A Question for Skeptics of Religion

All right, answer me this: Why is Buddhism listed in the five major world religions if it's not one?

Because they're wrong. They're the public and they're morons.* Misconceptions about that kind of thing are common. Also, some groups have a Buddhist religion. So, come religions are Buddhist, but Buddhism itself is not a religion, just as some religions, like, say christianity, are dualist, but not all dualists believe in god (although somewhere in the high-nintes percentile probably do).

*This bit really doesn't have to do with what I'm saying, I'm just commenting on the fact that people can be really stupid sometimes.

So your saying your opinion on what counts as a religion carries more weight than decades' worth of religious scholars, philosophers, and analysts, whose sole job was to analyze these things, and nearly all of whom came to the conclusion that Buddhism was a religion?

No. I'm saying that the opinion of those people, which disagrees somewhat on this, carries more weight than a Google search. It's open to debate, but "more people agree" doesn't count.

Ok, let's see where different bookstores put their Buddhism books, shall we?

Amazon-Religion

Barnes&Noble-Religion

Borders-Religion

I think I'm noticing a trend...

A bookstore's catagorizing method isn't a source, Steve. On the same shelf is "Metaphysics," which, last I checked, wasn't a religion either.

Religion: A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

Source: http://dictionary.re...arch?q=religion

Does Buddhism not match that definition?

Yes, Alak, but the fact remains that you're about the only person who doesn't consider Buddhism a religion.

It's because Buddhism is a religion. The founding of Buddhism by Siddharta (spelling) was in it's very nature philisophical, because he was challenging long-held religious and social beliefs in India.

Because some people prefer to see Buddhism as a philisophical movement (which is a very popular Western movement) it denies at the very heart that Buddhism is not about philosophy primarily, but is about spiritual growth. The three Refuges which I mentioned before are not an eventual progression in some more dogmatic forms fo Buddhism, but are listed in the sayings of the Buddha himself, though you can debate about whether or not he really said those things. It holds that Buddhists have believed that way ever since its creation.

Buddhism isn't simply a way you live your life, or good habits to keep. It is a religion, it is a system of beliefs and practices. It's just different than most Western religions.

In the same way, I can look to writings in the Old and New Testaments of the Christian Bible and see certain books that are completely philosopical in nature. For example: Job, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, many of the sayings of Jesus, and many of the letters written by Paul, the letter to the Hebrews, James, the letters of John.

Explain to me why one is a religion and one is a philosophy and that they are in fact mutually exclusive.

I still hold that philosophy is a more accurate term. There are Buddhist religions, and the majority of Buddhists are belonging to them, but Buddhism itself is philosophical because of it's religious flexibility. However, it's just a matter of wording, in the end, and I'll let it go.

I haven't read any posts yet, so I'll answer the question in an unbiased way before I catch up with the discussion.

Originally posted by Vorpal@Sep 19 2004, 01:14 PM
So, I guess these are my questions:
I noticed in many of the introductions in this forum had people who were anti-religion are admitedtly against Christianity. Is the antimosity toward Christianity alone, or toward religion as a whole? And whatever that is, what is your defintion (because there always seems to be a problem with how different people define abstract ideas) of Christianity or religion, and why the animosity?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, I too used to despise Christianity. Until I became a Christian, anyway. Part of the problem (in my opinion) was that people never talked about their faith outside church. It seemed to me like people went to this place on Sunday, did some secret stuff, and came out. In fact, it seemed a bit like an exclusivist group.

The reason I thought this way is that my hometown didn't have many evangelical churches. The liturgical ones (like Lutherans, Episcopalians, Catholics) don't really proseltyze, which I think is a bad thing. Evangelicals, on the other hand, are very open about Christianity, which is why I'm a Baptist.

I've noticed that many people who hate Christianity don't really understand it that well. In my opinion, hatred of Christianity is caused by lack of knowledge about it. Thus I think that if more Christians were open about their faith, like the evangelicals, we would be more well liked.

I am completely surrounded by Catholic people, and of course, I don't hate them, because otherwise I would hate my parents, all my relatives and my friends. The only thing that I don't like is that they are so close minded that they don't even dare to question if what the priest says is correct or not.

Buddhism noun [U] an Asian religion based on the teaching of Gautama Siddharta.

Oxford's dictionary pwns them all.

ENOUGH! It's over! I surrender! You win!

Anything that pursue's some form of wisdom could be called a "philosophy". All religions (that I know of) are philosophies, but not all philosophies are religions.

Thank you so much for your response and honesty! This was absolutely an awesome response! (Not to say that others' weren't)

Originally posted by arunma@Sep 19 2004, 05:43 PM
Actually, I too used to despise Christianity.  Until I became a Christian, anyway.  Part of the problem (in my opinion) was that people never talked about their faith outside church.  It seemed to me like people went to this place on Sunday, did some secret stuff, and came out.  In fact, it seemed a bit like an exclusivist group.

It's funny to me that you put it that way... Because that has always been a problem with Christianity. Ever since it was started, certain Roman pagans thought that exact same thing. Some called Christians "haters of mankind" (which they also called Jews for centuries before hand... only a few though, don't get me wrong) because of their exculsivisity. Rumors would go around that Christians ate dead carcasses and drank blood (Lord's Supper) and that they'd sacrifice children. Christians also had baptism cerimonies, which was similar to mystery cults of the time, which were also not trusted by the majority of the Roman populace.

