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Is the Bible anti-semitic?

Started by arunma , Sep 18 2004 04:55 PM

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#1 arunma

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 04:55 PM

Well, everyone's heard about how the Passion might or might not be anti-semitic. But how about the book based on the movie: the Bible itself (Old and New Testaments included). Is the Bible anti-semitic?

Some people say yes. After all, the Biblical verse "All the people answered, 'Let his blood be on us and on our children!'" (Matthew 27:25) has been used to justify plenty of Jew-slaughters. In the Gospels, the word "Judeans" is translated "the Jews" in almost every version. And let's not forget the Old Testament, which constantly says "again Israel did evil in the eyes of Yahweh."

On the other hand, we must consider that the Bible is an exclusively Jewish work (except for the Gospel of Luke). And Jews aren't afraid to tell the whole truth about their history, including the parts where many of them behaved badly. Therefore, one could argue that it's illogical to turn Jewish self-criticism into anti-semitism.

What does everyone else think?

#2 Coltxdoom

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 04:59 PM

No, how could it be?

The Jews are God's chosen ones..

#3 SteveT

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 06:07 PM

I think that anyone who thinks the Jews killed Christ entirely missed the point of the entire Bible.

#4 Coltxdoom

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 06:12 PM

Originally posted by SteveT@Sep 18 2004, 05:07 PM
I think that anyone who thinks the Jews killed Christ entirely missed the point of the entire Bible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I'll say...

#5 Guest_Dirk Amoeba_*

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 06:48 PM

The Jews wrote every single book in the Bible, unless I'm forgetting something.

#6 SteveT

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 06:49 PM

There was also the stuff the Christians wrote.

#7 arunma

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 07:44 PM

Originally posted by Dirk Amoeba@Sep 18 2004, 06:48 PM
The Jews wrote every single book in the Bible, unless I'm forgetting something.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well...to be fair, Luke was probably a Gentile. But your point stands; every other book in the New Testament (and of course the Old Testament as well) was written by a Jew.

Of course I don't think the Bible is anti-semitic, but I tried to present both points of view so that we could have some kind of debate. For once I was hoping to see some nonbelievers around!

In any case, you're right that people who think the Bible is anti-semitic have missed the point completely. They've also forgotten that Jews are good at self-criticism, which is why the Bible doesn't make any apologies about highlighting the Jewish peoples' bad deeds (Golden Calf, idolatry, etc.) while being humble about the good deeds (accepting Jesus, getting Gentiles into the act, and other stuff).

I would say that for the most part, Christians get the message. One song written waaaay back (which we used in my church today) says "Now hail the strength of Israel’s might, and crown Him Lord of all," so obviously people weren't worried about making the Jewish connection even back then.

Of course, as long as there are newborn babies, there will be no short supply of idiots. That's why some people like to mess with the Jews.

#8 Korhend

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 09:12 PM

Originally posted by Coltxdoom@Sep 18 2004, 06:12 PM
I'll say...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or their histor of execution lessons.

#9 GraniteJJ

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 10:23 PM

Originally posted by SteveT@Sep 18 2004, 07:07 PM
I think that anyone who thinks the Jews killed Christ entirely missed the point of the entire Bible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


But Jews did kill Jesus. They just did it for a more divine purpose that they didn't understand at the time.

I mean, how can anyone BLAME the Jews for turning on Jesus and allowing the Romans to crucify him. Anyone who helped Jesus die helped him die for everyone's sins. The people who got Jesus dead ensured you guys would get your ticket into heaven.

That's why I don't get people dissing Judas. He betrayed Jesus, but it filled a divine purpose in the grand scheme of things. Surely the good must outweigh the bad...

#10 Alakhriveion

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 10:31 PM

But Jews did kill Jesus.

Go on with that. Last I checked, Jesus was killed by the Romans.

#11 arunma

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 10:32 PM

True...but the only reason Jews killed Jesus is because everyone in Jerusalem was Jewish.

So anti-semitic dudes could just as well say that humans killed Jesus, therefore humans are the enemy of God.

But I do see your point.

#12 Alakhriveion

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 10:33 PM

Well, the soldiers sure wern't. First, the Romans would never have allowed it, second, the resistance would have killed the collaborators.

#13 arunma

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 10:36 PM

Originally posted by Alakhriveion@Sep 18 2004, 10:33 PM
Well, the soldiers sure wern't.  First, the Romans would never have allowed it, second, the resistance would have killed the collaborators.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, many Roman soldiers were Jews who just signed up with the local military. The Romans carried out the actual execution, but the Jews* are the ones who demanded it.

*The Greek word Judaoi should be translated "Judeans." But for some reason, it's rendered "Jews."

#14 Alakhriveion

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 10:40 PM

Not all Judeans were Jews, but, as is standard in all resistance movements, you kill collaborators first, before anything else. Check Iraq. Judea was no exception. Now, considering that Barabas (?) was arresting for involvment in an attack on actual Roman Soldiers, I doubt that there was much if any of a militia left. Second, crucifiction was reserved for enemies of the state, and a militia wouldn't be assigned such a talk. There was a legion in Judea to keep down the rebels, and they would have handled it.

