83 replies to this topic

[bjamez7573]

Well, I've been browsing through these forums and looking at some of debates on the various Zelda timeline placements and theories. One thing I've noticed on these forums is that the Sleeping Zelda theory is generally believed to be retconned (or parts of it), regardless of the timeline. Also, OOT is usually placed first (or second after TMC).

So what's my point? If you place LOZ/AOL before OOT, There is no need for the Sleeping Zelda theory to be retconned. So this means that OOT would not be the first game to have Ganon in it.

So here is a question for you all: What evidence is there to show that OOT has to be first in the entire timeline?

Yes, I am aware of Miyamoto's comment on the timeline in 1998, and seeing the problems with that quote already, it doesn't really count as evidence that OOT comes first. OOT does tell the origins of Ganondorf, but only for the games with that same Ganondorf (i.e. WW and TP. This doesn't necessarily mean that that plot arc has to be before all of the other games (except TMC for some). I tried looking for any creator quotes that would suggest this, but I haven't come across any. Since I am relatively new to timeline theorizing, it is likely I missed some so if anyone knows any, I'd like to know. There doesn't seem to be any in game evidence to suggest this.

But on to the second part: Placing LOZ/AOL before ALTTP. Yes, I've heard all of the evidence of ALTTP being a prequel to the NES games. What in game evidence is there to support such a connection? Not much. So far, all I've seen is the back of the box stating it, and various other hints showing creator intent for ALTTP to be before them.

However, we have to realize something about their intent: it is OLD. When they intended this, they also were not overly concerned about consistency and overall timeline. It wasn't until after OOT that Eiji Aonuma decided to take the overall storyline and timeline more seriously, and he took it into a new direction to try to make the games more consistent (at least to some extent).

In my view, explicit manual evidence of the sleeping zelda theory and the fact that has to be near the first in the timeline (not necessarily very first, it can be after TMC) to work without contradiction trumps old creator intent of ALTTP being a prequel.

There is, however, one large assumption in this: there has to be another Ganon for it to work. But, is it so unreasonable? Not much is known about LOZ's Ganon and we don't even know if that Ganon is a Gerudo, at least when it comes to in-game or manual evidence. It is also conceivable, since this Ganon might possess the trident, that he is the "ancient demon reborn" as heard of in FSA.

I also have a couple of other small points that would make this work:

1) In WW, when the King of Red Lions is telling Tetra about her origins, he states that she is Zelda, rather than stating her as just a descendant. If the Sleeping zelda theory was meant to be retconned, why is it stated she is Zelda (as in, it is her name)? To me this indicates that was to reflect the naming tradition in the Sleeping zelda theory, which would have to be placed before WW for this to happen.

2) at the end of AOL, Link brings the whole Triforce together. This seems to lead nicely into OOT as Triforce would be placed back into the Sacred Realm and the ToT would be created to protect the entrance. Since using the Triforce to rule left it vulnerable to be taken and abused (as what happened when Ganon in LOZ came and stole the Triforce of Power), it seems like they would learn from their mistake and put the Triforce back where it belonged and protect it. In OOT, protecting the Triforce is precisely what the Royal Family and different races are doing with ToT, 3 spiritual stones and the Ocarina of Time.

Just so you know, here is what I think the timeline should be:

-----TMC
-----LOZ
-----AOL
-----OOX?
-----OOT
Child-----Adult
MM--------WW
TP--------PH
FSA
ALTTP
OOX?

Placing the NES games before OOT seems to make the most sense to me as it preserves the original sleeping zelda theory. However, there might have been evidence that I missed.

So any thoughts on this or evidence to add?

[Person]

In OoT, the Triforce is in the Sacred Realm. In LoZ and AoL, it's outside of it. In the Sleeping Zelda story, the Triforce is out of the Sacred Realm and is being used by the king. Because OoT is the first time the Sacred Realm is opened, it has to be the first game to feature the Triforce. And Eiji Aonuma recently stated that AoL happens after OoT. As recently as December 2008.

The Sleeping Zelda story was not retconned out of continuity, but the fact that it was supposed to be the first Zelda in the lineage was. In the GBA rerelease of AoL, the backstory provided there is identical to the one in the NES manual, except that the "first generation Princess Zelda" description was cut out.

[Erimgard]

^
Source?
Someone at ZU bought the Japanese GBA version and has his friend (who is fluent in Japanese, but doesn't know much about Zelda, and thus, is not biased) translate it, and he said it was almost identical to the original SNES manaul. Including the "shodai" or "first generation" description.

[Person]

^
Source?
Someone at ZU bought the Japanese GBA version and has his friend (who is fluent in Japanese, but doesn't know much about Zelda, and thus, is not biased) translate it, and he said it was almost identical to the original SNES manaul. Including the "shodai" or "first generation" description.

I don't know about the Japanese version, but the US version doesn't have that line. Of course, I probably shouldn't be trusting NoA, since they for a while seemed to think that the sleeping Zelda and the Zelda from AoL were the same person and that the wizard just showed up in betweent he two games. But putting it before OoT still creates more problems than it solves. Not the least of these is that Eiji Aonuma said that AoL goes after OoT as recently as 2008.

