17 replies to this topic

[Raien]

One thing I have read about perception of the timeline here is that TWW is incompatible with ALTTP because both games follow as sequels to OoT but apparently TWW can't be a prequel to ALTTP. Not only will I explain why this is wrong but also to explain why the OoT-ALTTP connection is totally inconsistent without TWW.

It all begins with a simple question. Who knows the location of the Triforce in OoT? This is simple; the Royal Family have handed this knowledge down from generation to generation.

I'm going to tell you the secret of the Sacred Realm that has been passed down by the Royal Family of Hyrule. Please keep this a secret from everyone... [...] That's right... The Temple of Time is the entrance through which you can enter the Sacred Realm from our world. But the entrance is sealed with a stone wall called the Door of Time. And, in order to open the door, it is said that you need to collect three Spiritual Stones. And another thing you need...is the treasure that the Royal Family keeps along with this legend... The Ocarina of Time!

So do the Royal Family maintain this knowledge even towards ALTTP? Nope.

...the Triforce grants the wish of the one who touched it. As long as that person is alive... That, surely, is why it was placed in the sacred land, and its location passed down only among those chosen. However, it looks as though that was interrupted somewhere... Then, the one who again discovered the sacred land was the thief called Ganondorf.

So in order for OoT to lead into ALTTP, we need an event that can establish the loss of the knowledge of the Sacred Realm. Without speculation, we have such an event; TWW's Great Flood. The Great Flood was the event that "interrupted" the knowledge of the location of the Sacred Realm that had been handed down by Hyrule's Royal Family. Of course, there is evidence that the Great Flood was responsible for much more than this.

Hyrule, where many Hylian relics have been left, is an area very much tied to myth. One such example is an old saying about the Triforce. "The golden power lies somewhere descended from the heavens. He who claims it as his own shall have their desires granted by the gods." The people, seeking the Golden Power, began searching for the Sacred Realm. Many reports began to surface; lying beneath the relics of the desert, inside the graves of the race of people in the high mountains, but no one ever found it.

The general implication from this text is that Hylian civilisation had died out long before the events of the SW, leaving only relics and myths as to explain Hyrule's history. The term "golden power" for example was never used by the people in OoT. In fact, the true name of the Triforce was only revealed in ALTTP when the Sages' Seal was broken and the transformation of the Sacred Realm by Ganon had been revealed to all. Furthermore, the people in OoT did not need to search all of Hyrule for the entrance to the Sacred Realm because legends of the entrance had indeed passed to them.

Do you know about the Temple of Time that we have in the northeast part of town? Legends say that the Temple of Time is the entrance to the Sacred Realm... Did you know that?

Legends say that the Temple of Time is the entrance to the Sacred Realm...

Then there is Hyrule's geography. TWW's Great Deku Tree explains to us how the land of Hyrule can be raised up from below the waves by connecting all the islands as one where human civilisation can rebuild itself.

Every year after the Koroks perform this ceremony, they fly off to the distant islands on the sea and plant my seeds in the hopes that new forests will grow. Forests hold great power--they can change one tiny island into a much larger island. Soon, a day will come when all the islands are one, connected by earth and grove. And the people who live on that great island will be able to join hands and, together, create a better world. Such is my dream. ...But the one you are chasing is trying to prevent that dream from ever coming to pass.

Link... Already, your fate is tied to the fate of this world. You must proceed with great care.

Ganondorf appears to confirm this when he tells us that the Gods intentionally left people to awaken Hyrule (not find a new land).

What did the King of Hyrule say? ...That the gods sealed Hyrule away? And they left behind people who would one day awaken Hyrule?!

Now in the backdrop of the Palace of Winds in TMC, we can see two islands below.



This begins a definite continuity that shows Hyrule physically expanding from below the Great Sea. As time goes by, Hyrule expands and connects with other islands to form larger islands.

-TMC shows Hyrule as a small area of land, with other islands around it.
-FSA shows Hyrule as a larger island.
-ALTTP shows Hyrule as FSA's map but with mountains instead of sea borders.
-AoL shows Hyrule as part of a much larger land-mass, Calatia.

