill the infant. As a baby, Hercules used super strength to kill them. Hera then tried later. She drove Hercules insane, and he ended up brutally killing his wife and children. Upon snapping out of his trance, he was told that he had to embark on a quest to redeem himself. He had to do twelve labors, each bigger and badder than the last. Eventually he completed them all - slaying a hydra, holding up the world for Atlas, all that. Then he took a second wife. He then killed himself in a pyre, dragging his new wife with him. The wife was never really heard from again, but Hercules became a constellation and the god of strength.

Hercules is never really portrayed as a the typical 'hero' in that he doesn't go out of his way to be just. He does it all just so he can redeem himself. He does no more and no less than what he has been assigned to do. He's also more 'smashy smashy!' than trying to figure out problems logically, but that's probably expected.

So yeah, Hercules would be one of the better comparisons, but Jesus is the selfless good guy where Hercules is a schizo superhuman.


In any case, yes, that's what I've usually felt. That Jesus was just a good guy who became a legend, and got overshadowed by his stories.

[MikePetersSucks]

Whoa! Deja Vu. I feel like I've had this conversation with Wolf before except I was on the other side. Weird...

Muehehehehe! *rubs hands together and curls villain mustache because HE R TEH EVUL ATHEIST QUEERSEXUAL LIBERAL AGENDA!*

Also, Selene, what about Mithra?

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Yeah, you can save the Sunday School sermon. I used to say the same exact things not too long ago, I already know it's all BS. The problem is you don't know that yet and if you're lucky, you never will. *shrug*

Well, now I can only pray. I thought I might be offended by you calling Jesus Christ BS, but I'm not. It's what you believe and I'll respect that.

Now, I can't help but notice that people here don't read what other people say properly. A few days back, someone said that if God was A, B and C (all of which are traits we'd considered bad and therefore not associated with God), then he would be an asshole. He never said God was an asshole, but many Christians here took it as if that guy did say he was an asshole, which he didn't, because if you're a Christian you'd believe that God didn't match any of the criteria he listed. (I can't remember the criteria off the top of my head, but I do remember that they were really bad and things a true Christian would never associate with God).

Likewise with today, SOAP never said Jesus was BS, but what you said was BS. He said, "it's all BS" not "he's all BS".

Maybe it's just the proximity affect. Jesus and God are too close to words in a sentence that a Christian does not want associated with him. It doesn't matter how far removed in meaning they actually are, the proximity of the two ideas just doesn't sit right. I think I'm guilty of that sort of thing too, although I can't name any instances off the top of my head...

I pray for people but I can't change the will of God. Prayer CAN make a difference, and many...MANY times it has for me. But whether or not you pray for someone it can never...EVER change the Will of God.

I don't know about you, but that sentence sounds absolutely contradictory. Unless you mean, prayer makes a difference in that it makes me feel good.

And SOAP, I'm kinda worried by the sentiments you're expressing... You wanna talk about some of your problems? I know that the collapse of a belief system can be devastating to some people. If you want to talk about it, I'm willing to listen.

[Goose]

That's all you Christians ever can do for anyone, isn't it? Lemme ask you this, has your prayers ever helped anyone? Because I prayed every night for my sister's leg to be healed, for this anger in my heart to go away, and I've prayed most of all prayed taht no one, including my enemies, would get hurt by me. None of those prayers have been answered. So either I just don't deserve God's help or God doesn't exist and I'm trough beating myself up so I'll go with the latter.

I"ll answer this directly, as it deserves a response.

I pray. I pray all the time. I pray for people, and sometimes the prayers get answered. When my sister was in hospital dying of an unknown illness, i prayed for her. I prayed that she would live to have the chance to get married and have kids and get her teaching degree. I prayed for her, and she got better. The tumor she had wasn't cancerous we later found out, but for a while there it was touch and go.

Sometimes my prayers dont get answered. One of my cousins in law, she was the loveliest person you'd ever meet. She had cancer, and she died. I prayed for her so much and I was crushed at her funeral. She had a baby daughter of only 1 year.

So did the prayer have anything to do with either situation? I believe it did. What prayer is, is putting the situation in Gods hands. Letting it go. Saying, "I can't do this by myself God, can you step in here? " Sometimes you get the response you wanted, sometimes the polar opposite happens and your left wondering why on earth something so tragic had happened.

I cant answer why tragic things happen, but I can say that we all will die. As people that's one of the guarentee's. Death, Its inevitable. If you belive in God, You'll Die, if you dont, you'll still die. Its a constant that very few argue against.


You say that you prayed for your sisters leg to be healed. How was it hurt? I dont know much about healing, but I have seen with my own eyes people given the miircle of sight, and the ability to walk and what not. Miracles do happen.

You say you prayed for the anger in your heart to go away. What were you angry about?

You say that you prayed that nobody would get hurt by you. Thats a nice thought, but we all hurt people, no matter how holy we are, or how holy we think we are. You can't blame yourself for people being hurt by you, just as you cant blame God for making you hurt people. You can swear at him, you can yell and shout, and I do consider those good things to do. But its human nature to hurt those we are closest to.


Then you issue the ultimatum, that you either dont deserve Gods help, or that he doesn't exist.

Firstly. You do deserve Gods help. You deserve Gods love. You deserve the best for your life. Dont let anyone tell you any differently, and for those within the church that tell you how evil you are, just ignore them and get on with your life.