[Erimgard]

I just double checked...the NoA manual never stated she was the first Zelda. It was always Japan-exclusive.
But I agree, LoZ/AoL do not belong pre-OoT.

[SOAP]

Whether LoZ does belongs pre-OoT or not, I don't recall anything in OoT saying that was the first time the Sacred Realm was opened. In fact it had to have been opened at one point because Rauru was already in there and I doubt he was born there. Also the Temple of Time was built to protect the entrance. Why seal up an entrance that has never been opened? I would say that no one has been into the Sacred Realm SINCE the Temple of Time was built, but prior to that, who knows?

[MikePetersSucks]

It doesn't work. In LOZ/AOL, Hyrule is in immense decline, true-blooded Hylians seem all but extinct, everyone is living in caves and crappy shacks, magic is fairly rare and impotent compared to other games, and it seems that the origins of the Triforce, hell, even the existence of the Triforce of Courage, have been lost to time. Then suddenly, everything is prospering and the Hylian blood is somehow starting to come back but still be dwindling, and everyone remembers the origins of the Triforce but not where it is or anything because it's in the Sacred Realm, and everyone references a war and a Seal and Sages that haven't happened yet, then in the future, in OOT, the country is fairly new, the Hylian blood is at it's strongest, and...the war happens.

Sleeping Zelda can't come first or it ruins every other aspect of the timeline. It's been retconned by necessity, get over it.

[Showsni]

It doesn't work. In LOZ/AOL, Hyrule is in immense decline, true-blooded Hylians seem all but extinct, everyone is living in caves and crappy shacks, magic is fairly rare and impotent compared to other games, and it seems that the origins of the Triforce, hell, even the existence of the Triforce of Courage, have been lost to time.

Have you played AoL? If anything, this is the game where we see the most magic and true blooded Hylians. LoZ, sure, people are living in caves and we don't meet many of them; but in AoL, there are flourishing towns of people, and magic is probably the most widespread we've ever seen it.

As you can see from my timeline, I don't place OoT first; far from it. Indeed, in OoT the SR must have been opened previously; whereas in ALttP's backstory, it does look like that's the first time the SR has been opened. As such, we do have to keep an ALttP prequel to LoZ and AoL. The IW is the first time the SR is opened, and that leads straight to ALttP. Here Link removes the triforce from the SR, and the stage is set for the Sleeping Zelda story. Whilst it is impossible to make the Sleeping Zelda the first one, we can do the best we can and put it very shortly after ALttP, with SZ named after ALttP Zelda.

[SOAP]

I used to be a staunch "Sleeping Zelda is first" defender. It's impossible to reconcile the descrepencies it creates though, regardless if OoT comes first or whatever. Nowadays I just inerepret the Zelda naming tradition as a name given to all females born in the royal household, regardless if they were a direct decendant or a "Princess of Destiny" like all the other Zeldas in past Zelda games. The ironic thing would be taht the very first Zelda we're introduced to in the Original Loz may not be a true Zelda but just some random girl in the royal family who gets named Zelda because of tradition rather than destiny.

Edit: Though she did shatter the ToW so maybe she's a PoD anyways.

Edited by SOAP, 22 June 2009 - 05:19 PM.

[Person]

It doesn't work. In LOZ/AOL, Hyrule is in immense decline, true-blooded Hylians seem all but extinct, everyone is living in caves and crappy shacks, magic is fairly rare and impotent compared to other games, and it seems that the origins of the Triforce, hell, even the existence of the Triforce of Courage, have been lost to time.

Have you played AoL? If anything, this is the game where we see the most magic and true blooded Hylians. LoZ, sure, people are living in caves and we don't meet many of them; but in AoL, there are flourishing towns of people, and magic is probably the most widespread we've ever seen it.

As you can see from my timeline, I don't place OoT first; far from it. Indeed, in OoT the SR must have been opened previously; whereas in ALttP's backstory, it does look like that's the first time the SR has been opened. As such, we do have to keep an ALttP prequel to LoZ and AoL. The IW is the first time the SR is opened, and that leads straight to ALttP. Here Link removes the triforce from the SR, and the stage is set for the Sleeping Zelda story. Whilst it is impossible to make the Sleeping Zelda the first one, we can do the best we can and put it very shortly after ALttP, with SZ named after ALttP Zelda.

ALttP makes note of how Hylian blood is thinning. By the time of AoL, they're almost all gone. And the vast network of towns is in North Hyrule, while the rest of the games happen in South Hyrule, which is a featureless wasteland in AoL.

[bjamez7573]

Of course, I probably shouldn't be trusting NoA, since they for a while seemed to think that the sleeping Zelda and the Zelda from AoL were the same person and that the wizard just showed up in betweent he two games. But putting it before OoT still creates more problems than it solves. Not the least of these is that Eiji Aonuma said that AoL goes after OoT as recently as 2008.