Finally, there is the FS saga itself. Have you ever wondered why the Triforce or the Sacred Realm have never enterred the storylines of the games; why Vaati and Ganon never sought to take the ultimate power when they had the opportunity to? This distinctive detail connects with the fact that after the Great Flood, no one knew where it was or or exactly what it was. The SW scripts labels the finding of the Triforce as an accident; the Sacred Realm was stumbled upon by Ganondorf and his group of thieves. After this event, such understandings became known to the Sages and the Royal Family. This is not to suggest that FSA leads into ALTTP, because I don't think it does. However, the events are explainable when positioned between TWW and ALTTP.

Edited by jhurvid, 16 November 2006 - 05:18 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

Finally, there is the FS saga itself. Have you ever wondered why the Triforce or the Sacred Realm have never enterred the storylines of the games; why Vaati and Ganon never sought to take the ultimate power when they had the opportunity to? This distinctive detail connects with the fact that after the Great Flood, no one knew where it was or or exactly what it was. The SW scripts labels the finding of the Triforce as an accident; the Sacred Realm was stumbled upon by Ganondorf and his group of thieves. After this event, such understandings became known to the Sages and the Royal Family. This is not to suggest that FSA leads into ALTTP, because I don't think it does. However, the events are explainable when positioned between TWW and ALTTP.

In that case, when would you assume this accidental finding happens? Sometime between FSA and ALttP? That would require for Ganon to first break free of the Four Sword. And it doesn't look like the Gerudo are his followers anymore by FSA.
Also the FS games may not deal with the Sacred Realm (and it's not 100% sure TMC doesn't), but FSA certainly does deal with the Dark World (and I would hope no one will attempt to deny that the two are one and the same).

[LionHarted]

Also the FS games may not deal with the Sacred Realm (and it's not 100% sure TMC doesn't), but FSA certainly does deal with the Dark World (and I would hope no one will attempt to deny that the two are one and the same).

The Dark World can and does exist independently of the Sacred Realm throughout the course of the series. We hear of it in both the Oracles games and AoL, neither of which feature the Sacred Realm. In fact, the Oracles titles describe the attempted transformation of Holodrum and Labrynna into "worlds of darkness" as "spreading the Dark Realm's reach". Given this precedent, we can assume that all transformations of varying worlds/lands into "worlds of darkness" involve "spreading the Dark Realm's reach", including the transformation of the Sacred Realm.

That being said, I see no reason for the Dark World in FSA to be connected to the Sacred Realm, especially given Ganon's untimely death in TWW (remember that the Dark World is supposed to vanish from the Sacred Realm when Ganon is killed, so it should vanish at the end of TWW).

In that case, when would you assume this accidental finding happens? Sometime between FSA and ALttP? That would require for Ganon to first break free of the Four Sword. And it doesn't look like the Gerudo are his followers anymore by FSA.

In order for any game to take place after FSA, Ganon must break free of the Four Sword. The fact that he is sealed instead of killed in the end of FSA seems to suggest that he will eventually break free. Given the imagery we see surrounding the breaking of seals throughout the rest of the series, I would wager that the catastrophes that appear before Agahnim's appearance might be indicative of his escape from the sword.

Recall that, at the end of FSA, the Dark World portals seem to have vanished. This is likely due to the sealing power of the Maidens--they would certainly not have left these portals of darkness open. The portals were probably closed as or after you destroy the barriers of darkness at the end of each area. I would wager that these portals are the "magic portals" spoken of during ALttP as having been sealed.

After escaping from the sword, I would also guess he "rediscovered" the Sacred Realm, at which point he entered it and laid his hands on the Triforce, merging the Sacred Realm and the Dark World. Since he's merged the sealed Dark World, with the Sacred Realm, he's effectively transferred the seal to the Sacred Realm, and is "unable to return to the World of Light", as ALttP would have it. Then he would have created the alter-ego, Agahnim, to try to break the seal using the Maiden descendants, and ALttP would begin.

Edited by LionHarted, 21 October 2006 - 09:58 PM.

[Showsni]

The Dark World is not an independent dimension. It is merely the name used for when the Sacred Realm was taken over by evil - and, as you point out, also used for when the normal world would have been taken over by evil in Oracles. Any location could be the Dark World - but it's normally the saxcred realm. FSA definitely involves the SR. It's an alternate dimension that mirrors Hyrule - the SR is the only one that exists. Whether it is strictly "dark" or not in FSA is unknown. And why shouldn't AoL/Oracles involve the SR as the Dark World? They mention teh Dark World as being where Ganon's underlings are coming from; that is, they're coming from the tainted SR.

