220 replies to this topic

[BourgeoisJerry]

Even after the Hero of Time is sent back to his childhood, TWW, in the theoretical adult timeline, has the Triforce of Courage. Twilight Princess and other games, in the theoretical child timeline, has the Triforce of Courage.

If the Hero of Time no longer exist in the adult timeline because he went back to his childhood and changed the future, then the Triforce of Courage and the Master Sword would have to either be in one timeline or the other.

Or so I thought.

In Majora's Mask, your Hero's Shield can be stolen. If you play the Song of Time and travel back to Day 1, you will have your shield again. Theoretically, the same principle applies to the split timeline. Before getting sent back to the child timeline, Link gives Zelda the Ocarina of Time. Theoretically, he could leave the ToC and MS in the adult timeline, then when he arrives in the child timeline, he will have the ToC, MS, and OoT. That would theoretically "clone" the ToC and MS (and maybe the OoT if a future game in the adult timeline uses it), leaving one copy of each in each timeline.

Also in MM, Link can get a bow, go back in time to before he obtained the bow, and he will still have it. The same applies to the ToC in theory. Even if he is sent back before Ganondorf entered the SR and touched the Triforce, he would still have the ToC.

What is it that makes people think the Triforce of Courage or Master Sword actually went back in time with Link? Link didn't even bring back his own left hand, why would he bring back anything else? The way Marty McFly travels through time, the hover board would go with him. But when Kate Pryde-Rasputin was sent back into young Kitty Pryde's body she left behind everything that was in the future (sorry, can't think of any notable possessions.) Had young Kitty received a dragon necklace sometime before Kate entered her body, the necklace would remain with Kate in her body. If Kate had also received a dragon necklace at the same time young Kitty had, that necklace wouldn't have gone back in time with her, it would remain in the future with her body, but she would still be wearing it when she entered Kitty's body because Kitty was wearing it anyway. Throw in the Majora's Mask rule that allowed Link to have the Bow before he received it (which was now mysteriously missing from the chest) and Link can have the Triforce of Courage even before he received it in the past.

To reiterate, if Link's left hand doesn't go back in time with him, there's no reason to think that whatever was in his left hand would go back with him?

[Arturo]

Except that we actually SEE he has the Triforce of Courage in the ending, when he meets Zelda.

[coinilius]

Except that we actually SEE he has the Triforce of Courage in the ending, when he meets Zelda.

But if Link went back to after the Triforce had split, then the past him would already have it anyway. While the future ToC remains in the future, because it never did any time travelling at all, only Link's mind/spirit/soul/whatever travelled back and forwards, into the body that was in the past/future. See, that's what BourgeoisJerry was trying to get at with the Day's of Future's Past reference - Link's doesn't do any bodily time travel, it's his mind/spirit that travels backwards and forwards.

At least, that's what I took to be his meaning from the previous explanation.

[Vertiboy]

I know that we've established that a theory's problems don't neccisarily affect the theory's validity, so keep in mind that I'm not trying to start that debate again with this post.

There is another problem with the single timeline theory (where OoT->MM->TWW is not last) that I have had in my mind for a while that I haven't really thought about for a while. In the Japanese version of the Hero of Time legend, it says something along the lines that the HoT disappeared into the flows of time. In a single timeline, Link never disappears into the flows of time. I guess you could also say that the legend is not literal, but that would be an assumption. I could see how he would go into the flows of time if adult OoT just happened 7 years later, but as I have pointed out on another thread I started, there are many problems with that. If I remember correctly, it's "7 years later" - 8 problems; "erased/split" - 1 problem. I know that we've been through this before, but when a theory has that many problems compared to the alternatives, I think that we have a loser.

I guess this is the revised list.

Single Timeline
1. Is Ganondorf revived after TWW?
2. Is the Master Sword recovered after TWW?
3. Is the Triforce residcovered after TWW?
4. Is Hyrule refounded after TWW?
5. Is the Hero of Time legend wrong about the Triforce of Courage?
6. Is the Hero of Time legend wrong about the Hero disappearing into the flows of time?