Yeah, in the original AOL English manual, "first generation" isn't mentioned either. Does this statement from Eiji Aonuma come from the interview in Nintendo Power? I saw this post by Lex showing this article:

I know this probably doesn't affect what most of you think, but I personally was excited to see the story ideas set back in 1998 reappear in a developer interview today. The direct quote from the interview is shown below:

"Each of the races has a character fated to become one of the sages later on. We named them after towns in The Adventure of Link so it would appear that the towns had been named after them. (In the world of Zelda, the events of Ocarina of Time occur before the events of The Adventure of Link)."

http://i34.tinypic.com/55jqmv.jpg

Is this the one?

Because OoT is the first time the Sacred Realm is opened

How do you know it was the first time ever in the timeline?

It doesn't work. In LOZ/AOL, Hyrule is in immense decline,

How is this a problem? Remember in OOT that before the king unified this country, there was a great war. It sounds to me like pre-OOT was an age of chaos (Divided races can very likely cause massive conflicts) - which fits perfectly with LOZ/AOL coming before it.

true-blooded Hylians seem all but extinct,

ALttP makes note of how Hylian blood is thinning. By the time of AoL, they're almost all gone. And the vast network of towns is in North Hyrule, while the rest of the games happen in South Hyrule, which is a featureless wasteland in AoL.

To both of you: How do you know this about hylians in LOZ and AOL? Yes, if you assumed ALTTP came before AOL you could make that inference, but actual in game or manual evidence from LOZ or AOL doesn't say anything about it.

everyone is living in caves and crappy shacks

Why is this a problem? To me its very conceivable that during this age of chaos the people would be less prosperous than when the King finally unifies the country and the races of Hyrule work together.

magic is fairly rare and impotent compared to other games

In both games magic is used. Yes even LOZ (remember the magic rod?). In AOL, magic was a critical part of the story and gameplay. What evidence indicates that it was rare?

and it seems that the origins of the Triforce, hell, even the existence of the Triforce of Courage, have been lost to time.

Do you mean from AOL to OOT? Maybe the common folk didn't know where it was, but the Royal family knew exactly where it was in OOT. The ToT was built to protect the entrance, so the knowledge of where it was would not have been lost between AOL and OOT.

whereas in ALttP's backstory, it does look like that's the first time the SR has been opened. As such, we do have to keep an ALttP prequel to LoZ and AoL. The IW is the first time the SR is opened, and that leads straight to ALttP.

I don't recall the backstory saying it was the first time ever that it was opened.

These buildings, which now lie in ruin, pale shadows of their former splendor, are closely tied to the Triforce. Some were even said to house the Triforce......Many aggressively searched for the wish-granting Triforce, but no one, not even the Hylian sages, was sure of its location; the knowledge had been lost over time.

This seems to show that the Triforce was found before that era. How could the knowledge be lost if no one knew where it was in the first place?

Edited by bjamez7573, 22 June 2009 - 08:21 PM.

[Person]

There are several basic problems with putting LoZ and AoL before OoT.

1. ALttP was supposed to be the prequel to the NES games. This is made explicit in both the Japanese and English boxes. The backstory told in the manual tells the origins of Ganon, the Triforce, and the Master Sword.
2. ALttP seems to take place after a period of decline in the Hylian race. The game makes not of how the bloodline is thinning. Because this game happens before LoZ, we can thus infer than almost no full-blooded Hylians exist.
3. When OoT came out, numerous developer statements indicated it was first, and was supposed to lead into ALttP.
4. As recently as 2008, Eiji Aonuma said that AoL happens after OoT.

As for the Temple of Time, remember the backstory from TP? Maybe it was constructed to keep people out of the Sacred Realm because of what the Twili tried to do? We have no evidence to assume that a king ruled using the Triforce before OoT.

[MikePetersSucks]

Have you played AoL? If anything, this is the game where we see the most magic and true blooded Hylians. LoZ, sure, people are living in caves and we don't meet many of them; but in AoL, there are flourishing towns of people, and magic is probably the most widespread we've ever seen it.

I already mentioned AoL's towns. They're kind've shabby, but I'm willing to excuse that to inferiority of the engine

As for magic, it's being cast and/or taught by human wizards and are pretty paltry, or it's ancient magic from a long ass time ago that Link is causing to awaken in accordance with a prophetic spell. Sleeping Zelda and all.

There's almost no true-blooded Hylians though. Zelda's and Link's ears are both round, that's pretty much always been the indicator for the entire country at large.

As you can see from my timeline, I don't place OoT first; far from it. Indeed, in OoT the SR must have been opened previously; whereas in ALttP's backstory, it does look like that's the first time the SR has been opened. As such, we do have to keep an ALttP prequel to LoZ and AoL. The IW is the first time the SR is opened, and that leads straight to ALttP. Here Link removes the triforce from the SR, and the stage is set for the Sleeping Zelda story. Whilst it is impossible to make the Sleeping Zelda the first one, we can do the best we can and put it very shortly after ALttP, with SZ named after ALttP Zelda.