#15 arunma

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 10:47 PM

I know that crucifixion was reserved for enemies of the state. But the Jews (again a mistranslation, actually referring mostly to the Kohanim) demanded that Jesus be killed for calling himself the Messiah, and for making himself equal to God.

As for Barrabas, it just says that he was involved in an uprising. I'm not sure if he actually attacked Roman soldiers, or if he did something else.

#16 GraniteJJ

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 11:06 PM

Originally posted by Alakhriveion@Sep 18 2004, 11:31 PM
Go on with that.  Last I checked, Jesus was killed by the Romans.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Fine. If you want it that way, then praise the Romans for helping to bring salvation to Christians.

I wasn't dissing the Jews by saying they insisted on the death of Christ. Did you even read the rest of my post?

#17 arunma

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 11:29 PM

Let's remember that Jews killed Jesus, not the Jews. If you want to blame a few individual Jews (i.e. the Kohanim), that's fine. But don't blame all the Jews all over the world for the actions of twenty people. Let's also remember that Jews traveled with Jesus, were healed by him, and led his church after his ascention.

And the Jews invented bagels. If you want to wail on bagel makers, you'll have to go through me first.

Actually, there is one Jew I hate: Lou Gerstner.

#18 GraniteJJ

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 11:31 PM

Originally posted by arunma@Sep 19 2004, 12:29 AM
Let's remember that Jews killed Jesus, not the Jews.  If you want to blame a few individual Jews (i.e. the Kohanim), that's fine.  But don't blame all the Jews all over the world for the actions of twenty people.  Let's also remember that Jews traveled with Jesus, were healed by him, and led his church after his ascention.

And the Jews invented bagels.  If you want to wail on bagel makers, you'll have to go through me first.

Actually, there is one Jew I hate: Lou Gerstner.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I'm saying the Jews should be praised for delivering you Christians salvation on a silver platter by involving themselves in the death of Christ. That's not a bad thing.

The Jews would have granted every single good Christian eternal life.

Why is that bad?

#19 arunma

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 11:34 PM

I wouldn't exactly thank the Kohanim for killing Jesus, because their intentions were bad. You could also thank Judas for betraying Jesus, but the Gospels are pretty clear that Judas was a servant of Satan when he was doing the deed.

#20 GraniteJJ

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 11:38 PM

Originally posted by arunma@Sep 19 2004, 12:34 AM
I wouldn't exactly thank the Kohanim for killing Jesus, because their intentions were bad.  You could also thank Judas for betraying Jesus, but the Gospels are pretty clear that Judas was a servant of Satan when he was doing the deed.

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But then, Satan was fulfilling Gods will, because God needed Jesus to die.

#21 arunma

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 11:39 PM

Yeah, but intent matters. If you kill God with the evil intent, and it happens to save humanity, you still don't get credit for it.

#22 GraniteJJ

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 11:40 PM

Originally posted by arunma@Sep 19 2004, 12:39 AM
Yeah, but intent matters.  If you kill God with the evil intent, and it happens to save humanity, you still don't get credit for it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Why not? He was going to die anyway. If Satan didn't do anything, then Jesus might not have died, then you'd never get eternal salvation.

#23 SteveT

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 11:42 PM

The whole thing makes more sense under the theory that Satan is, indeed, a servant of God.

A lot of things make more sense that way, really.

#24 GraniteJJ

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 11:44 PM

Originally posted by SteveT@Sep 19 2004, 12:42 AM
The whole thing makes more sense under the theory that Satan is, indeed, a servant of God.

A lot of things make more sense that way, really.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yeah, it seems that in a lot of Bible stories, Satan really does things that help humanity, because:

1) He is a moron
2) God uses him as a puppet
3) He somehow cares about humanity, but has a bad media spin on him...
4) He's...drunk 24/7.

#25 arunma

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 11:45 PM

[quote]Originally posted by SteveT+Sep 18 2004, 11:42 PM-->
QUOTE(SteveT @ Sep 18 2004, 11:42 PM)
The whole thing makes more sense under the theory that Satan is, indeed, a servant of God.

A lot of things make more sense that way, really.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/b][/quote]
This doesn't make sense when interpreted that way.

#26 SteveT

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 11:46 PM

No, I suppose it doesn't.

#27 GraniteJJ

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 11:51 PM

Which, of course, I don't believe in. Although it would make a good action movie.

#28 arunma

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Posted 18 September 2004 - 11:51 PM

That's why I say that Satan doesn't knowingly do God's will.

#29 Alakhriveion

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 09:05 AM

Well, how 'bout if Satan does God's will and Satan does Satan's will too? He can still love god and not want humanity to come any closer to him, as they might in Revelation. God wouldn't mind, because, hey, Satan saying "I'm going to destroy humanity now" is sorta like Cheney saying "We'll have to go through Afghanistan first."

#30 arunma

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Posted 19 September 2004 - 10:16 AM

OK....how about we get the topic on track.

Hey Alak and Granite, if you want to debate the other issue, why don't you split the thread? I'd be up for that too. But for now, I think we'll all agree that we should talk about whether or not the Bible is anti-Jewish.
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