Heh, guess a little history there for you.

The reason I thought this way is that my hometown didn't have many evangelical churches.  The liturgical ones (like Lutherans, Episcopalians, Catholics) don't really proseltyze, which I think is a bad thing.  Evangelicals, on the other hand, are very open about Christianity, which is why I'm a Baptist.

I agree with what you say about proseltyzing. Though, I don't think all Lutherans, Episcos or Catholics are really "secret" about their religion... they just don't knock on doors as much about it, but I've had good discussions on religious matters with each. But I do understand what you're saying.

But I have a question here for you: Was Christian proseltyzing something that you hated about Christianity before? I know this is a big thing for people who hate Christians. "How dare they impose their religion on me or someone else!" But it's not the same thing from the Christian standpoint, is it? It's something that Jesus told Christians to do, and it's not forcing it on somebody, it's bringing attention to someone what you believe the truth is.

I've noticed that many people who hate Christianity don't really understand it that well.  In my opinion, hatred of Christianity is caused by lack of knowledge about it.  Thus I think that if more Christians were open about their faith, like the evangelicals, we would be more well liked.

I agree that most of it is ignorance. They say that certain things are in the Bible without ever reading any of it. They pull certain people who claim to be Christians who are also blatantly racist or hateful (which are things Christians can't be according to the Bible) and they choose those bad examples to color what they believe all Christians are.

[quote]Originally posted by Vorpal+-->

QUOTE(Vorpal)

But I have a question here for you: Was Christian proseltyzing something that you hated about Christianity before? I know this is a big thing for people who hate Christians. "How dare they impose their religion on me or someone else!" But it's not the same thing from the Christian standpoint, is it? It's something that Jesus told Christians to do, and it's not forcing it on somebody, it's bringing attention to someone what you believe the truth is.[/b][/quote]

Nah, I never really minded proseltyzers. The few people who stopped to talk were very friendly and polite, and omitted stuff like "repent or burn!" Honestly, I wish they would have stayed and talked longer.

#47 Doopliss

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 08:31 PM

Originally posted by Alakhriveion@Sep 19 2004, 06:44 PM
ENOUGH!  It's over!  I surrender!  You win!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That means that you agree, or that you like the Oxford dictionaries?

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#48 Guest_Vorpal_*

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 08:32 PM

Well... yeah, the fact that Christians had to worship in secret a lot after the persecutions of Nero and others beginning in the 60s AD, might have something to do with it... but that's not to say it's completely a Christian's fault if someone misunderstands and misjudges what Christianity really is... cause as far as I know, most churches are open about what they do, Catholics and Lutherans have open services, and they too will be very friendly (at least most of them) if you were to talk to them about it.

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#49 arunma

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 08:40 PM

True. But many churches don't evangelize as often as they should.

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#50 Guest_Vorpal_*

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 08:42 PM

I completely agree.

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#51 SteveT

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 08:43 PM

So long as they do it tastefully.

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#52 arunma

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 08:48 PM

I've rarely met evangelists who weren't tasteful.

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#53 Coltxdoom

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 08:50 PM

Originally posted by arunma@Sep 19 2004, 07:48 PM
I've rarely met evangelists who weren't tasteful.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*cough* well I know many evangelists that are VERY untasteful. And they go to my Christian College. *cough..stabs random pillow*

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#54 arunma

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 08:56 PM

Maybe that's the problem? Why are evangelists wasting time on a Christian College Campus? Their services are much needed at atheist universities, not private colleges.

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#55 SteveT

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 08:56 PM

I've rarely met evangelists who weren't tasteful.

I sure have. When I worked at Wendy's, a guy came through the drive-thru, and spent about 5 minutes trying to get me to go to the Believer's Chapel during the middle of a lunch rush. Slightly inconsiderate to both the business and everyone waiting for their food, I would say. And he wasn't satisfied when I told him I was already a member of a church.

Then there was this time my parents accompanied the Church youth group to a Mormon pageant on Joseph Smith and the origins of Mormonism (for educational purposes; we Presbyterians are big on Christian Education). As they left this pageant, they, and the other people who came to watch were greeted by a mob whose proficiency in English was apparently limited to "You're going to Hell."

Then of course there's those people who leave Chik tracts in the public restrooms for people to find...

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#56 arunma

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 08:57 PM

Yeah, but those aren't evangelists. They're stupid people.

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#57 SteveT

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 08:58 PM

The middle ones certainly were, I'll concede. But they did go there thinking they'd save some souls, and that does make them evangelists.

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#58 Coltxdoom

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 09:01 PM

yes, many of these evangalists from my christian school will turn out to be over-evangalistic preachers who I will hit over the head with a shovel in the future. *nod*

I SHOULD tell you about this speaker that came to speak at our REQUIRED chapel...

even my dad thought he was out there. I'm beginning to think that these Christians are cuckoo for cocopuffs...one fry short of a happy meal...CRAZY!

Instead of reinforcing my Christianity, i'm beginning to want to pull away..

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#59 arunma

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 09:07 PM

Originally posted by Coltxdoom@Sep 19 2004, 09:01 PM
Instead of reinforcing my Christianity, i'm beginning to want to pull away..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Uh, don't do that.

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#60 SteveT

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 09:08 PM

That's what people like Jack Chik do...push people away from Christianity.

Which is why I'm generally very skeptical about evangelists, because a lot of them give people the wrong idea about Christianity.

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