Just because the Sacred Realm was open doesn't mean that someone got in to get the Triforce. According to LTTP under your interpretation, the Sacred Realm was technically open since the Creation, and I'm sure the Imprisoning War didn't happen in the first decade or so of existence.

How is this a problem? Remember in OOT that before the king unified this country, there was a great war. It sounds to me like pre-OOT was an age of chaos (Divided races can very likely cause massive conflicts) - which fits perfectly with LOZ/AOL coming before it.

Except LOZ/AOL Hyrule isn't rife with war (Take out Ganon, and everyone's peaceful) and according to Impa, long ago Hyrule was "one country" ruled by a king who had the Triforce. Doesn't work.

To both of you: How do you know this about hylians in LOZ and AOL? Yes, if you assumed ALTTP came before AOL you could make that inference, but actual in game or manual evidence from LOZ or AOL doesn't say anything about it.

If the manual art is any indication, everyone but Impa (or maybe she does too, can't remember) has ROUND EARS.

In both games magic is used. Yes even LOZ (remember the magic rod?). In AOL, magic was a critical part of the story and gameplay. What evidence indicates that it was rare?

I didn't say it was completely almost gone, it's just rare compared to what it used to. Magic is treated as a much bigger deal for much smaller feats, and the greatest magic is ancient magic reawakened from an earlier era.

Do you mean from AOL to OOT? Maybe the common folk didn't know where it was, but the Royal family knew exactly where it was in OOT. The ToT was built to protect the entrance, so the knowledge of where it was would not have been lost between AOL and OOT.

No, from wherever to AOL.

[Average Gamer]

There's almost no true-blooded Hylians though. Zelda's and Link's ears are both round, that's pretty much always been the indicator for the entire country at large.

The ears of Link, Zelda, and Impa actually do have points in the LoZ/AoL art, but they're distinctly less pointy than they are in the AlttP, OoT, etc. concept art. Hylian blood does seem to have basically faded away by the time of LoZ/AoL and possibly even during the Great King's reign, judging from his ears.

[bjamez7573]

There are several basic problems with putting LoZ and AoL before OoT.

1. ALttP was supposed to be the prequel to the NES games. This is made explicit in both the Japanese and English boxes. The backstory told in the manual tells the origins of Ganon, the Triforce, and the Master Sword.
2. ALttP seems to take place after a period of decline in the Hylian race. The game makes not of how the bloodline is thinning. Because this game happens before LoZ, we can thus infer than almost no full-blooded Hylians exist.
3. When OoT came out, numerous developer statements indicated it was first, and was supposed to lead into ALttP.

Yes, I agree that ALTTP was a originally designed to be a prequel. However, the back of the boxes and the creator quotes indicating that it was a prequel are old and are really the only thing that causes the "first generation sleeping zelda story" to be retconned as was originally told. Normally, I would consider newer intent to possibly retcon certain aspects of older games. However, when they made this intent, they are were just trying to make a connection between the games without thinking about keeping things consistent. Don't forget that OOT was supposed to be the seal war at the time ALTTP was intended to be a prequel to LOZ/AOL. Newer game evidence retconned OOT's seal war intention because Eiji Anouma took the timeline in a new direction. The fact that he is taking it in a new direction makes me think that game evidence from LOZ/AOL takes priority over old creator quotes and box text (Before Anouma took the timeline more seriously).

4. As recently as 2008, Eiji Aonuma said that AoL happens after OoT.

Could you give me the source or at least tell me the exact words of the interview? It may have been that he was talking about what they intended back then, not where they would be placed now.

As for the Temple of Time, remember the backstory from TP? Maybe it was constructed to keep people out of the Sacred Realm because of what the Twili tried to do? We have no evidence to assume that a king ruled using the Triforce before OoT.

Yes, that's certainly possible, but there is also no evidence to suggest that a king didn't rule using the Triforce. All I was saying was not that that could be used as evidence, but that a LOZ/AOL placed pre-OOT would not conflict in terms of the Triforce. The evidence I use for that placement is the sleeping zelda story itself.

Have you played AoL? If anything, this is the game where we see the most magic and true blooded Hylians. LoZ, sure, people are living in caves and we don't meet many of them; but in AoL, there are flourishing towns of people, and magic is probably the most widespread we've ever seen it.

I already mentioned AoL's towns. They're kind've shabby, but I'm willing to excuse that to inferiority of the engine

As for magic, it's being cast and/or taught by human wizards and are pretty paltry, or it's ancient magic from a long ass time ago that Link is causing to awaken in accordance with a prophetic spell. Sleeping Zelda and all.......
...............................................................
I didn't say it was completely almost gone, it's just rare compared to what it used to. Magic is treated as a much bigger deal for much smaller feats, and the greatest magic is ancient magic reawakened from an earlier era.