[LionHarted]

The Dark World is not an independent dimension.

Says... you?

It is merely the name used for when the Sacred Realm was taken over by evil - and, as you point out, also used for when the normal world would have been taken over by evil in Oracles. Any location could be the Dark World - but it's normally the saxcred realm.

The "taking over of the world by evil" is called, in the Oracles, the "spread" of that Dark World. We can guess that this is the case in ALttP/OoT as well with the Sacred Realm.

FSA definitely involves the SR. It's an alternate dimension that mirrors Hyrule - the SR is the only one that exists.

Wrong. See Termina, the world of spirits, and the gap between dimensions. Either way, making the FSA Dark World the SR actually supports my theory of him being trapped there because the portals are sealed.

And why shouldn't AoL/Oracles involve the SR as the Dark World?

"However, now that Ganon, who touched the Triforce, has fallen, the World of Darkness shall disappear as well." Not "should", not "might"--"shall."

Edited by LionHarted, 22 October 2006 - 11:14 AM.

[Showsni]

The "taking over of the world by evil" is called, in the Oracles, the "spread" of that Dark World. We can guess that this is the case in ALttP/OoT as well with the Sacred Realm.

Didn't I agree with you there?

Wrong. See Termina, the world of spirits, and the gap between dimensions. Either way, making the FSA Dark World the SR actually supports my theory of him being trapped there because the portals are sealed.

Mirrors as in is nearly exactly the same. Termina is very different to Hyrule, despite the doubles. The world os spirits (Mekai) is a name for teh Dark World, as used by Zelda in OoT. The gap between dimensions doesn't necessarily mirror Hyrule exactly, but I suppose it's possible that it is what appears in FSA. The one in FSA does seem closer to Hyrule than the SR, as the space between the dimensions might. And I didn't actually argue against your theory. The Sacred Realm's seal is always a one way thing, (see ALttP), so there's nothing stopping Ganon entering it and then being unable to return after it's already been sealed.

"However, now that Ganon, who touched the Triforce, has fallen, the World of Darkness shall disappear as well." Not "should", not "might"--"shall."

That's not to say it can't be reformed, though.

[Raien]

It can be argued that LoZ shows the SR as the Dark World because Ganon is alive in that game.

As for AoL's Dark World, it can be argued that because the powers of darkness linger long after Ganon's death, that the Dark World also lingered in Hyrule before it actually disappeared as the Essence of the Triforce stated in ALTTP. Either that or it is a reflection of the real Dark World.

[MikePetersSucks]

Yea, but the Sacred Realm is never accessed, and it takes more than Ganon being alive to corrupt it. He has to atleast visit it.

[Raien]

Yea, but the Sacred Realm is never accessed, and it takes more than Ganon being alive to corrupt it. He has to atleast visit it.

One theory is that the Sacred Realm's ability to reflect the heart of darkness allows Ganon to consume it with the Dark World. Such a function does not exist in Hyrule so Ganon needs to consume it manually, as we see him try to do in FSA.

[MikePetersSucks]

Yes, but tis only a theory, when the game, hell, the Triforce itself, heavily implies it was Ganon's wish that corrupted the Sacred Realm. Furthermore, the FSA Dark World doesn't seem really dark at all, and I doubt it's related to the one in LTTP.

[Raien]

Yes, but tis only a theory, when the game, hell, the Triforce itself, heavily implies it was Ganon's wish that corrupted the Sacred Realm. Furthermore, the FSA Dark World doesn't seem really dark at all, and I doubt it's related to the one in LTTP.

It does imply that it was a wish, but then it also implied that Ganon's evil heart transformed the Sacred Realm. "The Sacred Realm reflects the heart of the one who enters it." OoT explains that the heart of the one who enters the Sacred Realm is directly connected to the wish that his granted to him/her by the Triforce.

The power to grant the wish of the one who holds the Triforce in his hands. If someone with a righteous heart makes a wish, it will lead Hyrule to a golden age of prosperity... If someone with an evil mind has his wish granted, the world will be consumed by evil...That is what has been told...