Split Timeline (Problems Remain the Same)
1. Is the Legend of the Fairy not canon, or is there some explanation on how it explains events in the child timeline?
2. Is the Master Sword left behind in the adult timeline at the adult ending of OoT?
3. Is the Triforce of Courage left behind in the adult timeline at the adult ending of OoT?

When one theory has twice as many problems as another, I would think that it's a pretty good indicator of which one is true. That's just my opinion, though.

[BourgeoisJerry]

I know that we've established that a theory's problems don't neccisarily affect the theory's validity, so keep in mind that I'm not trying to start that debate again with this post.

The theory's problems can affect its validity, but it's impossible to measure how much the theory's validity is affected.

There is another problem with the single timeline theory (where OoT->MM->TWW is not last) that I have had in my mind for a while that I haven't really thought about for a while. In the Japanese version of the Hero of Time legend, it says something along the lines that the HoT disappeared into the flows of time. In a single timeline, Link never disappears into the flows of time. I guess you could also say that the legend is not literal, but that would be an assumption. I could see how he would go into the flows of time if adult OoT just happened 7 years later, but as I have pointed out on another thread I started, there are many problems with that. If I remember correctly, it's "7 years later" - 8 problems; "erased/split" - 1 problem. I know that we've been through this before, but when a theory has that many problems compared to the alternatives, I think that we have a loser.

Depends on the problems. Again, they can't be measured, so common sense would be your only argument against somebody saying the single timeline problems aren't that big. Personally, I'd say problems 2 and 3 are very minor problems (as in the explanation for those problems is easy to believe,) and would also be problems with a single timeline theory anyway. Problem 1 is slightly bigger, but still easy enough to explain away or ignore. Seriously though, quit making numerical lists of the problems and just look at each individual problem and make a guess as to how big of a problem it is. The amount of problems on a list don't mean much if one of the problems listed is something like "is Ganon messing with Link's head when he calls him the Hero of Time reborn?"

[spunky-monkey]

Split Timeline (Problems Remain the Same)
1. Is the Legend of the Fairy not canon, or is there some explanation on how it explains events in the child timeline?

They screwed up.

2. Is the Master Sword left behind in the adult timeline at the adult ending of OoT?

Hard to answer because people just don't know how real-world time travel operates, let alone its workings in this fictional universe. If we're dealing with the split timeline theory then we must assume everything (including the Triforce) was duplicated.

3. Is the Triforce of Courage left behind in the adult timeline at the adult ending of OoT?

Each timeline has their own ToC. The Hero of Time split his into 8 shards then left for his original time, however OoT ending shows he has the Triforce of Courage in the Castle Courtyard meeting with Zelda.

Ganondorf possesses the Triforce of Power in TP thanks to the divine prank so the CT Triforce must have separated all on its own, explaining how young Link received his respective part in OoT.

Edited by Ricky, 29 January 2007 - 08:02 AM.

[Mgoblue201]

Is that true, about the Hero of Time legend in Japanese where he disappears into the flow of time? I've heard that before, but I've never heard that attributed to the Japanese version. I knew that wasn't in the American, so I assumed that it wasn't true. Then what does it say about the "journey" the Hero of Time supposedly went on?

[SOAP]

I believe it's in the Hylian text in the opening sequence.

[Arturo]

Indeed.

[Mgoblue201]

Yeah, I read it in the TP forum minutes after I made that post. I'm gonna have to check it out for myself.

[Evilsbane]

Hard to answer because people just don't know how real-world time travel operates, let alone its workings in this fictional universe. If we're dealing with the split timeline theory then we must assume everything (including the Triforce) was duplicated.
Each timeline has their own ToC. The Hero of Time split his into 8 shards then left for his original time, however OoT ending shows he has the Triforce of Courage in the Castle Courtyard meeting with Zelda.

Ganondorf possesses the Triforce of Power in TP thanks to the divine prank so the CT Triforce must have separated all on its own, explaining how young Link received his respective part in OoT.

This is what I also believe.