I don't see how it is much rarer in than in any other game. Could you provide examples? What ancient magic was reawakened in AOL? As far as sleeping Zelda is concerned, the only thing needed was the whole Triforce.

To both of you: How do you know this about Hylians in LOZ and AOL? Yes, if you assumed ALTTP came before AOL you could make that inference, but actual in game or manual evidence from LOZ or AOL doesn't say anything about it.

If the manual art is any indication, everyone but Impa (or maybe she does too, can't remember) has ROUND EARS.

I don't believe it indicates anything. Inferring from manual art is pretty sketchy as we really don't know all of the meaning and intent behind it. I don't believe that Impa and anyone else in those old pictures indicates that they were not Hylian. It is very possible that the creators at that time 20 some years ago didn't think about that detail. In fact, was the term Hylian even used or described at that time of having pointy ears?

How is this a problem? Remember in OOT that before the king unified this country, there was a great war. It sounds to me like pre-OOT was an age of chaos (Divided races can very likely cause massive conflicts) - which fits perfectly with LOZ/AOL coming before it.

Except LOZ/AOL Hyrule isn't rife with war (Take out Ganon, and everyone's peaceful) and according to Impa, long ago Hyrule was "one country" ruled by a king who had the Triforce. Doesn't work.

Yes, that war with Ganon had ended, but peace had not settled in. I am not saying that the war with Ganon is the war talked about in OOT.

Yes, at the beginning of the AOL backstory it is one country. At the end of AOL, hyrule is still chaotic (Another war is likely). The environment post-AOL and pre-OOT fit together (as both are described as unpeaceful and divided).

and it seems that the origins of the Triforce, hell, even the existence of the Triforce of Courage, have been lost to time.

Do you mean from AOL to OOT? Maybe the common folk didn't know where it was, but the Royal family knew exactly where it was in OOT. The ToT was built to protect the entrance, so the knowledge of where it was would not have been lost between AOL and OOT.

No, from wherever to AOL.

How was it lost, then? The ToP and ToW were present and held by the royal family. I guess the ToC knowledge was lost, as know one could read the scroll at that time, but Impa knew that the key to uniting Triforce was in there. Even if it was lost, how does this conflict with putting LOZ/AOL before OOT?

[Average Gamer]

Could you give me the source or at least tell me the exact words of the interview? It may have been that he was talking about what they intended back then, not where they would be placed now.

That was mentioned in an interview with Eiji Aonuma in the Nintendo Power ten year anniversary of OoT issue. It should be noted that he was talking about Nintendo's intentions eleven years ago, and according to Raien and Impossible quotes in brackets [] are put in after an interview by the interviewer (in other words, the "AoL is after OoT" statement was put in by the interviewer and wasn't said by Aonuma).

Yes, at the beginning of the AOL backstory it is one country. At the end of AOL, hyrule is still chaotic (Another war is likely). The environment post-AOL and pre-OOT fit together (as both are described as unpeaceful and divided).

The AoL chaos just seems to have been caused by Ganon's minions sticking around and Hyrule having been owned too hard by Ganon in LoZ to rebuild properly. After Link assembles the Triforce, both of those issues are presumably taken care of.

[Showsni]

I already mentioned AoL's towns. They're kind've shabby, but I'm willing to excuse that to inferiority of the engine

As for magic, it's being cast and/or taught by human wizards and are pretty paltry, or it's ancient magic from a long ass time ago that Link is causing to awaken in accordance with a prophetic spell. Sleeping Zelda and all.

There's almost no true-blooded Hylians though. Zelda's and Link's ears are both round, that's pretty much always been the indicator for the entire country at large.

Link's ears are pointed, in artwork and in game:



Zelda's look pretty pointed, too.


And whilst they're noncanon, secondary material based on AoL also has Link and Zelda with pointed ears




So I've no idea where you're getting that from.

Magic is known by at least three people per town; can you even find three unimportant NPCs in OoT who use magic? Can you find any NPCs in OoT that use magic? And whilst it's noncanon, again the secondary materials show Hyrule is rich in magic during LoZ/AoL times. (The magic contest cartoon episode, for example.)

Hylian blood is a lor stronger in ALttP, LoZ and AoL than it is in OoT.

[Sir Turtlelot]

Personally, I've always thought the Sleeping Zelda story should take place early in the timeline.

And I agree with Showsni, that AoL does have more magic users in it than OoT.

[Person]

Aonuma certainly was talking about his intentions during development of OoT, but nothing indicates that the post-OoT placement has changed. The OoT-as-SW idea was retconned out by new games, as was the Sleeping Zelda-is-the-first. If anything, it seems like Nintendo is disregarding the NES games entirely. OoT was the last time they tried seriously to link their plots with another game. Meanwhile, OoT and ALttP get continuity nods out the wazoo.

[MikePetersSucks]

The ears of Link, Zelda, and Impa actually do have points in the LoZ/AoL art, but they're distinctly less pointy than they are in the AlttP, OoT, etc. concept art. Hylian blood does seem to have basically faded away by the time of LoZ/AoL and possibly even during the Great King's reign, judging from his ears.