The Sacred Realm transformed to reflect Ganon's wish because the wish was granted by Ganon's evil heart. The wish itself changed Hyrule but the power of that wish (the power of Ganon's heart) transformed the Sacred Realm.

[LionHarted]

Evil wishes come from evil hearts. OoT basically attributes what ALttP calls the effects of the Golden Power to the role of the Golden Land as a "mirror that reflects the heart." It is possible that because the Golden Land is closely linked to the Triforce, however, this "reflection" role comes from the power of the Triforce itself, or manifests when someone tries to touch the Triforce.

[MikePetersSucks]

It does imply that it was a wish, but then it also implied that Ganon's evil heart transformed the Sacred Realm. "The Sacred Realm reflects the heart of the one who enters it." OoT explains that the heart of the one who enters the Sacred Realm is directly connected to the wish that his granted to him/her by the Triforce.

That quote can be interpretted several ways. For all we know, it means "The properties of the Sacred Realm shall reflect one's heart, revealing their true nature" Ala the victims of the Dark World. Otherwise you have a problem if two or more people are in the Sacred Realm.

The Sacred Realm transformed to reflect Ganon's wish because the wish was granted by Ganon's evil heart. The wish itself changed Hyrule but the power of that wish (the power of Ganon's heart) transformed the Sacred Realm.

Actually, the wish was granted by the TRIFORCE, which acted upon that ambition to warp the Sacred Realm, but let's not split straws.

[Paviel]

Ganon's wish was to rule the universe, if I'm remembering the quote from that tree in aLttP correctly. The Triforce responded to that wish by turning the Sacred Realm into the Dark World, over which Ganon was sovereign.

Pardon the derailment, but isn't it odd that there was no desert in the Dark World? Where the desert was in Hyrule, there was a swamp in the Dark World. A swamp that was constantly being fed by rain, until Link used Ether to stop it.

Maybe it's just a coincidence that Ganon came from the desert, according to OoT...

[Duke Serkol]

It can be argued that LoZ shows the SR as the Dark World because Ganon is alive in that game.

Hold it a sec... the Sacred Realm/Dark World in LoZ? I thought the Dark World was first mentioned in AoL's manual (to only become actually relevant in ALttP)

[LionHarted]

Pardon the derailment, but isn't it odd that there was no desert in the Dark World? Where the desert was in Hyrule, there was a swamp in the Dark World. A swamp that was constantly being fed by rain, until Link used Ether to stop it.

Maybe it's just a coincidence that Ganon came from the desert, according to OoT...

Or maybe TWW decided to take advantage of that by introducing the transformation of the desert as one of Ganon's potential goals: "My country lay within a vast desert. When the sun rose into the sky, a burning wind punished my lands, searing the world. And when the moon climbed into the dark of night, a frigid gale pierced our homes. No matter when it came, the wind carried the same thing... Death. But the winds that blew across the green fields of Hyrule brough something other than suffering and ruin. I coveted that wind, I suppose." If Ganon's goal were truly to turn Hyrule into a complete World of Darkness, the desert would receive rain, apparently, as we see that it does in ALttP.

Edited by LionHarted, 25 October 2006 - 09:38 AM.

[Chaltab]

Or maybe TWW decided to take advantage of that by introducing the transformation of the desert as one of Ganon's potential goals: "My country lay within a vast desert. When the sun rose into the sky, a burning wind punished my lands, searing the world. And when the moon climbed into the dark of night, a frigid gale pierced our homes. No matter when it came, the wind carried the same thing... Death. But the winds that blew across the green fields of Hyrule brough something other than suffering and ruin. I coveted that wind, I suppose." If Ganon's goal were truly to turn Hyrule into a complete World of Darkness, the desert would receive rain, apparently, as we see that it does in ALttP.

That's a very good point, actually.

Anyway... Unless my signature has been deleted in the months I've been gone, it has my timeline theory if you're interested. I definitely agree with the original premise of this thread--the Flood is essential to explaning the vast differences between the world of Ocarina of Time and the world of A Link to the Past, including the forgotten Hylian Language and mangled legends.

[Raien]

Just bumping this topic as some theorists seem to be enquiring now how TWW connects to ALTTP. I've also added a new quote that another theorist provided to support this evidence.