You are a child of God and he loves you. Nobody can take your dignity away from you, because you still know in your heart that God loves you, and that you have that uniqueness about you that nobody else could ever have.

So if you do follow me in that God loves you, then why weren't your prayers answered? Gods will.

What the hell does that mean?

It means that God is up there in the sky, or standing right next to you, with a map in his hands. He has this great plan for your life. and for everybodies lives. It may be the hardest thing ever, and you may wonder why he does such horrible shit to you or other people.

Its a reasonable question that I cant fully answer. What I can say is that while sometimes things do suck along the way, there are things that are hidden that cant be comprihended when you yourself are in a shitty situation. I didn't get into university when I graduated highschool. My score wasn't good enough. I yelled at God, that was my plan. But It meant that I had to work so hard in that first semester to earn my place I learnt so much about my individual strength and character that I was happy later on for it.


And then on the other side of the equation, God just doesn't exist.

Its your choice.


I wont bother you about this again. I just dont want the impression of christianity that stays with you for the rest of your life to be what you experienced at your last church, where people judged and condemed you because of your sexual choices. Sure, I see homosexuality as sin. I also see lying as a sin thats just as bad. Same with adultery. We all sin. All as bad as eachother, no matter who you choose to sleep with. God still loves you. He still loves me. He loves everyone. Just as we should. Thats all that matters

[TheAvengerLever]

Now, I can't help but notice that people here don't read what other people say properly. A few days back, someone said that if God was A, B and C (all of which are traits we'd considered bad and therefore not associated with God), then he would be an asshole. He never said God was an asshole, but many Christians here took it as if that guy did say he was an asshole, which he didn't, because if you're a Christian you'd believe that God didn't match any of the criteria he listed. (I can't remember the criteria off the top of my head, but I do remember that they were really bad and things a true Christian would never associate with God).

Likewise with today, SOAP never said Jesus was BS, but what you said was BS. He said, "it's all BS" not "he's all BS".

I know that SOAP (and a few others here) believe Jesus is a real person, I do too. However, I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, which is the basis for Christianity. If I hear someone say "It's all BS" I'm assuming that goes with what the beliefs are, which causes one to assume that they're saying Jesus being the Son of God and dying for our sins is BS.

I don't know about you, but that sentence sounds absolutely contradictory. Unless you mean, prayer makes a difference in that it makes me feel good.

It doesn't sound contradictory at all.

[MikePetersSucks]

And SOAP, I'm kinda worried by the sentiments you're expressing... You wanna talk about some of your problems? I know that the collapse of a belief system can be devastating to some people. If you want to talk about it, I'm willing to listen.

Same here. We may have argued sometimes, but I'd do anything for ya, dude. *hug*

[Arturo]

I tghink I have already told you, but I am also worried. I thought you would feel better after this time...

[SOAP]

I pray for people but I can't change the will of God. Prayer CAN make a difference, and many...MANY times it has for me. But whether or not you pray for someone it can never...EVER change the Will of God.

But how do you know it's not some coincidence? Random events happening to random people at random times with no regard to people's characters or anything. I've tried but I just don't see any intelligence behind why good things happen to some people but not others.

In any case, yes, that's what I've usually felt. That Jesus was just a good guy who became a legend, and got overshadowed by his stories.

That's basically how I feel now. Jesus was a good man with innovative ideas but got overmystified stories told about him decades after his death. Everyone puts so much emphasis on the turning water into wine and ressurecting the dead. I want to haer more about how he changes the way people thought. I want to hear more about alduterous woman he saved from being stoned to death, how he challenged her accusers. There was a message there but it gets all overshadowed by all the mythical aspects of his story.

And SOAP, I'm kinda worried by the sentiments you're expressing... You wanna talk about some of your problems? I know that the collapse of a belief system can be devastating to some people. If you want to talk about it, I'm willing to listen.

It's just stress from school mostly.

I"ll answer this directly, as it deserves a response.

-snip-

I can understand the health benefits of letting something go but that still doesn't prove prayer has any power other than people feel vindicated when their prayer randomly gets answered. It's no different than simply just not worrying about something. You can say you're giving it up to a higher power if you want but ultimately it accomplishes the same thing as if you didn't believe in any higher power and just didn't think about it anymore.

I know that SOAP (and a few others here) believe Jesus is a real person, I do too. However, I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, which is the basis for Christianity. If I hear someone say "It's all BS" I'm assuming that goes with what the beliefs are, which causes one to assume that they're saying Jesus being the Son of God and dying for our sins is BS.

Wolf got it right, I never said Jesus was BS, just that your response was because I used to make the same excuses. In dfact made them very recently and all the time. I never thought of them as excuses until I had simmilar things told to me by my fellow Christians and I realized how such answers don't really help anything. In fact, it just made me even more pissed off because I felt like I wasn't being taken seriously. It's the same feeling you get when you stop believing in Santa Claus and your parents still keep telling ou to be a good kid or he won't give you any presents this year. It's very belittling.

Again, I'm not calling your beliefs BS. Just your response. I mean raelly, if God is so powerful, why do Christians have to make up excuses for him all the time. I'm sick of apolegtics, I was one far far too long.

I do however apologize for calling God an imaginary friend. Even though that's how I honestly feel. Right now I see no difference between God or Zeus or Thor or Ra other than God just seems be more appealing.

Edited by SOAP, 31 July 2007 - 03:29 PM.

[TheAvengerLever]

Sorry, SOAP. I, like Wolf said, misread or misinterpreted what you said.