Bah, and Showsni's visual aids. My memory is awful. Still, their pointiness is pretty dwarfed, and according the TWW, the level of pointiness comparable to LOZ/AOL apparently isn't enough.

And LOZ/AOL Hyrule is still full of round ears, regardless.

Yes, I agree that ALTTP was a originally designed to be a prequel. However, the back of the boxes and the creator quotes indicating that it was a prequel are old and are really the only thing that causes the "first generation sleeping zelda story" to be retconned as was originally told. Normally, I would consider newer intent to possibly retcon certain aspects of older games. However, when they made this intent, they are were just trying to make a connection between the games without thinking about keeping things consistent. Don't forget that OOT was supposed to be the seal war at the time ALTTP was intended to be a prequel to LOZ/AOL. Newer game evidence retconned OOT's seal war intention because Eiji Anouma took the timeline in a new direction. The fact that he is taking it in a new direction makes me think that game evidence from LOZ/AOL takes priority over old creator quotes and box text (Before Anouma took the timeline more seriously).

While I agree with your basic argument that such old intent can be retconned, nothing actually DOES threaten LTTP's placement except for fan theories, so for the sake of consistency, we should assume LTTP's placement hasn't been retconned until told otherwise. Nothing makes LTTP-LOZ-AOL possible in the same manner as "OOT = Seal War."

I don't see how it is much rarer in than in any other game. Could you provide examples? What ancient magic was reawakened in AOL? As far as sleeping Zelda is concerned, the only thing needed was the whole Triforce.

The greater magic I was referring to was the stuff put in place by the Great King. The Triforce mark, the spell to choose and heir, everything involving the temples, etc. As opposed to say, turning into a fairy, jumping high, and throwing fireballs, which is significantly less powerful than commanding cyclones, shooting arrows of pure light, fire, or ice, outright teleportation, commanding the world through song...you know where I'm going with this.

Yes, that war with Ganon had ended, but peace had not settled in. I am not saying that the war with Ganon is the war talked about in OOT.

Yes, at the beginning of the AOL backstory it is one country. At the end of AOL, hyrule is still chaotic (Another war is likely). The environment post-AOL and pre-OOT fit together (as both are described as unpeaceful and divided).

The only ones disturbing the peace are Ganon's cult and minions, as opposed to Hylians, Gorons, Zoras, Gerudo, and whoever else fighting with each other on suspicions over who had the Triforce, which was supposed to be ironic because during these wars the Triforce is supposed to be in the Sacred Realm. The point of that war for the narrative is lost when you say, "Oh, the Hyrulian family had it the whole time give or take the ToC."

How was it lost, then? The ToP and ToW were present and held by the royal family. I guess the ToC knowledge was lost, as know one could read the scroll at that time, but Impa knew that the key to uniting Triforce was in there. Even if it was lost, how does this conflict with putting LOZ/AOL before OOT?

How do you go from having two Triforce pieces, with the majority of people thinking they're the ONLY two pieces, and aren't so much divine relics but just powerful magic/alien floppy disks, with the Triforce of Courage being a well-guarded secret and the Sacred Realm completely unknown, to "The Triforce is a triune divine essence of the Gods that was laid in the Sacred Realm at the beginning of time and whoever claims the entire set gets omnipotent power" along with an implication that the Sacred Realm hasn't been disturbed?

Losing information is one thing, but gaining information out of freaking nowhere is pretty silly.

Hylian blood is a lor stronger in ALttP, LoZ and AoL than it is in OoT.

Not according to LTTP itself. Besides, an abundance of paltry magic doesn't make up for the complete loss of a few people with high magic. None of those AOL npcs are, say, Sages, for example.

[Showsni]

Not according to LTTP itself. Besides, an abundance of paltry magic doesn't make up for the complete loss of a few people with high magic. None of those AOL npcs are, say, Sages, for example.

Not according to the text of ALttP, but according to what we're shown it's quite different. People tell us in ALttP that Hylian blood is waning, but we don't see much real evidence of it. We're told everyone in OoT is a Hylian, but other than pointy ears we see no evidence of it. I hold that the sources of those quotes are simply wrong; that Hylian blood is stronger during ALttP than in OoT. How else can you explain Sahasralah using telepathy with ease, Fortune Tellers everywhere being able to predict your slightest move, and so on, whilst in OoT "I've never heard them" (paraphrased 'cause I can't be bothered to look it up)?

Also, (are we drifting into the realms of fanfiction? maybe a little) I'd call the wise men of each town in AoL Sages. "Each town has a wise man" we're told; coincidence that the same term is used for a Sage in ALttP? AoL has the Sage of Saria, the Sage of Rauru, the Sage of Ruto, Nabooru, Darunia, Mido, Kasuto, and let's not forget Impa and Zelda.

[Masamune]

An interesting thought is that maybe LoZ doesn't show a wasteland, but rather a pre-Hyrule. We don't see any example that there ever WAS a kingdom there after all (though you can blame that on them not planning ahead and graphical limitations). Maybe there's nothing there in AoL because there never was anything there. It just hadn't been established yet.

[Average Gamer]

I hold that the sources of those quotes are simply wrong; that Hylian blood is stronger during ALttP than in OoT.

I sincerely doubt that. The Hylians (especially the Maidens) should at least know that their blood is thinning.

How else can you explain Sahasralah using telepathy with ease,

Sage bloodline. Also, he needs to rely on those stones most of the time.

Fortune Tellers everywhere being able to predict your slightest move,

Fanadi could do the same thing in TP, and those Fortune Tellers are a bit of a gameplay mechanic, like how the locations of the dungeons show up on your map when Link has no clue where to look.

Also, (are we drifting into the realms of fanfiction? maybe a little) I'd call the wise men of each town in AoL Sages. "Each town has a wise man" we're told; coincidence that the same term is used for a Sage in ALttP?

I recall the AlttP Sages actually being called Sages in the Japanese version of ALttP, not wise men. Also, if they're just sitting around in towns and not doing anything critical, then I doubt that the AoL wise men are that important.

[bjamez7573]

That was mentioned in an interview with Eiji Aonuma in the Nintendo Power ten year anniversary of OoT issue. It should be noted that he was talking about Nintendo's intentions eleven years ago, and according to Raien and Impossible quotes in brackets [] are put in after an interview by the interviewer (in other words, the "AoL is after OoT" statement was put in by the interviewer and wasn't said by Aonuma).

That's the one I thought you were thinking of. Based on what he said, I don't think he was reaffirming any placement of LOZ/AOL after OOT

Aonuma certainly was talking about his intentions during development of OoT, but nothing indicates that the post-OoT placement has changed. The OoT-as-SW idea was retconned out by new games, as was the Sleeping Zelda-is-the-first. If anything, it seems like Nintendo is disregarding the NES games entirely. OoT was the last time they tried seriously to link their plots with another game. Meanwhile, OoT and ALttP get continuity nods out the wazoo.

The only reason newer games retcon the Sleeping Zelda theory is because of the creator intent (evidence not from the games themselves) of ALTTP being the NES games' prequel (and ALTTP has to come after OOT, as the bloodline of the Hylians is thinning). If you retcon that instead, and put the NES games after TMC and before OOT, the Sleeping Zelda story stays intact without any real contradiction with any game or manual evidence

nothing actually DOES threaten LTTP's placement except for fan theories,

Yes, the Sleeping Zelda story as originally told and intended DOES threaten LTTP's placement as the NES games' prequel.

The AoL chaos just seems to have been caused by Ganon's minions sticking around and Hyrule having been owned too hard by Ganon in LoZ to rebuild properly. After Link assembles the Triforce, both of those issues are presumably taken care of.

The only ones disturbing the peace are Ganon's cult and minions, as opposed to Hylians, Gorons, Zoras, Gerudo, and whoever else fighting with each other on suspicions over who had the Triforce, which was supposed to be ironic because during these wars the Triforce is supposed to be in the Sacred Realm. The point of that war for the narrative is lost when you say, "Oh, the Hyrulian family had it the whole time give or take the ToC."

Defeating Ganon is not necessarily the only answer to achieving peace. Although Hyrule is described a peaceful before Ganon attacked, the World was already in an age of chaos. Nothing is said that the peace in Hyrule was restored (other things could have caused unrest in Hyrule after Ganon and his minions were defeated). Yes, at the end of AOL, Zelda mentions that Link saved Hyrule. However, this does not mean peace has set in (at the end of ALTTP, Link has saved Hyrule, but in the LA manual, the kingdom is still mentioned as unpeaceful).

A long, long time ago the World was in an age of Chaos..............One day, an evil army attacked this peaceful little kingdom and stole the Triforce of Power.

Though you fulfilled the Hyrulian prophecy of the Legendary Hero and destroyed the evil tyrant Ganon, the land of Hyrule enjoyed only a precarious peace.

Here is my scenario:

Link has all 3 Triforce pieces at the end of AOL, and Hyrule is still in chaos. Link and the Royal Family decide it is best to seal the Triforce back in the Sacred Realm and guard it by building the Temple of Time. They do this because they knew the danger of keeping the Triforce in the Royal Family...Someone might steal it (like Ganon did).

Since Hyrule is in Chaos, it is likely the different races have been fighting for power and war breaks out (probably because of the Triforce) just before OOT. It is the current King of OOT that unites them - and therefore there is peace in the land, the Triforce is protected by Temple of Time - which is built by ancient sages.

This kind of scenario is certainly possible - there is no confirmed evidence that this cannot be the case - therefore there is no contradiction. Again, I am not using this as evidence for its placement.

Bah, and Showsni's visual aids. My memory is awful. Still, their pointiness is pretty dwarfed, and according the TWW, the level of pointiness comparable to LOZ/AOL apparently isn't enough.

Could you please show evidence other than manual art? I don't think that the creators, more specifically the graphic artists who drew those pictures, were thinking about level of pointiness and how it shows whether they are Hylian or not. They are shown as pointy. Although WW shows the difference between hylians and non-hylians, there is no reference to level of pointiness that would somehow make those shown in the LOZ/AOL manual art to be non-Hylians.

And LOZ/AOL Hyrule is still full of round ears, regardless.

How are you inferring this?

How do you go from having two Triforce pieces, with the majority of people thinking they're the ONLY two pieces, and aren't so much divine relics but just powerful magic/alien floppy disks, with the Triforce of Courage being a well-guarded secret and the Sacred Realm completely unknown, to "The Triforce is a triune divine essence of the Gods that was laid in the Sacred Realm at the beginning of time and whoever claims the entire set gets omnipotent power" along with an implication that the Sacred Realm hasn't been disturbed?

Losing information is one thing, but gaining information out of freaking nowhere is pretty silly.

We don't really know what information they knew. It doesn't say that the majority of people knew only two pieces, it could be that they knew the ToC existed, only that they didn't know where it was. It is very possible that the people knew the story of the Triforce and its origins. Also, what evidence in OOT implies that the Sacred Realm wasn't disturbed before OOT? The above statement is an explanation to Link about where the Triforce came from and what power it possessed - because Link didn't understand that before. I don't see any implication that it was showing the sacred realm possibly being invaded for the first time.

Not according to LTTP itself. Besides, an abundance of paltry magic doesn't make up for the complete loss of a few people with high magic. None of those AOL npcs are, say, Sages, for example.

How is the magic of normal people in AOL any more paltry than OOT? In OOT there aren't many examples of people using magic, either.

[Average Gamer]

Defeating Ganon is not necessarily the only answer to achieving peace.

That's why Link gathered the Triforce in AoL and got rid of the rest of Ganon's minions while otherwise fixing Hyrule.

Although Hyrule is described a peaceful before Ganon attacked, the World was already in an age of chaos.

The English manuals really aren't reliable. You should look at the Japanese ones instead.

A very long time ago, the world was still in an age of confusion.

It's not an age of chaos. Also, I'm pretty sure everyone would be thankful toward Link, savior of the land, wielder of the Triforce, and second Great King. A war's not going to start anytime soon.

Nothing is said that the peace in Hyrule was restored (other things could have caused unrest in Hyrule after Ganon and his minions were defeated).

Make the Triforce complete and thus save the princess.

And, bring back the peaceful Hyrule.

Seeing as how Link gets the entire Triforce in the ending, he presumably brings back the peaceful Hyrule.

Edited by Average Gamer, 24 June 2009 - 09:17 PM.

[bjamez7573]

Average Gamer, I see your point that Link likely achieved peace post-AOL and how Ganon (and his minions) was the only cause of it. Although, Link had the Triforce in ALTTP, defeated Ganon and minions, and Hyrule's peace was short-lived, at least according to the Japanese LA manual. In other words, even if there was peace post-AOL, it doesn't necessarily mean it
last forever until OOT. It is still possible for there to have been a division and war pre-OOT.

[Average Gamer]

Average Gamer, I see your point that Link likely achieved peace post-AOL and how Ganon (and his minions) was the only cause of it. Although, Link had the Triforce in ALTTP, defeated Ganon and minions, and Hyrule's peace was short-lived, at least according to the Japanese LA manual.

You posted a link from the English LA manual, not the Japanese one.

The Japanese LA manual says this:

You, who regained the peace of Hyrule from the demonic hands of the king of evil, Ganon, had not enjoyed the achieved tranquility for too long, and had embarked on a journey of training in preparation for new disasters.

Link was too high-strung and paranoid after his ALttP journey, which is why he began training for new potential disasters. The peace wasn't short-lived.

Edited by Average Gamer, 25 June 2009 - 04:00 AM.

[Person]

I have a question, then. Two games give us an origin for Ganon, but you place neither FSA nor OoT before LoZ, which is strange given the ALttP manual gives an origin for Ganon as well. So Ganon just shows up out of nowhere and then in OoT is trusted by the king? That seems backwards to me. The theory also relies on a bunch of fanfiction to bridge the gap between AoL and OoT. There is no evidence in OoT to suggest that the Sacred Realm has ever been opened before, and its intended placement was first in the timeline. Of course new games like TMC can come before it, but old games cannot.

[Masamune]

His timeline would suggest, to me, that Ganon is perhaps a different entity than Ganondorf. Consequently, three different Ganondorf Dragmires have been corrupted at different times in Hyrule's history and been corrupted by Ganon. This might seem farfetched, but... well, Zelda... Link... Impa... Tingle?

Showsni, you need to put FPTRRL in your timeline. It would work best at the beginning or end of your timeline.

[Erimgard]

Well I believe the intent is for there to be some degree of separation between Ganondorf and Ganon, seeing as the original telling of the Seal War states that the "King of Evil Ganon was born" when Ganondorf touched the Triforce.